Death Battle 6: Measured in TNT

[Traab]

Most game mechanics don't cross over well. Its why I frown upon it.

I mean, its not any different to use the game mechanics than to use comics or tv. We get to see them do something, calculate the numbers needed to achieve said feat, then say "This is the most impressive thing we see this character do." Admittedly in the case of ff7 at least, it provides some hilariously unbalanced results. "Cloud can canonically survive the sun exploding until it engulfs the portion of the planet he is standing on. Multiple times"

[Devonix]

I mean, its not any different to use the game mechanics than to use comics or tv. We get to see them do something, calculate the numbers needed to achieve said feat, then say "This is the most impressive thing we see this character do." Admittedly in the case of ff7 at least, it provides some hilariously unbalanced results. "Cloud can canonically survive the sun exploding until it engulfs the portion of the planet he is standing on. Multiple times"

But using it also means that a frog sticking his tongue out at frog a bunch of times can kill him.

The numbers in a comic aren't numbers in the same way. What does 500 hp translate to? What is HP?

Think Devil May Cry. In game the guns do pittling damage. In Narrative he can oneshot major demons with them.

[HolyDraconus]

I'm sure they could've figured out something, but yeah, it would've been a pain to do. Final Fantasy does not translate well. No turn based game does, really.

Overall, I don't actually have a problem with Link vs Cloud, mostly because the Cloud they used was significantly stronger than the Cloud I beat the game with. But I understand why people would be upset that they didn't use the strongest possible Cloud.

They didn't actually. Cloud canonically has ALL materia, as explained in Advent Children. Him using anything other than all isn't the correct Cloud.

[Forum Explorer]

They didn't actually. Cloud canonically has ALL materia, as explained in Advent Children. Him using anything other than all isn't the correct Cloud.

Considering that movie doesn't have Cloud use any materia, you're going to have to explain further.

[HolyDraconus]

Considering that movie doesn't have Cloud use any materia, you're going to have to explain further.

He didn't use any because it was stolen. His first fight with them he was caught out in the open, and they ambushed him. He had all materia in a chest. It was then stolen by the Remnants of Sephiroth, who then used some of it... sorta.(used...fused... the movie was weird). Even if you wanted to make the argument that it wasn't EVERY SINGLE PIECE EVER of materia, it still DWARFED what was shown in the Cloud v Link fight.

[Forum Explorer]

He didn't use any because it was stolen. His first fight with them he was caught out in the open, and they ambushed him. He had all materia in a chest. It was then stolen by the Remnants of Sephiroth, who then used some of it... sorta.(used...fused... the movie was weird). Even if you wanted to make the argument that it wasn't EVERY SINGLE PIECE EVER of materia, it still DWARFED what was shown in the Cloud v Link fight.

To be fair, they denied Cloud the Materia by giving him the best armor, but has no materia slots. And he does use Fire and Thunder in Dissidia so they gave him those ones. And considering he doesn't actually use any materia in the movie or fighting games, that kinda adds to the justification of setting it up in that way. So while he might own all the materia, he doesn't actually use it narratively. Which fits with his theme; he's the big warrior swordsmen. Magic is for women and old men and people with no faces.

Mind you, infinite counter attacks does fit with his theme, is significantly better, and is easy to translate narratively. Every time Link attacks, Cloud gets to attack back. While strongest armor is vague and doesn't translate well.

[Devonix]

To be fair, they denied Cloud the Materia by giving him the best armor, but has no materia slots. And he does use Fire and Thunder in Dissidia so they gave him those ones. And considering he doesn't actually use any materia in the movie or fighting games, that kinda adds to the justification of setting it up in that way. So while he might own all the materia, he doesn't actually use it narratively. Which fits with his theme; he's the big warrior swordsmen. Magic is for women and old men and people with no faces.

Mind you, infinite counter attacks does fit with his theme, is significantly better, and is easy to translate narratively. Every time Link attacks, Cloud gets to attack back. While strongest armor is vague and doesn't translate well.

To be fair a bunch of the best materia doesn't do anything in any setting outside of game mechanics. Think about stuff like 4cut. Deathblow. Long range. HP up. These are things that only work in a turn based rpg. The same way collecting hearts work in Zelda. They don't transfer.

Counter materia doesn't make sense or work in a deathbattle. Because the character is always countering simply by merit of fighting.

[Anteros]

To be fair, they denied Cloud the Materia by giving him the best armor, but has no materia slots. And he does use Fire and Thunder in Dissidia so they gave him those ones. And considering he doesn't actually use any materia in the movie or fighting games, that kinda adds to the justification of setting it up in that way. So while he might own all the materia, he doesn't actually use it narratively. Which fits with his theme; he's the big warrior swordsmen. Magic is for women and old men and people with no faces.

Mind you, infinite counter attacks does fit with his theme, is significantly better, and is easy to translate narratively. Every time Link attacks, Cloud gets to attack back. While strongest armor is vague and doesn't translate well.

And narratively Link isn't an invincible being with super strength behind each of his blows, but they still gave him those things.

[Rynjin]

And narratively Link isn't an invincible being with super strength behind each of his blows, but they still gave him those things.

That is...intensely debatable.

[HolyDraconus]

So the Venom blurp is up on Youtube (completely forgot about it so I didn't watch it early) and would you look at that, they cast him as a villain... a SPIDEY villain.

[Keltest]

So the Venom blurp is up on Youtube (completely forgot about it so I didn't watch it early) and would you look at that, they cast him as a villain... a SPIDEY villain.

I am shocked. Shocked I tell you.

[Rater202]

So the Venom blurp is up on Youtube (completely forgot about it so I didn't watch it early) and would you look at that, they cast him as a villain... a SPIDEY villain.

So, basically, they're going to ignore the vast majority of his history and probably screw him over.

[Traab]

So, basically, they're going to ignore the vast majority of his history and probably screw him over.

Well I mean, they covered his origin story and some of his various powers. You kinda HAVE to call him a spidey villain in that case as thats how he came about. The rest was mainly focused on his unusual skills like, I didnt know he could use empathy to make other symbiotes suicide. Or make people explode by going into them like overinflating a balloon I presume? But also his 360 degree vision, camo abilities, mighty morphin tendril power, and of course being spiderman only stronger. They are probably holding onto his major feats for later. This was just like a minute and a half to give a very brief look at him, explaining his full history is going to take longer.

[Rater202]

I'm tempted to go through and compile a list of things that Venom does, did, or can do as Eddie Alone, as the Symbiote Alone, as things the symbiote did with other hosts that there's no reason why it couldn't do with Eddie, that Us versions of the Symbiote that are explicitly the same as the main timeline version, things it should logically be able to do becuase all symbiotes can do them, and things it should be able to do but hasn't but has done this other thing that's super similar...

Basically, I'm tempted to treat Venom the way they treated Hal Jordon and cite things that would have affected the outcome if they'd taken it into consideration.

Off the top of my head, Venom: The End, a timeline depicting a hypothetical "final" story of the Main Venom, gives it the combined powers of Multiple Man, Elixir, Storm, Time Slip, Tempus, and Quicksilver all maximized to their logical extremes via being "remixed" by the combination of symbiote's natural genetic adaption and applying Elixr's biokenisis to itself.

It also genetically engineered multiple planets worse of "super-humanoids," humans enhanced with the DNA of Tardigrades and extremophilic bacteria, as well as Wolverine and Deadpool, to create superhumanly long-lived and hearty humans to serve as hosts for itself and it's dupes while waging war on a coalition of AI that was trying to wipe out all organic life in the universe and then turns the empty universe into a giant computer.

That's in addition to figuring out how to partially invert it's bio-lattice to create a burst of energy able to obliterate all matter within an area big enough to destroy a planet... The basics of which the 616-version of Venom figures out in Venom Volume 4 #27.

[Traab]

Crona blurb is up. From what im gathering there is still hope as in both cases they basically focused on origin, not on what sort of end game level feats they have pulled out. So hold hope that venom will get more than just his spidey villain level feats.

[SKarious]

Even without maximized comic book shenanigans, I'd still give this one to Venom over Crona.
Crona's parasite seems to be in her blood only, while Venom is bound to every molecule, ensuring quicker response and multiple points of contact.
Not to mention, Crona seems meek and hesitant. She'll probably try to resist her parasite. But Venom and Eddie are synchronized and work together.

[Rater202]

Crona isn't a "she."

Crona is... The dub refers to Crona with male pronouns but the original Japanese, especially in the manga, makes a point of never gendering Crona or revealing which, if either sex, they were born as. Crona is referred to exclusively by name or by geneder-neutral terms/pronouns.

So... They. The best pronoun to use is They.

[SKarious]

Oh, sorry. No offense meant. I don't really know anything about the anime or the characters within. Somehow managed to miss the fact W&B always referred to Crona by name or as "child".
I guess the character design reminded me of Sakura from Naruto.

[Rynjin]

It doesn't help that every dub of the series picks a different gender, I think.

But yeah, "they" is the best option. Partly because they're two people (Crona plus Ragnarok) on top of being completely gender ambiguous.

[tyckspoon]

To be fair a bunch of the best materia doesn't do anything in any setting outside of game mechanics. Think about stuff like 4cut. Deathblow. Long range. HP up. These are things that only work in a turn based rpg. The same way collecting hearts work in Zelda. They don't transfer.

Counter materia doesn't make sense or work in a deathbattle. Because the character is always countering simply by merit of fighting.

Quad-cut could just be a flurry attack, not much different to any other hail-of-punches/slashes/etc rapid attack kind of move. Long Range could be swordbeams/airblades; hitting somebody with a sword from far away isn't exactly a foreign idea for this kind of combat. HP Up would just be nebulous 'durability', although it's rather difficult to show how that applies outside of the video game - it would just get rolled into whatever credit they gave Cloud for having the 'best armor'.

Counter materia would probably be better depicted as a sort of reactive energy field, something that launches a burst when an enemy attack makes contact with it; Counter - Attack or Counter - Magic would be pretty easy to show in this fashion. Counter-Command doesn't have a lot of combat-relevant applications, although it would be fun to see Link get blasted with a bunch of Gil from Counter - Coin Toss..

[Forum Explorer]

I'm just going to repost my analysis from when we first learned about this match up:

I'm pretty sure any of Venom's intelligence feats can be thrown out the window. Crona has driven an entire branch of Meister's insane before, so unless Venom has some serious mental resistances, Crona will likely do the same here.

Also Crona's sonic attacks will at least let him bypass Venom's durability, but I think the big thing is if Crona can absorb Venom or not. If it was Carnage it would be a definite yes, as his ability to absorb people is entirely based off how crazy they are. I don't know how insane Venom is, or if it would count if he's driven insane during the fight.

Anyways, besides absorbing Venom, I don't think Crona has any way to bypass Venom's regeneration. Crona is certainly strong enough to hurt Venom, but has nothing that isn't in some way a stab, slice, or crush.

On the other hand, Crona's durability is high enough that Venom will have difficulty harming Crona, but has no regeneration, so each blow that does get through counts. Of course, each blow that does get through will just increase Crona's durability and strength as each drop of blood can be used in either defense or offense.

So yeah, I don't think Venom is strong enough to kill Crona quickly, so it's going to come down to how well Venom can resist the insanity causing effect, and then how well Venom can resist being absorbed. Crona did manage to absorb something that could effect the entire world, so that's not going to be easy.


Anyways, so my question for Marvel fans (well mostly Rater, but there's others in the thread), is how durable is Venom mentally? Because that's what I think it will come down to. If Venom can't resist Crona's insanity, than it's a win for Crona. If he can, then it's a win for Venom.

[Rater202]

Venom was once driven temporarily insane by falling into a vat of chemicals and was rendered semi-feral by the psychic backlash of the death of the Grendal, as well as briefly falling under Knull's control for a time when Knull was acting through the Grendal(and was almost assimilated into the Grendal) but seems to have developed a resistance to that.

Lee Price was able to keep it from leaving him and limit how it could affect his body using skills he was taught in the army to resist enemy psychics... But it was able to overcome that with the motivation of "Spider-Man is standing right there and says he ants to be my host again."

It's also once been forcibly purged of its bloodlust by the Hivemind on klyntar and had its memories of its first sapient host suppressed(and it's following memories altered) by hypnosis by the kree.

However: Symbiotes are powerful psychics and we've never seen them take a direct psychic attack from something that isn't Knull or a vessel thereof.

So, basically, it depends on what you mean by insanity and how the power works...

Eddie regularly struggles with mental illness: There was a period of time where he was convinced that failure to kill Spider-Man was a sin. He also thought for a while that random occurrence that gave him the Anti-Venom symbiote was God telling him that Symbiotes were demons and to kill them all.

(I feel bad for any Priests that have had to take Eddie's confessions.)

He's also had his mind screwed with by the symbiote heavily both during his first time with it and during a period of time when it was semi-feal and brain-damaged during the same run(though it separated from him when it realized that he was backsliding into toxic behaviors and didn't come back till it was fully recovered.)

Though, considering that an Insane Venom was able to not only stop the Juggernaut but send him flying in a different direction, driving Venom insane might make him more dangerous.

Another thing to take into account is whether or not being a Kishin makes Crona count as a God or Godlike being by the standards of Knull: All Symbiotes have "divine slaying" properties that allow them to kill beings that are otherwise immortal and inflict extra harm on godlike beings. (See War of the Realms, where Malakith the Accursed was able to force the symbiote to bond to him and manifest as a word that he used to inflict mortal wounds on Freya.)

It's also established that Dark Magic strengthens and heals symbiotes, in that same storyline being bonded to Malakith and thus, being exposed to the dark magic that was part of his being as a dark elf, basically cured the symbiote's, for lack of a better term, brain damage and was said to have made it stronger. So,

[Prime32]

Anyways, so my question for Marvel fans (well mostly Rater, but there's others in the thread), is how durable is Venom mentally? Because that's what I think it will come down to. If Venom can't resist Crona's insanity, than it's a win for Crona. If he can, then it's a win for Venom.

On its own, the symbiote is often depicted as getting "poisoned" by evil minds it comes in contact with, becoming more violent and bloodthirsty itself. But when in sync with its host, they tend to be able to pool their mental strength and fight off things they couldn't alone.

[Rynjin]

I wonder what would happen if Crona absorbed Eddie but not Venom.

Maybe the fight will end via Venom "victory" by forming a new bond with Crona and/or Ragnarok. That would be new, if nothing else.

[Rater202]

Something I forgot: Symbiotes, their biggest advantage is that they absorb and adapt.

And sometimes this adaption happens very fast: In Mike costa's Venom run, the symbiote was super aggro becuase, essentially, the drugs the FBI made Eddie take when he was Toxin made his body chemistry harmful tot he symbiote and it was aggravating its corruption. Alchemex was able to cook up drugs that heal the corruption and treat the symptoms, but the symbiote adapted fast enough that the drugs stopped working and they had to take a different one every single time for them to have any effect.

So... It might be susceptible to being driven insane. But that doesn't man it'll stay insane,

[Forum Explorer]

Venom was once driven temporarily insane by falling into a vat of chemicals and was rendered semi-feral by the psychic backlash of the death of the Grendal, as well as briefly falling under Knull's control for a time when Knull was acting through the Grendal(and was almost assimilated into the Grendal) but seems to have developed a resistance to that.

Lee Price was able to keep it from leaving him and limit how it could affect his body using skills he was taught in the army to resist enemy psychics... But it was able to overcome that with the motivation of "Spider-Man is standing right there and says he ants to be my host again."

It's also once been forcibly purged of its bloodlust by the Hivemind on klyntar and had its memories of its first sapient host suppressed(and it's following memories altered) by hypnosis by the kree.

However: Symbiotes are powerful psychics and we've never seen them take a direct psychic attack from something that isn't Knull or a vessel thereof.

So, basically, it depends on what you mean by insanity and how the power works...

Any mental quirk taken too far is insanity. For example, Death the Kid has an overwhelming need to things to be symmetrical, which is considered a form of insanity. Crona once drove people to be obsessed with breasts, as another form of insanity.

The madness itself works by directly targeting the soul. That's why it is able to effect things like zombies.

Eddie regularly struggles with mental illness: There was a period of time where he was convinced that failure to kill Spider-Man was a sin. He also thought for a while that random occurrence that gave him the Anti-Venom symbiote was God telling him that Symbiotes were demons and to kill them all.

(I feel bad for any Priests that have had to take Eddie's confessions.)

He's also had his mind screwed with by the symbiote heavily both during his first time with it and during a period of time when it was semi-feal and brain-damaged during the same run(though it separated from him when it realized that he was backsliding into toxic behaviors and didn't come back till it was fully recovered.)

Though, considering that an Insane Venom was able to not only stop the Juggernaut but send him flying in a different direction, driving Venom insane might make him more dangerous.

Another thing to take into account is whether or not being a Kishin makes Crona count as a God or Godlike being by the standards of Knull: All Symbiotes have "divine slaying" properties that allow them to kill beings that are otherwise immortal and inflict extra harm on godlike beings. (See War of the Realms, where Malakith the Accursed was able to force the symbiote to bond to him and manifest as a word that he used to inflict mortal wounds on Freya.)

It's also established that Dark Magic strengthens and heals symbiotes, in that same storyline being bonded to Malakith and thus, being exposed to the dark magic that was part of his being as a dark elf, basically cured the symbiote's, for lack of a better term, brain damage and was said to have made it stronger. So,

So it sounds like Eddie certainly qualifies for absorption.

I don't think amping up Venom's physical capabilities will matter that much compared to creating the vulnerability to being absorbed by Crona. Though from the sounds of it, Venom might be insane enough to be absorbed already. It's kinda vague on the exact amount of insane you need to be.

Good question. The Kishin title is Demon God, so maybe? I think the demon part is the key word in the title though, if that makes a difference.

I don't think anything Crona does is actual dark magic. Just Madness based. Everyone has a little madness in them, Crona just amplifies it until it is the dominant part of who you are.

Something I forgot: Symbiotes, their biggest advantage is that they absorb and adapt.

And sometimes this adaption happens very fast: In Mike costa's Venom run, the symbiote was super aggro becuase, essentially, the drugs the FBI made Eddie take when he was Toxin made his body chemistry harmful tot he symbiote and it was aggravating its corruption. Alchemex was able to cook up drugs that heal the corruption and treat the symptoms, but the symbiote adapted fast enough that the drugs stopped working and they had to take a different one every single time for them to have any effect.

So... It might be susceptible to being driven insane. But that doesn't man it'll stay insane,

Well like I said, it's an attack on the soul. I don't think Venom's physically adaptability matters to that.

[Rater202]

Symbiotes are made of a substance called Living Abyss.

Basically, they're drawn from the shadow of a Primordial Elder God known as Knull, known as the King in Black, who predates the Big Bang and holds dominion over Darkness, Death, and Insanity. They're basically Hard Light... But, Darkness. Hard Absence-Of-Light.

I don't think there are any distinctions between physicality and spirituality... And that assumes that they even have souls: Symbiotes can't be affected by things like the Penance Stare.

They're also shown adapting to cosmic energy and magical powers.

For example, An X-Men storyline had Beast go back in time to when the original five X-Men were young, just after their first encounter with Magneto in their teen years, and bring them forward to prove a point to Cyclops... Then they got stuck and stayed in the modern-day for a few years real time.

During this time, Teen Beast started dabbling in magic out of frustration that tech had advanced so much and he didn't know how to keep up. He made a bad deal with a demon and had to stop using magic or else he ran the risk of turning into a demon, which would eventually become permanent.

In Poison X, when the teen O-5 X-Men go to space to rescue Cyclop's dad and kidnap Venom to help them because the people who kidnapped the Starjammers were wearing Symbiotes, the X-Men themselves end up bonded to symbiotes and, among other things, Beast's symbiote incorporated demonic traits from traces of the magic around him.

The only thing they don't seem to be able to adapt to is Cosmic Fire... And that one symbiote had only been bonded to Angel for a couple of hours.

Honestly, since Venom is, technically, and extension of a God of Madness, amplifying its insanity might backfire horribly now that I think about it.

[Devonix]

Quad-cut could just be a flurry attack, not much different to any other hail-of-punches/slashes/etc rapid attack kind of move. Long Range could be swordbeams/airblades; hitting somebody with a sword from far away isn't exactly a foreign idea for this kind of combat. HP Up would just be nebulous 'durability', although it's rather difficult to show how that applies outside of the video game - it would just get rolled into whatever credit they gave Cloud for having the 'best armor'.

Counter materia would probably be better depicted as a sort of reactive energy field, something that launches a burst when an enemy attack makes contact with it; Counter - Attack or Counter - Magic would be pretty easy to show in this fashion. Counter-Command doesn't have a lot of combat-relevant applications, although it would be fun to see Link get blasted with a bunch of Gil from Counter - Coin Toss..

The point is that it's materia that exists to give the characters a mechanical way to do things that they would in reality be able to do without them. It In a versus, or something like the remake, they're not present, because the mechanics of the battle change.

[Forum Explorer]

I don't think there are any distinctions between physicality and spirituality... And that assumes that they even have souls: Symbiotes can't be affected by things like the Penance Stare.



Honestly, since Venom is, technically, and extension of a God of Madness, amplifying its insanity might backfire horribly now that I think about it.

That's very interesting. If they judge Venom to not actually have a soul, than he'd basically be immune to everything Crona does. I mean, sure Crona has physical attacks, they just aren't actually all that noteworthy compared to what Venom normally fights.


Maybe it would be, but I don't think Crona can actually prevent their Madness waves from effecting everyone around them. Not without entirely sealing themselves away. But being a God of Madness (or part of one) does mean that Venom is eligible to be absorbed by Crona right off the bat. Crona did manage to absorb Asura, though it wasn't exactly stable, and when Crona's mind wavered, Asura was able to take back over. But then again, Crona did manage to regain control to act as the seal in order to seal them both away.

EDIT: I don't think Venom's adaptability will protect against absorption, because Crona gains the abilities of what they absorb. So if they absorb Venom, it'll basically be like two symbotes trying to eat each other.

[SKarious]

Doesn't Marvel have some usual shtick about oo much insanity making you immune to mind control, absorption and other hypnotizing/altering powers? Such as Deadpool being "too crazy to go insane" or someone with absolutely no remorse being totally immune to Ghost Rider's stare?