Death Battle 6: Measured in TNT

[Rater202]

Spoiler

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On the one hand, the Hulk can't die, not permanently. If the fight is at night he'll just get right back up. His strength is theoretically infinite, depending on which personality is in charge and how angry he is.

On the other hand, every incarnation of Broly is exponentially greater than the Hulk is and has a much better-ranged game.

While Devil Hulk is stronger than Green Scar, he doesn't have any feats greater than shaking a planet apart with his footsteps so they're probably gonna go with that.

Broly... Super Broly and SSJB Gogeta fighting literally tore a whole through reality and left them briefly stranded in an acid trip dimension of some kind, which wasn't just creative licenses becuase Gogeta takes a minute to look around with a "what the hell expression" on his face.

If this was anyone else I'd give it to Broly but this is Deathbattles.

Unless there Marvel Bias counteracts their Dragon Ball Bias

[HolyDraconus]

The Season Finale has been announced for December 27th.

https://twitter.com/DEATHBATTLE/stat...45183954747393

Spoiler: NEXT Next time...

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In the green and very angry corner, hailing from Marvel Comics: THE HULK
In the green and very angry corner, hailing from the Dragon Ball Super movie of the same name: BROLY

Oh boy. That's going to be a match.

I'm leaning Hulk because comics are silly at times, but Broly could take it on speed since he has more ranged options than Hulk.

Anyway, time to get mad, get green, and get punchy.

Spoiler: Ugh

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Its going to go one of two ways: Hulk becomes composite Hulk for the win, or he loses outright. Composite Hulk is absurd with his feats and its honestly a no brainer in that situation. Regular Hulk loses this though: Since Super was listed for the version of Broly, you dealing with a guy that casually broke through dimensions while fighting, stomped Super Saiyan God and SSGSS, which at this time was confirmed to be, according to DB themselves, capable of popping the universe if they aren't careful, as well as ragdolled Frieza. Without SS2.

[Kitten Champion]

Admittedly, my entire knowledge of Broly is watching the Abridged Series' version of his movie, but still... he destroyed a galaxy. Obliterating what would be thousands of millions of stars and planets in their entirety, by himself. While I know Hulk has some absurd feats - that's part of the appeal of the character - I don't think he destroyed a galaxy.

Then again, I think Hulk mildly hurt Superman in a non-canon fan-voted cross-over, and thus is probably stronger than Goku.

[Forum Explorer]

Admittedly, my entire knowledge of Broly is watching the Abridged Series' version of his movie, but still... he destroyed a galaxy. Obliterating what would be thousands of millions of stars and planets in their entirety, by himself. While I know Hulk has some absurd feats - that's part of the appeal of the character - I don't think he destroyed a galaxy.

Then again, I think Hulk mildly hurt Superman in a non-canon fan-voted cross-over, and thus is probably stronger than Goku.

I imagine they are going to use Dragon Ball Super Broly, and I don't think he destroyed a galaxy, but I never did watch his movie.

[Rynjin]

I imagine they are going to use Dragon Ball Super Broly, and I don't think he destroyed a galaxy, but I never did watch his movie.

He didn't, but he is canonically many, many orders of magnitude stronger.

[Forum Explorer]

He didn't, but he is canonically many, many orders of magnitude stronger.

...what? That doesn't seem to make sense. He's canonically much stronger than the version of him that doesn't technically exist? I imagine that must be an author statement.

[Rynjin]

...what? That doesn't seem to make sense. He's canonically much stronger than the version of him that doesn't technically exist? I imagine that must be an author statement.

It's simple comparison. Everything in the movies is consistent with things that are happening at the time in the series in regards to power levels. Broly was defeated by a sufficiently amped up Super Saiyan Goku; not even Super Saiyan 2 (since it takes place before Super Saiyan 2 was even a thing, about a week before the final battle with Cell). Even if you claim it's because he has multiple Super Saiyans' energy at once, he has at most the equivalent of regular Super Saiyan power x4.

We know the exact power multipliers of Z's Super Saiyan forms; Super Saiyan is x50 power, 2 is double that, and 3 is double THAT (for a total of x400, or 8 times the strength of Super Saiyan).

This tells us that AT BEST, Goku was half the strength of Super Saiyan 3 during this fight with Broly.

We do not know exactly the strength of Super Saiyan Blue, but it is significantly stronger than Super Saiyan 3, by a magnitude that is effectively infinite; Blue is a bigger boost than God, and God is about 70% as powerful as Beerus, who is strong enough to flex nuts against 3, which is about all we know for certain.

Combine this with Super Broly going toe to toe with Gogeta (a fusion) in Blue form. Fusions are roughly a multiplier of "however much the other guy is". Eg. if Goku and Vegeta were both 1000 Power Level, they would be 1 million as Gogeta.

Hence "orders of magnitude stronger". There's no WoG needed, just extrapolations form what is shown in the material available.

Doing a quick search, because I forgot to before, we know what OG Broly's power level was thanks to a magazine (V-Jump): it's 1.4 Billion. We also know from the same magazine that Super Gogeta (Gogeta in regular Super Saiyan) is 2.5 Billion in Fusion Reborn (which takes place during the Buu Saga). So Gogeta is nearly twice the strength of OG Broly before even pouring on Super Saiyan 2 or 3.

TL;DR: Buu saga numbers big, Super numbers EVEN BIGGERER, Cell saga numbers small (in comparison).

[Forum Explorer]

It's simple comparison. Everything in the movies is consistent with things that are happening at the time in the series in regards to power levels. Broly was defeated by a sufficiently amped up Super Saiyan Goku; not even Super Saiyan 2. Even if you claim it's because he has multiple Super Saiyans' energy at once, he has at most the equivalent of regular Super Saiyan power x4.

We know the exact power multipliers of Z's Super Saiyan forms; Super Saiyan is x50 power, 2 is double that, and 3 is double THAT (for a total of 8 times the strength of Super Siayan).

This tells us that AT BEST, Goku was half the strength of Super Saiyan 3 during this fight with Broly.

We do not know exactly the strength of Super Saiyan Blue, but it is significantly stronger than Super Saiyan 3, by a magnitude that is effectively infinite; Blue is a bigger boost than God, and God is about 70% as powerful as Beerus, who is strong enough to flex nuts against 3, which is about all we know for certain.

Combine this with Super Broly going toe to toe with Gogeta (a fusion) in Blue form. Fusions are roughly a multiplier of "however much the other guy is". Eg. if Goku and Vegeta were both 1000 Power Level, they would be 1 million as Gogeta.

Hence "orders of magnitude stronger". There's no WoG needed, just extrapolations form what is shown in the material available.

Doing a quick search, because I forgot to before, we know what OG Broly's power level was thanks to a magazine: it's 1.4 Billion. We also know from the same magazine that Super Gogeta (Gogeta in regular Super Saiyan) is 2.5 Billion in Fusion Reborn (which takes place during the Buu Saga). So Gogeta is nearly twice the strength of OG Broly before even pouring on Super Saiyan 2 or 3.

TL;DR: Buu saga numbers big, Super numbers EVEN BIGGERER.

But that's not what canon says. Canon says that Goku beat Broly on Earth with Super Sayain Blue. He never beat him any other way in canon. Canonically, South Galaxy was never destroyed, or if it was, it wasn't Broly who did it. The DBZ movie Broly never existed according to canon. Only the Super version.

You can't use any feats from that movie (or rather you shouldn't) because it isn't canon with the current Broly. Your logic makes sense, but basically that Broly is as canon as the one that's married to Princess Trunks.

Though I will say that Super is weird with power levels. A bullet manages to bruise Goku, when way back in Dragon Ball someone could shoot him while he's sleeping and he wouldn't even notice.

[Rater202]

...what? That doesn't seem to make sense. He's canonically much stronger than the version of him that doesn't technically exist? I imagine that must be an author statement.

In Dragon Ball Super: Broly, Broly's power level is said to be too high to measure.

More concretely, according to an interview in V-Jump Broly, during the events of Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan had a power level of 1,400,000,000 in his "Legendary Super Saiyan" form.

For comparison, according to a newspaper interview with Frieza's seiyuu, Frieza after his resurrection, four months of hellish training, and with the increase in power given to him by his Golden Form, had a power level of 100,000,000,000,000,000,000.

100,000,000,000,000,000,000

aaa.1,400,000,000

See the difference?

Goku and Vegeta, in their Blue forms, are roughly equal to Golden Frieza: Frieza had the upper hand at first, but his power wasn't sustainable.

Goku, Frieza, and Vegeta are all confirmed to be leaps and bounds above where they were in Rez F by the Tournament of Power in terms of base power and Goku at the least underwent multiple increases in base power during the Tournament if you pay attention.

We don't have quantifiable numbers for this, however.

The super version of Broly was able to easily manhandle all three of them in various forms, including a stronger and more sustainable version of Frieza's golden form, and ultimately needed Gogeta, in Super Saiyan Blue, to defeat him in his strongest form.

The way the Metamoran Fusion Dance works by multiplying the users powers together: So, Gogeta Is GokuXVegetaX whatever the multiplier of Super Saiyan Blue is.

While we don't know what the multiplier of Super Saiyan Blue is, we do know that it's Super Saiyan God combined with base Super Saiyan, meaning that it's either 50X as powerful as Super Saiyan God or 100X as powerful as Super Saiyan God, dependant on how you interpret the line about "Full Power" Super Saiyan drawing out the full power of Super Saiyan without drawbacks.

The end of the day is that Broly as depicted in Super is exponentially more powerful that Broly as depicted in the old movies.

Now, you could argue that Broly was stronger in Broly Second Coming, but that was only becuase he experienced a single massive boost from Saiyan Power.

The single biggest quantifiable boost anyone has gotten from Saiyan Power was Goku during the Namek Saga going from 90,000 to 3,000,000 after recovering from the beating he got when Ginyu stole his body.

That's a 33.3 repeating multiplication in power.

So, the most Z Broly's power could be in Second Coming would be 46,666,666,662.

Z Broly is an ant compared to Super Broly.

[Forum Explorer]

In Dragon Ball Super: Broly, Broly's power level is said to be too high to measure.

More concretely, according to an interview in V-Jump Broly, during the events of Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan had a power level of 1,400,000,000 in his "Legendary Super Saiyan" form.

For comparison, according to a newspaper interview with Frieza's seiyuu, Frieza after his resurrection, four months of hellish training, and with the increase in power given to him by his Golden Form, had a power level of 100,000,000,000,000,000,000.

100,000,000,000,000,000,000

aaa.1,400,000,000

See the difference?

Goku and Vegeta, in their Blue forms, are roughly equal to Golden Frieza: Frieza had the upper hand at first, but his power wasn't sustainable.

Goku, Frieza, and Vegeta are all confirmed to be leaps and bounds above where they were in Rez F by the Tournament of Power in terms of base power and Goku at the least underwent multiple increases in base power during the Tournament if you pay attention.

We don't have quantifiable numbers for this, however.

The super version of Broly was able to easily manhandle all three of them in various forms, including a stronger and more sustainable version of Frieza's golden form, and ultimately needed Gogeta, in Super Saiyan Blue, to defeat him in his strongest form.

The way the Metamoran Fusion Dance works by multiplying the users powers together: So, Gogeta Is GokuXVegetaX whatever the multiplier of Super Saiyan Blue is.

While we don't know what the multiplier of Super Saiyan Blue is, we do know that it's Super Saiyan God combined with base Super Saiyan, meaning that it's either 50X as powerful as Super Saiyan God or 100X as powerful as Super Saiyan God, dependant on how you interpret the line about "Full Power" Super Saiyan drawing out the full power of Super Saiyan without drawbacks.

The end of the day is that Broly as depicted in Super is exponentially more powerful that Broly as depicted in the old movies.

Now, you could argue that Broly was stronger in Broly Second Coming, but that was only becuase he experienced a single massive boost from Saiyan Power.

The single biggest quantifiable boost anyone has gotten from Saiyan Power was Goku during the Namek Saga going from 90,000 to 3,000,000 after recovering from the beating he got when Ginyu stole his body.

That's a 33.3 repeating multiplication in power.

So, the most Z Broly's power could be in Second Coming would be 46,666,666,662.

Z Broly is an ant compared to Super Broly.

To be clear, I'm confused about the use of the word 'canon' and was wondering if there was some sort of official statement that would justify using feats from the Z Broly movie. Your calculations and stuff are fine, just that as far as canon is concerned there never was a Z Broly to compare to.

[Rynjin]

But that's not what canon says. Canon says that Goku beat Broly on Earth with Super Sayain Blue. He never beat him any other way in canon. Canonically, South Galaxy was never destroyed, or if it was, it wasn't Broly who did it. The DBZ movie Broly never existed according to canon. Only the Super version.

You can't use any feats from that movie (or rather you shouldn't) because it isn't canon with the current Broly. Your logic makes sense, but basically that Broly is as canon as the one that's married to Princess Trunks.

You're being a bit nitpicky IMO, it's pretty clear from my elaboration what I meant.

Though I will say that Super is weird with power levels. A bullet manages to bruise Goku, when way back in Dragon Ball someone could shoot him while he's sleeping and he wouldn't even notice.

Dragon Ball has always been really inconsistent with this. One moment, Launch is shooting at the boys with her Uzi and it just leaves a bit of a mark, and the next we're supposed to believe General Blue really has Goku dead to rights with his shotgun. Krillin hurts Goku with a LIGHTLY THROWN ROCK in the Cell Saga, while he's in Super Saiyan form.

Things are a bit whack.

[Rater202]

Back when the Z anime was big, Toriyama made a statement that the movies all took place in alternate timelines that had differences in the story.

So, they're canon in that they happened, but they aren't in continuity, whereas Super Broly is... Unless the anime comes back and adapts it, then the adaption would take the movie's place in continuity as happened with Battle of Gods and Ressurection F.

The TV specials are a different kettle of Fish: History of Trunks is mostly canon, becuase it's adapting and expanding on something Toriyama did himself, but Bardock: The Father of Goku was not canon.

Toriyama stated that it was a good story, but it was not the kind of story he would write. Bardock was Goku's canonical father, and Bardock confronted Frieza before the destruction of Planet Vegeta, but nothing else from that movie was even remotely canon.

[Forum Explorer]

You're being a bit nitpicky IMO, it's pretty clear from my elaboration what I meant.



Dragon Ball has always been really inconsistent with this. One moment, Launch is shooting at the boys with her Uzi and it just leaves a bit of a mark, and the next we're supposed to believe General Blue really has Goku dead to rights with his shotgun. Krillin hurts Goku with a LIGHTLY THROWN ROCK in the Cell Saga, while he's in Super Saiyan form.

Things are a bit whack.

I just wanted to be clear on how you confused me in the first place.


Fair point. Dragon Ball has never been the best at being consistent.

[Dragonus45]

To be clear, I'm confused about the use of the word 'canon' and was wondering if there was some sort of official statement that would justify using feats from the Z Broly movie. Your calculations and stuff are fine, just that as far as canon is concerned there never was a Z Broly to compare to.

Virtually anyone around in super could end a whole galaxy at this point, it doesn't have to be explicitly stated to still be cannon to be in keeping with what he and others have been shown to be able to do by the math.

[Anteros]

None of this even matters. This is Death Battle we're talking about. They're just going to take a throwaway line about Hulk being "immortal" or having "infinite" strength and say he wins despite the fact that Broly's feats are all an order of magnitude higher than Hulk's.

Hulk couldn't even win a fight against Saiyan Saga Vegeta since he could just fly up, bust the planet, and leave Hulk floating in space forever.

[Rater202]

None of this even matters. This is Death Battle we're talking about. They're just going to take a throwaway line about Hulk being "immortal" or having "infinite" strength and say he wins despite the fact that Broly's feats are all an order of magnitude higher than Hulk's.

Hulk couldn't even win a fight against Saiyan Saga Vegeta since he could just fly up, bust the planet, and leave Hulk floating in space forever.

I don't know, Death Battle's bias against Marvel is almost as great as their bias against dragon ball.

If they play it fair, Hulk will put up a good fight at first but be quickly overwhelmed.

However, if Hulk gets completely curb-stomped or if Broly loses at all, we know that's the result of one of the biases getting in the way.

[Traab]

They put the lee blurb up. Didnt cover anything too interesting aside from mentioning his drunken boxing making him able to fight on par with opponents that would normally surpass him. Im honestly curious to see what sort of feat numbers these guys get as its kind of hard to definitively say who wins because I dont think either one really outclasses the other to an insane extent based on their own merits, and death battle loves to give their combatants the merits of other people as well. Such as constantly declaring goro is as fast as kabal because both are in mortal kombat. Despite there never once even remotely being a single scene that suggests he is supersonic.

[SKarious]

Are they even going to give Sanji a chance? I bet they'll say Rock Lee scales to Naruto because they fought once, and since Naruto punched out a moon, Sanji has no chance to win this.

[Traab]

Are they even going to give Sanji a chance? I bet they'll say Rock Lee scales to Naruto because they fought once, and since Naruto punched out a moon, Sanji has no chance to win this.

That is what im honestly wondering about. Im not sure what his biggest strength feat is, between kicking hard enough to stand in midair, or kicking that giant fishman creature on fishman island into the air, there are some very solid feats to draw from when estimating how much force he can produce. Though it looks like they are giving him the speed feat of how fast he would have to spin to ignite his leg from friction. Which is pretty darn quick. "But naruto can dodge light speed attacks, therefore lee can too" is an argument im just waiting to hear. I swear screw attack gets worse and worse with its transitive property with every season.

[Forum Explorer]

That is what im honestly wondering about. Im not sure what his biggest strength feat is, between kicking hard enough to stand in midair, or kicking that giant fishman creature on fishman island into the air, there are some very solid feats to draw from when estimating how much force he can produce. Though it looks like they are giving him the speed feat of how fast he would have to spin to ignite his leg from friction. Which is pretty darn quick. "But naruto can dodge light speed attacks, therefore lee can too" is an argument im just waiting to hear. I swear screw attack gets worse and worse with its transitive property with every season.

I find that the transitive property stuff is often with fighting games or minor characters. So maybe Lee will get compared to Guy, but I don't think they'll touch Naruto's feats much.

[ben-zayb]

I find that the transitive property stuff is often with fighting games or minor characters. So maybe Lee will get compared to Guy, but I don't think they'll touch Naruto's feats much.

Uhm. Guy got compared to Naruto, though.

[Forum Explorer]

Uhm. Guy got compared to Naruto, though.

Yes, I'm betting that the one layer removed will be enough to keep Lee from being compared to Naruto. But most notably, Guy did not get credit for the moon destroying feat, as it was deemed beyond him.

[Traab]

Yes, I'm betting that the one layer removed will be enough to keep Lee from being compared to Naruto. But most notably, Guy did not get credit for the moon destroying feat, as it was deemed beyond him.

True, but considering lee is basically young gai, it wouldnt shock me at all if they gave him gais stats then tacked drunken boxing on at the end.

[Forum Explorer]

True, but considering lee is basically young gai, it wouldnt shock me at all if they gave him gais stats then tacked drunken boxing on at the end.

I can't remember if it's stated that Lee can use all the Gates or not, but they might just give him everything Gai has minus the Gate of Death.

[Rynjin]

I can't remember if it's stated that Lee can use all the Gates or not, but they might just give him everything Gai has minus the Gate of Death.

He makes it all the way up to 7 when he tries to square up on Madara, before Guy stops him. It's implied he was psyching himself up to push through to 8.

[hungrycrow]

He makes it all the way up to 7 when he tries to square up on Madara, before Guy stops him. It's implied he was psyching himself up to push through to 8.

Lee claims he can only use up to the sixth gate during the fight with Madara. I have no idea what he can do in Boruto.

[Traab]

Lee claims he can only use up to the sixth gate during the fight with Madara. I have no idea what he can do in Boruto.

That still gives him the ability to punch out fireballs and such like sanji can do with kicks only ranged. So that probably would give him the edge in strength and/or speed due to how it happens. I am honestly curious to see how this goes as really, this all comes down to how they decide to interpret both characters feats and what sort of extras they will tack on. This isnt flash versus quicksilver where the gap is so ludicrously large and obvious there is no point in having them fight. And its also not a matter of loopholes such as the ichigo naruto fight where they had to twist things to make naruto fighting a disembodied soul work somehow. Its two taijutsu masters going at it hammer and tongs.

[Rater202]

This isnt flash versus quicksilver where the gap is so ludicrously large and obvious there is no point in having them fight.

That's a weird vs debate to have, since Marvel and DC actually have agreed on how it goes.

Quicksilver is technically faster than the Flash, but the Speed Force's infinite power and physical violating bullcrap lets the Flash supplement his natural speed many times over what Quicksilver is capable of sustaining.

Quicksilver can technically go infinitely fast but rarely goes to even a fraction of his greatest feats becuase he's limited to the power in his own body--his metabolism is impossibly efficient, but if he doesn't have enough gas in the tank... The Flash's body can only go so fast on its own but he has an infinite source of energy and can easily overclock himself to go many times the speed of light while ignoring all of the ways that someone not connected tot he Speed Force doing that would kill themselves and everyone around them.

[HolyDraconus]

Spoilers of course.

Spoiler: The Winner is....

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Sanji. Yes, they scaled Rock to Guy. Yes, they brought up that stupid moon feat. Yes, they gave Rock the 8 gates. Yes, they said that Rock could pulp Sanji on a hit from the 8th gate... But Sanji apparently spanks Rock in speed to the point that it didn't really matter?

And..

Spoiler: Next Time on Death Battle

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You already know who it is. Hulk v Broly. Dec 27th.

[Traab]

Ugh

Spoiler: this battle

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There was so much wrong with this comparison. LUFFY IS NOT 13x LIGHT SPEED! That was pure observation haki letting him predict an attack with a several second charge up and move out of its way like 2 inches. Then on top of that, just because zoro can cut a meteor doesnt magically make sanji just as strong, or durable enough to take it. I swear to god deathbattle is relying more and more on transitive property as the series continues. You have 90 fricking years of One Piece, and about half that for naruto to pick out actual feats performed by the actual people involved in the death battle to work with. USE THAT! Hercule Satan does not scale up to Goku just because they are both in the same anime! (goku is a scrub in comparison) Being in the same anime doesnt make you the same power level as the main protagonist!