Death Battle 6: Measured in TNT

[hungrycrow]

Spoiler: This Battle

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So much transitive property. I would have given Sanji the win anyways, but I can't see him as a faster-than-light character.

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler: This Battle

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Honestly the transitive properties isn't that bad for this one. Sanji does fight Luffy and Zoro all the time, and Lee was directly trained by Guy and was already at the 6th gate when he was still a teenager.

However, they also really didn't need to do transitive properties for this fight. There is plenty of material to use for Sanji, and a good amount for Lee too.

The lightspeed dodge? Yeah, that was BS and I just don't think that actually counts as moving at lightspeed in the first place. Reacting, at a stretch (). Though I still think Sanji would've won. Flight+Invisibility in combination on Lee not having any sort of radar or scanning jutsus that I'm aware of would make it easy for Sanji to run out the clock on the 8th Gate.

[Rynjin]

Yeah, this is another one where I'm not mad at the result so much as the path they took to get there. It cheapens a character's victory when you completely fail to make it THEIR victory, and is instead a conglomeration of other characters' feats.

[Traab]

Spoiler: This Battle

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Honestly the transitive properties isn't that bad for this one. Sanji does fight Luffy and Zoro all the time, and Lee was directly trained by Guy and was already at the 6th gate when he was still a teenager.

However, they also really didn't need to do transitive properties for this fight. There is plenty of material to use for Sanji, and a good amount for Lee too.

The lightspeed dodge? Yeah, that was BS and I just don't think that actually counts as moving at lightspeed in the first place. Reacting, at a stretch (). Though I still think Sanji would've won. Flight+Invisibility in combination on Lee not having any sort of radar or scanning jutsus that I'm aware of would make it easy for Sanji to run out the clock on the 8th Gate.

I agree with your conclusion, but sparring with zoro and luffy doesnt mean they are on par with each other. Mostly its comedic fighting between sanji and zoro and not serious, as the boat still freaking exists after they are done, and it wouldnt if they were doing island busting feats at each other. As for lee, matching him to gai is fair enough, but then the extra step to match him to naruto is what bugged me. Not everyone still alive at the end of naruto is as strong as the main character. The sasuke comparison worked because they were on par with each other for raw power at their peaks, or at least close enough to let it slide, but it seems like everyone in the naruto universe is going to be a moon buster at this rate. Lets redo the garra toph fight, like naruto garra is also a young kage, therefore he can blow up the moon and move at lightspeed. There, I justified it as much as they do themselves.

[HolyDraconus]

I agree with your conclusion, but sparring with zoro and luffy doesnt mean they are on par with each other. Mostly its comedic fighting between sanji and zoro and not serious, as the boat still freaking exists after they are done, and it wouldnt if they were doing island busting feats at each other. As for lee, matching him to gai is fair enough, but then the extra step to match him to naruto is what bugged me. Not everyone still alive at the end of naruto is as strong as the main character. The sasuke comparison worked because they were on par with each other for raw power at their peaks, or at least close enough to let it slide, but it seems like everyone in the naruto universe is going to be a moon buster at this rate. Lets redo the garra toph fight, like naruto garra is also a young kage, therefore he can blow up the moon and move at lightspeed. There, I justified it as much as they do themselves.

eh, gaara should of won that fight WITHOUT having to scale to naruto with the "moon busting" feat.

[Traab]

eh, gaara should of won that fight WITHOUT having to scale to naruto with the "moon busting" feat.

Oh I fully agree, I just figure confirming that garra can blow up moons at light speed should make the outcome even more obviously wrong. Heh, of course my actual point was how silly it is that every narutoverse character but garra is somehow a moonbuster now. It really is no different than giving every character in dbz goku feats then adding on whatever unique trait they have on top (like lee and his drunken boxing) which is just silly.

[hungrycrow]

It's kind of irrelevant, but noting drunken boxing as a point in Lee's favor is a little silly. Sanji has fought a guy piloting a noodle mech he squeezed out of his nose. Drunken kung fu might be unpredictable in Narutoverse but it's utterly mundane in One Piece.

[ben-zayb]

That speed scaling is so weird. I'm sure if they researched enough, they should be able to find something Sanji actually performed. In the anime, at least, his raid suit was stated to allow lightspeed movement. I still dislike the presentation where they show things in the fight that wouldn't really matter or make sense in the analysis (I imagine an 8-gate attack to do much more than just blow up Sanji's leg, but Lee wouldn't really hit Sanji with the raid suit's speed and invisibility).

It's kind of irrelevant, but noting drunken boxing as a point in Lee's favor is a little silly. Sanji has fought a guy piloting a noodle mech he squeezed out of his nose. Drunken kung fu might be unpredictable in Narutoverse but it's utterly mundane in One Piece.

Sanji actually fought someone that has a drunken-fist-styled attack named Drunken Swan Soiree as part of their ballet martial arts repertoire.

[Traab]

It's kind of irrelevant, but noting drunken boxing as a point in Lee's favor is a little silly. Sanji has fought a guy piloting a noodle mech he squeezed out of his nose. Drunken kung fu might be unpredictable in Narutoverse but it's utterly mundane in One Piece.

And lee has fought guys who turn into giant red foxes full of rage and malice whose very energy poisons whatever it touches. There is nothing silly about including mention of a skill one of the combatants has that makes them more formidable even for a short term boost. I dont think anybody was thinking, "MWAHAHAHA! Sanji is going to be utterly helpless against the oddity that is lee getting drunk!" Instead they were thinking, "This is a skill lee has that makes him harder to hit. Cant hurt trying it." And honestly, none of their skills matter THAT much other than their actual trump cards and ultimate states. The raid suit and lees gates. Everything before that is just padding the fight so it looks more interesting. Its like the goku superman fight. Base state, kaio ken, and ss 1-3 are meaningless to the battle, we all knew it was going to go straight to the top eventually before it would be decided.

[HolyDraconus]

Spoiler: spoilers. just in case.

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Hulk blurp is up. Infinite Strength was cited. Punching reality cited. Winner Hulk?

[hungrycrow]

Spoiler: Hulk

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Death Battle previously ruled that Hulk was limited by his adrenaline, which could be burned through. So even if they give him infinite strength that can be fought around.

Though really I'm not sure how Hulk can fight someone who can fly. Just blow up earth and toss Hulk into the sun. He can be infinitely angry in the sun forever.

[Keltest]

Spoiler: Hulk

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Death Battle previously ruled that Hulk was limited by his adrenaline, which could be burned through. So even if they give him infinite strength that can be fought around.

Though really I'm not sure how Hulk can fight someone who can fly. Just blow up earth and toss Hulk into the sun. He can be infinitely angry in the sun forever.

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Then he'll just throw the sun and hang on because something something transitive property something Thor something.

[Devonix]

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Then he'll just throw the sun and hang on because something something transitive property something Thor something.

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Ehh Hulks most often been shown as losing to Thor so it doesn't quite scale. Also how does he throw the sun, he's got nothing to stand on. Yes I know you're joking.,

[Keltest]

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Ehh Hulks most often been shown as losing to Thor so it doesn't quite scale. Also how does he throw the sun, he's got nothing to stand on. Yes I know you're joking.,

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The same way Thor can fly by throwing his hammer and hanging on I assume.

[Traab]

Spoiler: Hulk

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Death Battle previously ruled that Hulk was limited by his adrenaline, which could be burned through. So even if they give him infinite strength that can be fought around.

Though really I'm not sure how Hulk can fight someone who can fly. Just blow up earth and toss Hulk into the sun. He can be infinitely angry in the sun forever.

I just rewatched hulk versus doomsday, they basically said that doomsday overtaxed his healing ability so he couldnt keep getting angrier. I still call that a cheap copout, even though I agree that doomsday should win anyways as hulk would have had to outpunch superman before he was able to do enough physical damage to smash doomsday. And thats a LOT of ramp up time to get that angry. Like the only thing in hulks potential favor was world breaker hulk and his radiation emitting ability assuming both that doomsday hadnt been killed by it before and thus become immune, and that it didnt just turn doomsday into a green version of himself thats EVEN ANGRIER.

[HolyDraconus]

Welp, lets get the easy stuff out the way.

Spoiler: Winner is...

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Not Hulk. Apparently Broly was millions of times stronger than Hulk... who has infinite strength... but Hulk has to ramp up to that point of infinite strength while Broly... is Broly. They used Goku as a measuring stick for Broly, which I guess makes sense, considering that Broly slapped around Blue Goku and Golden Freezer. What's the real kicker here I think, is that they admit that Hulk can come back from the dead.... but Broly would vaporize him so their wouldn't be anything left to come back TO. Tactics was ignored, and they stated its a crapshoot on which Hulk would be incharge of the fight, but the result would be the same. Funny that they mention casually that Broly can break universes and even split dimensions, but they danced around Supes.

Spoiler: Next Time

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March 7 2021, no idea who the fight is but it looks like Hulk wasn't the only one getting a rematch cause Cloud was spotted.

[Rater202]

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For the record, no, destroying the Hulk utterly would not be an effective way to prevent him from coming back to life.

It was established back when Maestro first showed up that the Hulk could be vamourized and scattered across the cosmos and would eventually come back, and that was well before "The Hulk comes back come Nightfall, or instantly at night" power was developed.

Short of sealing shut Banner's Green Door, nothing can stop him from coming back to life. And Broly ain't no avatar of Cosmic Mega Satan.

[HolyDraconus]

Spoiler

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For the record, no, destroying the Hulk utterly would not be an effective way to prevent him from coming back to life.

It was established back when Maestro first showed up that the Hulk could be vamourized and scattered across the cosmos and would eventually come back, and that was well before "The Hulk comes back come Nightfall, or instantly at night" power was developed.

Short of sealing shut Banner's Green Door, nothing can stop him from coming back to life. And Broly ain't no avatar of Cosmic Mega Satan.

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They mentioned Maestro and still said it didn't matter. As in, there would be nothing TO scatter.

[Dragonus45]

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For the record, no, destroying the Hulk utterly would not be an effective way to prevent him from coming back to life.

It was established back when Maestro first showed up that the Hulk could be vamourized and scattered across the cosmos and would eventually come back, and that was well before "The Hulk comes back come Nightfall, or instantly at night" power was developed.

Short of sealing shut Banner's Green Door, nothing can stop him from coming back to life. And Broly ain't no avatar of Cosmic Mega Satan.

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They mentioned Maestro and still said it didn't matter. As in, there would be nothing TO scatter.

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Yea I get where they are coming from with that but the Green Door shenanigans probably don't really care if you literally actually totally destroy the gamma mutate in question as opposed to just turn them into component atoms. Not that it matters, Broly could probably punch a hole in reality, travel to the Below-Place, and then beat the Hulk to death again a second time down there before finally leaving and closing the Green Door behind him. This answer just felt like a shortcut. A weird one though since I could swear it was in the rules at some point that resurrective immortality didn't count unless it was close to instant for decided a winner.

[Traab]

Honestly, unless he comes right back like he did during the fight, it doesnt matter if eventually he manages to reform, it counts for the sake of this battle. I cant find it in me to disagree with this outcome as they had reasonable figures to bring up. Like yes the hulk has infinite potential power, but he doesnt ramp to infinity ever so far as we have seen. All his fights end one way or the other long before then. And while it was some transitive property, at least it was a direct comparison when they showed how even against someone capable of obliterating the universe thousands of times over broly still tanked blows on that level without bleeding, let alone exploding. Which was well beyond the best we have ever seen from the hulk. So speaking as someone who is admittedly not a superfan of either character, the outcome made sense.

[TeChameleon]

Yeh, I'm not gonna quibble about the result between Broly and Hulk. Made sense, pretty much.

The Hulk is at one of those weird places where there really aren't a lot of good matchups for him; kind of like Spider-Man, he occupies an odd, nebulous tier that is way above a lot of the opponents that are theoretically more or less on the same power level as him... but the next tier up can squash him like a bug.

[Traab]

Yeh, I'm not gonna quibble about the result between Broly and Hulk. Made sense, pretty much.

The Hulk is at one of those weird places where there really aren't a lot of good matchups for him; kind of like Spider-Man, he occupies an odd, nebulous tier that is way above a lot of the opponents that are theoretically more or less on the same power level as him... but the next tier up can squash him like a bug.

The worst part is, at his peak he is on that tier where numbers dont really matter much because now we are talking about breaking reality, or the multiverse, or multiple multiverses etc. Where we go from, "This guy pumps out 15 octillion tons of tnt" to "And this version can not only obliterate all of reality so hard its erased retroactively somehow, he can survive that force being reflected back at him. Again, somehow" Where its "Whose Line Is It Anyway?" where everything is made up and the points dont matter.

[Anteros]

I don't disagree with their result, but one of their arguments against Hulk was "you can't guarantee he'll have the genius personality in charge"

I thought the whole point was to take characters at their peak? Even when they get the answer right they're still so wildly incompetent that they can't manage to follow their own rules.

[Dragonus45]

I don't disagree with their result, but one of their arguments against Hulk was "you can't guarantee he'll have the genius personality in charge"

I thought the whole point was to take characters at their peak? Even when they get the answer right they're still so wildly incompetent that they can't manage to follow their own rules.

Peak is a weird concept with Hulks though. More then a few versions have presented the idea that a lot of the smarter version were weakened by a lack of single mindedness and the like. And the statement “hulk has lots of personalities and frankly which one was up at bat is both a crapshoot and wouldn’t change anything anyways” is pretty fair with a character with Hulks unique mental state.

[HolyDraconus]

Peak is a weird concept with Hulks though. More then a few versions have presented the idea that a lot of the smarter version were weakened by a lack of single mindedness and the like. And the statement “hulk has lots of personalities and frankly which one was up at bat is both a crapshoot and wouldn’t change anything anyways” is pretty fair with a character with Hulks unique mental state.

To add on to this, both Goku and Vegeta are supposed to be martial arts prodigies, yet Broly shrugged off what they individually threw at him during the fight, and worse, was adapting and utilizing their techniques for his own as the battle progressed. Smart Hulk would at best have a slight short advantage before Broly adapted to that.

[Anteros]

To add on to this, both Goku and Vegeta are supposed to be martial arts prodigies, yet Broly shrugged off what they individually threw at him during the fight, and worse, was adapting and utilizing their techniques for his own as the battle progressed. Smart Hulk would at best have a slight short advantage before Broly adapted to that.

Smart Hulk would realize he can't match Broly in strength and focus on calming him down or taking him down before he could escalate. I don't know if it would work, but he would approach the fight very differently than Vegeta or Goku's "I have to punch harder" strategies.

[HolyDraconus]

Smart Hulk would realize he can't match Broly in strength and focus on calming him down or taking him down before he could escalate. I don't know if it would work, but he would approach the fight very differently than Vegeta or Goku's "I have to punch harder" strategies.

Goku specifically trapped Broly in energy and tried to talk him down. That approach failed.

[Anteros]

Goku specifically trapped Broly in energy and tried to talk him down. That approach failed.

I'm not sure I buy that the tactic of de-escalating a fight won't work just because Goku of all people couldn't pull it off.

[Lemmy]

I'm not sure I buy that the tactic of de-escalating a fight won't work just because Goku of all people couldn't pull it off.

As opposed to... The Hulk, who is consistently despicted as a master diplomat who primarily resolves conflict through dialogue and negotiations?

[TeChameleon]

Having genius Hulk out could potentially take the fight in some very odd directions, though. In more recent storylines, while de-Hulked, Banner went in a very techie direction, especially forcefields and the like. So smart Hulk with Bannertech in play? Doubt it would have been enough to tilt the fight with Broly, but it would have added another (and frankly unnecessary) layer to the fight.

Think I tend to fall on the side of 'smart Hulk would have changed things, but probably not enough to matter'.

... although, thinking about it, there's a decent chance that one of the genius Hulks might have decided to see if they couldn't jab Broly with an adrenaline inhibitor or some such to see if they couldn't smack him out of the rage spiral, since... well, that's exactly the sort of thing that Banner was often working on to see if he couldn't de-Hulk himself. Doubt it'd be reliable enough to swing the fight his way consistently, but it is a potential thing, at least.