What's the worst depiction of science did you see in fiction?

[Giggling Ghast]

Well, presumably the Matrix would have had a different purpose if humans were the source of processing power, not energy.

[Ibrinar]

Oh no! People are enjoying a show that, you, personally, do not like! Do you
A) Accept that différent people like different things or
B) make a comic calling them stupid with no standards and put it on the internet?

If you chose B, congratulations! Nobody outside of your echo chamber will care!

Seriously, I enjoy SMBC, but this one isn’t the comic’s high point.

Guess when somebody recommends something with "get through the first 400 chapters and it gets good" I can't find it silly anymore. (Number isn't hyperbole but something I have seen in the last few days, readers really into reading translated chinese xianxia seem to develop lots of patience.) Honestly the comic is a pretty good description both of people recommending you go through lots of something until it finally gets good and of reading trashy stuff with elements you like. You learn to ignore the worse parts, grow fond of the characters, or well grow too annoyed and drop it. But going through enough of something not particularly good can work to a degree.

[Fyraltari]

Multiple mentions of 'Doctor Who' and no mention of the WORST science episode. I do, of course, refer to ''Kill The Moon'. Where it is revealed the moon is a giant egg that is about to hatch a butterfly type creature which will devastate Earth. Luckily the Moon hatches a creature which instantly lays an egg the exact same size and mass as the Moon (because mass just can be wished into existence right ?) and flies off

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_the_Moon

Ooh, don’t forget the giant microbes. In space.

I don't recall Weinersmith calling anyone stupid with no standards. I recall him explaining why he doesn't like a show in a humorous context. Not much different than the headbrick comic, except that you enjoy what the former skewers and (I assume) do not care about what the latter skewers.

No, the difference is that the Doctor Who comic consists purely of « this show is bad, but if you watch it long enough your standards of quality will lower ».The American football one, however, is not about the game itself or the people who enjoy it, but about the universities that spend a fortune on it for no adequate reasons and justify it by downplaying the very real danger it contains and using misleading language.

One comic is « this thing is bad and people who enjoy it are wrong » the other is « this behaviour is a dangerous and here are three arguments why ». The second comic’is a critique wrapped in a joke, the first is an insult wrapped in a joke.

Also it doesn’t have anything to do wether DW is hard or soft sci-fi so I am kind of puzzled Asnières to why you brought it up.

Guess when somebody recommends something with "get through the first 400 chapters and it gets good" I can't find it silly anymore. (Number isn't hyperbole but something I have seen in the last few days, readers really into reading translated chinese xianxia seem to develop lots of patience.) Honestly the comic is a pretty good description both of people recommending you go through lots of something until it finally gets good and of reading trashy stuff with elements you like. You learn to ignore the worse parts, grow fond of the characters, or well grow too annoyed and drop it. But going through enough of something not particularly good can work to a degree.

Thing is, most Doctor who fans will tell you that the Revival’s first season is one of the best and will actively discourage you from trying to watch all 700 episodes.
I have never met a fan claiming that it gets good once you get through X dozens of episode.

[Peelee]

No, the difference is that the Doctor Who comic consists purely of « this show is bad, but if you watch it long enough your standards of quality will lower ».The American football one, however, is not about the game itself or the people who enjoy it, but about the universities that spend a fortune on it for no adequate reasons and justify it by downplaying the very real danger it contains and using misleading language.

One comic is « this thing is bad and people who enjoy it are wrong » the other is « this behaviour is a dangerous and here are three arguments why ». The second comic’is a critique wrapped in a joke, the first is an insult wrapped in a joke.

Pretty sure the American football one is also specifically about the game itself and the people who enjoy it, and numerous other comics he has made could be read as insults wrapped in jokes if one were to be uncharitable about them all. I think this is a Chef-from-South-Park situation, really - the voice actor was fine with jokes aimed at things he did not particularly care about, but once there were jokes about things he did particularly care about, he suddenly became critical of the show.

[Rater202]

"Nuke it, it's the only way to be sure."

Unless it's explicitly the bad guy using the problem as an excuse or hoping to use the nuke to cover up evidence, chances are no, there are better options.

Let's look at Resident Evil, a franchise that uses the trope correctly.

There was a good reason to nuke Raccoon city: Between all known versions of Re2 and RE3, as well as the Outbreak games that take place in Raccoon city at the same time, it is established that the T-Virus has tainted the vast majority of the local water supply and infected most of the population. At least one zombie got out of quarantine. In addition to the zombies, there were powerful mutants, some born from the infection and some not, who were a lot harder to put down than the standard zombies: I have to imagine that people saw Nemesis Spider-Manning it's a way around the city in it's various forms in the REmake 3, or crap's sake. There were infected lions, alligators, and elephants from the zoo and those are gonna be harder... Ad finally, the T-Virus is known to infect everything, all kinds of animals and at least one kind of plant. If they'd left the city quarantined indefinitely then the possibility of mosquitos feeding on zombie blood and/or laying eggs in infected water come summon comes up... which could lead to giant mosquitos, mosquitoes that spread the virus, or god knows what else. Or if tainted water got ino the ground or, a nearby lake or river the infection could spread to a whole new city. Or worse.

It'd been weeks after the initial outbreak when the decision to nuke the city was made. By that point, the vast majority of the population was either infected or dead and anyone who reasonably could have gotten out had gotten the hell out of dodge. Even then, they gave at least 24 hours notice and aired broadcasts warning anyone who might be left to get the hell out becuase we are nuking the city and were willing to call off the nuking if a cure could be obtained.

I was impossible to contain the city indeifntly and they needed to be absolutely sure that a virus that infects everything and turns anything it infects into a man eating monster was completly sterilized.

Comparitivily: A dozen Xenomorphs? Doens't need to be nuked. Pautbreak of romero style shambling zombiens who don't infect everything and don't have super hunmn strength and go down to bullets? Doesn't need to be nuked. Especially if the infection doesn't spread through bite.

If it has to go through effort to spread the infection or parasite and dies to normal bullets, nuking it will cause more damage than it could possibly do in the time it would take a couple of strike teams to clear out the infestation.

[Fyraltari]

Pretty sure the American football one is also specifically about the game itself and the people who enjoy it, and numerous other comics he has made could be read as insults wrapped in jokes if one were to be uncharitable about them all. I think this is a Chef-from-South-Park situation, really - the voice actor was fine with jokes aimed at things he did not particularly care about, but once there were jokes about things he did particularly care about, he suddenly became critical of the show.

I don't know if he made several about American Football, I know only this one, which is not about the game (how enjoyable it is, the rules, etc) but about the university culture surrounding it.

Also, you failed to adress the other point I made: one comic has actual fact-based arguments (the money spent, the damage done), the other is just "this show is bad".

You claiming that I am being unfair doesn't make it so. Because I am fine with people making fun of things I like, I make fun of things I like all the time. But there's a different between making fun of something and telling the people who enjoy that thing that they have no taste.

[Rater202]

I think this is a Chef-from-South-Park situation, really - the voice actor was fine with jokes aimed at things he did not particularly care about, but once there were jokes about things he did particularly care about, he suddenly became critical of the show.

Uhh. This isn't exactly accurate.

I don't want to get too into it becuase of the forum's rules on religion and politics and stuff, but Issac Hayes was supposedly fine with the jokes aimed at his particular group... Until he had a really bad stroke and was given a script to read while not quite in his right mind.

According to Hayes' son, Hayes' was in no condition to be taken serious and was just saying what he was told to say when he made those criticisms, and he didn't so much quit the show so much as people from his group quit for him and made threats to get Hayes' contract terminated.

There was a reason why the episode where they killed off Chef depicted him as being brainwashed by the group he fell into.

It's actually a messed up and very sad stroy.

[Peelee]

Uhh. This isn't exactly accurate.

I don't want to get too into it becuase of the forum's rules on religion and politics and stuff, but Issac Hayes was supposedly fine with the jokes aimed at his particular group... Until he had a really bad stroke and was given a script to read while not quite in his right mind.

According to Hayes' son, Hayes' was in no condition to be taken serious and was just saying what he was told to say when he made those criticisms, and he didn't so much quit the show so much as people from his group quit for him and he wasn't in a position to argue.

There was a reason why the episode where they killed off Chef depicted him as being brainwashed by the group he fell into.

I originally had a parentheses in which I noted that I would much rather use a different analogy but couldn't think of one offhand, and then replaced it with just being vague enough about it. However, I would still prefer a different analogy, for the reasons you note (which I was not aware of, thanks!).

I don't know if he made several about American Football, I know only this one, which is not about the game (how enjoyable it is, the rules, etc) but about the university culture surrounding it.

Also, you failed to adress the other point I made: one comic has actual fact-based arguments (the money spent, the damage done), the other is just "this show is bad".

You claiming that I am being unfair doesn't make it so. Because I am fine with people making fun of things I like, I make fun of things I like all the time. But there's a different between making fun of something and telling the people who enjoy that thing that they have no taste.

First off, that one is obviously about badminton. Second off, that comic is a complete strawman argument by its very nature. Third off, the comic explicitly talks about issues with the sport and the viewers.

And yet you don't seem to have any issues with any of those issues. But you dislike when he makes a comic about Doctor Who. He's also taken on Superman no small amount of times, do you take issue with those? The Batman ones? Any of the ones where he basically points out how something is ridiculous in his opinion?

[Rater202]

I originally had a parentheses in which I noted that I would much rather use a different analogy but couldn't think of one offhand, and then replaced it with just being vague enough about it. However, I would still prefer a different analogy, for the reasons you note (which I was not aware of, thanks!).

It's actually really sad. On first viewing the episode looks petty and spiteful but when you know the whole story it becomes clear that Parker and Stone were just expressing their anger and grief over losing a friend becuase a third party took advantage of him when he was vulnerable.

[Peelee]

It's actually really sad. On first viewing the episode looks petty and spiteful but when you know the whole story it becomes clear that Parker and Stone were just expressing their anger and grief over losing a friend becuase a third party took advantage of him when he was vulnerable.

Sounds like it. Also is vaguely remniscient of the McDonalds Coffee court case in which a party with vast coffers can control the narrative for the general public.

[Sapphire Guard]

"Nuke it, it's the only way to be sure."

Unless it's explicitly the bad guy using the problem as an excuse or hoping to use the nuke to cover up evidence, chances are no, there are better options.

Let's look at Resident Evil, a franchise that uses the trope correctly.

There was a good reason to nuke Raccoon city: Between all known versions of Re2 and RE3, as well as the Outbreak games that take place in Raccoon city at the same time, it is established that the T-Virus has tainted the vast majority of the local water supply and infected most of the population. At least one zombie got out of quarantine. In addition to the zombies, there were powerful mutants, some born from the infection and some not, who were a lot harder to put down than the standard zombies: I have to imagine that people saw Nemesis Spider-Manning it's a way around the city in it's various forms in the REmake 3, or crap's sake. There were infected lions, alligators, and elephants from the zoo and those are gonna be harder... Ad finally, the T-Virus is known to infect everything, all kinds of animals and at least one kind of plant. If they'd left the city quarantined indefinitely then the possibility of mosquitos feeding on zombie blood and/or laying eggs in infected water come summon comes up... which could lead to giant mosquitos, mosquitoes that spread the virus, or god knows what else. Or if tainted water got ino the ground or, a nearby lake or river the infection could spread to a whole new city. Or worse.

It'd been weeks after the initial outbreak when the decision to nuke the city was made. By that point, the vast majority of the population was either infected or dead and anyone who reasonably could have gotten out had gotten the hell out of dodge. Even then, they gave at least 24 hours notice and aired broadcasts warning anyone who might be left to get the hell out becuase we are nuking the city and were willing to call off the nuking if a cure could be obtained.

I was impossible to contain the city indeifntly and they needed to be absolutely sure that a virus that infects everything and turns anything it infects into a man eating monster was completly sterilized.

Comparitivily: A dozen Xenomorphs? Doens't need to be nuked. Pautbreak of romero style shambling zombiens who don't infect everything and don't have super hunmn strength and go down to bullets? Doesn't need to be nuked. Especially if the infection doesn't spread through bite.

If it has to go through effort to spread the infection or parasite and dies to normal bullets, nuking it will cause more damage than it could possibly do in the time it would take a couple of strike teams to clear out the infestation.

Agreed on every point.

[Lord Raziere]

I have never met a fan claiming that it gets good once you get through X dozens of episode.

Well here is the thing: your talking about a western franchise. those reboot and do soft resets all the time. The Doctor's regeneration is specifically designed so that there is multiple jumping on points without worrying about what happened before, while also not really destroying continuity like DC constantly does.

when you get into anime, the situations different: in Naruto for example its one continuous journey and story for about 600+ chapters. the whole point is show this one character growing from an incompetent weak child to competent powerful adult. meaning you can't do the same reset thing you can do with many western characters, because those are often written in a static archetypical manner where all their childhood growth already happened and the story is about whatever they are doing when they're competent adults, and when thats done you can snap them back to their original competent adult status because Batman, The Doctor, Superman and so on we're originally written as competent adults. Naruto on the other starts off as incompetent weak child and his big powerful feats are end-game story stuff as well as his story being resolved by then. him resetting would mean resetting him back to being a child. therefore instead of doing that...they make an anime about his son, which will probably be just as long. the only anime character I've seen to be written like people like Superman or the Doctor is Ash Ketchum and people hate ash ketchum, because is constantly an incompetent child and being reset back to being one.

I imagine the same problem holds true for xianxia: the story is probably about how the protagonist grows and becomes competent with his power while also growing up a little, with their mastery tied to their character growth, because the story is about the character growing more competent, powerful and developing as a person. resetting is not an option because....that invalidates the entire story. The Doctor's stories on the other hand aren't tied to his growth as a person in particular: they're tied to him experiencing certain situations and how he deals with them whether he grows from it or not. his competence does not change.

Sorry but I don't pay attention to the science much in fiction to get angry over it...

[Fyraltari]

First off, that one is obviously about badminton. Second off, that comic is a complete strawman argument by its very nature. Third off, the comic explicitly talks about issues with the sport and the viewers.
And yet you don't seem to have any issues with any of those issues.

If you say so. The point remains however, that it goes further than "this thing is not enjoyable and the people who enjoy it are wrong".

But you dislike when he makes a comic about Doctor Who. He's also taken on Superman no small amount of times, do you take issue with those? The Batman ones?

I recall a number of comics where he makes fun of the characters of Batman and Superman. I recall none where he insults people for enjoying these characters and there stories. In fact he seems to enjoy them too, from what I can tell. Do you have a specific comic in mind that consists purely of "this comic book/movie/whatever is dumb and people liking it are wrong"? Because if he did, it would have been unbecoming of him, just as if he'd made the same about things I dislike such as association football, Twilight,South Park or the Matrix movies.

Any of the ones where he basically points out how something is ridiculous in his opinion?

I have no problem with him making fun of things he finds ridiculous. I just think that insulting people for liking a show you dislike is a complete waste of time.

This kind of negativity is all too common and the internet where people thinks it's acceptable to mock people for reading Twilight or watching Big bang Theory or whatever.

Frankly this whole thing is a non-issue, Weinersmith has made a comic that I think was bad. That doesn't invalidate all is other comics nor does it diminish my enjoyment of them nor does it make him a bad person or an unfunny comedian. Nobody hits the mark 100% of the time or with 100% of their audience.

[Psyren]

IIRC originally the humans were supposed to be the processing power got the Matrix, not the energy source, but some high-up thought that would confuse people and wanted it changed.

I can't ever recall a source for that, though, so feel free to disbelieve.

I had heard about the "neural net" justification too - but battery is what we got in the movie.

With that idea, why bother with humans in the first place? If the point of the farms is to keep up the Matrix that is used to keep the people in farms, seems like you could do without either ;)

Indeed, though this could be handwaved by simply making them shackled AI. If their purpose was something like World Peace, keeping all humans comatose in a dream world for eternity would achieve that.

[Traab]

"Nuke it, it's the only way to be sure."

Unless it's explicitly the bad guy using the problem as an excuse or hoping to use the nuke to cover up evidence, chances are no, there are better options.

Let's look at Resident Evil, a franchise that uses the trope correctly.

There was a good reason to nuke Raccoon city: Between all known versions of Re2 and RE3, as well as the Outbreak games that take place in Raccoon city at the same time, it is established that the T-Virus has tainted the vast majority of the local water supply and infected most of the population. At least one zombie got out of quarantine. In addition to the zombies, there were powerful mutants, some born from the infection and some not, who were a lot harder to put down than the standard zombies: I have to imagine that people saw Nemesis Spider-Manning it's a way around the city in it's various forms in the REmake 3, or crap's sake. There were infected lions, alligators, and elephants from the zoo and those are gonna be harder... Ad finally, the T-Virus is known to infect everything, all kinds of animals and at least one kind of plant. If they'd left the city quarantined indefinitely then the possibility of mosquitos feeding on zombie blood and/or laying eggs in infected water come summon comes up... which could lead to giant mosquitos, mosquitoes that spread the virus, or god knows what else. Or if tainted water got ino the ground or, a nearby lake or river the infection could spread to a whole new city. Or worse.

It'd been weeks after the initial outbreak when the decision to nuke the city was made. By that point, the vast majority of the population was either infected or dead and anyone who reasonably could have gotten out had gotten the hell out of dodge. Even then, they gave at least 24 hours notice and aired broadcasts warning anyone who might be left to get the hell out becuase we are nuking the city and were willing to call off the nuking if a cure could be obtained.

I was impossible to contain the city indeifntly and they needed to be absolutely sure that a virus that infects everything and turns anything it infects into a man eating monster was completly sterilized.

Comparitivily: A dozen Xenomorphs? Doens't need to be nuked. Pautbreak of romero style shambling zombiens who don't infect everything and don't have super hunmn strength and go down to bullets? Doesn't need to be nuked. Especially if the infection doesn't spread through bite.

If it has to go through effort to spread the infection or parasite and dies to normal bullets, nuking it will cause more damage than it could possibly do in the time it would take a couple of strike teams to clear out the infestation.

I agree with the resident evil argument, that was well done. I disagree with aliens. Keep in mind, nuking the site from orbit was suggested AFTER the marine kill squad tried and failed to contain the xenomorphs. The risk of further loss of life due to the presence of DOZENS of xenos, not just a dozen, plus further life lost in an effort to scour every square inch of this giant facility to find all the aliens AND eggs so the process cant repeat itself later, means just obliterating the entire infestation so nothing can survive is the safe option. And keep in mind its being suggested by the already traumatized ripley after facing even more aliens and seeing the marines get their butts kicked. She is neither military nor is she a company woman so her suggestion comes from not giving two wet farts about the bottom line of the company and wanting to take the simplest, safest course of action.

[Peelee]

If you say so. The point remains however, that it goes further than "this thing is not enjoyable and the people who enjoy it are wrong".


I recall a number of comics where he makes fun of the characters of Batman and Superman. I recall none where he insults people for enjoying these characters and there stories. In fact he seems to enjoy them too, from what I can tell. Do you have a specific comic in mind that consists purely of "this comic book/movie/whatever is dumb and people liking it are wrong"? Because if he did, it would have been unbecoming of him, just as if he'd made the same about things I dislike such as association football, Twilight,South Park or the Matrix movies.

I have no problem with him making fun of things he finds ridiculous. I just think that insulting people for liking a show you dislike is a complete waste of time.

This kind of negativity is all too common and the internet where people thinks it's acceptable to mock people for reading Twilight or watching Big bang Theory or whatever.

Frankly this whole thing is a non-issue, Weinersmith has made a comic that I think was bad. That doesn't invalidate all is other comics nor does it diminish my enjoyment of them nor does it make him a bad person or an unfunny comedian. Nobody hits the mark 100% of the time or with 100% of their audience.

Far be it from me to say he's thrown up nothing but gold. I'm not saying you shouldn't like some of his comics, I'm saying that the reason you're giving for not liking a specific comic is... interesting. He's not mocking fans. He's mocking the show, using two people talking about it as the medium to make the joke. He's not saying "fans are stupid for liking this." Except maybe the fans who act like the ones he is portraying. If that is not how you act, then I cannot see why you are upset about it.

In a similar vein, Ryan Johnson and several other notable people have gone off on how certain detractors of The Last Jedi are trolls and man-babies. I disliked The Last Jedi, yet I never felt like he was aiming any invective at me.

I had heard about the "neural net" justification too - but battery is what we got in the movie.

Oh, no argument that the "battery" part that made the cut was stupid. But it could have actually made sense.

[Fyraltari]

Far be it from me to say he's thrown up nothing but gold. I'm not saying you shouldn't like some of his comics, I'm saying that the reason you're giving for not liking a specific comic is... interesting. He's not mocking fans. He's mocking the show, using two people talking about it as the medium to make the joke. He's not saying "fans are stupid for liking this." Except maybe the fans who act like the ones he is portraying. If that is not how you act, then I cannot see why you are upset about it.

Ah, I think I see the disconnect. Let's dissect the frog, shall we?
we have two character one who is apparently watching DW for the first time and one who is apparently showing it to her. The first woman's initial reaction is "this show is terrible" which is answered with "of course it is." Stating that the bad quality of the show is not a question of opinion. The next two panels consist of the long time fan stating "You have to let it grind you down for a while. Let it lower your standards for plot, character, dialog and acting." Followed by stereotypical brainwashing speak ("Yes. Forget my child, all will be well.") This is stating that the show has subpar writing and acting and that the only way to enjoy it, is to have low expectation of those things. The next panel is the 10th Doctor providing an (exaggerated) example of the bad writing displayed by the show by stating "We can time-travel directly into the plot hole" not meant to represent any particular moment of the show but a "typical" resolution of an episode of the show. (The "" are here because a disspointingly high number of episodes don't actually use the time machine to solve the problem at hand.) The last panel consists of the new fan praising the cleverness of the bad writing with a pained expression on her face her standards for cleverness having been lowered by exposure to DW. The votey is one of the two (I'm actually not sure which) demanding "all of it." I'm guessing this is conveying the complete change of mind of the new fan?

So, what is Weinersmith saying here? That DW has bad writing, plot, dialog and characters, that, on some level, all fans of the show know this but watching the show has lowered their expectation of quality and that that is the only way to enjoy that show. So yes, he is definitely mocking the fans. And no, he isn't mocking some subgroup that has this behaviour rather than the whole fandom because if that was what he'd have contrasted that behaviour with that of more reasonable fans.

Like the second-to-last panel on itself is a good joke, and if the entire comic had been a parody of the show itself it probably would have been good. There's plenty to mock: the mary-sueness of the Doctor, the Britishness of absolutely everything, the weirdness of the plot, the bad special effects and costumes, etc. But the comic doesn't focus on the show, not even to say why it's bad, it focuses on the fans and judges them for liking the show.


Edit: If you have an alternate reading of that comic, I'm interested in reading it.

[Peelee]

Ah, I think I see the disconnect. Let's dissect the frog, shall we?
we have two character one who is apparently watching DW for the first time and one who is apparently showing it to her. The first woman's initial reaction is "this show is terrible" which is answered with "of course it is." Stating that the bad quality of the show is not a question of opinion. The next two panels consist of the long time fan stating "You have to let it grind you down for a while. Let it lower your standards for plot, character, dialog and acting." Followed by stereotypical brainwashing speak ("Yes. Forget my child, all will be well.") This is stating that the show has subpar writing and acting and that the only way to enjoy it, is to have low expectation of those things. The next panel is the 10th Doctor providing an (exaggerated) example of the bad writing displayed by the show by stating "We can time-travel directly into the plot hole" not meant to represent any particular moment of the show but a "typical" resolution of an episode of the show. (The "" are here because a disspointingly high number of episodes don't actually use the time machine to solve the problem at hand.) The last panel consists of the new fan praising the cleverness of the bad writing with a pained expression on her face her standards for cleverness having been lowered by exposure to DW. The votey is one of the two (I'm actually not sure which) demanding "all of it." I'm guessing this is conveying the complete change of mind of the new fan?

So, what is Weinersmith saying here? That DW has bad writing, plot, dialog and characters, that, on some level, all fans of the show know this but watching the show has lowered their expectation of quality and that that is the only way to enjoy that show. So yes, he is definitely mocking the fans. And no, he isn't mocking some subgroup that has this behaviour rather than the whole fandom because if that was what he'd have contrasted that behaviour with that of more reasonable fans.

Like the second-to-last panel on itself is a good joke, and if the entire comic had been a parody of the show itself it probably would have been good. There's plenty to mock: the mary-sueness of the Doctor, the Britishness of absolutely everything, the weirdness of the plot, the bad special effects and costumes, etc. But the comic doesn't focus on the show, not even to say why it's bad, it focuses on the fans and judges them for liking the show.


Edit: If you have an alternate reading of that comic, I'm interested in reading it.

I hate Romeo and Juliet. I think it's terrible. I had someone studying for an English degree, who loved Shakespeare, say, "of course it's terrible, that's the point!" I was able to divorce that one person from all other Shakespeare afficianados who believe that Romeo and Juliet is not terrible. Similarly, I am able to divorce the avid watcher in the comic, who exists solely to espouse Weinersmith's point of view, from all other Doctot Who fans.

[Fyraltari]

I hate Romeo and Juliet. I think it's terrible. I had someone studying for an English degree, who loved Shakespeare, say, "of course it's terrible, that's the point!" I was able to divorce that one person from all other Shakespeare afficianados who believe that Romeo and Juliet is not terrible. Similarly, I am able to divorce the avid watcher in the comic, who exists solely to espouse Weinersmith's point of view, from all other Doctot Who fans.

But that was an actual person you encounter in reality. That wasn't a fictional character in a comic trying to make a point. If you make a character that you define as belonging to a group and give that character characteristics you are implying that these characteristics are true of every member of that group. Especially when the situation that character is presented in is initiating another character into the group by transmitting these characterisitcs to them.

By the logic you present one could look at WWI French propaganda posters like say this one

Spoiler

Show

and claim that the artist isn't trying to portray all Germans as a people of subhuman monsters because you can, without any prompt from the work itself, divorce the real German persons from the one who exists solely to push a political agenda.

[Peelee]

But that was an actual person you encounter in reality. That wasn't a fictional character in a comic trying to make a point. If you make a character that you define as belonging to a group and give that character characteristics you are implying that these characteristics are true of every member of that group. Especially when the situation that character is presented in is initiating another character into the group by transmitting these characterisitcs to them.

By the logic you present one could look at WWI French propaganda posters like say this one

Spoiler

Show

and claim that the artist isn't trying to portray all Germans as a people of subhuman monsters because you can, without any prompt from the work itself, divorce the real German persons from the one who exists solely to push a political agenda.

How crowded do you want the comic to be? Would you like a disclaimer on it? Imean, you're comparing a comic to a propaganda poster. The two serve radically different functions. Dude thought "hey, i can make a joke about Doctor Who" and then drew it. There's no hidden agenda here.

Though I have to note that there's a good chance the hovertext was spot-on.

[Fyraltari]

How crowded do you want the comic to be? Would you like a disclaimer on it? Imean, you're comparing a comic to a propaganda poster. The two serve radically different functions. Dude thought "hey, i can make a joke about Doctor Who" and then drew it. There's no hidden agenda here.

Oh no, I agree the agenda isn't hidden at all. It's pretty clear that the point is calling DW fans people with no standards who like a bad show.

And no these don't serve two radically different functions: they're both caricatures, one's political and one is about a show the artist doesn't like that's the only difference. Caricature is very simple, you portray a member of your target group as being bad and by the simple fact of that character being the sole representative of their group you send the message that all members of that group are bad in the same way. Like that's the entire basis of representation.

Though I have to note that there's a good chance the hovertext was spot-on.

Maybe so. Though, frankly, I'd side with Weinersmith over anyone writing hatemail over comic on the internet any day.

[Keltest]

Oh no, I agree the agenda isn't hidden at all. It's pretty clear that the point is calling DW fans people with no standards who like a bad show.

And no these don't serve two radically different functions: they're both caricatures, one's political and one is about a show the artist doesn't like that's the only difference. Caricature is very simple, you portray a member of your target group as being bad and by the simple fact of that character being the sole representative of their group you send the message that all members of that group are bad in the same way. Like that's the entire basis of representation.


Maybe so. Though, frankly, I'd side with Weinersmith over anyone writing hatemail over comic on the internet any day.

I think its pretty clear that theyre cracking a joke about how they arent impressed with Doctor Who.

I am deeply curious as to why you are choosing to read this particular comic so much more literally than any of the others. SMBC is not a terribly serious comic on the best of days. Why would they suddenly be declaring their opinion to be the only valid one?

[Peelee]

Oh no, I agree the agenda isn't hidden at all. It's pretty clear that the point is calling DW fans people with no standards who like a bad show.

According to you. I see no such thing, clearly or otherwise.

And no these don't serve two radically different functions

Propaganda is designed to influence people's beliefs in a specific and particular way. Comics are used to make people laugh. Sometimes comics can be a medium by which to tell a story where the author wants to make statements about the world, such as Order of the Stick, but once-a-day comics with no overarching storylines and no repeat or returning characters makes that remarkably difficult. SMBC has, on occasion, done this, but every time it has been abundantly clear - which is to say, inarguable, because in all the ones I can think of, the author effectively breaks the fourth wall and talks directly to the audience as himself in such cases.

[Fyraltari]

I think its pretty clear that theyre cracking a joke about how they arent impressed with Doctor Who.

I am deeply curious as to why you are choosing to read this particular comic so much more literally than any of the others. SMBC is not a terribly serious comic on the best of days. Why would they suddenly be declaring their opinion to be the only valid one?

I am not deniying that this is a joke. I'm just saying that it's a mean-spirited one. And the thing is, it's not actually calling out anything about the show, it's just declaring it bad in general and leaving it at that. It's basically the "stop having fun guys" meme in comic form.

For example this comic makes fun of a particular argument, but it does so by pointing out why the argument is wrong.

EDIT:

According to you. I see no such thing, clearly or otherwise.

What do you see, then? What do you think is the joke?

Propaganda is designed to influence people's beliefs in a specific and particular way. Comics are used to make people laugh. Sometimes comics can be a medium by which to tell a story where the author wants to make statements about the world, such as Order of the Stick, but once-a-day comics with no overarching storylines and no repeat or returning characters makes that remarkably difficult. SMBC has, on occasion, done this, but every time it has been abundantly clear - which is to say, inarguable, because in all the ones I can think of, the author effectively breaks the fourth wall and talks directly to the audience as himself in such cases.

See above.

EDIT2: For clarification, the propaganda comic was meant as an example of the mecanism of the joke, caricature, not of its goal.

[Keltest]

I am not deniying that this is a joke. I'm just saying that it's a mean-spirited one. And the thing is, it's not actually calling out anything about the show, it's just declaring it bad in general and leaving it at that. It's basically the "stop having fun guys" meme in comic form.

For example this comic makes fun of a particular argument, but it does so by pointing out why the argument is wrong.

Im pretty sure i saw them calling out the use of ridiculous technobabble to solve a problem that, when critically examined, either makes no sense or doesn't do what its supposed to do.

And they arent wrong. Doctor Who is very much a "turn off your brain to be entertained" show, which doesnt strike me as terribly offensive in and of itself unless you already thing that such media is badwrongfun.

[DataNinja]

Maybe not my place to chime in, but the Doctor Who one did definitely feel... a little rather mean-spirited in execution, even if that wasn't the intent. I definitely felt a little bit uncomfortable with it, at least. It did feel like it was lampooning the people as much as the product. And, I do think that's the main issue with it.

It wasn't entirely clear at first glance if it's from the place of an avid fan poking fun at their own hobby and interests, or someone just wanting to call people idiots. Given the other comics that I've read, I'd be inclined to say the former, but it just... I dunno, it feels like it misses the mark. Goes a bit too far past the playful insulting I'm used to seeing as in-jokes in communities, at least for my tastes.

[tiornys]

Not the worst in an objective sense, but in terms of a story element that threw me out of of the story so hard that I could no longer enjoy a movie that otherwise would have been entertaining? Stealth.

The premise had promise as far as relatively mindless entertainment goes: AI fighter drone goes rogue and a group of highly skilled pilots have to try to deal with it. And I can come up with all sorts of semi-plausible ways for the AI to go rogue. Foreign agents infected it with a virus? Fine. Its controllers loosen the constraints on the AI just that hair too much in response to some sort of training incident? Solid. Some random transmission ends up sending it insane? I could roll with that.

What I could not tolerate as the cause for the AI to go rogue? A bolt of lightning. Because the plane isn't basically a faraday cage. And the electronics are totally not shielded. And lightning is absolutely going to reprogram an AI instead of just frying it.

Heck, I could have gone with even this if it had fried the control module of the AI instead of somehow just scrambling it. But no. Just no.

[hungrycrow]

I agree with the resident evil argument, that was well done. I disagree with aliens. Keep in mind, nuking the site from orbit was suggested AFTER the marine kill squad tried and failed to contain the xenomorphs. The risk of further loss of life due to the presence of DOZENS of xenos, not just a dozen, plus further life lost in an effort to scour every square inch of this giant facility to find all the aliens AND eggs so the process cant repeat itself later, means just obliterating the entire infestation so nothing can survive is the safe option. And keep in mind its being suggested by the already traumatized ripley after facing even more aliens and seeing the marines get their butts kicked. She is neither military nor is she a company woman so her suggestion comes from not giving two wet farts about the bottom line of the company and wanting to take the simplest, safest course of action.

Ripley also knows there are people that want to study the xenomorphs. If they didn't deal with the situation, there was every chance that some other moron would come and try to bring the xenomorphs offworld, giving them a chance to reach a more populated area. And of course that's exactly what ended up happening.

[Brother Oni]

Comparitivily: A dozen Xenomorphs? Doens't need to be nuked.

If it has to go through effort to spread the infection or parasite and dies to normal bullets, nuking it will cause more damage than it could possibly do in the time it would take a couple of strike teams to clear out the infestation.

To support the other comments, it wasn't a dozen xenomorphs - they estimate a 30% casualty rate during the initial battle of Hadley's Hope, with all the other colonist carried off to become hosts. Population of Hadley's Hope was 158, so 70% of 157 (minus Newt) gives you somewhere in the ballpark of 110 xenomorphs, with an unknown number of eggs, and the hypothesis of the queen not confirmed yet.

The question to nuke or not to nuke is moot though - sometime during their fortification of Operations, Bishop noticed the colony's nuclear reactor was damaged (either through neglect or by weapons fire) as the emergency venting was visible. They had a couple of hours left, which expedited Bishop's trip out to the colony's antenna to remote pilot the remaining dropship down to pick the survivors up.

The colony was getting nuked, one way or another.

[Rater202]

To support the other comments, it wasn't a dozen xenomorphs - they estimate a 30% casualty rate during the initial battle of Hadley's Hope, with all the other colonist carried off to become hosts. Population of Hadley's Hope was 158, so 70% of 157 (minus Newt) gives you somewhere in the ballpark of 110 xenomorphs, with an unknown number of eggs, and the hypothesis of the queen not confirmed yet.

The question to nuke or not to nuke is moot though - sometime during their fortification of Operations, Bishop noticed the colony's nuclear reactor was damaged (either through neglect or by weapons fire) as the emergency venting was visible. They had a couple of hours left, which expedited Bishop's trip out to the colony's antenna to remote pilot the remaining dropship down to pick the survivors up.

The colony was getting nuked, one way or another.

There's some expanded universe stuff where nukes get considered way too early. I used the line from the movie but I was talking about the trope in general.

Of the top of my head, I don't think nuking the town in th second AVP movie was necessary. Granted, in that case the Government was being depicted as evil (deliberately corralling civilians into the blast, anyone?)

Oh, while we're at it: The New PRedator Movie? With the new faction of predators that genetically enhance themselves with traits extracted from their favorite prey?

Autism doesn't work that way. I'd forgive the Predator for not knowing better, since from his PoV it's just a kid who figured out how technology far more advanced than his planet has access to. Super intelligence would be the default assumption, but a human scientist should freaking no better that Autism is absolutely ancient an therefore logically can't be the next step in evolution, and likewise while Autism could help in a survival scenario... Only if you're a lot higher functioning than that boy is depicted as being.