Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...

[Kruploy]

...with nothin' but a bouncing ball?
Hehehe.
Good times.
Hoping to see something similarly stylish in the upcoming conflict.

[dancrilis]

I remember - think it was the last time he killed anyone.

[Jason]

You mean a bouncy ball and an 8th level spell.

[dancrilis]

You mean a bouncy ball and an 8th level spell.

It is possible that there was no 8th level spell and he simply bluffed them.

[Babale]

It is possible that there was no 8th level spell and he simply bluffed them.

What? No it isn't. They had swirly eyes.

[Worldsong]

It is possible that there was no 8th level spell and he simply bluffed them.

Sorcerer Lich secretly makes the most epic Bluff check in the history of the setting and convinces paladins that they're homicidal lunatics now.

[understatement]

It is possible that there was no 8th level spell and he simply bluffed them.

He explicitly said he inscribed a Symbol of Insanity on it.

I mean, he could be bluffing about that too, but he might also be Redcloak's niece.

That'd be kind of funny in a seriously morbid way.

[dancrilis]

What? No it isn't. They had swirly eyes.

Epic Bluff can instill a suggestion (similiar to the spell) in the target - and the suggestion spell does result in swirly eyes.

That he scribbled a symbol of insanity on a super bouncy ball is a believable suggestion.

[Worldsong]

Epic Bluff can instill a suggestion (similiar to the spell) in the target - and the suggestion spell does result in swirly eyes.

That he scribbled a symbol of insanity on a super bouncy ball is a believable suggestion.

For Epic Bluff to be capable of doing that the paladins would have to consider mindlessly slaughtering each other a reasonable idea.

Also I don't think Xykon ever suggested that they slaughter each other, he just threw the ball and told them there's a Symbol of Insanity inscribed on it.

[dancrilis]

For Epic Bluff to be capable of doing that the paladins would have to consider mindlessly slaughtering each other a reasonable idea.

Also I don't think Xykon ever suggested that they slaughter each other, he just threw the ball and told them there's a Symbol of Insanity inscribed on it.

Exactly he suggested that they were under the influence of a Symbol of Insanity - and they believed him.

Edit: Assuming he used bluff rather then the actual spell.

[Worldsong]

Exactly he suggested that they were under the influence of a Symbol of Insanity - and they believed him.

Edit: Assuming he used bluff rather then the actual spell.

I think the DM would applaud your creativity and then slamdunk the idea by stating that even if someone believes they're insane the fact that they're not actually insane means their actions are still limited by what they'd consider reasonable while sane.

[Jason]

The paladins weren't all self-righteous either. O-Chul certainly isn't, and he was there.

[Cazero]

Xykon told a whooping three paladins he scribbled a symbol of insanity, then the fifty who didn't hear a thing of what he just said started killing each other. The bluff hyothesis isn't plausible.

[dancrilis]

The paladins weren't all self-righteous either. O-Chul certainly isn't, and he was there.

Xykon broke a window and asked for a donation - and O-Chul responded by directing a bunch of guards to kill him, and I get the impression that O-Chul has never reflected on how disproportionate that response was - which speaks to some self-righteousness at any rate.

Xykon told a whooping three paladins he scribbled a symbol of insanity, then the fifty who didn't hear a thing of what he just said started killing each other. The bluff hyothesis isn't plausible.

Wisdom is important for paladins and Listen is based on Wisdom - even if they were 100 feet away from Xykon they would only need a DC20 check to hear what he said clearly, and the room doesn't seem 100ft long, many of them could have heard him simply by taking 10 on their listen check.

[understatement]

Xykon broke a window and asked for a donation - and O-Chul responded by directing a bunch of guards to kill him, and I get the impression that O-Chul has never reflected on how disproportionate that response was - which speaks to some self-righteousness at any rate.

When one sees an undead necromancer fly in, knowing that he is planning to harness a Gate that could blow Azure City to pieces, it is common sense to kill him before he gets a bouncy ball off.

[Peelee]

Xykon broke a window and asked for a donation - and O-Chul responded by directing a bunch of guards to kill him, and I get the impression that O-Chul has never reflected on how disproportionate that response was - which speaks to some self-righteousness at any rate.



Wisdom is important for paladins and Listen is based on Wisdom - even if they were 100 feet away from Xykon they would only need a DC20 check to hear what he said clearly, and the room doesn't seem 100ft long, many of them could have heard him simply by taking 10 on their listen check.

I find your claim that the paladins have Wisdom and yet would not pass a Sense Motive check on a thinly-veiled threat made by the commander of the army that is currently invading their city... questionable, let's say.

[dancrilis]

When one sees an undead necromancer fly in, knowing that he is planning to harness a Gate that could blow Azure City to pieces, it is common sense to kill him before he gets a bouncy ball off.

Would you say:

When one sees an goblin village, knowing that they are planning to harness a Gate that could blow Azure City to pieces, it is common sense to kill them before they get a chance.

The only thing the guard know about Xykon is what The Order (and Miko) told them - and neither is a terrible good source of information.

It wouldn't have hurt them to take six seconds to confirm he was actually a bad guy before rolling initiative (and had he been a human, elf, dwarf etc they might have - but as you mentioned they may have judged him on his creature type alone).

I find your claim that the paladins have Wisdom and yet would not pass a Sense Motive check on a thinly-veiled threat made by the commander of the army that is currently invading their city... questionable, let's say.

Their wisdom likely does not equal Xykon's charisma.

[Worldsong]

Wisdom is important for paladins and Listen is based on Wisdom - even if they were 100 feet away from Xykon they would only need a DC20 check to hear what he said clearly, and the room doesn't seem 100ft long, many of them could have heard him simply by taking 10 on their listen check.

Yes, they have exactly enough Wisdom that the vast majority of them hear what Xykon says, but not enough for a sizeable portion of them to see through the bluff.

The perfect amount for the perfect storm.

[Babale]

Epic Bluff can instill a suggestion (similiar to the spell)

Are you referring to Haley bluffing? Because her bluffs did not cause swirly eyes and in fact she explicitly says that it is not a magical effect once she's used her enhanced skills to lie -- so explicitly NOT like a suggestion spell.

in the target - and the suggestion spell does result in swirly eyes.

The suggestion SPELL results in swirly eyes, but as we saw when Haley used bluffing to that effect, it did NOT result in swirly eyes.

That he scribbled a symbol of insanity on a super bouncy ball is a believable suggestion.

So your theory is that he cast Mass Suggestion and then used his spell to try and convince them that he had cast a different spell? This is Xykon, not Nale -- needlessly complicated schemes aren't Xykon's shtick.

[dancrilis]

Are you referring to Haley bluffing?

No.

Haley is not Epic so I am not talking about her - merely having a high skill modifier does not grant access being able to use skills in an Epic fashion.

[Peelee]

Their wisdom likely does not equal Xykon's charisma.

Xykon's charisma likely does not equal the paladins circumstance bonuses.

[Jason]

Even if you did make an epic Bluff check sufficient to convince all the Paladins in the room that they were under the effect of a Symbol of Insanity spell, wouldn't all the Paladins then have to make their own Knowledge, Arcana check (not a class skill for Paladins) to know what the effects of a Symbol of Insanity spell are and then act them out appropriately?
That gives you two rolls that can result in a failure of your attacks, one that gets worse for you the less competent your foes are.
Using the actual spell only gives you one point of failure for each target - a high DC Wisdom saving throw.

[understatement]

Would you say:


The only thing the guard know about Xykon is what The Order (and Miko) told them - and neither is a terrible good source of information.

It wouldn't have hurt them to take six seconds to confirm he was actually a bad guy before rolling initiative (and had he been a human, elf, dwarf etc they might have - but as you mentioned they may have judged him on his creature type alone).

Azure City knew what the threat was through previous intel - their diviners have scried the invading army, the Order has told them of Xykon, and Roy is definitely trustworthy.

Not even comparable to the goblin village by miles.

[Babale]

No.

Haley is not Epic so I am not talking about her - merely having a high skill modifier does not grant access being able to use skills in an Epic fashion.

It does when you have a high skill bonus and an additional +30 on top from a potion; your unsupported assertion does not agree with the rules regarding epic skill checks. Cite:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm

Instilling a non magical suggestion effect can be done by a level 1 character with no ranks in Bluff; the rule doesn't put a limit on the attempt, it just gives a +50 bonus to sense motive to anyone attempting an opposed check to resist your bluff.

I think it's pretty clear that Haley used exactly this rule to, for example, convince a guard that they were a wallaby. It is also pretty clear this is not what Xykon did because, as mentioned, he only told about the symbol of insanity to 3 paladins, while the paladins affected by the magic were behind them and already affected.

[Jason]

It wouldn't have hurt them to take six seconds to confirm he was actually a bad guy before rolling initiative (and had he been a human, elf, dwarf etc they might have - but as you mentioned they may have judged him on his creature type alone).

When your city of mostly humans is under attack by a horde of goblins and undead and a goblin and an undead guy burst into the room you're guarding you probably are justified in immediately attacking.

[Metastachydium]

The paladins weren't all self-righteous either. O-Chul certainly isn't, and he was there.

(Please note that Xykon never actually killed O-Chul.)

[Tvtyrant]

...with nothin' but a bouncing ball?
Hehehe.
Good times.
Hoping to see something similarly stylish in the upcoming conflict.

Those apocalypse preventing jerks got what was coming to them! I hope everyone dies just so to rub it in their ghost faces.

[dancrilis]

Xykon's charisma likely does not equal the paladins circumstance bonuses.

Fair.

... the Order has told them of Xykon, and Roy is definitely trustworthy.

Is he (from the presepctive of the Sapphire Guard at that time) - he decieved Shojo about his trip to Cliffport (indicating it was about Xykon where in fact it was about family business), his team drove Miko insane - one of them even having a plan of making her fall, his team claimed that they had destroyed Xykon when they had not etc.

There are reasons for the people of Azure city to be somewhat dubious about him and his Order.

It does when you have a high skill bonus and an additional +30 on top from a potion; your unsupported assertion does not agree with the rules regarding epic skill checks.

I recall it being in the Epic Handbook - but I may be recalling incorrectly it has been a while.

It is also pretty clear this is not what Xykon did because, as mentioned, he only told about the symbol of insanity to 3 paladins, while the paladins affected by the magic were behind them and already affected.

Listening and understanding someone speaking in the same room as you is not actually difficult (DC20 if you are 100ft away).

When your city of mostly humans is under attack by a horde of goblins and undead and a goblin and an undead guy burst into the room you're guarding you probably are justified in immediately attacking.

Seems like a slippery slope.

[Metastachydium]

Those apocalypse preventing jerks got what was coming to them! I hope everyone dies just so to rub it in their ghost faces.

Apocalypse preventing jerks? One of them made an attempt to deliberately weaken the fabric of the universe, and a former colleague of his tried to redeem herself by actually doing so (not to mention their two allies who did the same before and after that). They were a threat to creation as it is, and as such, they got exactly what they deserved.

[Tvtyrant]

Apocalypse preventing jerks? One of them made an attempt to deliberately weaken the fabric of the universe, and a former colleague of his tried to redeem herself by actually doing so (not to mention their two allies who did the same before and after that). They were a threat to creation as it is, and as such, they got exactly what they deserved.

Yeah, defending the gates from an evil undead Lich is definitely Evil. They should accept the peace of the grave, exactly.


The only reason the world isn't gone now is their founder helped save it, and they are devoted to keeping the mechanism by which it was saved from being used to destroy the world or slaughter the gods. Whatever you think of their methods, their goals are literally the most lawful good you can get.

Imagine if the fusion core from Batman DKR was a natural thing, and a group built a device to house it because the radiation was leaking out and poisoning the entire world's ocean. Unfortunately it is now explosive if used as a weapon, and so you make an organization that tries to prevent people from getting that bomb. Now a group kills your operatives and is going to use the bomb, so you break it and it leaks again. Should you have let the bomb kill everyone or hope someone can make a new containment cell?