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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Hermione is still the prodigy.
    I think she would take offense to that honestly. She's a "wizard" through and through, putting in more study, hard work, and practice than anyone else. She really doesn't have any talent in understanding or learning things more quickly or intuitively than others, she just puts in the hours that people like Harry don't bother doing.

    If the existence of easygoing geniuses is infuriating to someone, imagine what it feels like for people to think they are one.

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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamunami View Post
    I think she would take offense to that honestly. She's a "wizard" through and through, putting in more study, hard work, and practice than anyone else. She really doesn't have any talent in understanding or learning things more quickly or intuitively than others, she just puts in the hours that people like Harry don't bother doing.

    If the existence of easygoing geniuses is infuriating to someone, imagine what it feels like for people to think they are one.
    I disagree. Hermione is both more talented than the other students in most areas and she works harder than any of them in order to acheive what she does. Many child prodigies in music IRL are both very talented and work incredibly hard.

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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    I disagree. Hermione is both more talented than the other students in most areas and she works harder than any of them in order to acheive what she does. Many child prodigies in music IRL are both very talented and work incredibly hard.
    Hermione was able to brew Polyjuice Potion in her second year, and that was supposed to be a very complex potion that was difficult to brew - even though it seems to be available on tap in later books.

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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    There are a lot of passages where the activity of the day for a class is described with the note that Hermione got the best results of any member of the class, especially in the earlier books. It is not just a matter of having done the reading before hand: Hermione is also genuinely talented.

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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    As I understand it, the wizard's magic isn't inside the spellbook, per se, the spellbook is just where they write down their spells. They do all the actual magicking when they prepare their spells in the morning and casting a specific spell is just triggering the spell they loaded. So they don't take the magic from anybody or anything but themselves.

    Meanwhile the Clerics' spells are prepared by the gods and handed to them.
    The wizard still remains dependent on an external source for their ability to cast spells.
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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by thereaper View Post
    The wizard still remains dependent on an external source for their ability to cast spells.
    We might almost say that wizards in D&D with their necessity to prepare "spells" to have ingredients (material components, which are not simply a focus, but real components related to the effect, like sulfur for fireballs) should be more correctly named "alchemists", therefore leaving the sorcerers (and later the psions) the only ones really able to shape reality using only their sheer willpower.

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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Not big in the HP fandom, but who was the prodigy in that? Snape, for his uncanny understanding of potions?
    Rowling, for making a ton of money writing what I consider mediocre books. But, to each their own. At least they're better than Twilight.
    Last edited by Darth Paul; 2020-08-30 at 06:15 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    Rowling, for making a ton of money writing what I consider mediocre books.
    I'd agree on that, but I'd call her more lucky than prodigy.
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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    We might almost say that wizards in D&D with their necessity to prepare "spells" to have ingredients (material components, which are not simply a focus, but real components related to the effect, like sulfur for fireballs) should be more correctly named "alchemists", therefore leaving the sorcerers (and later the psions) the only ones really able to shape reality using only their sheer willpower.
    Material components only apply to some spells, and the same issue applies to sorcerors. If we are to assume that "real" magic comes purely from the self, then spells requiring material components wouldn't qualify as "real" magic.

    And don't forget Bards.
    Last edited by thereaper; 2020-08-30 at 07:17 PM.
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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Talent and effort tend to feed each other.

    If you're already talented at something, working to get better at it tends to produce results, and that feels good, so you keep training.
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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I'd agree on that, but I'd call her more lucky than prodigy.
    Rowling is not a prodigy, just a decently skilled writer who had an excellent idea at exactly the right time. But then nearly all successful writers have a measure of luck in their story.
    I think the books are quite good, but they are meant for juveniles, and the universe they describe is interesting and colorful, but not exactly logical. That is also part of their charm.

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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Kruploy View Post
    Divine magic is probably the closest you can get to the realm of true magic.
    I am hoping that Katherine Kurtz arrives at that conclusion (I am finally reading the Deryni series and I suspect that she's headed that way ...)
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    I tend to agree with everyone who has said it's the same feeling a great master who has worked all their life gets when confronted with a prodigy to whom the same thing comes effortlessly. It's extremely annoying (I have to say), especially because the world is usually more amazed by the prodigy than by the great master.
    Salieri and Mozart, Snape and Potter.
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    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-08-31 at 08:43 AM.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    I tend to agree with everyone who has said it's the same feeling a great master who has worked all their life gets when confronted with a prodigy to whom the same thing comes effortlessly.
    Snape and Potter.
    I don't recall Potter being a great master. Pretty good eventually, but hardly "great master". At least, from what I've heard of how the series ended, didn't really read the last book/see the last movies. Regardless, he never really had any animosity towards Snape for Snape's innate talents.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-08-31 at 09:30 AM.
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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Snape was hostile towards any student that didn't belong to Slytheran, regardless of their abilities. His exceptional hostility towards Harry Potter had nothing to do with Potter being unusually talented in magic and everything to do with Snape's relationship with Potter's deceased parents.

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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Snape was hostile towards any student that didn't belong to Slytheran, regardless of their abilities. His exceptional hostility towards Harry Potter had nothing to do with Potter being unusually talented in magic and everything to do with Snape's relationship with Potter's deceased parents.
    OK, that's a fair point, though it seemed to me that Snape was consistently jealous of Harry's success and depth of "awakening" talent. Your take fits the story just fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Regardless, he never really had any animosity towards Snape for Snape's innate talents.
    The animosity was in the other direction.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-08-31 at 10:26 AM.
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    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    The animosity was in the other direction.
    IIRC, Snape hated Potter because James bullied him and married the girl Snape crushed on, and Snape white-knighted for her to the end of his life. Nothing to do with hard work vs. innate talent (and the books depict Snape as being a prodigy at potions, given how while in school, he made corrections to his own textbook to the point that the book was later effectively the equivalent of a cheat-sheet while Potter never really shone in any classes through inborn talent or hard work.

    So not really a "hard worker hates natural talent" type deal here.
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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    OK, that's a fair point, though it seemed to me that Snape was consistently jealous of Harry's success and depth of "awakening" talent. Your take fits the story just fine.
    He became resentful of Potter's seeming ability to constantly bend or break the rules and get away without consequence or even be rewarded for it, but that was also one of the traits he hated most in Harry's father.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    IIRC, Snape hated Potter because James bullied him and married the girl Snape crushed on, and Snape white-knighted for her to the end of his life. Nothing to do with hard work vs. innate talent (and the books depict Snape as being a prodigy at potions, given how while in school, he made corrections to his own textbook to the point that the book was later effectively the equivalent of a cheat-sheet while Potter never really shone in any classes through inborn talent or hard work.

    So not really a "hard worker hates natural talent" type deal here.
    Maybe this idea comes from the scenes where Snape berates Harry for not practicing his occlumency? Of course that’s in context of Harry sucking at it and not practicing it because Snape is horrible teacher and his private lessons consisted solely of daily humiliations, so not seeing the prodigy here. The only two disciplines Harry is genuinely talented in is quidditch and defense and, not coincidentally, these are also the only two he likes.
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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    IIRC, Snape hated Potter because James bullied him and married the girl Snape crushed on,
    Which it took how many books to reveal? I read the books from the first forward. That aspect of the Potter(parents) / Snape relationship took a while to be spelled out. (Fifth book? It's been so long since we took them all back to the Second Hand books store that I don't remember).
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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Which it took how many books to reveal? I read the books from the first forward. That aspect of the Potter(parents) / Snape relationship took a while to be spelled out. (Fifth book? It's been so long since we took them all back to the Second Hand books store that I don't remember).
    Snape's true motivation and loyalties were issues that were only definitively resolved in the last book, though hints were given out in most of the books up to that point. Snape is by far the most complicated and no doubt some would say the most interesting character in the series. Rather like Gollum in The Lord of the Rings.

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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Which it took how many books to reveal? I read the books from the first forward. That aspect of the Potter(parents) / Snape relationship took a while to be spelled out. (Fifth book? It's been so long since we took them all back to the Second Hand books store that I don't remember).
    Whereas it still has not been revealed that Potter is a prodigy at anything other than maybe sports, and the only reason he is important is because Voldemort failed to kill him, due to absolutely nothing special about Harry. My point is that the Snape/Harry comparison does not fit here.
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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Snape is by far the most complicated and no doubt some would say the most interesting character in the series.
    Hmm, a medium sized fish in a small pond. Works for me. So it did take until Phone Book VII?
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  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Whereas it still has not been revealed that Potter is a prodigy at anything other than maybe sports, and the only reason he is important is because Voldemort failed to kill him, due to absolutely nothing special about Harry. My point is that the Snape/Harry comparison does not fit here.
    In fact it is revealed that Potter is the Chosen One precisely because Voldemort had a choice between two newborn boys that fit the conditions of a prophecy that said who would eventually defeat him, and he chose to try to kill the boy who had a mixed muggle ancestry like his own rather than the boy from an all-wizard family. Incidentally proving that he was a hypocrite, since a major point of his rhetoric was that pure-bloods always make superior wizards and should rule the world.

    If anything, Snape is the naturally talented prodigy and Potter is the one who had to work hard to develop his skills in everything but Quidditch.

    Edit: I've only actually read the Harry Potter books and seen the movies once each, but the series is a current favorite of my pre-teen daughter that she has read multiple times, and we're currently re-reading them together as a family. Hence my familiarity with the series.
    Last edited by Jason; 2020-08-31 at 11:49 AM. Reason: Typo

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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    If anything, Snape is the naturally prodigy and Potter is the one who had to work hard to develop his skills in everything but Quidditch.
    That's what I'm trying to say, yes. Although even with work, Harry is nowhere near Snape's level (or Hermione's for that matter - she would be a more appropriate stand-in for the mastery-through-work).
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-08-31 at 11:42 AM.
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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    That's what I'm trying to say, yes. Although even with work, Harry is nowhere near Snape's level (or Hermione's for that matter - she would be a more appropriate stand-in for the mastery-through-work).
    I think it would be fair to say that Harry has the same capacity of Hermione, his interests just lay elsewhere. Whenever we see him actually putting in honest effort towards the same thing as Hermione, he generally either keeps pace with her or sees results first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    He became resentful of Potter's seeming ability to constantly bend or break the rules and get away without consequence or even be rewarded for it, but that was also one of the traits he hated most in Harry's father.
    I suppose what Harry is a real prodigy at is getting away with crap to an insane degree, and that's a truly annoying trait to anyone who spends their days slogging away through the bureaucracy, following the rules, being called on the carpet by the boss, being stabbed in the back in tiny ways by coworkers, suffering "the whips and scorns of time, The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely... the law's delay, The insolence of office and the spurns that patient merit of the unworthy takes," while watching someone else end run around every rule and get away with it because they're popular and just so likeable.

    I actually liked Snape (the little I saw of him in two movies, and not just because it's Alan Rickman, although that was reason enough). He's only an antagonist because he insists on Potter following the same rules as everyone else and doing the work, which Potter doesn't seem to think he should have to. That was my impression anyway. But the books and the films are written so that Harry, the protagonist, is of course right and the teachers are wrong- since it is a kids' series after all. But it grinds on anyone who thinks reality should ensue and see the little bugger kicked out on his ear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    I actually liked Snape (the little I saw of him in two movies, and not just because it's Alan Rickman, although that was reason enough). He's only an antagonist because he insists on Potter following the same rules as everyone else and doing the work, which Potter doesn't seem to think he should have to. That was my impression anyway. But the books and the films are written so that Harry, the protagonist, is of course right and the teachers are wrong- since it is a kids' series after all. But it grinds on anyone who thinks reality should ensue and see the little bugger kicked out on his ear.
    Well, not really in the books. Snape there is an antagonist because he actively bullies students that do not belong to his favored house, like poor Neville, and promotes his favored students, like Draco Malfoy, at every opportunity. He is actively malicious, not just someone trying to follow the rules.
    He hates Harry from the first sight of him. Later he also resents him for getting away with constant rulebreaking, but he was determined to never like Harry Potter, the son of his hated enemy and rival James, from the start.
    That said, he is not a villain. He hates Harry and would love to see him be expelled, but he also saves his life on many occasions (and occasionally vice versa) and eventually accepts that Harry is necessary to defeating Voldemort.

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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    So I think Mozart isn't the best example of a sorcerer of music; he was classically trained, familiar with European music theory , and was able to read and write sheet music. Those things all seem essential to being a composer, but aren't strictly so. I think the real wizard's prejudice is that other caster think about magic differently, which seems wrong to the close minded.

    I'm reminded of a story about a Cape Verdian composer (his name escapes me) working with a European orchestra.

    The composer never learned to read/write music and he never needed to: he simply had all parts memorized and and would teach the musicians their parts by demonstration.
    Last edited by Quizatzhaderac; 2020-09-02 at 11:10 AM.

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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizatzhaderac View Post
    I'm reminder of a story about a Cape Verdian composer (his name escapes me) working with a European orchestra.

    The composer never learned to read/write music and he never needed to: he simply had all parts memorized and and would teach the musicians their parts by demonstration.
    Interesting example. I know a musician who has never learned how to read music; he's had numerous songs published.
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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Well, not really in the books. Snape there is an antagonist because he actively bullies students that do not belong to his favored house, like poor Neville, and promotes his favored students, like Draco Malfoy, at every opportunity. He is actively malicious, not just someone trying to follow the rules.
    He hates Harry from the first sight of him. Later he also resents him for getting away with constant rulebreaking, but he was determined to never like Harry Potter, the son of his hated enemy and rival James, from the start.
    That said, he is not a villain. He hates Harry and would love to see him be expelled, but he also saves his life on many occasions (and occasionally vice versa) and eventually accepts that Harry is necessary to defeating Voldemort.
    Hand up, confession, I did not pay that close attention to either of the first two films (which are the only ones I've seen), and it was years ago. In fact I may have dozed off and missed bits. That's what happens when you attempt to unwind and start your days off after a 16 hour shift by watching a movie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
    Namer Of MitD Threads
    Charter Member and Head Ninja of Peelee's Lotsey Ninjas
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    [furiously scribbles notes on how Darth Paul is the MitD]

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