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2020-08-30, 02:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
I think she would take offense to that honestly. She's a "wizard" through and through, putting in more study, hard work, and practice than anyone else. She really doesn't have any talent in understanding or learning things more quickly or intuitively than others, she just puts in the hours that people like Harry don't bother doing.
If the existence of easygoing geniuses is infuriating to someone, imagine what it feels like for people to think they are one.
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2020-08-30, 03:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
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2020-08-30, 01:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
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2020-08-30, 01:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
There are a lot of passages where the activity of the day for a class is described with the note that Hermione got the best results of any member of the class, especially in the earlier books. It is not just a matter of having done the reading before hand: Hermione is also genuinely talented.
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2020-08-30, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
Wolfen Houndog - The World in Revolt (4e)
The Mythic Warrior, a 3.5 base class that severs limbs and sunders armor
The Nameless One, converted to 3.5 and 5e
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2020-08-30, 02:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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- Italy
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
We might almost say that wizards in D&D with their necessity to prepare "spells" to have ingredients (material components, which are not simply a focus, but real components related to the effect, like sulfur for fireballs) should be more correctly named "alchemists", therefore leaving the sorcerers (and later the psions) the only ones really able to shape reality using only their sheer willpower.
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2020-08-30, 06:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2014
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- A Michigan Far, Far Away
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
Last edited by Darth Paul; 2020-08-30 at 06:15 PM.
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2020-08-30, 06:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Washington D.C.
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2020-08-30, 07:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007
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- Florida, USA
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
Last edited by thereaper; 2020-08-30 at 07:17 PM.
Wolfen Houndog - The World in Revolt (4e)
The Mythic Warrior, a 3.5 base class that severs limbs and sunders armor
The Nameless One, converted to 3.5 and 5e
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2020-08-30, 07:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007
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- In your head.
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
Talent and effort tend to feed each other.
If you're already talented at something, working to get better at it tends to produce results, and that feels good, so you keep training."Come play in the darkness with me."
Thanks for the avatar, banjo1985!
Spoiler
I guess I'm a Neutral Good Human Wizard (4th Level)
Ability Scores:
Strength- 14
Dexterity- 15
Constitution- 17
Intelligence- 20
Wisdom- 20
Charisma- 12
Take the 'What D&D Character am I?" Quiz!
Somehow I doubt the veracity of this quiz :P
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
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2020-08-31, 12:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
Rowling is not a prodigy, just a decently skilled writer who had an excellent idea at exactly the right time. But then nearly all successful writers have a measure of luck in their story.
I think the books are quite good, but they are meant for juveniles, and the universe they describe is interesting and colorful, but not exactly logical. That is also part of their charm.
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2020-08-31, 08:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
I am hoping that Katherine Kurtz arrives at that conclusion (I am finally reading the Deryni series and I suspect that she's headed that way ...)
Salieri and Mozart, Snape and Potter.
A note on the actual Salieri, rather than his portrayal in the film Amadeus:
Salieri was a pivotal figure in the development of late 18th-century operaLast edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-08-31 at 08:43 AM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2020-08-31, 09:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Washington D.C.
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
I don't recall Potter being a great master. Pretty good eventually, but hardly "great master". At least, from what I've heard of how the series ended, didn't really read the last book/see the last movies. Regardless, he never really had any animosity towards Snape for Snape's innate talents.
Last edited by Peelee; 2020-08-31 at 09:30 AM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-08-31, 10:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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- Somewhere in Utah...
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
Snape was hostile towards any student that didn't belong to Slytheran, regardless of their abilities. His exceptional hostility towards Harry Potter had nothing to do with Potter being unusually talented in magic and everything to do with Snape's relationship with Potter's deceased parents.
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2020-08-31, 10:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-08-31 at 10:26 AM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2020-08-31, 10:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
IIRC, Snape hated Potter because James bullied him and married the girl Snape crushed on, and Snape white-knighted for her to the end of his life. Nothing to do with hard work vs. innate talent (and the books depict Snape as being a prodigy at potions, given how while in school, he made corrections to his own textbook to the point that the book was later effectively the equivalent of a cheat-sheet while Potter never really shone in any classes through inborn talent or hard work.
So not really a "hard worker hates natural talent" type deal here.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-08-31, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-31, 10:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
Maybe this idea comes from the scenes where Snape berates Harry for not practicing his occlumency? Of course that’s in context of Harry sucking at it and not practicing it because Snape is horrible teacher and his private lessons consisted solely of daily humiliations, so not seeing the prodigy here. The only two disciplines Harry is genuinely talented in is quidditch and defense and, not coincidentally, these are also the only two he likes.
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-08-31, 10:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
Which it took how many books to reveal? I read the books from the first forward. That aspect of the Potter(parents) / Snape relationship took a while to be spelled out. (Fifth book? It's been so long since we took them all back to the Second Hand books store that I don't remember).
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2020-08-31, 10:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
Snape's true motivation and loyalties were issues that were only definitively resolved in the last book, though hints were given out in most of the books up to that point. Snape is by far the most complicated and no doubt some would say the most interesting character in the series. Rather like Gollum in The Lord of the Rings.
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2020-08-31, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
Whereas it still has not been revealed that Potter is a prodigy at anything other than maybe sports, and the only reason he is important is because Voldemort failed to kill him, due to absolutely nothing special about Harry. My point is that the Snape/Harry comparison does not fit here.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-08-31, 11:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2020-08-31, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
In fact it is revealed that Potter is the Chosen One precisely because Voldemort had a choice between two newborn boys that fit the conditions of a prophecy that said who would eventually defeat him, and he chose to try to kill the boy who had a mixed muggle ancestry like his own rather than the boy from an all-wizard family. Incidentally proving that he was a hypocrite, since a major point of his rhetoric was that pure-bloods always make superior wizards and should rule the world.
If anything, Snape is the naturally talented prodigy and Potter is the one who had to work hard to develop his skills in everything but Quidditch.
Edit: I've only actually read the Harry Potter books and seen the movies once each, but the series is a current favorite of my pre-teen daughter that she has read multiple times, and we're currently re-reading them together as a family. Hence my familiarity with the series.Last edited by Jason; 2020-08-31 at 11:49 AM. Reason: Typo
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2020-08-31, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Washington D.C.
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
Last edited by Peelee; 2020-08-31 at 11:42 AM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-08-31, 11:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-09-01, 02:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2014
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- A Michigan Far, Far Away
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
I suppose what Harry is a real prodigy at is getting away with crap to an insane degree, and that's a truly annoying trait to anyone who spends their days slogging away through the bureaucracy, following the rules, being called on the carpet by the boss, being stabbed in the back in tiny ways by coworkers, suffering "the whips and scorns of time, The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely... the law's delay, The insolence of office and the spurns that patient merit of the unworthy takes," while watching someone else end run around every rule and get away with it because they're popular and just so likeable.
I actually liked Snape (the little I saw of him in two movies, and not just because it's Alan Rickman, although that was reason enough). He's only an antagonist because he insists on Potter following the same rules as everyone else and doing the work, which Potter doesn't seem to think he should have to. That was my impression anyway. But the books and the films are written so that Harry, the protagonist, is of course right and the teachers are wrong- since it is a kids' series after all. But it grinds on anyone who thinks reality should ensue and see the little bugger kicked out on his ear.
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2020-09-01, 02:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
Well, not really in the books. Snape there is an antagonist because he actively bullies students that do not belong to his favored house, like poor Neville, and promotes his favored students, like Draco Malfoy, at every opportunity. He is actively malicious, not just someone trying to follow the rules.
He hates Harry from the first sight of him. Later he also resents him for getting away with constant rulebreaking, but he was determined to never like Harry Potter, the son of his hated enemy and rival James, from the start.
That said, he is not a villain. He hates Harry and would love to see him be expelled, but he also saves his life on many occasions (and occasionally vice versa) and eventually accepts that Harry is necessary to defeating Voldemort.
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2020-09-02, 09:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2019
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
So I think Mozart isn't the best example of a sorcerer of music; he was classically trained, familiar with European music theory , and was able to read and write sheet music. Those things all seem essential to being a composer, but aren't strictly so. I think the real wizard's prejudice is that other caster think about magic differently, which seems wrong to the close minded.
I'm reminded of a story about a Cape Verdian composer (his name escapes me) working with a European orchestra.
The composer never learned to read/write music and he never needed to: he simply had all parts memorized and and would teach the musicians their parts by demonstration.Last edited by Quizatzhaderac; 2020-09-02 at 11:10 AM.
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2020-09-02, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2020-09-02, 10:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2014
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- A Michigan Far, Far Away
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Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers
Hand up, confession, I did not pay that close attention to either of the first two films (which are the only ones I've seen), and it was years ago. In fact I may have dozed off and missed bits. That's what happens when you attempt to unwind and start your days off after a 16 hour shift by watching a movie.