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  1. - Top - End - #181
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I wonder when would be a good time to bring up that the Jedi explicitly always used the Force proper, while no small part of the Legends talked about Sith Magic, Sith Sorcery, and Sith Sorcerers (including the still-running MMO The Old Republic, in which Sorcerer is an actual advanced class for the Sith Inquisitor.
    But they don't really use the term Sorcerer in the same way that DnD uses it - they use it more in a sense of 'master of arcane secrets'.

    We could say that Jedi Order are some kind of multiclass combo involving limited magic and warrior training - where the Sith are much more varied, but that is kindof off topic from the sorcerer/wizard discussion.

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    hamishspence's Avatar

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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    Plus, of course, the Jedi had a humongous library. That's a sure sign of wizards. If only it had been managed by an orangutan, we would have been sure...
    The closest thing we saw to an orangutan in Star Wars was working for darksiders, to reforge Kylo Ren's helmet:


    https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Albrekh

    To be fair, he's a bit more chimp-ish than orang-ish
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2020-09-08 at 04:56 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Fyraltari's Avatar

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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    See, this is exactly the problem, you people are so focused on fitting round Star Wars orders into square D&D classes that you miss the main point: Sith and Jedi are religious orders, they don’t approach the Force as something to study or experiment with, they see it as the ultimate truth that holds the universe together.
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  4. - Top - End - #184
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    hamishspence's Avatar

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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Sith and Jedi are religious orders, they don’t approach the Force as something to study or experiment with, they see it as the ultimate truth that holds the universe together.
    True dat. Though some, especially in the Legendsverse, do study, and experiment, with it a lot.

    "Clerics of an ideal" (rather than clerics of a deity) might be the closest approximation, and even then it's never going to be a perfect fit.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2020-09-08 at 06:56 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #185
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    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I wonder when would be a good time to bring up that the Jedi explicitly always used the Force proper, while no small part of the Legends talked about Sith Magic, Sith Sorcery, and Sith Sorcerers (including the still-running MMO The Old Republic, in which Sorcerer is an actual advanced class for the Sith Inquisitor.
    Trying to shoehorn Lucas's Force into D&D's system is IMO a mistake. That said, I saw a neat build that tried to make a 5e monk (it was homebrew) into something closer to a force user. It wasn't a bad effort.

    But narratively The Force and Ki are the same thing.
    The Jedi are monks - psions. (EDIT: weird autocensor is weird)
    The ultimate difference is that Lucas's Force is OP (game-wise) because he needs it to be for the story that he wanted to tell.
    Game balance isn't in his priority matrix. (See also pod racing)
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-09-10 at 10:45 AM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Fyraltari's Avatar

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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    True dat. Though some, especially in the Legendsverse, do study, and experiment, with it a lot.

    "Clerics of an ideal" (rather than clerics of a deity) might be the closest approximation, and even then it's never going to be a perfect fit.
    This misses the fact that the Force has a will.
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  7. - Top - End - #187
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Darths & Droids summed it up quite aptly in terms of two D&D players trying to fit the idea of "Jedi" into terms they understood. For those who don't feel like clicking the link, the conversation is below.

    GM: Jedi is your character class. You're sort of warriors with arcane abilities—
    Qui-Gon: Like fighter/mages?
    GM: — fighting for justice.
    Obi-Wan: Ah, paladins.
    GM: No. You draw upon the power of the Force—
    Qui-Gon: "The Force"?
    GM: The Force is an energy field—
    Obi-Wan: Energy? But energy is force times distance.
    Qui-Gon: And "power of the force" would be distance times the derivative with respect to time.
    GM: <sigh> You're monks.
    Qui-Gon: Got it.
    Obi-Wan: But monks can't wield—
    Qui-Gon: Shut up. He'll take away our laser swords!
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
    Namer Of MitD Threads
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    [furiously scribbles notes on how Darth Paul is the MitD]

  8. - Top - End - #188
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    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    Darths & Droids summed it up quite aptly in terms of two D&D players trying to fit the idea of "Jedi" into terms they understood. For those who don't feel like clicking the link, the conversation is below.
    Laser swords are monk weapons.
    (Way of the Kensei? D&D 5e reference there, not a 3/x ref)
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-09-08 at 08:44 AM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Laser swords are monk weapons.
    (Way of the Kensei? D&D 5e reference there, not a 3/x ref)
    But at the time I believe we were only up to 3 point whatever.

    You have learned much, young one, but you are not a Jedi yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
    Namer Of MitD Threads
    Charter Member and Head Ninja of Peelee's Lotsey Ninjas
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    [furiously scribbles notes on how Darth Paul is the MitD]

  10. - Top - End - #190
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    hamishspence's Avatar

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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    This misses the fact that the Force has a will.
    So the Jedi believe. That doesn’t mean it’s anywhere near as interventionist as the average D&D deity is. And after all, it’s not like the Jedi can travel to where The Force lives, and have an argument with it (and get beaten up by it) the way that can happen with a D&D cleric and their deity.
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  11. - Top - End - #191
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Wizard Hypocrisy Towards Sorcerers

    Thematically speaking, Jedi are Paladins and Sith are either Anti-Paladins (Maul and Kylo Ren) or Sorcerors (the Emperor).

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