Isn't redcloak's JOB to take the matter to his god, instead of evaluating it himself?

[caltino]

Why did the last few strips turn into a discussion between mortals trying to convince each other? I thought this business was a matter between gods, as in the gods talking to each other through their clerics in Godsmoot. Roy's speech was useless there, because he wasn't part of the discussion. I thought Redcload would have to take the matter to his god and start channeling him so that Dark One and Thor could do their thing. The discussion is supposed to be at god level, isn't it? The clerics were not trying to convince each other at Godsmoot.

I get that redcloack hasn't spoken to his god personally before, but that's not a real obstacle- when the matter calls for it, it can be done. It's not up to RC to evaluate offers from a god to another god.

What do you think?

[Fyraltari]

Why did the last few strips turn into a discussion between mortals trying to convince each other? I thought this business was a matter between gods, as in the gods talking to each other through their clerics in Godsmoot. Roy's speech was useless there, because he wasn't part of the discussion. I thought Redcload would have to take the matter to his god and start channeling him so that Dark One and Thor could do their thing. The discussion is supposed to be at god level, isn't it? The clerics were not trying to convince each other at Godsmoot.

I get that redcloack hasn't spoken to his god personally before, but that's not a real obstacle- when the matter calls for it, it can be done. It's not up to RC to evaluate offers from a god to another god.

What do you think?

Two things:

1) If you are correct, Durkon still need to convince Redcloak to contact the Dark One. Until Redcloak agrees to help, nothing will happen. Why would Redcloak put the Plan on hold and talk to his god if he doesn't believe in Durkon's offer?

2) Durkon's job is to convince Redcloak to help by participating to a Ritual to give Thor access to some of the Dark One's energy that powers Redcloak's spell. Not to convince the Dark One.

[Roland Itiative]

Durkon's job doesn't require The Dark One's cooperation at all. It's to convince Redcloak to use a 9th level spell slot to help with the Rift-sealing. If that's the last cleric spell RC ever casts, and TDO decides to cut him off afterwards, it still served its purpose (until new Rifts appear).

Now, it would be nice if TDO himself agreed to help, and thus they would have a more permanent solution, but right now they're working on the short-term, as the other gods are very close to destroying the world with how pressing the situation is. If they can patch this up right now, the gods have a few millenia to figure out the long-term.

[Jasdoif]

The Dark One's never spoken directly to Redcloak in the 35 years that Redcloak's been his high priest; he seems like the opposite of the micromanaging type. I could easily believe that Redcloak serves as a plenipotentiary (not a word I get to use everyday) in this situation. I mean, this is somewhat less outlandish than a frontarchy....(Also not a word I get to use everyday)

Similarly, I doubt Thor would question how Durkon gets Redcloak on board with the rift sealing; though Thor and Durkon probably don't expect Redcloak to do anything the Dark One wouldn't agree with.

[dancrilis]

Isn't redcloak's JOB to take the matter to his god, instead of evaluating it himself?

I am going to assume that The High Priest of The Dark One knows the duties and responsibilities of The High Priest of The Dark One well enough to do the job he has decades of experience doing.

[WanderingMist]

Why did the last few strips turn into a discussion between mortals trying to convince each other? I thought this business was a matter between gods, as in the gods talking to each other through their clerics in Godsmoot. Roy's speech was useless there, because he wasn't part of the discussion. I thought Redcloak would have to take the matter to his god and start channeling him so that Dark One and Thor could do their thing. The discussion is supposed to be at god level, isn't it? The clerics were not trying to convince each other at Godsmoot.

I get that redcloak hasn't spoken to his god personally before, but that's not a real obstacle- when the matter calls for it, it can be done. It's not up to RC to evaluate offers from a god to another god.

What do you think?

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html

The Dark One keeps smiting any emissaries that try to directly speak with him. The reason the gods are using Durkon right now is to try to establish any sort of contact at all. And as far as Redclaok is concerned, there is no possible matter which would call for him doing so, as he still believes he wins if either of his plans work.

[Metastachydium]

The Dark One's never spoken directly to Redcloak in the 35 years that Redcloak's been his high priest; he seems like the opposite of the micromanaging type. I could easily believe that Redcloak serves as a plenipotentiary (not a word I get to use everyday) in this situation.

Precisely. Ever since Redcloak has become the Bearer, his god delegated decision making to him and rolled with his decisions.

[The Pilgrim]

Why did the last few strips turn into a discussion between mortals trying to convince each other? I thought this business was a matter between gods, as in the gods talking to each other through their clerics in Godsmoot. Roy's speech was useless there, because he wasn't part of the discussion. I thought Redcload would have to take the matter to his god and start channeling him so that Dark One and Thor could do their thing. The discussion is supposed to be at god level, isn't it? The clerics were not trying to convince each other at Godsmoot.

I get that redcloack hasn't spoken to his god personally before, but that's not a real obstacle- when the matter calls for it, it can be done. It's not up to RC to evaluate offers from a god to another god.

What do you think?

I think that Redcloak will avoid taking the risk of telling about this to his God. TDO could decide to cancel The Plan, and then all the crimes commited by Redcloak would have been in vain.

[Goblin_Priest]

If Redcloak is made aware of the Godsmoot, could he go there, and zot TDO for a vote?

[dancrilis]

If Redcloak is made aware of the Godsmoot, could he go there, and zot TDO for a vote?

No, he has no vote at any Godsmoot (panel 10).

[Jason]

Precisely. Ever since Redcloak has become the Bearer, his god delegated decision making to him and rolled with his decisions.

Which again raises the question of how committed to The Plan the Dark One really is. What's he doing with all his time if guiding his high priest in The Plan isn't his priority?

[Metastachydium]

Which again raises the question of how committed to The Plan the Dark One really is. What's he doing with all his time if guiding his high priest in The Plan isn't his priority?

It is entirely possible that he is simply pleased with the performance of his high priest and does not have the people skills to know that he should remind the guy of that every now and then.

[understatement]

Being High Priest is as much as a matter of trust as of status: by giving him powerful spells and status for other worshippers to follow him, the Dark One ostensibly trusts that Redcloak will use this power to further his god's interests.

And if he wasn't commited to the Plan, he would've cut off Redcloak from spells a long time ago.

[dancrilis]

Being High Priest is as much as a matter of trust as of status: by giving him powerful spells and status for other worshippers to follow him, the Dark One ostensibly trusts that Redcloak will use this power to further his god's interests.

And if he wasn't commited to the Plan, he would've cut off Redcloak from spells a long time ago.

We don't know that - it is possible that The Dark One doesn't actually really care about the plan, he might be using it as a red herring to distract from his other plans.

For instance here (panel 7) Loki admits to Hel that he is really only there to stop her from cheating - it is possible that with nobody to properly watch him The Dark One is cheating away and that he wants a big obvious target in the world to distract the other gods from his more subtle actions.

[understatement]

We don't know that - it is possible that The Dark One doesn't actually really care about the plan, he might be using it as a red herring to distract from his other plans.

For instance here (panel 7) Loki admits to Hel that he is really only there to stop her from cheating - it is possible that with nobody to properly watch him The Dark One is cheating away and that he wants a big obvious target in the world to distract the other gods from his more subtle actions.

Possibly. I am not sure if it's better or worse that he is intensely focused on a Plan that risks all his followers' souls, or that the soul-risking Plan is just some side plan he drops on his high priests.

[Metastachydium]

We don't know that - it is possible that The Dark One doesn't actually really care about the plan, he might be using it as a red herring to distract from his other plans.

For instance here (panel 7) Loki admits to Hel that he is really only there to stop her from cheating - it is possible that with nobody to properly watch him The Dark One is cheating away and that he wants a big obvious target in the world to distract the other gods from his more subtle actions.

It is funny how this only ever comes up with regard to Big Puple, though. By the same logic, how do we know Thor did not keep much of his plan (there are parts he neglected to elaborate on) from Durkon and he did not send Durkon to Redcloak without much anything to offer without much anything to back up his claims with on purpose, because, say, he needs Redcloak to continue working on the Plan for some nefarious reason he keeps to himself?

[dancrilis]

It is funny how this only ever comes up with regard to Big Puple, though.

It doesn't.

I have suggested (I believe - maybe I just thought about it) that Loki might be using Hilgya as a trap - i.e she convinces the Dwarves to worship Loki and when they die he doesn't contest their deaths with Hel thereby boosting her power and making it more likely that she will survive to the next world (and so where she thinks she is saving the dwarven people from the honour system that the gods effectively bound too in fact she is merely damning them to an eternity of suffering to help Loki help his daughter).

Why it doesn't come up with Thor as much is because Thor is indicated to be a good god - but even then I believe that I have suggested in the past that he might be literal when he says he only needs a drop of purple to take care of the rest - i.e one drop mixed with a bucket of yellow might allow for hundreds of rifts to be sealed and so The Dark One would effectively end up with nothing and no leverage (and he merely didn't feel the need to burden Durkon with that information before sending him to negotiate).

[Fyraltari]

One fringe theory that I like, but only sometimes believe in, is that the Dark One is pulling some kind of con with Tiamat, Rat and Loki, and isn’t as angry as he seems.

It is funny how this only ever comes up with regard to Big Puple, though. By the same logic, how do we know Thor did not keep much of his plan (there are parts he neglected to elaborate on) from Durkon and he did not send Durkon to Redcloak without much anything to offer without much anything to back up his claims with on purpose, because, say, he needs Redcloak to continue working on the Plan for some nefarious reason he keeps to himself?

Because Thor has had much more characterization than the Dark One, meaning his goals and motives are much clearer and so less susceptible to speculation.

[Metastachydium]

It doesn't.

Fair enough, but it crops up more often than in the case of other plot-relevant gods.

I have suggested (I believe - maybe I just thought about it) that Loki might be using Hilgya as a trap - i.e she convinces the Dwarves to worship Loki and when they die he doesn't contest their deaths with Hel thereby boosting her power and making it more likely that she will survive to the next world (and so where she thinks she is saving the dwarven people from the honour system that the gods effectively bound too in fact she is merely damning them to an eternity of suffering to help Loki help his daughter).

Yeah, but that has little bearing on the plot, really.

Why it doesn't come up with Thor as much is because Thor is indicated to be a good god - but even then I believe that I have suggested in the past that he might be literal when he says he only needs a drop of purple to take care of the rest - i.e one drop mixed with a bucket of yellow might allow for hundreds of rifts to be sealed and so The Dark One would effectively end up with nothing and no leverage (and he merely didn't feel the need to burden Durkon with that information before sending him to negotiate).

Yes, you absolutely did that one. I remember it now (what I don't remember is you framing him as a bad guy for it). Thanks for the reminder, I'll try to make sure I never underestimate you again.
Still, the thing that up to UD Thor mostly just seems negligent and dumb, while in UD he suddenly becomes benevolent and wise seems to attract surprisingly few crazy theories despite the fact that we have something to actually work with there.

Because Thor has had much more characterization than the Dark One, meaning his goals and motives are much clearer and so less susceptible to speculation.

Please see above.

One fringe theory that I like, but only sometimes believe in, is that the Dark One is pulling some kind of con with Tiamat, Rat and Loki, and isn’t as angry as he seems.

While I wouldn't say I'd be ready to subscribe to it, this is not that bad indeed.
At any rate, I'm all about more Tiamat (although mainly not in this exact way).

[Fyraltari]

Still, the thing that up to UD Thor mostly just seems negligent and dumb, while in UD he suddenly becomes benevolent and wise seems to attract surprisingly few crazy theories despite the fact that we have something to actually work with there.

There’s only a contradiction if you want to see one. The difference between Thor in UD and Thor before is that in UD, Thor can actively influence things for once.
People’s behavior are context-dependent. There’s a time for screwing around and a time to get serious. UD was serious time.

While I wouldn't say I'd be ready to subscribe to it, this is not that bad indeed.
At any rate, I'm all about more Tiamat (although mainly not in this exact way).

The main reason was that Thor believes that the Dark One discovered the Snarl on his own while [spoiler=SoD]according to Redcloak, Rat ratted the gods out after a goblin priest stumble upon Lirian’s Rift[/quote]

Thor May have been simplifying for the sake of panel space efficiency, though.

[Riftwolf]

Also Summon Proxy isn't on the cleric spell list; presumably it's conferred to a High Priest by their God, but the God has to know about it first (from memory, d&d clerics can have their requested spells altered by their God (so if you're a Neutral cleric of Pelor, the DM- I mean your God- can stop you preparing so many Create Undeads), so it might be that on the days when the Gods need their High Priest to cast Summon Proxy, it replaces their domain slot or whatever).
The other Gods can't tell TDO about Summon Proxy until he reestablishes communications.

[ti'esar]

Because Thor has had much more characterization than the Dark One, meaning his goals and motives are much clearer and so less susceptible to speculation.

Also, the fact that the Dark One is kind of an uncommunicative enigma has been directly brought up in the comic. He doesn't communicate with the other gods (admittedly, the stated reasons are pretty understandable here) or even with his own high priest. That sort of thing understandably breeds speculation.

[Metastachydium]

There’s only a contradiction if you want to see one. The difference between Thor in UD and Thor before is that in UD, Thor can actively influence things for once.
People’s behavior are context-dependent. There’s a time for screwing around and a time to get serious. UD was serious time.

The way I remember it, granting spells and giving guidance are the two main modalities via which gods can actually influence things on the Material Plane. Someone who claims to remember every single mortal who ever worshipped him should be more than capable of keeping an eye on the single most important follower they've ever had (and by BRitF, Thor'S either realized that's Durkon, or he is an utter moron) and help them in times of need with the little things he can offer.
So, yes, if we ignore the evidence, there seems to be no contradiction.

The main reason was that Thor believes that the Dark One discovered the Snarl on his own while

Spoiler: SoD

Show

according to Redcloak, Rat ratted the gods out after a goblin priest stumble upon Lirian’s Rift

Thor May have been simplifying for the sake of panel space efficiency, though.

I'd give Rat a little leeway there.

Spoiler: SoD, p. 42

Show

Big Purple found out there is at least one creepy hole in the fabric of the universe he cannot make sense of, and his ”allies” would've just dug themselves even deeper were they not to explain what it is or claim they don't know either.

[Fyraltari]

The way I remember it, granting spells and giving guidance are the two main modalities via which gods can actually influence things on the Material Plane. Someone who claims to remember every single mortal who ever worshipped him should be more than capable of keeping an eye on the single most important follower they've ever had (and by BRitF, Thor'S either realized that's Durkon, or he is an utter moron) and help them in times of need with the little things he can offer.
So, yes, if we ignore the evidence, there seems to be no contradiction.

But he does. What more would you expect him to do? He can’t contact Durkon on his own (as evidenced by the fact that he assumed Odin engineered a situation where he could talk to Durkon) and he sent a Storm to warn the order that Durkon had been compromised.

[Metastachydium]

But he does. What more would you expect him to do?

I gave you two examples of him endangering Durkon's life as if it meant nothing to him inBRitF. He could have answered his prayer in some way when he had to take on Malack alone and he could have actually checked what's going on in Bleedingham during Nale's attack and figure out what Durkon needed, granting the spell. If he can remember billions of worshippers, the whole thing would have taken a second or less. But no, he had to contest a soul that was a lost cause (not that UD does not prove he could have tried to lodge an appeal later) in one case and had to go soak his feet in the other.

He can’t contact Durkon on his own (as evidenced by the fact that he assumed Odin engineered a situation where he could talk to Durkon) and he sent a Storm to warn the order that Durkon had been compromised.

Now, did he? That's never been confirmed as far as I remember (please do correct me if it was) and, well, we have precedent for folks reading a bit too much into sudden storms.

[Fyraltari]

I gave you two examples of him endangering Durkon's life as if it meant nothing to him inBRitF. He could have answered his prayer in some way when he had to take on Malack alone

Nohe could not, that fight happened on Adad’s turf not his, and he already got in trouble with the Southern Pantheon for bending the rules in Durkon’s favor on their land.

and he could have actually checked what's going on in Bleedingham during Nale's attack and figure out what Durkon needed, granting the spell. If he can remember billions of worshippers, the whole thing would have taken a second or less. But no, he had to contest a soul that was a lost cause (not that UD does not prove he could have tried to lodge an appeal later) in one case and had to go soak his feet in the other.

You do realize that saying he was busy trying to save a worshipper of his does not help you make the case that he isn’t presented as being benevolent, right?

The Bleedingham fight is trickier, I’ll grant you, but the reason Thor and his aide don’t recognize the spell probably hasn’t something to do with the fact that it’s not a spell they devised, it’s one Durkon created with Malack’s help. I don’t play D&D so I can’t speak with certainty, but it is my understanding that there’s some oddities/disagreement over how Cleric learning spells work exactly.

Now, did he? That's never been confirmed as far as I remember (please do correct me if it was) and, well, we have precedent for folks reading a bit too much into sudden storms.

The storm started the exact moment the Mechane entered the North. Doesn’t look like a coincidence.

[dancrilis]

... what I don't remember is you framing him as a bad guy for it ...

I didn't and I am not doing so here either - gods (whether Thor or The Dark One) can have plans which involve mortals which might not be the full plan.

] Thor mostly just seems negligent and dumb, while in UD he suddenly becomes benevolent and wise seems to attract surprisingly few crazy theories despite the fact that we have something to actually work with there.

Well if you want one:

... we have precedent for folks reading a bit too much into sudden storms.

It is possible that Durkon is right and that the Devas are wrong - Thor could have wanted Durkon to find out about the gates, wanted to keep his reasoning from the Devas and so started a storm while seemingly drunk to meet both requirements.

[Metastachydium]

Nohe could not, that fight happened on Adad’s turf not his, and he already got in trouble with the Southern Pantheon for bending the rules in Durkon’s favor on their land.

I'm pretty sure there is something like the Domain Agreement in place so that gods can give minor signs and stuff to help their clerics praying to them for guidance (I'm not talking about collapsing the pyramid on top of Malack's head, especially since that's not what Durkon asked for). Durkon is on Team Red's turf, after all, and he can cast as normal, as could a Western cleric in the North.
Even more to the point, Tiamat, a major Western goddess can deal out big time prophecies through her chosen left and right, although her chosen set up permanent residence in the Sunken Valley which is in the South. If that's not against the turf rules, neither should giving some hint to an important cleric be.

You do realize that saying he was busy trying to save a worshipper of his does not help you make the case that he isn’t presented as being benevolent, right?

Unless of course he likes the bet more than he tells us and he wants to kill Hel or at least mess up her badly.
On a more serious note, it does conflict with the image of ”wise Thor” either way. Like I said, debating souls was not all that urgent, and even if it was, he could still keep an eye on Durkon or at least have some subordinate do that and notify him if things get shaky. Guy doesn't have his priorities straight.

The Bleedingham fight is trickier, I’ll grant you, but the reason Thor and his aide don’t recognize the spell probably hasn’t something to do with the fact that it’s not a spell they devised, it’s one Durkon created with Malack’s help. I don’t play D&D so I can’t speak with certainty, but it is my understanding that there’s some oddities/disagreement over how Cleric learning spells work exactly.

Durkon mastered it, eventually, and he knew Death Ward even before that. Massed buff spells are not all that rare, either. Thor could have put two and two together if he cared to.

The storm started the exact moment the Mechane entered the North. Doesn’t look like a coincidence.

That's why I linked the strip I linked. That storm also broke out pretty much exactly when Miko caught up with the Order, and it stopped abruptly when she and the Order made peace agreed to a temporary cessation of hostilities. Also, unless dancrilis here is to be believed, it was a complete coincidence.

I didn't and I am not doing so here either - gods (whether Thor or The Dark One) can have plans which involve mortals which might not be the full plan.

K, then.

Well if you want one:

It is possible that Durkon is right and that the Deva's are wrong - Thor could have wanted Durkon to find out about the gates, wanted to keep his reasoning from the Deva's and so started a storm while seemingly drunk to meet both requirements.

Heh. Now we're talking. (But that also means Thor is an expert at yanking everybody's chains around him. Ominous!)

[tomandtish]

As I commented in another thread, Red Cloak may have the same problem we have. We (the readers) actually don't KNOW all that much about what is actually true. We know there are rifts/gates, and thanks to one particular comic we know there's something nasty behind it. But everything else we know is second hand. Told to us by those who may not understand what is happening or may have hidden motives.

Red Cloak knows what his God has told him, which may not be correct (either intentionally or otherwise). Thor talked to Durkon, but I notice Thor never said anything that would account for seeing a world inside a rift (as Blackwing did).... So does Thor not know everything either or is he holding some back for some reason?

[TooSoon]

Why did the last few strips turn into a discussion between mortals trying to convince each other? I thought this business was a matter between gods, as in the gods talking to each other through their clerics in Godsmoot. Roy's speech was useless there, because he wasn't part of the discussion. I thought Redcload would have to take the matter to his god and start channeling him so that Dark One and Thor could do their thing. The discussion is supposed to be at god level, isn't it? The clerics were not trying to convince each other at Godsmoot.

I get that redcloack hasn't spoken to his god personally before, but that's not a real obstacle- when the matter calls for it, it can be done. It's not up to RC to evaluate offers from a god to another god.

What do you think?

I mean assumedly the Dark One is watching what is going on now, so if he has any views about it he will express them to RC.