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  1. - Top - End - #91
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Darrin's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    Quote Originally Posted by WhamBamSam View Post
    I sorta figured if we got anyone going for a huge form, they'd be an Anthro-whale to avoid losing BAB, given that that prereq is not very forgiving. But as Venger said, there aren't a lot of terribly interesting options (Dire Snake, Dragonhawk, not sure what else) within Primeval's parameters to incentivize getting over that hurdle.
    I was working on a stub: Anthro Giant Constrictor Snake 3/Warblade 5/Fighter 1/Primeval 10. Starts large, gets to huge via Dire Snake form. It was really good at constricting things. But... that's all it did, so I lost interest in it.

    Anthro giant snake was LA +1, Anthro whale would have been LA +0, but... whale turning into a snake? Didn't make any coherent sense. What I *really* wanted was Anthro giant viper snake, also LA +0, but for some bizarre reason, that one gets a -8 Str adjustment. Constrict damage is based off of your Str bonus, and with a Str bonus of +0, it would have been laughably inept at the one thing it was supposed to be *good* at.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    WhamBamSam's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    I was working on a stub: Anthro Giant Constrictor Snake 3/Warblade 5/Fighter 1/Primeval 10. Starts large, gets to huge via Dire Snake form. It was really good at constricting things. But... that's all it did, so I lost interest in it.

    Anthro giant snake was LA +1, Anthro whale would have been LA +0, but... whale turning into a snake? Didn't make any coherent sense. What I *really* wanted was Anthro giant viper snake, also LA +0, but for some bizarre reason, that one gets a -8 Str adjustment. Constrict damage is based off of your Str bonus, and with a Str bonus of +0, it would have been laughably inept at the one thing it was supposed to be *good* at.
    I probably would have gone Dragonhawk, but "whale turning into a big bird" is similarly incongruous, and I think I accomplished what I would have done with it better with what I actually ended up doing.

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    Sai-don, Knight of the Tide - Bronze - IC LXXXIV

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    Obviously anthro whales evolved from dragonhawks, not seeing any ingongruity /s

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    So excited, going over these right now. Will present judgement ASAP

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Thumbs up Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    Great entries all around.

    A little surprised no one went Primeval (giant octopus)/Soul Eater, using the reading you get to inflict negative levels on all natural attacks. Primeval 10 charges your type to magical Beast, so you could enter Soul Eater even if you were originally a Humanoid.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Venger's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    I considered it, but this class has so many taxes it didn't seem worth it, especially since the soul eater level could only be taken at the end due to the ba req if you wanted to showcase magical beast type as a gain from primeval versus entering as something already nonhumanoid, plus the likely deduction in elegance for a 1 level dip.
    fight my brute! it's a lot of fun
    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Great entries all around.

    A little surprised no one went Primeval (giant octopus)/Soul Eater, using the reading you get to inflict negative levels on all natural attacks. Primeval 10 charges your type to magical Beast, so you could enter Soul Eater even if you were originally a Humanoid.
    The popular Wild Shape Ranger entry could've paid the Alertness tax with Urban Companion too. I did basically the same idea back in Fang of Llolth, but ended up latching onto something different early on for this one. I do have a Primeval Soul Eater stub that I quite like now that you've said it, but it might give away the game as to which build is mine, so I'll hold off until after the reveal.

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    Sir Driscoll Conia - Silver - IC L

    Nick Snarespan - Gold - IC LIII

    Lucy "Legs" Silvertail - Bronze - IC LXVIII

    Bolfarg of Knoss - Gold - IC LXXVII

    Ivarr Deathborn - Bronze - IC LXXVII

    Ahmtel - Silver - IC LXXVIII

    Tocke of Nessus - Gold - IC LXXIX

    The Blessed Third - Silver - IC LXXXI

    Galahad Galapagos - Gold - IC LXXXIV

    Sai-don, Knight of the Tide - Bronze - IC LXXXIV

  8. - Top - End - #98
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    I had a really neat idea for a landforged walker/warshaper who used dire badger form in order to snag rage, and then go frostrager and attack people from undergroudn with reach and +gazillion to strength/con/Na, but I didnt manage to format it in time....great entries everyone!

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    Quote Originally Posted by WhamBamSam View Post
    I probably would have gone Dragonhawk, but "whale turning into a big bird" is similarly incongruous, and I think I accomplished what I would have done with it better with what I actually ended up doing.
    I'd say a sea creature dreaming of flight in the air and sun makes perfect sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Empyreal Dragon View Post
    So excited, going over these right now. Will present judgement ASAP
    Good luck, Empyreal Dragon! And thank you!

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    Judging is still underway, I'm having to do a lot more in depth research and consideration of many of these builds.

    Good show all around but I havent had to verify the details of a build to this extent in awhile.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    Quote Originally Posted by Empyreal Dragon View Post
    Judging is still underway, I'm having to do a lot more in depth research and consideration of many of these builds.

    Good show all around but I havent had to verify the details of a build to this extent in awhile.
    There's a lot of book diving involved in this.

  12. - Top - End - #102
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    I am also still working and I hope I can get the bulk of it done come Friday, when I should have a load of free time.

  13. - Top - End - #103
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    I didn’t end up finding a build that I loved, so I sat out of this one, but I had a few ideas.

    I had two main issues with this class. The first was how heavily the primeval form was outclassed by similar abilities (wild shape in particular) that come online with even less investment. The second was that the main class feature worth building around, primeval form, comes online late and has embarrassingly few uses per day, meaning you either build something that benefits from primeval form but doesn’t require it (in which case another class is almost always a better option), or you build something that really properly takes advantage of primeval form and end up being really subpar outside of the one or two encounters per day where you can use your form for between 15 and 17 of your 20 levels.

    My main idea for how to get around the first issue was similar to Zaq’s: get small. The fact that unlike wild shape, primeval form had no lower size limit, meant that if I could find an appropriate creature for my primeval form, I could go down to tiny, diminutive or even fine well before a druid or MoMF wild shape ranger. Since the primeval gave a penalty to Strength for these forms rather than just setting your Strength at the Strength of your form, as wild shape would, my thought was to use a chaotic evil soulborn, whose incarnum defense at level 2 eliminates any Strength penalties. Then I’d take standard killer gnome tactics, find the smallest possible primeval animal, and hope for the best.

    As for the second issue, my thought was to go with some sort of divine minion for wild shape at will, which I could use to power my primeval form. Unfortunately, the wording on primeval nixed this a bit, since it required me to get wild shape from my class levels in order to use wild shape to assume primeval form. So, I briefly considered some way of getting wild shape as a class feature PLUS divine minion without fully outclassing the secret ingredient.

    The best I could do with all of this was a divine minion soulborn 4/wild shape ranger 5/primeval 10. That would give me wild shape at will that I could channel into primeval form, a bonus feat to ease the pre-req requirements, immunity to Strength penalties and some (very) limited meldshaping. I couldn’t find any fine-sized animals at all, but a prehistoric bat or toad got me to diminutive, which wasn’t too bad. It was about the best I could do under the circumstances… but in the end, I just wasn’t in love with the build, and decided not to submit.

    And in the end I’m glad I didn’t, because it turns out other people had WAY cooler ideas. Hats off especially to Primo Valendine Starchild, which is delightfully evil in all the right ways. Who knew that the keys to infinite strength and wisdom were buried in the unlikely combination of hellbreaker and primeval? Certainly not me! That one gets my HM vote.
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  14. - Top - End - #104
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    What special ingredient do you think is next?

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    No idea, but I'm rather hoping for Rage Mage at some point; it's on the cusp between steaming garbage and absolute greatness, and I am deeply curious to see if anyone can get it there :)

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    Rage Mage would be cool. I'd like to see Bloodhound (Cadv) as well at some point, though maybe it's too limited.

    I would be fascinated to see if anyone can pull off a Ravager (CW) build, though there's no way I'd try that one myself.

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Wildstag's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    It's interesting seeing so many unusual takes on a class that I love playing. I was kinda surprised to see so little Warshaper mixing, and only one dip into Fist of the Forest, but I guess getting all three or any two into the mix is pretty feat-taxing.

    Lately, I've used creatures that overlap in prehistory/modern-history that are Animals in D&D to get higher Strength/Constitution as options, specifically the Brown or Polar Bear are good options for higher strength potential than the Dire Lion.

    Also of interest is how evil-weighted the options here are.

    As for what the next one will be, are there specific limitations on the niche-ness or type of PrC? For example, a racial one with an "adaptation" statement that suggests how to limit it less (in regards to race), is such a PrC on/off the table? As a wild example, are PrCs like "Peregrine Runner" completely off the table?

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    I keep forgetting about the Dragonhawk, because of the somewhat obscure source. One of the few 8HD Huge animals out there. Does it count as a "prehistoric animal"? I guess it's a DM call, but I would say yes.

  19. - Top - End - #109
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    Rage mage would be cool.

  20. - Top - End - #110
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    On another (related) note: I'm also kind of interested in repeating some from the first 75 or so before I joined the boards. Would be kinda fund to build some of those classes.

  21. - Top - End - #111
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    Quote Originally Posted by RaiKirah View Post
    On another (related) note: I'm also kind of interested in repeating some from the first 75 or so before I joined the boards. Would be kinda fund to build some of those classes.

    I've been reading here on and off for a few years, but I'm very new to the Iron Chef. Still, I wouldn't be in favour of repeating old competitions. Too many people here were there when those happened and too many creative options were already used. Also, it would make it less interesting for future readers.

    Maybe when we somehow really run out of appropriate PRCs, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

  22. - Top - End - #112
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    I've wanted Rage Mage for a while, but I kinda think it'll be a Halloween round for October. Either something out of BoVD (Viscount's said he considers Mortal Hunter too good and that'd be two shape-shifting ingredients in a row, but maybe Demonologist or Thrall of Grazz't), Thrall of Etlab (basically a BoVD PrC from a different book), something that otherwise fits the theme somehow like Beast Heart Adept with its monsters, or going for real terror by finally inflicting Shining Blade on us.

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    Sir Driscoll Conia - Silver - IC L

    Nick Snarespan - Gold - IC LIII

    Lucy "Legs" Silvertail - Bronze - IC LXVIII

    Bolfarg of Knoss - Gold - IC LXXVII

    Ivarr Deathborn - Bronze - IC LXXVII

    Ahmtel - Silver - IC LXXVIII

    Tocke of Nessus - Gold - IC LXXIX

    The Blessed Third - Silver - IC LXXXI

    Galahad Galapagos - Gold - IC LXXXIV

    Sai-don, Knight of the Tide - Bronze - IC LXXXIV

  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Venger's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    Watch it be like gondian techsmith or something.
    fight my brute! it's a lot of fun
    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    Venger, can you be my full-time memory aid please?
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  24. - Top - End - #114
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    The Viscount's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    Rage Mage would be cool. I'd like to see Bloodhound (Cadv) as well at some point, though maybe it's too limited.

    I would be fascinated to see if anyone can pull off a Ravager (CW) build, though there's no way I'd try that one myself.
    I doubt I'll do Ravager. That class is real bad, and not in a way that I can see making for a good ingredient.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildstag View Post
    It's interesting seeing so many unusual takes on a class that I love playing. I was kinda surprised to see so little Warshaper mixing, and only one dip into Fist of the Forest, but I guess getting all three or any two into the mix is pretty feat-taxing.

    Lately, I've used creatures that overlap in prehistory/modern-history that are Animals in D&D to get higher Strength/Constitution as options, specifically the Brown or Polar Bear are good options for higher strength potential than the Dire Lion.

    Also of interest is how evil-weighted the options here are.

    As for what the next one will be, are there specific limitations on the niche-ness or type of PrC? For example, a racial one with an "adaptation" statement that suggests how to limit it less (in regards to race), is such a PrC on/off the table? As a wild example, are PrCs like "Peregrine Runner" completely off the table?
    We've done racial PrCs before, like the one two rounds ago. Peregrine Runner is definitely not off the table, though I've given some thought about it, since the LA +1 is a little different than your average racial PrC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    Watch it be like gondian techsmith or something.
    I'm not inclined to use 10/10 casting PrCs.
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  25. - Top - End - #115
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    I hope judging is going well! Do you guys think you'll make it for the deadline?

  26. - Top - End - #116
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    Tonight is my night off so the plan was to post my judgement overnight. This was a hard one to evaluate.

  27. - Top - End - #117
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    Hiro Quester's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    Quote Originally Posted by Empyreal Dragon View Post
    Tonight is my night off so the plan was to post my judgement overnight. This was a hard one to evaluate.
    we are all looking forward to see your evaluations. Thanks for taking the time and headaches to judge. (There are a few decisions to make as a judge here, that I would not know how to make.)
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  28. - Top - End - #118
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    Lu'ung 14.5
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    Originality3.5
    starting off with a skilled city dweller pouncebarian is sadly one of the most common tactics in optimization, so i did have to ding you a bit here, however... moving right off of that you took berserker strength, and i have to say the idea of berserker strength on a level dip to get a double strength rage early on? clever, and i havent seen berserker strength used for.... nearly anything. then we move into druid, where.... im not sure ive ever seen that much effort put into a replace all the things druid focused on urban use, so i gave a nice bonus here, especially the choice to forgo both wildshape, an animal companion, and a druidic avenger isnt.... something im accustomed to especially PAIRED with urban druid traits. then you take dragonscale husk, a lovely little choice, and something i pretty much never see actually made good use of, so compliments to the chef right there, unfortunately the choice of a tiger claw unarmed swordsage is.... sadly worn out, but then IMMEDIATELY made up for by the pyromantic focus of desert wind. i cannot REMEMBER the last time i saw a desert wind focused build. and sadly, i have seen many a "Dragon emulation" build before. due to the constant back and forth between common and unusual tactics, the emotional whiplash left you with a better than average score but not exceptional

    Power3.5
    and away we go off into adventure, the damage potential on this is HUGE on a charge, and charging is a great way for this build to work, more importantly is the fact that it just KEEPS getting stronger. start a battle off, first hit gives you power, then you rage, then you turn into a dinosaur and the more they hurt you the tougher you get. i gotta say, usually im hesitant with a build that needs to get hurt to get strong, but in this case ill make an exception due to just how much damage potential it puts out, which brings me to the other point of view... while your strength is massive and you do have a truly STAGGERING attack routine, the fact is, your power doesnt begin to approach the standard of damage output i come to expect until you're already taking massive amounts of damage, and while the fire damage is a lovely addition that adds up quickly, fire is the most resisted type in the game, so unfortunately while an impressive melee combatant, the SOURCE of your power does offset the score.


    Elegance3.5
    i almost feel wierd giving the same score for three categories? but here we are. ill make this one very simple, you didnt lose anything as far as pre-requisites, but the only issue is the fact that you needed four whole classes before you got into the SI, two distinct dips, and then splashing into both swordsage and druid. then the sheer number of alternative class features? its almost like none of the classes you took are actually part of the build? but altogether, i gave another middling score here.


    UotSI4
    short and simple, you were just short of a perfect score, but since you didnt finish the SI, i had to give you a small hit here.





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    Originality4
    alright lets crack into this and.... undying monk? WHAT?! i guess thats one way to meet your pre-requisites, definitely not one i expected to see for sure,then we dip into druid and... once again you shock and stun me, not only do you snag druidic avenger, but the choice to take snow tiger berserker for your pouncing needs instead of a barbarian dip, and not only that but avoid barbarian altogether, very nicely done, unfortunately druid was an expected and almost assumed base for me coming into this round, mild downturn on warshaper, its the quintessential dip for pretty much any class with shapeshifting of some sort, but then we're back to the good, natures warrior is something that i see so little that i actually FORGOT it was a class that existed, so this definitely earned you some points right there, the presentation was.... oddly entertaining, and the theme of a fully "self sufficient" entity was absolutely delightful, notably while i came in expecting many "emulation" builds with this.... actually creating your own cthulhu was delightful to see, all of this leading up to a heavy focused constrict build was definitely an uncommong and interesting decision. gonna repeat here, the idea of a great old one as your "prehistoric" form was clever as heck, cant get much more primeval than that, so I'm gonna give you this lovely score here.

    Power4
    and here we delve into some interesting territory, on the one hand, HOLY COW thats one hell of a constrict routine, with the buffs from your spells, paired alongside the tremendously powerful primeval form you've constructred, which again, emulating a great old one is apparently not only cool but DAMN strong, in melee combat, an attack routine like thai, with constrict, on THAT statline? now that is one heck of a combatant. a 70 foot flight speed on 20 foot reach, this guy is a very hard, and very annoying to deal with enemy. I'll give you a high score here.


    elegance1
    hoo boy, here comes the hard part, while tracking pre-requisites, despite the mild note on changing the order, you did build the actual writeup with self-sufficient and improved grapple where they were, this on its own gave you a minor ding, then we get to the major part of why your build in particular was hard for me to judge, Whirling frenzy, i have decided that yes, your decision was valid, and will judge as if ACF chaining is allowed, but i have decided to penalize it for elgance on that, then we get into the fact that you not only dipped monk, then took druid, then you also dipped both natures warrior and warshaper, then picked up primeval, so you did get a small ding right here for excessive multiclassing, then we get to the part where, while i didnt deduct anything from your score for it, your entry was hard for me to break down exactly what was going on at first. that didnt affect your values, but the rest of it did leave you with the unfortunate minimum score in this category

    UotSI4
    and thus we come forth to redemption, you managed to get exceptional use of the SI, your build is not only practically ENTIRELY focused on powering the SI, but vastly improves every aspect, bringing an otherwise disparate whole into a sublime dish as proper SI use should, the one penalty i had to give was for not finishing the SI.




    Ghurg16.5
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    Originality3.5
    wildshape ranger with FE:arcanists, bog standard classic, but it gets a bit sad to see on every ranger base, so this did dock you a little bit, then we went into.... whirling frenzy poucnebarian.... yet another sadly unfortunate standard base to a build, but whats this undertone of flavor i see? is that... DOUBLE TOTEMS?! AND A HORSE TOTEM AT THAT! this earned you a slight touch of a bonus here, but sadly we moved on to warblade, which, a two level dip, with pretty much the quintessential discipline layout, like... to a T, pairing up with this was a slightly blander flavor, but oh my lord the FEATS frostblood orc to qualify for dragonblood soulmelds and rapidstrike is just *mwah*, and i have to admit, purposely setting up your SI to not be the capstone so you could convert the endurance feats for late game rapidstrike was very clever, and then i have to mention the SOULMELDS again. that was just a delightful little spice to the build. i was torn here from the horse toem and incarnum choices paired with your racial decision, and the clever use of endurance, but unfortunately the blandness of yet another whirling pouncebarian and arcanist enemy shaperanger offset this, especially with the ever so common warblade dip. so all in all i gave you an above average score in this department, but not a phenomenal one


    Power3.5
    this ones fairly easy to sum up, you've got a solid enough AC, even while frenzied, you have a strong nine fold attack routine, with headlong rush, leading the charge, and a strength of 30, it nets you several HUNDRED points of damage on top, pairing up with your white raven tactics nets you some solid action economy to go through another nine attacks, and thats all you got, primeval can get some hefty power behind it, and this just felt lackluster, as a charger you fall behind a bit, you dont make a fantastic tank, so a midling score for a midling power

    Edit:due to considering dispute and a misstep on my part, I have chosen to expand the power score here to accommodate greater damage potential, but lack of utility.


    Elegance4.5
    short sweet and to the point, you met all your prerequisites, you avoided any dodgy ways of qualification, you even avoided jumping through awkward hoops, with one exception, while it got you points on originality, the endurance trick to qualify for rapid strike as your capstone did lose you out a bit on elegance just for the clunky feel of it, and the small detour into warblade on an otherwise smooth transitioning build while it didnt penalize you for points on its own, did come to mind on this category. all in all though you got a high rating in elegance for how well it all came together, and the delightful use of incarnum, double totem, wildshape ranger and primeval for a solid thematic "totem spirits" idea was a delicious blend.


    UotSI[5]
    it's perfect, your build not only synergizes mechanically, but aesthetically and thematically, you make exceptional use of the primeval class features and not only build up for them but improve UPON them, using them to achieve a difficult to manage feat kit as an outstanding capstone, altogether i couldnt complain for use of the SI. 5/5




    Gharg18.5
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    Orginality4
    Much like his brother before him, Gharg takes similar penalty right here for the ever so commonly sprung wildshape ranger with FE:arcanists, additionaly, the use of elder evils is not just a regular occurence in optimizing in general, but also pops up dang near every round of this contest, the sheer commonality of it got you dinged for another penalty, but then you swung it around me, with the arcane stunt swashbuckler, that. was definitely not something i thought i'd come across here, and it definitely added a surprising undertone to the bulild, then we move onto your choice of thrall to juiblex which, i'll give you this, for a primeval, going so far back as the raw protoplasm of life itself is definitely a surprising choice, and the decision to abuse the combination of both wildshape AND polymorph traits granted by primeval is something i really had to scratch my head at, i havent seen much use done with shenanigans like that before, and i applaud it, furthering that, the choice of using primeval to ACQUIRE magical capability was... a surprising element. and for these interesting ideas i gave a rather high score in this category


    Power4.5
    Now here we get to the wierdness, as common as wildshape ranger is, it's very good, and your build is.... surprisingly tricky, where a typical primeval build would focus heavily on being a sheer melee bruiser, you chose to instead accentuate the shapeshifting power in a strange way, using it to open up a tremendous toolkit of buffs, with the option of applying your phenomenal base stats to a more supernaturally potent form, or choosing to swap out into
    your primeval state but maintain large numbers of magical capabilities, and the other fringe benefits of your power, low HD demons and oozes arent the cream of the crop for summoning, but it adds yet more utility to your build, while lacking in the raw power department, and you are lacking behind just a tad, i have to give this points for the sheer useage of it's versatility. the lack of raw damage potential, and the low grade of forms available to you did take you down a bit, so i settled for the average score. but after some further consideration while having neat tricks to do, it just doesnt bring a lot of strength to bear, feeling very lackluster even at its own game

    Edit:upon considering dispute and my miscalculation on some key factors, I have to give the utility benefit TO your charging capability, and adjust for my mistake on the statline. For this you get the rare joy of a full 2 point jump.


    Elegance5
    this build in a word was.... seamless, it went on the palate smoother than a fresh jar of skippy, while the endurance trick would have cost points, it was a singular feat in this case, and i made an exception for the simple fact that everything ties together so perfectly, with your ranger base being used to qualify for your duelist dip, while utilizing the two together to qualify into your thrall of juiblex for a seamless transition into primeval, which synergizes back into your thrall of juiblex and wildshape ranger, then all of them transitioning back into thrall at the end for a perfect cherry on top of the build was just delectable, i didnt see any issues as far as pre-requisites and i have to give this a solid perfect score


    UotSI5
    Once again its just so perfectly tied together, the thematic connection, the mechanical useage, and everything. i dont have anything to say about this. good job.




    Primo Valendino Starchild12.5
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    Originality5
    i honestly was so confused here, but lets get into what i finally came to conclude. passive way monk as a starter? classic way monk starter. invisibile fist? you can always see it coming. but! a lot of people often forget you can abandon a style partway through, and i give you credit for that little trick,then... antiquarian.... that's uncommon, and whats this im tasting.... undertones of wilderness rogue.... the halfling racial levels.... and penetrating strike? now thats a lovely spice to an already strange mix of flavors and then HELLBREAKER. that right there netted you yet another bonus, and just went from there, now while hellbreaker was already an interesting twist, holy crud i wasnt ready for that dive down the rabbit hole, and good god man, you made me go for a dive down my books, and after a LONG duration of cross referencing, sampling, and in depth reasearch i have to conclude that not only does this idea work, but it has not been done before. and then further combining this with ancestral knowledge and stone blessed, just amusingly a good idea.
    perfect score for just.... blowing my mind


    Power5
    I didnt want to give this to you, I really didnt, but the simple fact is, you're practically omniscient, you can casually do.... anything within the bounds of skills, access epic skillchecks, slap the tarrasque into 0 HP and then autosucceed on BoVD sacrifice to wish it dead, this is a casual act for you at this point. It's frankly ridiculous. You wanted theory Op, you got Theory op.


    Elegance1
    you not only fall under way too much dipping, but you also go a step BEYOND normal, replace all the things ACF use, losing points for the monk style change trick, and while you flawlessly meet all prerequisites, your build is like throwing all the things in your pantry into a stew and hoping it works out, but....unfortunately i cant deny that you did manage to get everything exactly as it needs to be. but, the sheer hoops you jump through in ORDER to qualify, the flagrant abuse of rules, and the absurd ways of meeting all your methods is just.... i gave you the minimum here.

    UotSI1.5
    ill make this part as quick as i can, you barely touched the SI, and definitely did not complete it, these were two severe penalties, BUT, unfortunately it is EXTREMELY centric to the entire build, with every last detail focused on use of its class feature or designed to work from it, keyword, feature, while you make great use of it, truly i applaud your madness, you completely disregard the entire rest of the class, and so i could not give a better score here,



    Valindra18
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    Originality4
    I will make it clear that i dont penalize for fluff, but i do give points for it, and i must admit, the idea of a lolth-touched monster being taken as a slave to justify the drow ACFs is.... unusually something i havent strolled across before. the entire story and everything brought it together nicely and i have to admit, i loved reading it. you netted a small bonus here for a genuinely creative background, champion of the wild is definitely an interesting choice for a ranger, and the decision to use primeval for a RANGED build.... i didnt see that coming but dang. this was, unfortunately mildly impacted by the omnipresence of both arcane hunter and lion totem barbarian. due to this you netted a less than perfect score, but the creativity was deserving of better than average


    Power4
    ranged builds are notoriously difficult to build for, volley archery moreso, but between your use of animal companion for a decent poison, the ranged pin, and the hilarious image of an octopus wielding an array of pole-arms and crossbows being actually effective.... i gotta give you this, and with a 25 attack routine pouncing, with strength AND dex to damage, you make up for your lackluster damage output and the low ability of poison at high levels through SHEER VOLUME. all in all its a solid build but just short of a perfect score.


    Elegance:5
    no wierd an unusual stuff here, a monstrous humanoid lolth-touched drow slave? that lines up perfectly, anthropomorphic animal transitioning into its normal self? again, good choice, double drow racial ACFs? looking good... no pre-requisite problems.... nice.... im gonna give you the elegance stamp of approval here.

    UotSI5
    finished the entire class? check. made use of every feature? check. ties in to the build? check. no complaints here.




    Free15
    Spoiler
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    Originality2
    arcane hunter, wildshape ranger, seen it so many times. master of many forms on a wildshape ranger? that was another penalty just because it is such a common direction for a wildshape ranger. animal lord though? really pushing into that shapeshifting ideal, but animal lord in and of itself is extremely uncommon, and ive literally never seen a birdlord when it does come up, so this is already turning your score upwards, but... all told, it's a power attacking natural attack charger, It's a tried and true method, and not honestly that creative of one unfortunately. birdlord was your saving grace, but i gave you a minimal score here.

    Power3
    short sweet and to the point, 40+ strength with power attack on 19 BaB, with a five attack routine, giant forms and humanoid forms. it's decent, but not fantastic, this build was.... alright? It's a little lacklustre.


    Elegance5
    I'll make this short too, you avoided massive quantity of dipping, all your PrCs are built off of your base, and everything flows perfectly. i dont have any comments on a simple perfect score

    UotSI5
    as elegance above, your entire build synergizes with itself with a solid focus on the winged land chicken, you finish the SI. no comments.




    jakkan ha'gar11
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    Originality3
    I was not entirely sure where to go with this one, but I'll start by giving you props on the free action healing abuse. past that.... a ranger barbarian warshaper, seen it, so much, i had to dock you here for that one. past that.... i just really didnt see anything innovative? but i liked the use of divine minion and dragon wildshape. so i gave you a middling score


    Power5
    i was very confused on where to rate this one, while dragon wildshape forms are cool, and infinite in-combat and out-of combat healing is nice, you dont have much in the way of combat power, but you raised a good point on defense. so i had to go, through every, single, dragon of small or medium size. in the game. thanks by the way for that, and evaluate EXACTLY what your sheer tanking capacity was. so, for nothing else than the fact that you can casually pick up damn near any and every immunity, as well as movement type, and change an unlimited number of times, i gave you this.


    Elegance1
    ranger, barbarian, fighter, warshaper, divine minion, i definitely docked you for just a touch too much going on here, then we got into.... your use of divine minion. picking up dragon touched as your third level feat, and then.... i could keep going but altogether the build just felt.... so clunky. but given that you met all your prequisites, i couldnt drop you majorly here. but.... then we get into the fact that you are a mage-bred, horrid, creature.... you.... cant apply templates to polymorph forms, or wildshape forms. so..... that did take a rather major hit for the two templates.


    UotSI2
    you finished the entire class, which was off to a good start, your build definitely works to function around its abilities, which is nice, but.... while you were doing good, altogether the entire dish feels like primeval was added.... because it had to be, rather than because it was central to the build? it seemes like ana fterthought and not actually necesarry for the build as a whole, and then while you took the entire class, your entire gimmick actually.... doesnt need it at all? so i gave just above the minimum here.




    Liz17
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    Originality4
    Arcane hunter ranger was a slight ding, just for the sheer commonality of it, but immediately forgiven for the sheer surprise at mortal bane, only to then be hit by the commonality of an elder evil devotion, but.... i enjoyed the clever idea of using a parrot as the talking brains of the operation so to speak. and then i never thought id come across mortal hunter anytime soon, i definitely enjoyed that subtle undertone flavoring the build.


    Power3.5
    while i absolutely loved this build, i was wary at first, mortal hunter was definitely interesting, and the normal flaws of smite, and it's effective favored enemy were... less than stellar, and this is further compounded by a pretty standard ranger base. but with cave ankylosaurus, your prodigious strength, and lovely attack routine, plus the use of power attack, you can be a decent enough attacker. altogether though, the build is a bit lacklustre against non-mortal, non-arcanist enemies. but.... for the sheer fact that you make a highly effective caster killer, i gave a small bonus here. altogether the build was decent at what it did, but not amazing.


    Elegance5
    I would almost never give a perfect score on elegegance, really its rare, but your build was just so... perfectly tied together, i had to give you this. a full ranger base moving into a ranger prestige class with polymorphing features, a devout follower of ragnora moving into primeval from that, honestly it just fit so smoothly i couldnt afford to let it go.


    UotSI4.5
    short and simple, the only penalty you took here was for the small favoring of your mortal hunter side over your primeval, had a greater focus been given to the SI, it would have been perfect.



    frough-gee16.5
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    originality4.5
    i was going to penalize you for the arcane hunter barbarian entry, but the favored enviroment and spiritual connection saved you right here, after that it was just one thing after another, deep warden? heck yeah. but best of all, YOURE A TOAD! I never guess at a toad primeval form this entire round, and i've never even seen a toad as any favored form. i gotta say that right there got you this just for the sheer novelty of a toad, and a build built for swallow whole is just uncommong enough to get you this beautiful score right here.


    power3
    Alas, the good times couldnt keep hopping along, while an interesting build to be sure, your massive con gives your great survivability, and your benefits to will saves are nice, but sadly swallow whole is not a strong force, nor is your grappling of exceptional use here either, while all of this is good in and of itself, the build fails to make strong use of any of it's features, leaving it a bit lackluster.


    Elegance4
    then we move on to.... elegance. you did take a penalty for the multiclassing sadly, but past that... i got nothing.


    UotSI5
    no comments



    Ocavo17
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    Originality3.5
    I'm just gonna start straight into it, I did not expect a binder warblade base, definitely not. but beyond the initial surprise, and the cleverness of using binder to fight in an aquatic form, it's.... not honestly stunning. i wish i had a more complex evaluation. but i gave a slightly above average score for the odd binder base

    Power3.5
    How to make this short and sweet.... its.... darn good with the reach, the combat reflexes and mage slayer mean you produce a LOT of AoO, and your multigrab potential with 20 foot reach.... you ARE the CC. i love it, but beyond that one initial nicety.... the build itself doesnt get much?


    Elegance5
    ive seen more perfect elegance scores this round than i ever thought id give. and you continue to contribute.


    UotSI5

    You my friend, have no complaints on my end




    Son of Keyrock17.5
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    originality4 good god, i have only ever seen one person use a STINK based build, and it was just a side feature, building yourself around a dire vulture stench with incarnum for totemist is..... odd enough as is, and on its own this would have netted you above average. go ahead and take it.

    Power3.5your early totemist levels did you a lot of favors, but unfortunately, soulborn is bad even for a dip, but you managed to redeem yourself just by how beefy a dire vulture form can actually be with your base of incarnum. i had to relearn and memorize all the soulmelds for this.


    Elegance5continuing a trend, thank you by the way, this is the single most elegant round ive ever judge, and your build is absolutely perfect, i made the exception for the minor dip because of the incarnum theme synergy.

    UotSI5
    oh gods.... the smell is killing me.... please just take this score and go.


    please do not post yet, still doing the judgement.
    Last edited by Empyreal Dragon; 2020-10-09 at 12:28 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #119
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Nov 2018

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    I apologize for the delay, I had to learn and memorize.... so many things for this judgement. and then life got in my way. HOWEVER. this has been the single most elegant round ive ever had to judge. and i saw a lot of great creativity this round that i wasnt expecting. i loved every entry, thank you all so much. except jakkan because while i enjoyed your build, having to memorize the statblock of every dragon in the game was not as fun as it sounds
    Last edited by Empyreal Dragon; 2020-10-08 at 01:36 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #120
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DeAnno's Avatar

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    Jun 2011
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

    It's nice to see one set of scores in! Are we still hoping for judgements from ZamielVanWeber as well, or are we going to ship with what we have and start moving on to the next round?

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