Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

[PrismCat21]

Looks like there's a tie for Bronze so far.
Empyeal Dragon, think you can edit the last three judgements to show the score by the name like the others?

[RaiKirah]

Empyreal Dragon - Thank you for judging! This was a monumental task this round, and I for one am grateful. On my part I have no disputes. Thanks again!

[H_H_F_F]

Thanks for judging, Empyreal!

I, too, would like to know if we're still waiting on a second judge.

[The Viscount]

Thank you for judging Empyreal Dragon. Your efforts as always are greatly appreciated. In the interests of keeping things moving, I will give our chefs 48 hours for any disputes (assuming we are not receiving additional judging, if we are we will obviously extend) after which I will post the reveal and the next round.

Speaking of disputes, here are 2:

Thanks for judging Empyreal Dragon. I think that most of what you said about Ghurg and Gharg is fair, but that you underrated their ability as melee brutes.

Both have Pounce, massive Str (counting Ghurg's Whirling Frenzy bonus, they both hit 50 in Primeval Form before items - it seems like you may have only noticed the 30 which they have in natural form), long attack routines (by my count, Ghurg actually tops out at 13 attacks, not 9, if that makes a difference, while Gharg's Pounce routine ends up with 9 attacks counting the two Rakes), and Headlong Rush doubling everything. I would say that both of them have damage output that's comparable to or even better than other builds which received higher scores in Power, seemingly mostly on that basis.

Regarding Gharg in particular, optimized charge damage tends to become overkill past a certain point, and being able to reliably execute a charge ends up mattering more than further bonuses. As things that prevent charging include physical barriers, movement restrictions, and not being able to see the target, having native access to Ethereal Movement, Tactical Teleportation, Freedom of Movement, and True Seeing, will ultimately probably make his damage output more consistent and, practically speaking, likely actually better than that of his peers with similar charging shticks.

Thanks for judging, Empyreal Dragon. While I think that overall Froggy’s scores have been more than fair, I do have a small dispute regarding her “power”.

The power section only mentions swallow whole offense wise, and attributes to Con only defensive value (for HP,(obviously) will saves, and double Con to AC.) While swallow whole is certainly a cherry on top, Froggy's attack routine is based on Con as well as on grapple. A usual standard action is either:

an insightful strike / greater insightful strike, (concentration, based on Con, to damage) with her bite, which has poison (save DC based on con) on top of which come the improved grab+constrict (weight of the mountain stance) + maybe swallow whole, or:

Her breath weapon, doing damage depending on level, the DC of which is based on Con.

Again, the score seems fair enough if that's what you think she deserves. I just wanted to make sure you noted that her attacks are more powerful than described, are entirely based around her pumped Con, and also utilize the poison of the toad and compensate for its single natural attack. It's not just the grapple aspects.

Also, just as an aside, the originality section says she's an arcane hunter, which she isn't. It might be just a copy/paste error, though, and probably isn't a big deal.

Again, thanks for judging!

[Venger]

Updated table

Name of Dish	Stub	Primeval Form	Score Judge 1	Chef
Lu'ung, The Dragon's Fury	Neutral Evil Human Barbarian 1/Druid 6/Fighter 1/Swordsage 3/Primeval 9	megaraptor	14.5	-
Derlek, Unwitting Minion of the Great Dreamer	NE human undying way monk 2/druidic avenger 5/warshaper 2/nature's warrior 3/primeval 8	giant octopus	13	-
The Brothers Ghurg and Gharg The Twin-Pac Primeval (Ghurg)	CE Frostblood Orc Ranger 3/Barbarian 5/Warblade 2/Primeval 10	cave ankylosaurus	16	-
The Brothers Ghurg and Gharg The Twin-Pac Primeval (Gharg)	CE Frostblood Orc Ranger 3/Swashbuckler 2/Thrall of Jubilex 5/Primeval 10	dire lion	16.5	-
Primo Valendino Star	LG > CE strongheart halfling passive way halfling monk 2/wilderness rogue 3/hellbreaker 8/ primeval 2/stoneblessed 3/fighter 1/wilderness rogue 4	swindlespitter	12.5	-
Valindra	CE Lolth-Touched Anthropomorphic Giant Octopus Monstrous Humanoid 2 / Rogue 1 / Fighter 1 / Ranger 4 / Barbarian 1 / Primeval 10	giant octopus	18	-
Free	CN gully dwarf ranger 5/momf2/birdlord 3/ primeval 10	megaraptor	15	-
Jakkan Ha'gar	CN ghostwise halfling Minion 1/Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Barbarian 1/ Warshaper 3/ primeval 10	horrid magebred dire badger	11	-
Liz	NE neraph ranger 5/mortal hunter 3/primeval 10/mortal hunter 5	cave ankylosaurus	17	-
Frough-Gee	NG female wild dwarf dragonborn of Bahamut (Heart). Ranger 1/ Barbarian 4/ fist of the forest 1/ deepwarden 2/ warblade 2/ primeval 10	dire toad	16.5	-
Ocavo, the Weeping Warrior	CN Desert Orc Warblade 6/Binder 4/Giant Octopus Primeval 10	giant octopus	17	-
Son of Keyrock	CE Neanderthal Totemist 7/Soulborn 3/Primeval 10	dire vulture	17.5	-

[Empyreal Dragon]

Due to disputes I have chosen to reevaluate the frost orc bros. And edited their scores to account for that. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.


Frough-gee, I apologize, arcane hunter was a mistake on my part, I meant it to be wild shape ranger, but either way, I did notice her other capabilities, I just enfolded them under grapple and felt the breath weapon was not enough to improve the score. Due to her limitations, I stand by my judgement. Thank you.

[Venger]

Thanks for the quick turnaround on those disputes, Empyreal Dragon.

Updated table below.

Name of Dish	Stub	Primeval Form	Score Judge 1	Chef
Lu'ung, The Dragon's Fury	Neutral Evil Human Barbarian 1/Druid 6/Fighter 1/Swordsage 3/Primeval 9	megaraptor	14.5	-
Derlek, Unwitting Minion of the Great Dreamer	NE human undying way monk 2/druidic avenger 5/warshaper 2/nature's warrior 3/primeval 8	giant octopus	13	-
The Brothers Ghurg and Gharg The Twin-Pac Primeval (Ghurg)	CE Frostblood Orc Ranger 3/Barbarian 5/Warblade 2/Primeval 10	cave ankylosaurus	16	-
The Brothers Ghurg and Gharg The Twin-Pac Primeval (Gharg)	CE Frostblood Orc Ranger 3/Swashbuckler 2/Thrall of Jubilex 5/Primeval 10	dire lion	18.5	-
Primo Valendino Star	LG > CE strongheart halfling passive way halfling monk 2/wilderness rogue 3/hellbreaker 8/ primeval 2/stoneblessed 3/fighter 1/wilderness rogue 4	swindlespitter	12.5	-
Cephala	CE Lolth-Touched Anthropomorphic Giant Octopus Monstrous Humanoid 2 / Rogue 1 / Fighter 1 / Ranger 4 / Barbarian 1 / Primeval 10	giant octopus	18	-
Free	CN gully dwarf ranger 5/momf2/birdlord 3/ primeval 10	megaraptor	15	-
Jakkan Ha'gar	CN ghostwise halfling Minion 1/Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Barbarian 1/ Warshaper 3/ primeval 10	horrid magebred dire badger	11	-
Liz	NE neraph ranger 5/mortal hunter 3/primeval 10/mortal hunter 5	cave ankylosaurus	17	-
Frough-Gee	NG female wild dwarf dragonborn of Bahamut (Heart). Ranger 1/ Barbarian 4/ fist of the forest 1/ deepwarden 2/ warblade 2/ primeval 10	dire toad	16.5	-
Ocavo, the Weeping Warrior	CN Desert Orc Warblade 6/Binder 4/Giant Octopus Primeval 10	giant octopus	17	-
Son of Keyrock	CE Neanderthal Totemist 7/Soulborn 3/Primeval 10	dire vulture	17.5	-

[H_H_F_F]

Thanks for the table, Venger.

[Empyreal Dragon]

Apologies for the long judgement. This was a hell of a round, and it taught me some new tricks.

[daremetoidareyo]

Apologies for the long judgement. This was a hell of a round, and it taught me some new tricks.

This round was tougher to judge than most. On top of all of the books that entries typically use, every single entry had a monster statblock attached to it. And some of the builds expanded the repertoire of monster statblocks significantly.

The thing i liked most about your judgment was your reassessment with the disputes. That layer of the contest gets tricky and emotional, but you handled it superbly, and it's worthy of pointing that out.

[Empyreal Dragon]

There's no reason for it to be emotional, the dispute is either valid or it isnt. I'm merely a dragon, we make mistakes. And if one is pointed out, we fix it.


Sometimes you can stand by your initial point. Other times the dispute makes you reconsider. Its nothing to get upset about. And they were right, my math was off

[H_H_F_F]

You are of course right, Empyreal, but I think having your work questioned by strangers can get emotional - and you handled it excellently.

[The Viscount]

Here is one more.

A comment for Empyreal Dragon’s consideration, on behalf of Derlek:

Thanks for your thoughtful and thorough judging, Empyreal dragon. We all appreciate the time and effort involved.

I want to ask about consistency across entries. Particularly Derlek’s scores, though it might apply to others. Particularly on elegance and power.

On Elegance you penalize Derlek for the order of feats and for the whirling frenzy ACF, and for excessive multiclassing. But each of those first two were described as optional (feats only ordered that way for comedic effect, and the idea of whirling tentacles just seems funny). Neither is essential to the build and both, it was noted, can be changed without significant consequence.

And on multiclassing, none of Derlek’s dips were a single level, while many other builds that scored high on elegance included many single-level dips, and some also had as many different classes (or more). You describe the build as well-designed to advantage power the SI. It seems perhaps overly harsh, then, that this build earns the same minimal elegance score as another build with what you describe as “way too much dipping” and “flagrant abuse of rules”.

On power, you don’t seem to give anything but praise for how challenging a combatant Derlek could be. But the rating seems lower than the description seems to suggest you might have intended.

So I’m humbly and respectfully asking whether it might be fair to please check whether the ratings are correct, and consistent between submissions.

[Empyreal Dragon]

Addressing the most recent dispute, after consideration I have chosen to leave the ratings as is.


Part of my judgement was based on the dipping and multiclassing of prestige classes, which I do put a slightly harsher penalty for excessive multiclassing for.

Additionally, I judge writeups as presented, regardless of alternatives given, in keeping with consistency with past judges and with my own prior judgements.

More to the point, primo valedino starchild only received the minimum score because it is, the minimum, and I cannot go below it, elsewise the two dishes would not have received the same score in elegance. The build you used as comparison, the starchild again, did in fact have greater multiclassing than you, and a much less elegant build. But the iron chef challenge presents a minimum score in the category, thus why his rating is on par with your own.


As far as power, while your build was delightfully aggravating to consider as an opponent, I don't believe it to be worth a full 5 star rating, the closest rating to your own recieved an equivalent rank in this score. The ones surpassing you were capable of unbelievable polymorph and wild shape shenanigans, or having a TO level statline.


If my scoring seemed inconsistent I apologize. But on reevaluating the dishes. I believe Derlek is deserving the ratings in power and elegance I gave him for the reasons mentioned above.

[Thurbane]

Have we ever had a ToB PrC as an ingredient?

Never mind: Bloodstorm Blade

[WhamBamSam]

Have we ever had a ToB PrC as an ingredient?

We've had Shadow Sun Ninja and Bloodstorm Blade. The other 10 level PrCs are all sorta too good and Eternal Blade especially really restricts entry with its BAB+10 requirement.

[Thurbane]

Thanks. I'm gonna just keep spruiking Dragon Samurai then

It might just be in the "so bad it's bad" category, but I can think of one op tactic to focus around...

[The Viscount]

Sam has taken the words from my mouth. Eternal Blade is good, and quite hard to enter with its BA requirement. Jade Phoenix Mage and Ruby Knight Vindicator have advancement of spells and maneuvers, so the entry is even narrower.

While we await scores from our second judge, here is one more dispute for you, Empyreal Dragon. Name change is on me, didn't slow down to do it properly and grabbed the name above the table.

Cephala is sad that her name was changed to Valindra and that her "near perfect" power rating was only a 4. With a 25 attack routine on the charge or at range and a poison effect regardless of save she was hoping for a 4.5. Also sorry if this dispute was late.

[Venger]

Edited Cephala's name onto the table accordingly.

[WhamBamSam]

Thanks. I'm gonna just keep spruiking Dragon Samurai then

It might just be in the "so bad it's bad" category, but I can think of one op tactic to focus around...

I have a rough, very inelegant idea for Dragon Samurai.

[The Viscount]

While you were getting useful class features, Dragon Samurai studied the blade.

[H_H_F_F]

So, a second judging is surely on its way? That's fantastic!

Also, Dragon Samurai seems sort of... Bland? Boring? Maybe I'm just not creative enough.

[daremetoidareyo]

So, a second judging is surely on its way? That's fantastic!

Also, Dragon Samurai seems sort of... Bland? Boring? Maybe I'm just not creative enough.

Dragon samurai is trash.

[H_H_F_F]

Dragon samurai is trash.

Well, clearly. But being boring is worse than being trash, in the context of this endeavour.

[The Viscount]

Dragon samurai is trash.

It is, which is why we must face it one day.

[Nihilarian]

I was expecting more wildshape ranger since that seems kinda like the "natural" entry into this class. But then i guess natural can be a downside in this kinda competition.

The only even vaguely interesting ability Dragon Samurai gets is a stackable breath weapon you can use exactly once a day. What else are you going to build around? +4 bonus to charisma checks when talking to dragons? Blind-fight?

[The Viscount]

I was expecting more wildshape ranger since that seems kinda like the "natural" entry into this class. But then i guess natural can be a downside in this kinda competition.

The only even vaguely interesting ability Dragon Samurai gets is a stackable breath weapon you can use exactly once a day. What else are you going to build around? +4 bonus to charisma checks when talking to dragons? Blind-fight?

Vizzini strikes again.

Yes, Dragon Samurai gives you infuriatingly little, which is why we talk about it for IC. We've done some extremely challenging rounds in the past, and chefs have always risen to the occasion.

[Nihilarian]

Am I allowed to offer a critique on a build?

[daremetoidareyo]

Am I allowed to offer a critique on a build?

It should probably wait until the reveal of the entrants. There's another judge judging, and possibly a round of disputes, and we don't need to muddy the waters of objectivity.

[Hiro Quester]

Sam has taken the words from my mouth. Eternal Blade is good, and quite hard to enter with its BA requirement.

We could always relax the Use of SI portion of the grading, to reflect interesting and skillful use of SI, rather than simply using all of SI.

(When cooking a dish with squid, a skilled and original chef might find a use for the ink. But many excellent dishes would be forgone if one required that the ink be used. )

There seem to be some cool things one could do with classes like Eternal Blade, if one accepted that one might not have to use all 10 levels. Even when its capstone is such an awesomely useful ability.