Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CV

[Piggy Knowles]

I'd be in favor of relaxing the speculation rules in general. We've gotten so strict about it that nobody can ever say anything interesting about the SI at all. Honestly, the contest is way more fun for me when we can chat about things, talk about the builds after the reveal, etc.

[H_H_F_F]

I don't know if there's an elegant solution to it all.

Well, besides Piggy's suggestion (on which I feel unqualified to have an opinion) I'd say waiting 48 hours between medals and the next contest could give some time for discussions and congratulations, as well as some extra suspense for the new ingredient. More than 2 days is probably overkill and will slow down the process considerably, but two days seem like a great amount of time to unwind, discuss, internalise, and so on. Then, we can all move on with a clear head to the next contest.

[The Viscount]

I'd be in favor of relaxing the speculation rules in general. We've gotten so strict about it that nobody can ever say anything interesting about the SI at all. Honestly, the contest is way more fun for me when we can chat about things, talk about the builds after the reveal, etc.

It was always more self or peer-enforced than chair-enforced. I'm fine with discussion, I'd just like to avoid people saying "man x is the perfect entry class for y ingredient."

[PrismCat21]

More than 2 days is probably overkill and will slow down the process considerably, but two days seem like a great amount of time to unwind, discuss, internalise, and so on.

There are always plenty of people that are eagerly awaiting for the next round to begin. Including ones that actively participated in that round. It wouldn't just be two days, it's two days 'in addition to...', that aren't needed/wanted by most.
If people want to discuss builds after the reveal, I know of nothing that would prevent them from doing so.
Forcing everybody else to wait while others discuss the builds (outside of the competition) would be uncool.

[H_H_F_F]

There are always plenty of people that are eagerly awaiting for the next round to begin. Including ones that actively participated in that round. It wouldn't just be two days, it's two days 'in addition to...', that aren't needed/wanted by most.
If people want to discuss builds after the reveal, I know of nothing that would prevent them from doing so.
Forcing everybody else to wait while others discuss the builds (outside of the competition) would be uncool.

I can see where you're coming from. I wouldn't have thought two days would make a difference (after all, we've been at this one for a month and a half,) but it's true that people shouldn't be made to wait so other people can discuss things.

I just honestly thought that this would be to the benefit of everyone. Getting to wrap things up, congratulate victors, explaining their builds, whatever. Every competition I can think of in the world of sports follows this rule - people get to be the champions, discuss the contest, before moving on to the next season. Adding around 3-5% to the waiting time seemed worth it.

However, if it just makes people frustrated as they wait silently while others discuss, it's probably not worth it.

[PrismCat21]

However, if it just makes people frustrated as they wait silently while others discuss, it's probably not worth it.

Especially since the people that want to discuss it can do so freely when the round is over. Both ends get what they want.

[H_H_F_F]

Especially since the people that want to discuss it can do so freely when the round is over. Both ends get what they want.

As i said, I'm not going to push for it if it's so controversial. However, I feel like you're missing my point. Yes, people can talk now - which is why I said it's not worth it - but it does take away from it. The attention, focus and energy are shifted.

Just imagine 2 soccer games back to back. Sure, you can talk about game 1, but your head isn't there anymore. Likewise, you get a break from a TV series after every season finale. It's not just about schedule nowadays, it's also about understanding that people benefit from having no new content to distract them from the piece they just finished experiencing.

I know I would certainly benefit from what I've offered. I agree it's not worth it if you will be majorly annoyed by it, but that doesn't mean it's a worthless suggestion addressing a non-problem, as your posts seemed to imply.

[Hiro Quester]

Serious question, especially for those who have judged:

Would it taint or bias judging unfairly, or would it help judging, if we lifted the norm to not discuss builds while judging is happening?

It seems we would all benefit from having the playground discuss (preserving anonymity of chefs) the merits and questionable aspects of builds. Part of what makes the competition fun and interesting, perhaps, is thinking and talking about the surprises, the skillful use of an unanticipated option, the creativity of a write-up, and so on.

And it might help crowdsource some of the heavy lifting parts of judging, by having the playground discuss whether a particular trick is cool and insightful or serious abuse of the rules. [Edit: redacted examples].

Would such discussions interfere with judging, or help judges by explore the arguments for or against a particular build’s questionable tricks or insightful surprises?

[Venger]

Yes, it would. Please refrain from discussing builds until the reveal. It would be nice if you could edit your comments about those dishes out of your post as well in case ZamielVanWeber hasn't gotten to those yet.

[Thurbane]

I once had an anonymous tipster PM the chair about a perceived error in one of my entries (which ended up not being an error at all, as it happens), in what I thought was one of the worst cases of poor sportsmanship I've witnessed.

If you feel so strongly on an error in a build, step up and judge! Or if you were a competitor, just keep your mouth shut, and don't be a brat.

I strongly discourage spectator commentary on entries until final judging and reveal has been completed - anything else can skew scores and cause issues.

As for speculation on potential builds before entries have been revealed: it can be very disappointing to have what you thought was an original and clever idea for a build you were thinking of submitting, only to see someone postulating the same thing before (or after) you've entered.

All in all, I'll take a bit of inactive silence over ruining entries or the comp any day of the week.

[Empyreal Dragon]

I forgot to post this when I wrote it the first time.


In spite of cephalas despute, while she is exceptionally powerful, I have no basis for a power score of 4.5 for this particular ingredient, I will be sticking to me 4 in that score, as in spite of the use of poison and a massive attack routine, I dont think it deserves a 5, and I can't think of a good middle ground between the full 5 and a rating of 4.

For the time being I have no intention of any score between 4 and 5.

[Piggy Knowles]

Re: discussion of builds during the judging phase, I tend to feel a little more lax about it than Thurbane and Venger, but overall I agree with them. Basically I'm OK with people talking about builds, especially if they're discussing the cool things they liked about what they saw, but a lot of times I feel like more negative comments seem like they're aimed at trying to influence judges. My general MO when I discuss builds is to just keep it positive, and not bring up anything that might be potentially influencing a judge's scoring or try to tear anyone else's build down. Personally I don't think there's too much harm in that, but like I said others might not be as casual about it as I am.

[DeAnno]

Similar to there being nothing stopping discussion of this ingredient once the next is going, there's nothing stopping anyone from poking holes in builds after the judging is fully completed. Once it stops being about stealing the victory and starts being about seeking the truth I think it's actually productive, if only to maximize relevant information circulating to those using the thread as reference in the future.

After all it would be a shame if for example, a judge made a decision that didn't cleave with the majority view, and then in the future another judge made the same decision after using the previous one as reference and not seeing any counterargument. When seeking information about edge cases in 3.5 I often search through old GITP threads to get a feel of the settled "case law" myself.

[daremetoidareyo]

Any word Zamiel?

[The Viscount]

I've not heard anything, and I can tell people are getting antsy for the reveal, so in the interest of keeping things moving, here's the reveal!

Name of Dish	Stub	Primeval Form	Score Judge 1	Chef
Lu'ung, The Dragon's Fury	Neutral Evil Human Barbarian 1/Druid 6/Fighter 1/Swordsage 3/Primeval 9	megaraptor	14.5	RaiKirah
Derlek, Unwitting Minion of the Great Dreamer	NE human undying way monk 2/druidic avenger 5/warshaper 2/nature's warrior 3/primeval 8	giant octopus	13	Hiro Quester
The Brothers Ghurg and Gharg The Twin-Pac Primeval (Ghurg)	CE Frostblood Orc Ranger 3/Barbarian 5/Warblade 2/Primeval 10	cave ankylosaurus	16	WhamBamSam
The Brothers Ghurg and Gharg The Twin-Pac Primeval (Gharg)	CE Frostblood Orc Ranger 3/Swashbuckler 2/Thrall of Jubilex 5/Primeval 10	dire lion	18.5	WhamBamSam
Primo Valendino Starchild	LG > CE strongheart halfling passive way halfling monk 2/wilderness rogue 3/hellbreaker 8/ primeval 2/stoneblessed 3/fighter 1/wilderness rogue 4	swindlespitter	12.5	daremetoidareyou
Cephala	CE Lolth-Touched Anthropomorphic Giant Octopus Monstrous Humanoid 2 / Rogue 1 / Fighter 1 / Ranger 4 / Barbarian 1 / Primeval 10	giant octopus	18	Aplaytpus
Free	CN gully dwarf ranger 5/momf2/birdlord 3/ primeval 10	megaraptor	15	H_H_F_F
Jakkan Ha'gar	CN ghostwise halfling Minion 1/Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Barbarian 1/ Warshaper 3/ primeval 10	horrid magebred dire badger	11	jdizzlean
Liz	NE neraph ranger 5/mortal hunter 3/primeval 10/mortal hunter 5	cave ankylosaurus	17	Venger
Frough-Gee	NG female wild dwarf dragonborn of Bahamut (Heart). Ranger 1/ Barbarian 4/ fist of the forest 1/ deepwarden 2/ warblade 2/ primeval 10	dire toad	16.5	H_H_F_F
Ocavo, the Weeping Warrior	CN Desert Orc Warblade 6/Binder 4/Giant Octopus Primeval 10	giant octopus	17	DeAnno
Son of Keyrock	CE Neanderthal Totemist 7/Soulborn 3/Primeval 10	dire vulture	17.5	The Viscount

Of course as chair I'm ineligible for places. I hope people don't mind my having a little fun with an homage build. Congratulations to all, and especially our medal winners and honorable mention! I'm very pleased with the turnout this round. Next round up shortly.

[Thurbane]

Congrats all around!

If anyone wants to volunteer as a judge, Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang would be very grateful!

[Venger]

Congrats to all the other medalists. This was a really fun round.

[daremetoidareyo]

Woohoo! honorable mention!

I didn't even look up the stats for my primeval shape. I was just like, "whats a small dinosaur?" and my memory kicked out swindlespitter, and I was like "Gee, thanks, memory! I'm gonna get to writing this here legal briefing of an entry. I hope that's a good choice."

[WhamBamSam]

Good round all. Gharg was my favorite IC build that I've done for a while, so I'm glad he was able to pull it out.


I mentioned having a Soul Eater Giant Octopus idea earlier, but didn't post it because it uses a variation on Ghurg and Gharg's Rapidstrike trick. The stub is Wild Shape Ranger 5/Thrall of Orcus or Demogorgon 3/Primeval 10/Soul Eater 1/Thrall of Orcus or Demogorgon +1. Urban Companion nabs Alertness to pay the Soul Eater tax, and as with the brothers, entering Primeval at the earliest possible point opens the 18th level feat to Rapidstrike, with the delayed 4th Thrall level giving an unspecified bonus feat for Improved Rapidstrike.

[H_H_F_F]

Well, this was a very fun round. I was astounded especially by the audacity of Valentino Starchild and by the creativity of Ocavo, but there were good dishes all around. I really liked this ingredient. I'd like to share my process with my builds, and I'd love to hear how you guys came around to yours:

Free was my original dish for this event. I thought it'd be really cool to modify an existing form, and being able to use the same resource for several purposes always appeals to me. I also wanted full BAB. This is how Animal lord came into the fray - I'm sure there are far better ways to do this, but my system mastery is still pretty limited. I still have to look up a lot of the things you guys are doing.

So, my original chassis was just "Ranger 5/ Primeval 10 with a large, powerful form/ Animal lord 3", and I was off trying to figure out the right race. I was looking for something to really tank Cha and Int, and the second I looked at the gully dwarf stats they really appealed to me. -4 to Int AND Cha? Bonus to the survival skill? It seemed like it would be perfect for the idea of the Primeval as the ultimate feral survivalist, and it seemed efficient in a way I enjoyed - only lose the relevant abilities once. I also thought it was pretty original - nobody ever does a serious take on a Gully Dwarf, and I don't believe I've ever seen one on the Iron Chef before. I was somewhat disappointed to not get it mentioned in my originality score, but such is life.

Then, it dawned on me - I was a small creature, and was limited only to really ****ty forms. I needed to get bigger. I spent some time desperately trying to find a legal template that was cheap enough to make me medium, to no avail. I was already too in love with the idea of Free and the essence of his story to let go of the Gully Dwarf idea. I didn't know what to do. Then came the chair's ruling that anything that applied to wildshape would also apply to Primeval form, and I had my solution. I had exactly 2 levels to spend, and I had to spend them on MOMF. No other choice.

I settled on my modification being wings for a dinosaur (I also enjoyed the thought of a birdlord's Primeval form being a primeval bird). I debated with myself for a while about Urban companion - It would be stronger, and would save me a feat - but I just couldn't. It didn't fit. I wrote the final version of the fluff, which was comforting with my father going through a hard time (all better now), and I was done.

I tried to think of a new idea for a few days, but I couldn't. I felt like I couldn't think of anything better to do with this class than getting a massive Str score and **** **** up. Then, very shortly before the deadline, it came to me:

"Con stacking, and poison. Who the hell uses poison? like, ever? So, fist of the forest, and deepwarden. Which means another dwarf. cool. Bear barbarian 4 is perfect for this build, feats-wise, and also rarely used as far as I can tell. 4 levels of that will get me going. Unfortunately, I need the Ranger level for the skills, otherwise I'll never make it without really pumping my int. So, I need a dwarf with either Barb or Ranger as a favored class. Jungle Dwarf? Oh, come on, Low light vision is redundant again? No. Not this time. Wild Dwarf? Oof, they're small. Okay, We'll get back to that. In the meantime, what else can I do with Con? Dragonborn of Bahamut, obviously. What else? Is there any other way to cause damage with Con? I bet there are maneuvers for this. Let's check. Insightful strike. Okay. Is concentration on the primeval list? YES! let's go! Ranger, Barbarian, Fist of the forest, Deepwarden, Primeval, 2 levels of Warblade. If I do it just right, I can get exactly the initiator level I need for each of the levels. I'm golden, baby!

"Okay, back to the race issue. I'm NOT going jungle dwarf. I don't feel like it. Besides, I already found a way to get over the small issue. Wouldn't it be cool to find a medium form, with poison, that doesn't suck? I'll bet no one else is going that route.

"Wait.

"How about a medium form, with poison, that does suck? Or at least, is deeply, deeply unimpressive?

"Time to book dive.

...

"Oh, HELL yeah.

"Okay, what else does it get? Grapple? I can do grapple, I have maneuvers to spend. Actually, I need grapple, it gives me something to do with my iteratives, if needed. Okay, cool, get a constrict attack. I need a stance, anyway. Besides, mountain hammer is cool, so no worries about the requirements. Now just, to get some weird ranger vibes with my one level, and I'm done. Submitted, very shortly before the deadline. Yes!

"I bet I made like, a billion errors. Oh god."

It's been a blast! See you on the next round!

[H_H_F_F]

Congrats all around!

If anyone wants to volunteer as a judge, Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang would be very grateful!

You got it.

[DeAnno]

Imagine the egg on my face when after all the fuss I made about being able to breathe, someone else just looked up the holding breath rules and discovered it was ConScore*2 rounds. I admit I was aware there was some kind of rule, but I didn't for a second believe it could possibly be so generous. I think there's still some value in breathing (especially in the DM-might-get-up-to-hijinx sense), but the trick really falls flat with such an easy workaround available.

It's an extra shame because the only things that really can make use of an aquatic form for hour+ type durations and NEED the breathing can already get it from spells, so I'm not sure what real use this Octopus-enabling Binder dip has for anyone. Maybe a race that's naturally aquatic? Though why you're playing one in a land campaign is a bit of a stumper to begin with.

[Hiro Quester]

I was thinking the same about not bothering to worry much about breathing for Derlek.

When I figured that the Primeval form would last 8 minutes max, and his CON score would enable him to hold his breath that long, it seemed too Easy. DM would rule that you could hold your breath that long if you were quiet and calm, but not in vigorous combat or whatever.

When I found that an octopus can breathe through its skin, when wet, it seemed enough of a fun real-world detail that I decided not to worry further about breathing. If I was playing this guy, that's a detail I would use to try to persuade the DM to just not worry about the breathing thing, so neither of us have to bother about it.

I did worry about this seeming just a little inelegant, though.

The druid spell Air Breathing fixes this. But it's a third level spell, and he does not get many of them. Maybe he's get a few scrolls for weird situations. That's plan C.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

One problem I noticed with Lu'ung has been bugging me. The build uses Berserker Strength, but that doesn't activate until your current HP = Barbarian level * 5, rather than until you've lost those 5 HP. Normally I wouldn't bother to post, but it's really been bugging me for some reason.

Anyway, great builds everyone! As someone not competing, I really appreciate the effort put into the backstories and fluff; this round in particular made for excellent reads all around!

[RaiKirah]

One problem I noticed with Lu'ung has been bugging me. The build uses Berserker Strength, but that doesn't activate until your current HP = Barbarian level * 5, rather than until you've lost those 5 HP. Normally I wouldn't bother to post, but it's really been bugging me for some reason.

Anyway, great builds everyone! As someone not competing, I really appreciate the effort put into the backstories and fluff; this round in particular made for excellent reads all around!

Holy balls, you're right! I checked that at least three times, because I also thought that was the case when I went to look at it the first time, but apparently I cannot read. That's embarrassing.

[H_H_F_F]

One problem I noticed with Lu'ung has been bugging me. The build uses Berserker Strength, but that doesn't activate until your current HP = Barbarian level * 5, rather than until you've lost those 5 HP. Normally I wouldn't bother to post, but it's really been bugging me for some reason.

Anyway, great builds everyone! As someone not competing, I really appreciate the effort put into the backstories and fluff; this round in particular made for excellent reads all around!

Bothered me as well, but I didn't point it out because part of me is still convinced I made a 100 mistakes with Froggy. Amusingly, the only mistake I caught after the reveal in my builds was actually in Free's table - I forgot the point of knowledge required for Arcane hunter.

[DeAnno]

I did a silly in my description where 10' size + 20' reach made a 30x30' zone (instead of 50x50'.) Wasn't terribly important but still made me feel bad.

[Nihilarian]

One problem I noticed with Lu'ung has been bugging me. The build uses Berserker Strength, but that doesn't activate until your current HP = Barbarian level * 5, rather than until you've lost those 5 HP. Normally I wouldn't bother to post, but it's really been bugging me for some reason.

Anyway, great builds everyone! As someone not competing, I really appreciate the effort put into the backstories and fluff; this round in particular made for excellent reads all around!

this is the critique I had

It's not a huge deal because you have other sources of rage and it technically fits your vision of Lu'ung being more dangerous as the fight goes on, but 4hp seemed a bit late to matter

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Holy balls, you're right! I checked that at least three times, because I also thought that was the case when I went to look at it the first time, but apparently I cannot read. That's embarrassing.

I know that feeling! I can't tell you how many times I double-checked telekinesis to make sure it didn't have a CL cap on the number of items you can launch... but it was at least 10 times. Then I submitted my build (this was for Junkyard Wars, not this comp.), went to close the tab, and sure enough there was a cap of 15 items. *headdesk*

[The Viscount]

Sometimes I still kick myself over an entry from 60 rounds ago where on final revisions I shuffled points out of Dex, forgetting that I needed to qualify for Dodge to enter the SI.