Do Martial Arts being replaced by guns martial arts movies actually exist ?

[comicshorse]

A bit ago I read in a movie magazine that there was a sub genre of Martial Arts movies where the theme was the heroes realising the Martial Art they had studied was being made irrelevant by the introduction of guns. However I was thinking about it recently and the only films I could think of that do that are 'The Guillotines' and a bit 'Once Upon a Time in China'
Am I missing loads or did the writer just not know what he was talking about ?

P.S
Arguably 'The Last Samurai' and 'Ran' could count but I wouldn't, personally, class them as martial arts movies

[Vinyadan]

A bit ago I read in a movie magazine that there was a sub genre of Martial Arts movies where the theme was the heroes realising the Martial Art they had studied was being made irrelevant by the introduction of guns. However I was thinking about it recently and the only films I could think of that do that are 'The Guillotines' and a bit 'Once Upon a Time in China'
Am I missing loads or did the writer just not know what he was talking about ?

P.S
Arguably 'The Last Samurai' and 'Ran' could count but I wouldn't, personally, class them as martial arts movies

Kung Fu Panda 2?

[Fyraltari]

That one scene in Indiana Jones?

[comicshorse]

Kung Fu Panda 2?

But he defeats the cannons with his Kung Fu so I'd say no

Fyraltari

That one scene in Indiana Jones?

Oooh good one Though to be picky not one of the major themes of the film

[Fyraltari]

Oooh good one Though to be picky not one of the major themes of the film

Well, it was an improv. Also, Fyraltari.

[tyckspoon]

I'm sure there's some movies along those lines, but I can't think of.. any, really, not that I would classify as a 'martial arts movie' (as opposed to having one character that happens to practice martial arts and there's a scene where something happens that points out how pointless that is in a gunfight... and there probably is also a scene or two where that character gets to be awesome with his martial arts too to balance it out.) Sounds like the kind of thing you'd get if martial arts deconstructions where a trend, which they aren't in any cinema I'm personally aware of.

Usually, the point of a martial arts movie is to have the martial artists be awesome, which means using martial arts is relevant and .. or it's a martial arts-as-a-road-to-self-actualization thing, in which case whether or not it's a relevant combat skill isn't really part of the point, and if you see somebody get humbled by guns they will probably overcome them in the finale (see: Kung Fu Panda 2) when they realize the Power Was In Them All Along.

[Kitten Champion]

There are of course cinematic blending of gun-fighting and martial arts - John Woo's oeuvre for instance - but none those are about a traditional martial artist dropping their practice to just use guns. Even when martial artists characters do use guns it's more in addition to than as a direct replacement.

As tyckspoon said, the choreographed hand-to-hand combat is usually why you're there. If there is a gun, it's often used as an obstacle in the path of an otherwise indomitable protagonist -- like in Ip Man. That, or it's one of those one-off things in Wuxia where its one character's gimmick to wield a firearm of some kind, this being a genre that loves its unusual weapon gimmicks.

The only one I can think of which even remotely fits the idea - but doesn't really - is the anime Gintama, which also technically has movies but those aren't really about this anyways... so, it's a stretch. The character premised around Ryoma Sakamoto has his arm injured during a war and shifts his mentality entirely to using handguns as his means of defending himself. Though it's not like objectively speaking guns are really superior, as this is Gintama where swords and hand-to-hand martial arts skills can beat anything and everything, the character just can't hold a sword properly anymore so he had to adapt.

[Vinyadan]

The only one I can think of which even remotely fits the idea - but doesn't really - is the anime Gintama, which also technically has movies but those aren't really about this anyways... so, it's a stretch. The character premised around Ryoma Sakamoto has his arm injured during a war and shifts his mentality entirely to using handguns as his means of defending himself. Though it's not like objectively speaking guns are really superior, as this is Gintama where swords and hand-to-hand martial arts skills can beat anything and everything, the character just can't hold a sword properly anymore so he had to adapt.

Rurouni Kenshin has a story in which a Gatling machine gun takes out a whole elite team of swordsmen... at close range, inside a house. (I actually often felt that Gintama was comedy Kenshin with aliens, some characters are really similar). They get themselves killed so that one may take out the gunner (who owns the house). However, the focus stays on swords, even after this.

[Kitten Champion]

Rurouni Kenshin has a story in which a Gatling machine gun takes out a whole elite team of swordsmen... at close range, inside a house. (I actually often felt that Gintama was comedy Kenshin with aliens, some characters are really similar). They get themselves killed so that one may take out the gunner (who owns the house). However, the focus stays on swords, even after this.

Gintama is an alternate universe Meiji era Japan while Kenshin was supposed to be a real-world kind of shadow history. Gintama's uses people and events from that same history but the people have wildly different personas and the events they focus on have been radically altered by literal space aliens who serve as the substitute for real world Western colonial powers. While Kenshin is to 1860's-1910's Japan what 300 was to the battle of Thermopylae, with Kenshin being an amalgamation of several prominent assassins in that period who didn't become badass pacifists, sadly.

For Gintama -
Gintoki himself is based on Kintaro, who is a figure from a far older folk history and may of also been based on a real person.
Katsura Kotarou is based off of Kido Takayoshi, a noble renowned in the political-side of the anti-shogunate rebellion.
Takasugi Shinsuke is Takasugi Shinsaku, a radical nationalist who led a militia aimed at defending Japan from colonization.
Sakamoto Tatsuma is Sakamoto Ryoma, a prominent anti-shogunate figure who also helped pave the way to Japanese modernization with his merchant fleet.
Gintoki and friend's mentor/teacher Yoshida Shouyou was based on Yoshida Shoin, a scholar who taught in a prominent military school and got caught up in the joi rebellion.
The Shinsengumi and Mimawarigumi both existed and had leaders with roughly-but-not-exactly the same names.
..and there's a lot more.

Only the Shinsengumi and the Oniwaban figure prominently in both Kenshin and Gintama - as far as I can remember - and they were technically dead organization in Kenshin's timeline. In fact, I believe most of Gintama's cast would be dead in Kenshin's current year.

[Vinyadan]

Well, Katsura is very much like Kenshin's Tsukioka Tsunan, down to being a revolutionary, having longs, straight, black hair, and the fascination with bombs. If we look at the main trio, Gin is a warrior from the old war with a mysterious past, but clearly exceptional skill and and a demeanour that belies them (like a sleepy-eyed version of "happy eyes" Kenshin). Kagura looks like a mix between Yahiko and Zanza: she is immensely strong (like Zanza), and she is a child like Yahiko, and both show up the first time as young delinquents working for the mob. Shinpachi wants to save his dead father's dojo from debt (like Kaoru).

The similarities are limited, of course, since Gintoki is admittedly much more settled than Kenshin, but I have no doubt that there was some inspiration from or deliberate reference to Rouroni Kenshin, as an element of parody. After all, RouroKen had had a huge success, and handled the time period with both some depth and levity.

[t209]

Well, I’ve been thinking like this but with more “the twilight of Asian traditional society in 19th century”.
Like increasing modernization, and western presence marking the end of social order and traditions in Korea, Japan, and China. One example I can think of is Mr. Sunshine, which set in the final days of Joseon just before the eventual annexation by the Japanese.
Kenshin did show that most Samurais or sword fighters are either broke or moved on with their lives.
Once Upon A Time in China showed Qing authority being slowly supplanted by foreign delegates but nuances being for good (modern technology and medicine) or ill (colonial hegemony and fall of martial arts).

[Wraith]

There is a pseudo example of this occurring in Equilibrium - in the dystopic future, the 'secret police' realise that everyone has machine guns, so teaching their operatives martial arts is just going to get them shot. In order to retaliate, they equip their operatives with guns and teach them a specific form of martial arts that instructs them how to use guns really well and makes them harder to hit (Hollywood science, just go with it) known as Gun-Kata.

It's a really interesting take on the idea that "guns beat martial arts" - they took that problem and showed the obvious solution, which is that the most powerful person in the room knows guns AND martial arts.

A more clear example of this happens in one of the Highlander movies - Endgame, I think? The movies are about a group of immortal swordsmen who appear throughout history and have to duel each other to the death - the only way to kill a rival is decapitate them, so they're all 1,000 years old and using swords and fencing techniques suitable to the era in which they were born.

Except one guy who was apparently born in the 1970s A.D. and discovered that he was immortal only recently - he just pulls out a gun and shoots the immortal protagonist, knocking him off his feet and stunning him long enough to be caught and tied up by other evil minions. Even the other immortals in the room give him a look of, "what the hell, dude?" to which he answers something along the lines of, "as if I was going to try and sword-fight that 1,000 year old guy, he'd kick my ass in a heartbeat!"

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Nope, these movies do not exist. In particular the third live action Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie was never made. It is not about a bad guy bringing guns into feudal Japan where both innocent villagers and mutant ninja reptiles will get shot with them, and it certainly does not feature sub-Muppet grade puppetry and animatronics effects.

[snowblizz]

Nope, these movies do not exist. In particular the third live action Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie was never made. It is not about a bad guy bringing guns into feudal Japan where both innocent villagers and mutant ninja reptiles will get shot with them, and it certainly does not feature sub-Muppet grade puppetry and animatronics effects.

That's a very specific denial.

[Lurkmoar]

Fist of Fury ends on that kind of note. Bruce Lee's character Chen wipes out the bad guys, but he's wracked up such a kill count the authorities can't sweep it under the rug. The last image are the police forming a firing squad line, Chen doing a flying kick and rifle shoots. Given Lee's opinion about guns, Chen wouldn't have survived.

[Rynjin]

Rurouni Kenshin has a story in which a Gatling machine gun takes out a whole elite team of swordsmen... at close range, inside a house. (I actually often felt that Gintama was comedy Kenshin with aliens, some characters are really similar). They get themselves killed so that one may take out the gunner (who owns the house). However, the focus stays on swords, even after this.

Isn't that the same episode where Kenshin casually dodges every bullet and then slices the gatling gun in half with a single swipe?

[Vinyadan]

Isn't that the same episode where Kenshin casually dodges every bullet and then slices the gatling gun in half with a single swipe?

I never watched the anime; in the manga, Kenshin manages to get him because the gun ran out of bullets by shooting everyone else after having toyed with them (chapter 28).

[comicshorse]

T
A more clear example of this happens in one of the Highlander movies - Endgame, I think? The movies are about a group of immortal swordsmen who appear throughout history and have to duel each other to the death - the only way to kill a rival is decapitate them, so they're all 1,000 years old and using swords and fencing techniques suitable to the era in which they were born.

Except one guy who was apparently born in the 1970s A.D. and discovered that he was immortal only recently - he just pulls out a gun and shoots the immortal protagonist, knocking him off his feet and stunning him long enough to be caught and tied up by other evil minions. Even the other immortals in the room give him a look of, "what the hell, dude?" to which he answers something along the lines of, "as if I was going to try and sword-fight that 1,000 year old guy, he'd kick my ass in a heartbeat!"

This was quite common in the TV series with lots of 'evil' Immortals seeking ways out of fighting the 'good guys' Immortals fairly. Ranging from ganging up on the hero, hitting them with a car, hiring ex-foreign Legion mercs with assault weapons and using poison gas !

Lurkmoar
Fist of Fury ends on that kind of note. Bruce Lee's character Chen wipes out the bad guys, but he's wracked up such a kill count the authorities can't sweep it under the rug. The last image are the police forming a firing squad line, Chen doing a flying kick and rifle shoots. Given Lee's opinion about guns, Chen wouldn't have survived.

Ah. I've seen the Jet Li remake 'Fist of Legend' which has a very different ending to that. I'll add this to my 'must watch list'. Thanks

[Tvtyrant]

Martial arts aren't particularly realistic for fighting to begin with, almost everything makes a better weapon than human hands and feet. So I imagine most movies that have people not using knives, sticks or pipes aren't going to bring guns in.

[BisectedBrioche]

It's worth noting that the introduction of guns making swords obsolete is often compared to the way cowboy movies show old West lawmen and outlaws being made obsolete by the end of the old West.

Since Samurai and Cowboy movies are similar enough you can remake one as the other.

[Fyraltari]

Martial arts aren't particularly realistic for fighting to begin with, almost everything makes a better weapon than human hands and feet. So I imagine most movies that have people not using knives, sticks or pipes aren't going to bring guns in.

I mean, martial arts cover every combat technique (although people often exclude ranged weapons such as bows and firearms) not just hand-to-hand ones. Kendo is a martial art centered around the killing of people with a sharp stick, and so is European fencing.

[Tvtyrant]

I mean, martial arts cover every combat technique (although people often exclude ranged weapons such as bows and firearms) not just hand-to-hand ones. Kendo is a martial art centered around the killing of people with a sharp stick, and so is European fencing.

Sure, in a technical sense. But usually martial arts movies are referring to hand to hand combat, the term is meaningless if we include all forms of combat and war movie. For a martial arts movie to mean anything war movies are excluded, so Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon counts but not 13th Warrior. Martial Arts are also not the same as actual combat, Kendo and Fencing are sports pantomiming combat not actual combat fighting. One of the most effective tactics in real combat is tackling the other person and stabbing them with a knife, no martial arts are built around that. Or shield wall fighting, or how best to fight two vs one. The arts part is that it is innately unrealistic.

In that martial arts movies are stylized, as the genre defining feature, and usually hand to hand guns aren't going to play a major role unless it is Martial Arts Guns like John Wick.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

That's a very specific denial.

Just doing my part to quell the rumors and stop people from looking for this non-existent movie.

The first two are pretty awesome, but not a lot of guns in those.

Nor do they really count as martial arts movies as in Hong Kong cinema and such of course.

Sure, in a technical sense. But usually martial arts movies are referring to hand to hand combat, the term is meaningless if we include all forms of combat and war movie. For a martial arts movie to mean anything war movies are excluded, so Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon counts but not 13th Warrior. Martial Arts are also not the same as actual combat, Kendo and Fencing are sports pantomiming combat not actual combat fighting. One of the most effective tactics in real combat is tackling the other person and stabbing them with a knife, no martial arts are built around that. Or shield wall fighting, or how best to fight two vs one. The arts part is that it is innately unrealistic.

In that martial arts movies are stylized, as the genre defining feature, and usually hand to hand guns aren't going to play a major role unless it is Martial Arts Guns like John Wick.

When I think of martial arts movies some of the first things that come to mind are nun-chucks, and those little wooden benches that show up whenever they want to use an improvised weapon but don't want to actually have to come up with their own moves for it. Plus tonfa's, bo's, jo's, sai (I'm just pluralizing them as whatever seems reasonable to me in the moment), kama, butterfly swords, hook swords, canes and name it. It definitely doesn't feel like a genre about unarmed combat only.

[Traab]

Rumble in the Bronx had a couple points where guns came into play and basically stopped jackie from fighting iirc. But even then, in the end it was all about martial arts (and riding a hovercraft over the bad guy on a golf course)

[Vinyadan]

Sure, in a technical sense. But usually martial arts movies are referring to hand to hand combat, the term is meaningless if we include all forms of combat and war movie. For a martial arts movie to mean anything war movies are excluded, so Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon counts but not 13th Warrior. Martial Arts are also not the same as actual combat, Kendo and Fencing are sports pantomiming combat not actual combat fighting. One of the most effective tactics in real combat is tackling the other person and stabbing them with a knife, no martial arts are built around that. Or shield wall fighting, or how best to fight two vs one. The arts part is that it is innately unrealistic.

In that martial arts movies are stylized, as the genre defining feature, and usually hand to hand guns aren't going to play a major role unless it is Martial Arts Guns like John Wick.

I can't say about fencing and kendo, but this phrasing is probably not correct (it depends on how you read it). Martial arts like karate are martial arts, they are combat systems meant to be used in times of war and also in any other time you need to fight. Fighting tournaments aren't a representation of martial arts as they are taught. Kyokushin, for example, has full-contact, no-gloves tournaments where you cannot strike the head. But that isn't an element of kyokushin as a karate style, it's just a rule in a sport where the fighters have trained in kyokushin. Kyokushin (and shotokan and goju-ryu and so on) are, per se, like krav maga or jiu-jitsu, which aren't sports.

On the other hand, it's true that hitting the dojo will never mean actual combat, unless you are training with the insane. It's a lot of instruction (and physical conditioning), but zero experience. From this point of view, living in a bad neighbourhood is probably better than hitting the dojo everyday.

On the other hand, WW2 Japan actually had some of the best masters teaching special forces, under realistic conditions, wearing boots, and the military was pleased with the results; but this was after testing and discarding a number of styles that didn't work, sometimes simply because they required too much time to learn. People hurt each other during such training, which was still the case years after the war (after the American ban was lifted). Karatekas were aware of the fact that karate wouldn't change the course of the war,* and, in a way, it was the opposite: the war influenced how karate was taught.

*except I think karate is traditionally taught in a way that fundamentally teaches you to obey promptly and not question orders.

[Celestia]

There's a semi-obscure anime called Grenadier where one of the central themes is that guns make swords obsolete. The other themes are that friendship will save the world and that big boobs jiggle.

[Brother Oni]

One of the most effective tactics in real combat is tackling the other person and stabbing them with a knife, no martial arts are built around that. Or shield wall fighting, or how best to fight two vs one. The arts part is that it is innately unrealistic.

With regard to the first point, assuming your opponent is armed as well, all it means that he can stab you as well, so you both end up dying. If you're armed and he's not, you're giving up a range advantage by tackling.
Many fighting styles also emphasise that you stay mobile (ie on your feet) - tackling someone and bringing them down on the street isn't recommended as it gives your opponent's friends an easy target to stamp on your head. This also helps in situations where you're outnumbered, you're always moving so that they block each other and you're facing them one at a time.

Shield wall fighting is different as that's primarily a feature of western warfare and not many texts and martial traditions have survived from when it was common.

I can't say about fencing and kendo, but this phrasing is probably not correct (it depends on how you read it). Martial arts like karate are martial arts, they are combat systems meant to be used in times of war and also in any other time you need to fight. Fighting tournaments aren't a representation of martial arts as they are taught. Kyokushin, for example, has full-contact, no-gloves tournaments where you cannot strike the head. But that isn't an element of kyokushin as a karate style, it's just a rule in a sport where the fighters have trained in kyokushin. Kyokushin (and shotokan and goju-ryu and so on) are, per se, like krav maga or jiu-jitsu, which aren't sports.

On the other hand, it's true that hitting the dojo will never mean actual combat, unless you are training with the insane. It's a lot of instruction (and physical conditioning), but zero experience. From this point of view, living in a bad neighbourhood is probably better than hitting the dojo everyday.

On the other hand, WW2 Japan actually had some of the best masters teaching special forces, under realistic conditions, wearing boots, and the military was pleased with the results; but this was after testing and discarding a number of styles that didn't work, sometimes simply because they required too much time to learn. People hurt each other during such training, which was still the case years after the war (after the American ban was lifted). Karatekas were aware of the fact that karate wouldn't change the course of the war,* and, in a way, it was the opposite: the war influenced how karate was taught.

*except I think karate is traditionally taught in a way that fundamentally teaches you to obey promptly and not question orders.

I agree with all of this. I'd also like to point out that there's a distinction between 'sports' focused styles and styles intended for actual combat* - there's some significant overlap, but there are some philosophical and practical differences between them.

The best example I can think of it in Japanese archery - kyudo (弓道) is the 'sports' style and is more focused on discipline and meditative practices, whereas kyujutsu (弓術) is the battlefield art, which is focused on getting as many arrows downrange as possible whilst moving and from standing and prone positions.
There's a particular technique in kyudo, yugaeri, where after loosing the string, the bow is permitted to spin in the hand. From the intention of most kyudo philosophies, this is intentional as the force from the release is permitted to continue until it naturally stops (the bow string hitting the outside of the forearm). In kyujutsu, this is bad, since it increases the time between shots as the archer has to reset the bow to a shooting position before nocking the next arrow.

Due to the extended period of peace before the 16th Century Sengoku Civil War, many samurai were trained in kyudo rather than kyujutsu, so that when war broke out, many kyudo practices, such as yugaeri, found their way onto the battlefield and stayed there throughout the Edo period; this means that the differences between kyudo and kyujutsu isn't as clear cut as it used to be.

*As a rule of thumb, anything ending in 'do' (道 meaning 'way of') is a 'sports' style while anything ending in 'jutsu/jitsu' (術 meaning 'art of') is primarily battlefield intended.

[Wraith]

There's a semi-obscure anime called Grenadier where one of the central themes is that guns make swords obsolete. The other themes are that friendship will save the world and that big boobs jiggle.

Speaking of anime, a couple more examples come to mind.

Gate - Thus the JSDF Fought There! is another half-example about what happens when a medieval-era force of fantasy stereotypes antagonise a modern-day military, which is to say that it goes very poorly for them.
Mostly the series concentrates on modern technology being used against guys with swords, or how a modern jet fighter would fare against a building-sized dragon, but there are also a few examples wherein modern soldiers with rifles are outstandingly outnumbered by guys with swords and axes (some of whom are typically over-the-top anime martial artists, weapon-twirling and monologues included) or are using iron-age military techniques like cavalry charge and blocks of archers.

Obviously the gun-toting JDF wins comfortably, but the series goes out of its way to show that its not JUST the guns that make them superior, but their formal training, logistical ingenuity and camaraderie (compared to the fractious, often conscripted enemy) that really solidifies their resolve.

And then there's Arifureta: From Commonplace to World's Strongest, which is about a D&D character who realises that he can make gunpowder (among other things) and thus becomes a force of nature that overshadows his group of ~12 martial arts/fantasy-esque peers. They struggle to fight a single house-sized monster as a group, punching it, hacking with swords, throwing fireballs; meanwhile the protagonist pulls out a minigun and mows down an army of thousands almost casually.

[Clertar]

Yojimbo has this as one of the themes of the film.

Spoiler

Show

[Brother Oni]

Gate - Thus the JSDF Fought There! is another half-example about what happens when a medieval-era force of fantasy stereotypes antagonise a modern-day military, which is to say that it goes very poorly for them.
Mostly the series concentrates on modern technology being used against guys with swords, or how a modern jet fighter would fare against a building-sized dragon, but there are also a few examples wherein modern soldiers with rifles are outstandingly outnumbered by guys with swords and axes (some of whom are typically over-the-top anime martial artists, weapon-twirling and monologues included) or are using iron-age military techniques like cavalry charge and blocks of archers.

Unfortunately, the series falls prone to typical anime stereotypes on both sides, with various JGSDF members being far more experienced than they really would (Kuribayashi mainly), especially with the lack of active deployments to warzones the JSDF in general get.

Itami is about the only person of the main cast that I would expect to have such training, being both a certified Ranger and Special Forces trained.

Obviously the gun-toting JDF wins comfortably, but the series goes out of its way to show that its not JUST the guns that make them superior, but their formal training, logistical ingenuity and camaraderie (compared to the fractious, often conscripted enemy) that really solidifies their resolve.

Given the lessons learnt which lead up to how a modern military works, it's not surprising that esprit de corps features heavily.

From reading up on other forums on opinions on the JSDF, they're usually regarded as very professional, but for obvious reasons, very lacking in actual combat experience. I'd hate to think how even more poorly the fantasy kingdoms would have fared against a military with more deployment experience and with a much more aggressive culture (USMC for example).