Do Martial Arts being replaced by guns martial arts movies actually exist ?

[Traab]

Unfortunately, the series falls prone to typical anime stereotypes on both sides, with various JGSDF members being far more experienced than they really would (Kuribayashi mainly), especially with the lack of active deployments to warzones the JSDF in general get.

Itami is about the only person of the main cast that I would expect to have such training, being both a certified Ranger and Special Forces trained.



Given the lessons learnt which lead up to how a modern military works, it's not surprising that esprit de corps features heavily.

From reading up on other forums on opinions on the JSDF, they're usually regarded as very professional, but for obvious reasons, very lacking in actual combat experience. I'd hate to think how even more poorly the fantasy kingdoms would have fared against a military with more deployment experience and with a much more aggressive culture (USMC for example).

Probably pretty similar to what happens to voldemort and his troops in this fanfic Old Soldiers Basically, harry recruits a bunch of squibs who served for literally decades, 40-50 years or so in her majesties military in everything from the freaking NAPOLEONIC WARS to the korean war and they form a military unit that applies actual military training and gear and proceed to wtfpwn the death eaters to a hilariously lopsided extent. The final battle is something to behold. Everything from claymores mounted a story or two in the air to clear out giants, to white phosphorus to take out dementors vamps and werewolves, to freaking gunships and artillery. Its like a 2 minute battle and ends about how you expect.

[Sapphire Guard]

That seems heavily reliant on the Death Eaters giving a stand up fight, among other things.

I haven't got very far yet, but the usual fault of stories like this is they assume the older forces won't adapt to the new circumstances.

[Traab]

That seems heavily reliant on the Death Eaters giving a stand up fight, among other things.

I haven't got very far yet, but the usual fault of stories like this is they assume the older forces won't adapt to the new circumstances.

They went with a PR campaign, basically, they raided every location they could find, then went on wizarding radio and said, "Hey, voldemort, you think you are superior? Me and my guys will be at this location at this time. Either come and prove it, or be exposed as gutless cowards who nobody should be afraid of. " They proved that voldemort couldnt hide from them by taking their various safehouses out, then attacked his reputation by publicly calling him a coward. While its a bit ropey as far as justifications go, it worked well enough for the purpose of the story as voldemort NEEDS the people to fear him, and if he wont face harry and a couple hundred "old men" he would lose a lot of his support both official and unofficial. The fact that he got challenged in a way he couldnt conveniently ignore forced his hand. Also, its not exactly a long campaign. It started some time during summer break and ended before the start of school. Plus, they do keep adding in new things to adapt to. Like every battle they show off something new. The story escalates pretty fast.

[Brother Oni]

That seems heavily reliant on the Death Eaters giving a stand up fight, among other things.

I haven't got very far yet, but the usual fault of stories like this is they assume the older forces won't adapt to the new circumstances.

I'm in about Chapter 8 and it's fairly clear that it's written by an American with minimal knowledge about British firearm laws or military culture.

If I was being unkind, it looks like they got all their information from watching a couple of episodes of Sharpe (as evidenced by the name of his new Regiment) and maybe the film Zulu.

There's also a fair few inconsistencies, like the RSM being just under 100 years old and with the story written in 2007, gives his DOB of 1908 as the earliest. That would make him between 6 to 10 for WW1, yet it's mentioned that he's served in both world wars.

There's also a fair bit of American civilian gun culture which clashes with the supposed old school British military background; the RSM has a line "Never get into a gunfight with a calibre that starts with a number smaller than four" - from a personal perspective, I'd rather be shot at with a .45 ACP than a .223 or .308 rifle rounds (~5.56mm and ~7.62mm in modern nomenclature).

I'll keep at it, but I don't think I'll make it to the end of Chapter 26.

[Tyndmyr]

A bit ago I read in a movie magazine that there was a sub genre of Martial Arts movies where the theme was the heroes realising the Martial Art they had studied was being made irrelevant by the introduction of guns. However I was thinking about it recently and the only films I could think of that do that are 'The Guillotines' and a bit 'Once Upon a Time in China'
Am I missing loads or did the writer just not know what he was talking about ?

P.S
Arguably 'The Last Samurai' and 'Ran' could count but I wouldn't, personally, class them as martial arts movies

Essentially, guns are the western martial art(s) of choice, and one can view the entire genre of action movies that revolve around spraying bullets as martial arts films. Kind of an offshoot from the main topic, though. However, it does result in eventually getting to films like John Wick, where the protaganist is basically on a plot line not far from many martial arts flms, just with guns. On the way there, we had less serious films like Shoot 'Em Up.

You have films with settings where the gun has been specifically incorporated into martial arts, and this has displaced other martial arts. Equallibrium is probably the most explicit of these.

There are quite a lot of hand to hand fights where the victor is whoever gets to the gun first, though. So, if you're looking for a very strict "the gun trumps hand to hand combat on screen," those would be pretty clearcut. It's so common that I'd say it's almost a standard trope these days.

[Vahnavoi]

One of the most effective tactics in real combat is tackling the other person and stabbing them with a knife, no martial arts are built around that. Or shield wall fighting, or how best to fight two vs one.

Eh?

You don't know a whole lot of martial arts, if you think these are not basic parts of many martial arts. Reality check: if you are trained to take someone down and hit them with your fists, then you can take them down and hit them with a knife. If you are trained to hit someone with your fists while not being hit yourself, you can hit then with a knife while not being hit yourself. That's before getting into any knife-specific techniques or martial arts.

As for 2vs1 and shield walls, those are more rare, but that's because they're contextually less useful for most martial arts practicioners. They're still common where they are contextually relevant, such as police and security training for the former (assumption: you are working with a partner) and historical re-enactment and boffing for the latter (assumption: you are actually engaging in mass semi- or full contact combat).

[Rynjin]

One of the most effective tactics in real combat is tackling the other person and stabbing them with a knife, no martial arts are built around that. Or shield wall fighting, or how best to fight two vs one. The arts part is that it is innately unrealistic.

I take it you've never heard of sambo (or any other modern military martial art), pencak silat (which is where the use of a karambit in martial arts originated, a knife that remains popular in modern militaries today), or eskrima?

These are just ones that are fairly well known for their knife techniques, mind you, most other martial arts designed to be used in actual combat give ample opportunities to use a knife along with their main techniques; while I've never seen it personally I have no doubt that a trained combat practitioner of Muay Thai could get some real **** done with a knife in hand, since it's a hard striking discipline that's not going to be held back much by the lack of a free hand.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I'd also argue that in the context of historical and weapon based martial arts and specifically full on combat a knife isn't that good. Not if we're already comparing it to something like a shield wall. A knife is super useful for non-fighting purposes, it's super portable and light and even easy to hide on a person. But either for a one on one duel or as a main battlefield weapon or even primary sidearm, a knife (of regular modern knife size, including combat knives) really isn't the most effective weapon out there. It takes too many stabs on average to stop the other guy from fighting back completely, and the reach is pretty limited too. Before non-breach loading pistols, most people who could afford it had a sword as a sidearm. Machete, messer and cutlass like objects were popular among those who couldn't afford a full sword, but they hardly count as knives.

And even in a backup to a backup or sidearm to a sidearm context we often see daggers that are quite a bit fancier than a simple knife. All sorts of parrying daggers, "sword breakers" and trident daggers were designed to help in defense rather than just offense. Or at least to have a half decent hand guard.

Knives probably do a bit better when compared to those martial arts weapons that represent improvised weapons and objects a person in that time might have reasonably had in the house, like a tonfa being the handle of hand mill (or something like that) and the kama being a sickle. But even then, those were often picked because they offer some specific advantage that could give you a chance versus real weapons like spears and swords. A tonfa is used as an arm guard for parrying, a kama to cut into the shaft of a spear and in that way lock it. A knife offers pretty much only offense, while its short reach means that against an opponent with any other weapon you'll need some form of defense.

So whether knives are a great weapon is very context dependent. They're certainly a very versatile tool/weapon, possibly the most versatile one we ever came up with. It can even be used to make other (simple) weapons! And in some situations it could really be the best choice of weapon available. Say some sort of historical concealed carry situation (with no metal detectors and alternatives like pepper spray not available or not lethal enough for the objective). And knives are of course actually a good choice in real life present day combat, but only when all rifles and pistols and buddies running to get more rifles and pistols are out of play, basically. It's good because it's all you have. Or rather it's better than using a random object as an improvised club, which is the next step down. But just stabbing with a knife as the most effective martial art in a general armed context? I'm not convinced.

[Rynjin]

A lot of these knife based martial arts were invented in places where you weren't allowed to own combat weapons unless you were part of the aristocracy; this extends to both Europe and Asia. In those cases a knife or dagger was a solid choice, as at least it was better than nothing (and often legal to carry anywhere, when someone may look askance at a tonfa or something in the wrong context). Given the choice between no blade and a short blade, I'm pretty sure most people would choose the latter.

Not every country could get as cheeky with it as the Germans and the "totally not a sword, just a big knife bro" messer.

[Mordar]

Yojimbo has this as one of the themes of the film.

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Both Yojimbo and Seven Samurai immediately came to mind as the answer the OP question for me...

I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned earlier, so perhaps I am misunderstanding, though.

- M