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  1. - Top - End - #91
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Cyberpunk - What exactly is it?

    Iīll come back to SIN in a moment...

    @CharonsHelper:

    Hm. Tough topic. The ugly truth is, that pre-Corona, we've basically run out of people to employ. We really scraped the bottom of the barrel, with those 3% not being "unemployed" but rather "not fit for employment of any kind". There is a hot debate ongoing about switching from 40H/week to a 4/8 model, but that is heavily resisted because no-one has a clue how the fill the free positions.

    Hence the creation of the "450". At minimum wage, thatīs around 40-50 hours/month, depending on the exact country. Note that retirement pay also includes universal health service, so this being exempt from taxes is a nice sum (In the sense that 40h/w at minimum wage will get you around 1,6K before taxes). That should have kept some of the "old hands" working, at least providing some experienced manpower, but mostly, it didn't happen.

    I`m not exactly writing this for the fun of it. A topic that has come up in relation to cyberpunk was migration/refugees. Snow Crash has The Raft, GitS SAC is heavily based around a not specified asian war and the lasting results of it, "Bridge" also carries a heavy vibe of inland-migration....

    That made me wonder a bit about that specific part of the trope. Despite being the world leader in full automation, beyond all the Industrie 4.0 talk, the last pre-Corona census showed that we still have around 10-15 million open positions, depending on how you count Apprenticeship, not counting possible "450s".

    In a certain sense, Germany is a cruel, cold and unforgiving society. I know that half the world considered us to be nuts based on the happenings that started around 2015, but it took some time and effort, by now we have managed to educate a whole "immigration wave" up to the point that nearly 45% managed to enter the regular workforce.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Cyberpunk - What exactly is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    Itīs interesting to compare how different systems work.

    German work contracts basically come down to only four major elements:
    Right there is one of the most basic differences between the US and Europe--in the US, it is very rare for individuals to have formal, written employment contracts.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Cyberpunk - What exactly is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by dps View Post
    Right there is one of the most basic differences between the US and Europe--in the US, it is very rare for individuals to have formal, written employment contracts.
    Is that a joke?
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Cyberpunk - What exactly is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Is that a joke?
    The Mod Ogre: No, but I think we need to stay away from work contracts and the like.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Cyberpunk - What exactly is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    However, regardless of the above, if one sees the visual cues the are indicative of the cyberpunk aesthetic they'll recognize it as cyberpunk even if it's thematically hollow and largely content in its complacency.
    That is true of all genres, I think. One could easily recognize a bad fantasy movie as being fantasy, even if the plot is pretty dumb and missing anything like a decent theme.

    Quote Originally Posted by BisectedBrioche View Post
    To be fair, you could argue that cyberpunk is a very specific dystopian future that seemed plausible in the 80's, and even when it moves with the times, it keeps a few flourishes from then.

    After all, the idea of Japan taking over the planet seems a little quaint now (with it no longer being the electronics manufacturing hub it was a few decades ago), but a lot of Cyberpunk doesn't think twice about why angry cyborgs for hire would be called street samurai.

    And the idea of cyberspace being a place you can hang around in is just too interesting to ignore, despite bordering on zeerust.
    The Japan centric conceit is perhaps a little dated, but a heavily Chinese or pan-asian influence remains quite commonly used in modern takes on the future. Still, in terms of corporate culture, I think Japan's still has something to offer. Western corporate culture is fairly well known, but this is...similar, yet very different. The idea of cultures blending together in the future is common to a lot of sci-fi.

    Hell, look at Firefly's incorporation of Chinese language and elements. Same basic principle there, despite not really being cyberpunk. There's a concept that national boundaries are weakening, and cultures will continue to intermingle further. Mashups of very different styles help sell that.

    Fears of Japan taking over the world have mostly faded, but the rest of it remains relevant. Likewise, the concept of a gig economy can be seen in at least some cyberpunk, with a strong emphasis on individuals doing ad-hoc work. This is...probably reasonably accurate, and the divide between the secure, but uniform corporate culture and the independents still ultimately controlled by the same folks is not so unrealistic after all.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Cyberpunk - What exactly is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    That is true of all genres, I think. One could easily recognize a bad fantasy movie as being fantasy, even if the plot is pretty dumb and missing anything like a decent theme.
    Sure, but I've never seen anyone argue that because a fantasy work is sub-par - based on their tastes in fantasy - that it shouldn't be called fantasy and instead be relabelled as a different genre.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Cyberpunk - What exactly is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    Sure, but I've never seen anyone argue that because a fantasy work is sub-par - based on their tastes in fantasy - that it shouldn't be called fantasy and instead be relabelled as a different genre.
    While I agree with your sentiment - to play devil's advocate, "cyberpunk" is a much narrower genre than "fantasy". Cyberpunk is a pretty narrow subgenre of the broader "sci-fi". I've heard disagreement about plenty of stories and whether they fit into other narrow subgenres such as "space western" or "space opera" etc.

    On the fantasy end, I've heard arguments over whether something counts as "urban fantasy", "dark fantasy", "high fantasy", "gritty", or "magepunk" etc.

    Though I do agree; the QUALITY of a piece shouldn't be an argument for whether or not something fits into a sub-genre. There is plenty of crap in any subgenre. One can't just claim that all of the bad/mediocre stuff doesn't qualify for one's favorite subgenre.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Cyberpunk - What exactly is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    That is true of all genres, I think.
    We have genre (broad field) and sub-genre (narrow field of the former).

    In this context, normally, cyberpunk is a sub-genre of "hard" science fiction, so extrapolation based on facts and in this case with very specific focus on social matters.

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    Default Re: Cyberpunk - What exactly is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    Sure, but I've never seen anyone argue that because a fantasy work is sub-par - based on their tastes in fantasy - that it shouldn't be called fantasy and instead be relabelled as a different genre.
    I would agree. Bad cyberpunk doesn't suddenly become not cyberpunk. It just probably doesn't get remembered or cited a lot.

    That said, fantasy does sometimes get...ghettoized? Perhaps not quite the right term. There is a strange treatment of sci-fi and fantasy that puts them apart from other fiction, yet somehow mashed together. There is something of an idea in written fiction that fantastical elements somehow render books less worthy of being considered proper literature.

    For whatever reason, this does not seem to be as accepted in film, where such things are referred to as "high concept"

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Cyberpunk - What exactly is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    That said, fantasy does sometimes get...ghettoized? Perhaps not quite the right term. There is a strange treatment of sci-fi and fantasy that puts them apart from other fiction, yet somehow mashed together. There is something of an idea in written fiction that fantastical elements somehow render books less worthy of being considered proper literature.
    What a bizarre concept.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2020-09-15 at 01:50 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Cyberpunk - What exactly is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I would agree. Bad cyberpunk doesn't suddenly become not cyberpunk. It just probably doesn't get remembered or cited a lot.

    That said, fantasy does sometimes get...ghettoized? Perhaps not quite the right term. There is a strange treatment of sci-fi and fantasy that puts them apart from other fiction, yet somehow mashed together. There is something of an idea in written fiction that fantastical elements somehow render books less worthy of being considered proper literature.

    For whatever reason, this does not seem to be as accepted in film, where such things are referred to as "high concept"
    I rather think that EE lacks experience in serious world-building and the story has outgrown the initial setup.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Cyberpunk - What exactly is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    I rather think that EE lacks experience in serious world-building and the story has outgrown the initial setup.
    Did I accidentally wander back into the Practical Guide thread or are we talking about a different EE?

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Cyberpunk - What exactly is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggling Ghast View Post
    Here’s an interesting thought: would you consider Robocop part of the cyberpunk genre, as it shares a lot of the same elements (trans-humanism, amoral corporations, rampant criminality)?
    Definitely yes.

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: Cyberpunk - What exactly is it?

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    Ultimately I think cyberpunk is ... 90% an aesthetic ...
    if one sees the visual cues the are indicative of the cyberpunk aesthetic they'll recognize it as cyberpunk
    The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel. Relentless rain splashing off the neon lights and skyscrapers. Somewhere amongst the crowd of hackers, street samurai and lost souls, in a dingy basement bar the sound of the underground neon future can be heard.



    Unlike the Punk subculture, which has a strong and easily identifiable musical genre, with its distorted guitar sounds, rough recording techniques, simple song structures and favorism for the less known artists above megacorp products, CyberPunk has no clearly defined musical aspect in its aesthetic. There only seems to be some vague agreement that the sound of the future is electric.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    The Japan centric conceit is perhaps a little dated, but a heavily Chinese or pan-asian influence remains quite commonly used in modern takes on the future.
    My search for cyberpunk music has lead me to this particular gem: Tokyo Electric by Mike Rai (aka Mykah from the video above). The influences of jcore, industrial, house and video game funk really fits what i think of as the sound of cyberpunk. Especially the mix of traditional asian instruments like the Guzheng and Erhus with the sound of electronic synthesizers in "Shinkansen" reminds me of the Shadowrun: Hong Kong Game Soundtrack by Jon Everist and takes me straight back from Chiba to Heoi.
    Last edited by jdizzlean; 2020-10-10 at 01:42 PM. Reason: restored

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: Cyberpunk - What exactly is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CharonsHelper View Post
    While I agree with your sentiment - to play devil's advocate, "cyberpunk" is a much narrower genre than "fantasy". Cyberpunk is a pretty narrow subgenre of the broader "sci-fi". I've heard disagreement about plenty of stories and whether they fit into other narrow subgenres such as "space western" or "space opera" etc.

    On the fantasy end, I've heard arguments over whether something counts as "urban fantasy", "dark fantasy", "high fantasy", "gritty", or "magepunk" etc.

    Though I do agree; the QUALITY of a piece shouldn't be an argument for whether or not something fits into a sub-genre. There is plenty of crap in any subgenre. One can't just claim that all of the bad/mediocre stuff doesn't qualify for one's favorite subgenre.
    Yeah, but here you get into a question of Authorial Intent and such, which can make such classifications tricky.

    Like, let's say for the sake of this point that Cyberpunk, as a genre, MUST contain countercultural themes, resistance to some sort of Hegemonic Authority. In the end, the story is about the evils of "The System".

    So, we write a story about a hacker who uncovers a plot by an evil corporate executive to do some evil scheme. The Hacker uncovers the plot, flees from Corporate Security, navigates the neon-lit underworld, and eventually thwarts the scheme. At the end of the story, the evil executive is dragged away by the Megacorp's shady goons, implied to be executed for the crime of using the Megacorp's resources to pursue the Evil Scheme.

    So we check the aesthetic boxes, but, does this count as a "Cyberpunk" story. After all, this story didn't really turn out to be about resistance to a hegemonic authority, the villain is explicitly acting on his own personal behalf, rather than on behalf of the Megacorp. The Hacker isn't really fighting "The System" so much as he's fighting against an individual villain who happens to hold a position of power within that system.

    Like, assuming we believe that Cyberpunk must be about fighting the system , maybe the author intended to have a countercultural theme, but failed to properly carry it across in the text? Or maybe their point is that "The System" is bad because the sort of people who rise to positions of authority in such things are ALSO the type of people to abuse that authority for their own benefit. The System isn't evil because it was behind the Evil Scheme, it's evil because the Villain was able to rise to a position of authority within it in the first place.

    When it comes to something as basic as Genre, or even sub-genre, is it helpful to have a classification that's reliant on something so hard to discern, vs using high level tropes and/or aesthetics, which are more recognizable than "Does this story properly convey certain themes". If I say "I want a cyberpunk story", can you had me a book and say "I think the author was TRYING to write cyberpunk here, but just ended up with a hard sci-fi neon-noir with japanese aesthetic influences"
    Last edited by BRC; 2020-10-09 at 05:56 PM.
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  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: Cyberpunk - What exactly is it?

    So in terms of literature, the suffix -punk indicates fear of society, authority, and the system, and it's the prefix that suggests what sort of world the story takes place in?

    Cyberpunk would thus include all sorts of stories, involving oppressive and corrupt societies, centering on the use of computer technology.
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    Default Re: Cyberpunk - What exactly is it?

    I think in your example, BRC, this still includes an element of an evil system. While the evil corp exec does not have the official blessing of the oppressive system, he is still using its resources and without the system in place, couldn't do what he does.
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    Default Re: Cyberpunk - What exactly is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I think in your example, BRC, this still includes an element of an evil system. While the evil corp exec does not have the official blessing of the oppressive system, he is still using its resources and without the system in place, couldn't do what he does.
    Plus, even once the corp exec is defeated, the system remains, and thus someone else can easily do what he did by making use of those same resources. A battle was won, but the war is still being lost.

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    Default Re: Cyberpunk - What exactly is it?

    Very interesting stuff posted here.
    Too much to address everything.

    For me the "punk"-part always meant people who live (more or less willingly) outside the regular (oppressive) society - the above mentioned SIN-less, outcasts, dropouts...
    Those don't have to be the protagonists, but they have to have a major part/impact in the setting.
    The "cyber"-part on the other side is just the sci-fi tech stuff, hacking and body-mods are usually on the top of the list, but it doesn't have to be included.


    I would be very interested, what you think about two other settings:

    Transmetropolitan (comic by Warren Ellis)
    Lots of dystopic and transhumanist themes

    and

    River of Gods (novel by Ian McDonald)
    it's certainly not the classic Cyberpunk-setting, but it ticks a lot of the mentioned boxes

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    Default Re: Cyberpunk - What exactly is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Yeah, but here you get into a question of Authorial Intent and such, which can make such classifications tricky.

    Like, let's say for the sake of this point that Cyberpunk, as a genre, MUST contain countercultural themes, resistance to some sort of Hegemonic Authority. In the end, the story is about the evils of "The System".

    So, we write a story about a hacker who uncovers a plot by an evil corporate executive to do some evil scheme. The Hacker uncovers the plot, flees from Corporate Security, navigates the neon-lit underworld, and eventually thwarts the scheme. At the end of the story, the evil executive is dragged away by the Megacorp's shady goons, implied to be executed for the crime of using the Megacorp's resources to pursue the Evil Scheme.

    So we check the aesthetic boxes, but, does this count as a "Cyberpunk" story. After all, this story didn't really turn out to be about resistance to a hegemonic authority, the villain is explicitly acting on his own personal behalf, rather than on behalf of the Megacorp. The Hacker isn't really fighting "The System" so much as he's fighting against an individual villain who happens to hold a position of power within that system.

    Like, assuming we believe that Cyberpunk must be about fighting the system , maybe the author intended to have a countercultural theme, but failed to properly carry it across in the text? Or maybe their point is that "The System" is bad because the sort of people who rise to positions of authority in such things are ALSO the type of people to abuse that authority for their own benefit. The System isn't evil because it was behind the Evil Scheme, it's evil because the Villain was able to rise to a position of authority within it in the first place.

    When it comes to something as basic as Genre, or even sub-genre, is it helpful to have a classification that's reliant on something so hard to discern, vs using high level tropes and/or aesthetics, which are more recognizable than "Does this story properly convey certain themes". If I say "I want a cyberpunk story", can you had me a book and say "I think the author was TRYING to write cyberpunk here, but just ended up with a hard sci-fi neon-noir with japanese aesthetic influences"
    What you are talking about there is effectively the definition of Post Cyberpunk, which is cyberpunk but in a world where the system is more neutral and people in positions of power are perfectly capable of taking effective action to make the world a better place, often featuring protagonists who are part of the system or work with people who are. Snow Crash and Ghost in the Shell are the two best pieces of media to point towards for best exemplifying it. Personally I think of them as just being the Cyberpunk but with different themes but some people get fairly intense about the categorization of these things.
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