OOTS #1213 - The Discussion Thread

[mjasghar]

There’s no evidence that any of the pantheon gods listen to goblin worship
Prima facia there must have been some goblin who prayed to at least one of the gods - and likely many
Yet there’s no evidence that they were answered or able to become clerics
If there’s so much worship that the Dark One wants to hoard it, why didn’t the gods take it for themselves to being with?
Again, this goes back to self knowing stick universe and confirms the idea the goblins were created as an exp harvesting race
The Dark One is still a git though

[KorvinStarmast]

The Dark One is still a git though

So is Redcloak, but there may be hope for him to have another "Aha!" moment. (See strip 451 for his first one).

[Larsaan]

There’s no evidence that any of the pantheon gods listen to goblin worship

There's also no evidence that they don't. And since we've had several examples of other monster races having clerics (most prominently Malack and the frost giants), and there's nothing to suggest that goblins are being singled out more than any other monster race (aside from the recent conflicts over the Gates, of course), there's really no reason to think that a goblin couldn't become a cleric of Thor/Tiamat/Pig/etc if he or she tried.

TDO can say what he wants, but it's not like it's rare for growing religions to smear their competitors.

[Worldsong]

There's also no evidence that they don't. And since we've had several examples of other monster races having clerics (most prominently Malack and the frost giants), and there's nothing to suggest that goblins are being singled out more than any other monster race (aside from the recent conflicts over the Gates, of course), there's really no reason to think that a goblin couldn't become a cleric of Thor/Tiamat/Pig/etc if he or she tried.

TDO can say what he wants, but it's not like it's rare for growing religions to smear their competitors.

What we do know is that before the Dark One came to be the goblinoids worshipped no-one. The Giant stated that as Word of God.

Of course that could just mean that the goblinoids never tried to worship any of the other gods but at the very least it shows that there's something strange going on between the goblinoids and the gods, and it's a nudge and a wink towards the theory that the gods knowingly abandoned the goblinoids.

The elves worship their own gods in addition to certain Western Gods (since their homeland is in the west), not in place of. The elven gods are more like elf-specific associates rather than a replacement pantheon.

The goblins, on the other hand, worshipped no one before the Dark One.

There we go. Black and white. While one can interpret this many ways one thing is certain: something was going on there, and it probably wasn't anything good.

[mjasghar]

As I said it’s unlikely not one of them tried to pray to an evil pantheon god
And then there’s possibility of elemental clerics

[Larsaan]

Maybe. We'll have to see when we sooner or later get some insight into TDO. The cynical Doylist in me wonders if that's the case just because it makes the narrative more straightforward. If there were goblin clerics of the main pantheons running around, it would muck up the clear divisions that have been drawn up so far.

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It would also be a giant feather in my "Resurrected Right-Eye for Supreme Leader 2020"-novelty cap, but that's besides the point.

It does seem very conspicuous, though, to have an entire species of atheists in a setting where clerics exist and practically everyone seems to worship something (even if it's just "the concept of rocks").

[Worldsong]

As I said it’s unlikely not one of them tried to pray to an evil pantheon god
And then there’s possibility of elemental clerics

That's where my mind is as well. For the goblinoids to not have worshipped anyone before the Dark One something must have happened.

Maybe. We'll have to see when we sooner or later get some insight into TDO. The cynical Doylist in me wonders if that's the case just because it makes the narrative more straightforward. If there were goblin clerics of the main pantheons running around, it would muck up the clear divisions that have been drawn up so far.

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It would also be a giant feather in my "Resurrected Right-Eye for Supreme Leader 2020"-novelty cap, but that's besides the point.

It does seem very conspicuous, though, to have an entire species of atheists in a setting where clerics exist and practically everyone seems to worship something (even if it's just "the concept of rocks").

If you have a group of atheists in a world where worship is not only common but scientifically supported by worshippers gaining divine benefits there's going to be a story behind it. Maybe the atheists are not allowed to worship the gods. Maybe the gods did something that the group of atheists refuses to accept (keep in mind this happened before the Dark One existed, so it can't be the Dark One's fault).

I very much doubt that it's just for convenience though. Rich is a better writer than that, he's not going to drop a bomb like that which could have a very strong impact on the story just for the sake of cleaning up the narrative.

[pendell]

It's not just goblins , though. Evidently the elves got their own gods in the pantheon, separate from the ones worshipped by humans and other races. No indication what they worshipped before they created their own gods through their own belief; perhaps they worshipped the existing pantheons, or perhaps they simply worshipped themselves.

Anyway, the admission of those gods to godhood was the pretext by which the evil gods were able to find acceptance for the Dark One.

ETA: I think the Dark One's plan is to use the snarl to kill all the other gods. Then he will seal the snarl himself and rule unchallenged as the only god of creation. With only one god, there is no possibility of another new snarl. Then he can make a new world, one in which goblins are the ruling race and the other races, if they exist at all, will be in just as terrible a predicament as goblins now are or worse.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[dancrilis]

It's not just goblins , though. Evidently the elves got their own gods in the pantheon, separate from the ones worshipped by humans and other races. No indication what they worshipped before they created their own gods through their own belief; perhaps they worshipped the existing pantheons, or perhaps they simply worshipped themselves.

Anyway, the admission of those gods to godhood was the pretext by which the evil gods were able to find acceptance for the Dark One.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

In fairness the elven gods were apparently sponsored where The Dark One was unsponsored.

[Worldsong]

It's not just goblins , though. Evidently the elves got their own gods in the pantheon, separate from the ones worshipped by humans and other races. No indication what they worshipped before they created their own gods through their own belief; perhaps they worshipped the existing pantheons, or perhaps they simply worshipped themselves.

Anyway, the admission of those gods to godhood was the pretext by which the evil gods were able to find acceptance for the Dark One.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Rich's comment states that the elves worship the elven gods in addition to the standard Western Pantheon, which doesn't completely confirm but strongly suggests that whatever was going on with the elves they don't have the same total disconnect that the goblinoids were/are dealing with.

[bunsen_h]

ETA: I think the Dark One's plan is to use the snarl to kill all the other gods. Then he will seal the snarl himself and rule unchallenged as the only god of creation. With only one god, there is no possibility of another new snarl. Then he can make a new world, one in which goblins are the ruling race and the other races, if they exist at all, will be in just as terrible a predicament as goblins now are or worse.

Why would he think he could seal up the Snarl, if it's powerful enough to destroy all the other gods? Or are you suggesting that he's completely irrational? The ritual would let him move one Gate (i.e. the only one that remains) to another plane, but it doesn't seal that Gate, much less the other rifts that don't have Gates any more.

[Worldsong]

If I can find a post where Rich straight up states that the Dark One's plan is to use The Plan to force the other gods into giving him favourable concessions, would that be considered proof that the Dark One isn't planning to do something much, much worse?

Because I did.

Here it is.

There is some misunderstanding of the mechanics involved here.

1.) If the Dark One succeeds at the ritual, he gains the ability to move the Gate. If he does this and moves the Gate to, say, Valhalla, then the Snarl pops out of the Gate and kills the gods on Valhalla. Then it destroys all of Valhalla until it's a big empty void-plane. And then...nothing. That's it. The Dark One does not have a way to put the Snarl back into the prison after he's unleashed it. The Snarl just lives on Valhalla now, or what's left of it.

2.) The Gate connects the prison to another plane. When the Dark One moves it, it now connects the prison to a different plane. So after the Snarl is unleashed on Plane 1, then the Dark One moves the Gate to Plane 2, it now connects the prison to Plane 2—it does not connect Planes 1 and 2.

3.) But that doesn't really matter because once the Snarl is free on any plane other than its prison, then literally any planar gateway could potentially allow it to change planes. The Dark One would cease to have any control over its location, and in fact it would be far more likely that some of the evil gods would start spamming big flashy portals to the Dark One's domain until the Snarl took the bait and went through.

4.) Alternately, once any Northern god dies, the deadlock at the Godsmoot is broken and the vote resolves (votes from dead gods don't count). Even if the world was "saved" they would be free to immediately take a second vote to destroy the world—or even just to kill all goblins—depriving the Dark One of his followers and ultimately killing him over the long term.

The Snarl is like a nuclear bomb. You can get a lot of leverage out of owning a nuclear bomb, because no one wants it dropped on them. But if everyone knows you only own one and then you use it on someone...then everyone left knows you don't have it anymore. Sucks for your one target, but it won't end well for you, either.

That's why the Dark One's actual plan is to use the threat of moving the Gate to extract concessions from the other gods and deter preemptive strikes against his followers. Those concessions will be significantly less than, "All of you be my slaves forever," because at that point, the calculus would change and some of the gods might risk the bomb getting dropped on one of them to end the Dark One's threat to their friends and family.

Also explains that the Dark One isn't so stupid as to try and use the Snarl to make himself ruler of all creation because he'd be aware the other gods wouldn't put up with that even under the threat of the Snarl.

And the fact that the Snarl can't be used to just kill all the other gods.

[pendell]

If I can find a post where Rich straight up states that the Dark One's plan is to use The Plan to force the other gods into giving him favourable concessions, would that be considered proof that the Dark One isn't planning to do something much, much worse?

Because I did.

Here it is.


Also explains that the Dark One isn't so stupid as to try and use the Snarl to make himself ruler of all creation because he'd be aware the other gods wouldn't put up with that even under the threat of the Snarl.

And the fact that the Snarl can't be used to just kill all the other gods.

Very well, if the Giant has explicitly stated in writing that this is the Dark One's plan, then I have no choice but to concede it as the truth

Nonetheless, I do question his rationality because this plan seems awfully long odds. There are too many failure points for my taste.

What could go wrong?
1) Adventurers could stop him (as they apparently have for several previous incarnations of redcloaks)
2) The gods could destroy him and the world to prevent the Snarl's escape.
3) He is forced to use the Snarl, and the surviving gods destroy him.

All of this for the narrow success path being somewhere between 2 and 3 , where he succeeds in grabbing the gate but also manages to avoid ever using it. As Tarquin would say "That plan has way too many moving parts."

There must be a thousand other ways, such as allying with other evil gods, to improve the lot of goblins that don't carry the risk of world-ending destruction. The fact that he's willing to consider such a mad plan shows either a megalomaniac or someone driven past rationality by the vengeance and hate which created him in the first place.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Worldsong]

Very well, if the Giant has explicitly stated in writing that this is the Dark One's plan, then I have no choice but to concede it as the truth

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Victory is mine!

I mean, thank you.

[Skull the Troll]

If I can find a post where Rich straight up states that the Dark One's plan is to use The Plan to force the other gods into giving him favourable concessions, would that be considered proof that the Dark One isn't planning to do something much, much worse?

Because I did.

Here it is.

*SNIP*

Also explains that the Dark One isn't so stupid as to try and use the Snarl to make himself ruler of all creation because he'd be aware the other gods wouldn't put up with that even under the threat of the Snarl.

And the fact that the Snarl can't be used to just kill all the other gods.

The WOG quote made me think of something. So the Snarl doesn't possess the ability to change planes on its own. That means its must have formed on Olympus. (makes sense those gods fought like nobody's business...) Thus the prison is Olympus. Seems like the misunderstanding the Gods have is that not all of it was destroyed or its starting to come back somehow. Also of note is the Ancient Greeks thought the Age of Bronze (not what we mean by that) ended with flood wiping everything out. Food for thought.

[Jason]

Very well, if the Giant has explicitly stated in writing that this is the Dark One's plan, then I have no choice but to concede it as the truth

Actually, you only have to concede that the Giant said this at one time. Who knows if he was being deceptive to not give away a surprise he already had planned, or if he will change his mind in future strips when he gets to putting them together.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yes, I'm sure Rich will throw away the plans of nearly two decades on a whim.

Except, I don't think we've ever seen an example of someone killing goblins purely for the XP. Even the darkest, most brutal atrocities in SoD were done for motivations like "eliminating a threat to the fabric of reality". Which doesn't mean they were Good or even justified acts, but it's not evidence that goblins were created for slaughter either.

In fact, I can only recall two instances in this comic where people used the logic of "they're a monster race, that means it's okay to kill them for XP". One was in 357, and the other was in Origin of PCs, towards orcs.

Belkar lays it out in one of the first strips in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools: We're killing them because they have green skin and pointy teeth. Rich's cards have been on the table for a long time.

[Particle_Man]

Very well, if the Giant has explicitly stated in writing that this is the Dark One's plan, then I have no choice but to concede it as the truth

Nonetheless, I do question his rationality because this plan seems awfully long odds. There are too many failure points for my taste.

What could go wrong?
1) Adventurers could stop him (as they apparently have for several previous incarnations of redcloaks)
2) The gods could destroy him and the world to prevent the Snarl's escape.
3) He is forced to use the Snarl, and the surviving gods destroy him.

All of this for the narrow success path being somewhere between 2 and 3 , where he succeeds in grabbing the gate but also manages to avoid ever using it. As Tarquin would say "That plan has way too many moving parts."

There must be a thousand other ways, such as allying with other evil gods, to improve the lot of goblins that don't carry the risk of world-ending destruction. The fact that he's willing to consider such a mad plan shows either a megalomaniac or someone driven past rationality by the vengeance and hate which created him in the first place.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

But unless Red Cloak tells The Dark One about this alternative, The Dark One doesn't have a better plan. The other gods are untrustworthy, according to TDO.

[mjasghar]

In d&d the plane of Olympus is the CG plane shared with the main elven pantheon
And we’ve seen that plane does exist
Specifically the prison (i think) has been called a demiplane within the material plane. Sort of like Ravenloft, though Curse or Strahd has seemed to define the Dark Powers and reveal some of the truth about Ravenloft. Allegedly 😉

[Riftwolf]

The WOG quote made me think of something. So the Snarl doesn't possess the ability to change planes on its own. That means its must have formed on Olympus. (makes sense those gods fought like nobody's business...) Thus the prison is Olympus. Seems like the misunderstanding the Gods have is that not all of it was destroyed or its starting to come back somehow. Also of note is the Ancient Greeks thought the Age of Bronze (not what we mean by that) ended with flood wiping everything out. Food for thought.

The same quote says the Snarl can pass through any planar portal. Maybe the first World had mundane access points to Olympus, and in consequent worlds the Gods decided that wasn't such a good idea anymore.

[Worldsong]

The WOG quote made me think of something. So the Snarl doesn't possess the ability to change planes on its own. That means its must have formed on Olympus. (makes sense those gods fought like nobody's business...) Thus the prison is Olympus. Seems like the misunderstanding the Gods have is that not all of it was destroyed or its starting to come back somehow. Also of note is the Ancient Greeks thought the Age of Bronze (not what we mean by that) ended with flood wiping everything out. Food for thought.

...Huh. That's a good point. How did the Snarl get to the Eastern Pantheon?

Actually, you only have to concede that the Giant said this at one time. Who knows if he was being deceptive to not give away a surprise he already had planned, or if he will change his mind in future strips when he gets to putting them together.

"Word of God might be lying" is one of those statements which, so far as I'm concerned, nukes the debate.

The same quote says the Snarl can pass through any planar portal. Maybe the first World had mundane access points to Olympus, and in consequent worlds the Gods decided that wasn't such a good idea anymore.

Possibly, although in that case the other pantheons are fortunate that the Snarl retreated back to the Material Plane afterwards.

[Metastachydium]

"Word of God might be lying" is one of those statements which, so far as I'm concerned, nukes the debate.

Agreed. That being said, it's still a little better than „being [the] author does not make you inherently right.”

[danielxcutter]

There appears to be several factors here in play.

What might be possibly the biggest one is simply that since Redcloak is a villain whatever he does is bad, and since he complains about discrimination about goblinoids then therefore he is also wrong about that and whatever happened to them is totally justified. It should really be the other way around, in that Redcloak is a villain because he does bad things, but a lot of people apparently don’t care about that.

There’s also some major victim blaming going on regarding goblinoids, for all the reasons that victim blaming really happens.

And of course there’s the old-fashioned “they’re goblinoids, I thought they’re Always Evil so it’s okay to kill them” people and I’m not going to say anything further than that.

[Worldsong]

Agreed. That being said, it's still a little better than „being [the] author does not make you inherently right.”

Reminds me of another webcomic where one of the recurring commenters kept trying to force their own narrative upon the story even with the author continuously telling them they were wrong. And not just about subjective stuff like 'Is this character good or not': the commenter kept claiming that certain characters must have done and thought certain things and the author is like "This character has not done these things and not thought these things."

There appears to be several factors here in play.

What might be possibly the biggest one is simply that since Redcloak is a villain whatever he does is bad, and since he complains about discrimination about goblinoids then therefore he is also wrong about that and whatever happened to them is totally justified. It should really be the other way around, in that Redcloak is a villain because he does bad things, but a lot of people apparently don’t care about that.

There’s also some major victim blaming going on regarding goblinoids, for all the reasons that victim blaming really happens.

And of course there’s the old-fashioned “they’re goblinoids, I thought they’re Always Evil so it’s okay to kill them” people and I’m not going to say anything further than that.

We know from WoG that Rich believes goblinoids routinely get treated as cannon fodder and fair game to hunt by Good-aligned adventurers in DnD.

We know from WoG that Rich considers this discrimination and is strongly opposed to it.

The story written by Rich includes a villain whose motivation (or excuse) is that he's fighting against the discrimination towards goblinkind.

The fact that we still have to jump through hoops arguing about whether goblinoids actually suffer from discrimination in this setting would be baffling for someone with less internet experience.

[mjasghar]

Probably because the plot came after the initial idea of a comic that was going to poke fun
It’d be interesting to know wether Rich would have introduced a different character to represent a different approach to goblin equality if he had known this was the way things were going to turn out.

[pendell]

Reminds me of another webcomic where one of the recurring commenters kept trying to force their own narrative upon the story even with the author continuously telling them they were wrong. And not just about subjective stuff like 'Is this character good or not': the commenter kept claiming that certain characters must have done and thought certain things and the author is like "This character has not done these things and not thought these things."



We know from WoG that Rich believes goblinoids routinely get treated as cannon fodder and fair game to hunt by Good-aligned adventurers in DnD.

We know from WoG that Rich considers this discrimination and is strongly opposed to it.

The story written by Rich includes a villain whose motivation (or excuse) is that he's fighting against the discrimination towards goblinkind.

The fact that we still have to jump through hoops arguing about whether goblinoids actually suffer from discrimination in this setting would be baffling for someone with less internet experience.

All of which brings us to the following fundamentals we know must be concluded before this story is done:
1) The goblins must no longer be discriminated against, or at least be in a much better place. In the words of Ghan-buri-Ghan in Return of the King, "no longer hunt wild men like beasts."
2) Although our protagonists must have a hand in this resolution and be critical to it, at the end of the day the goblins must bring this about themselves. Otherwise, this is a "white savior" arc, which is something we're trying to get away from.
3) The Dark One and Redcloak can't succeed in their own Plan as written. Otherwise Redcloak will be justified in his sunken cost fallacy and The Dark One in his madness. That isn't going to happen. These are villains. However, part of the solution may be a heel-face turn by either The Dark One or Redcloak or both. If neither turn from their course, their places will need to be taken by other goblins or gods who will need to be written into the story for the purpose.
4) The fiends still have 20 minutes of Chekhov's gun on the table, which gives them the power to immobilize Vaarsuvius for twenty turns, or two hundred rounds, approximately.
5) Xykon will be dealt with, Belkar killed, and Elan must get a happy ending.

We know the basic parameters of the resolution, but I think we're all on pins and needles to see how it actually works out.

ETA: Actually the case of the goblins in OOTS has close parallels with the Wild Men of Rohan in Tolkien's series. We learn from snippets that there were men who lived in Rohan before the Rohirrim came into the Mark, and the lords of Gondor gave it to them, ignoring the existence of those people who were actually living in that land. The Rohirrim hunted them like beasts, so the wild men allied with Saruman and Isengard against the "Forgoil, the strawheads, the robbers of the north", in the hope of gaining their land back.

Saruman lost, and those wild men who surrendered were first put to labor to repair the damage done, then freed. This surprised them, for Saruman had told them that the Rohirrim burned their captives alive. This proved false. We are also told that their lot under a victorious Saruman would have been to be little more than slaves to a new master, as the power of Orthanc would hardly leave them to live happy and free lives in the newly conquered land.

Later, other wild men who also lived in the land made contact with the Rohirrim and guided them past an army of Mordor which guarded the road between the Mark and Minas Tirith, allowing them to sweep onto the Pelennor Fields with the advantage of surprise and lift the siege. In reward, the King Elessar recognized their claim to their own lands, forbade anyone to hunt them, and forbade anyone to enter their land without the leave of the wild men. And so they found a measure of peace in the Fourth Age of Men.

All of this reminds me much of the plight of the goblins; like the Wild Men, they have a just grievance against the PCs who have exploited them. And like the Wild Men, they are being exploited by evil beings to achieve their own ends. Therefore, like the wild men, they must find a way to resist this evil, be part of the solution, and thus win a place for them in the sun when the villains of the story are vanquished. Whether this will mean the repentance of Redcloak and the Dark One, or their destruction, remains to be seen. But I have more hope for RC than the Dark One.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[KorvinStarmast]

And of course there’s the old-fashioned “they’re goblinoids, I thought they’re Always Evil so it’s okay to kill them” people and I’m not going to say anything further than that.

It's always OK for the blue pieces in a game of Stratego to kill the red pieces (or at least to try) and vice versa.
That's where this all comes from: a game.

[understatement]

Probably because the plot came after the initial idea of a comic that was going to poke fun
It’d be interesting to know wether Rich would have introduced a different character to represent a different approach to goblin equality if he had known this was the way things were going to turn out.

Well, I don't think it would be as morally nuanced of a story if it was a good guy representing the goblinoid equality.

[hungrycrow]

Probably because the plot came after the initial idea of a comic that was going to poke fun
It’d be interesting to know wether Rich would have introduced a different character to represent a different approach to goblin equality if he had known this was the way things were going to turn out.

Originally Redcloak and the goblins were just hapless minions getting bullied by Xykon. They actually got more villainous as Rich started developing the plot.

[Metastachydium]

Well, I don't think it would be as morally nuanced of a story if it was a good guy representing the goblinoid equality.

Hm. What would you say about an Alternative Universe Start of Darkness which would have as its protagonists

Spoiler: AU!SoD

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Redcloak, a humble and naive young cleric of the Shining One, who lost his family (barring his younger brother), village and master to human supremacists, after which he vowed to work towards a world where this may never happen again through peaceful means, if possible;
the Shining One, his wise and benevolent god Redcloak converses with each day through the Crimson Mantle, a magical mobile phone of sorts;
and Xykon, a human sorcerer, who's been on the run ever since a strike team of two wizards tried to „collect” (i.e. disappear) him upon realizing that he is an „unlicensed magic user” and – cornered by them and in panic – he accidentally killed one of the two?
Xykon and Redcloak meet in a swamp where Xykon helps the goblin and his followers escape from a warband of humans hunting them. The two quickly bond and become fast friends.

The antagonists would be

Spoiler: AU!SoD

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Right-Eye, Redcloak's brother, who was made bitter and cruel by the experiences he had; he believes that humans are inherently evil, and the struggle between man and goblin will not end until such time as one of the two species exterminates the other, and, therefore, deeply resents his brother's friendship with Xykon, as well as his pacifism;
Eugene Greenhilt, the disciple of the wizard Xykon killed (and the survivor of that fateful operation) who swears revenge on Xykon; Eugene is a decent if misguided man who just wants the world to be safe for his family (his psychologically abusive wife and a son who exhibits alarming violent and sadistic tendencies that Eugene just cannot bring himself to acknowledge), but his master whom he trusted and admired fed him lies about sorcerers from an early age and his death has only served to reinforce his convictions;
and the Monster in the Darkness, a mysterious, devillishly intelligent creature shrouded in magical darkness with an agenda of his own, who approaches our young heroes (and Right-Eye, who's, well, not exactly a hero) to tempt them with an offer they cannot afford to refuse: the Monster knows something about a series of Gates that can change the course of history forever…