OOTS #1213 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

I had precisely the same thought. Oona is not a nice person, but she does have a specific charm to her.

It’s why everyone liked Thog, except a bit smarter.

[understatement]

I'd like to point out that nothing about Durkon's offer requires him dropping the Plan and kicking it away...just putting it "on hold," at the very least.

[Doug Lampert]

I'd like to point out that nothing about Durkon's offer requires him dropping the Plan and kicking it away...just putting it "on hold," at the very least.

Xykon has decided that the plan takes priority over the needs of the goblins.

RC can't just put the plan on hold for the good of goblinkind. Not unless he's willing to do something about X, which runs squarely into his sunken costs.

[Oxenstierna]

“So now, for certain gameplay mechanics your complex, interesting characters will have to be assigned an alignment. It’s clearly a simplification, so…”

Players: “Yay! Structure.” “Structure make roleplay easy.”

“Okay, that’s not really what is intended…”

Players: “Every action taken and sentence spoken will be alignment compliant!”

“You really shouldn’t feel constrained…”

Player1: “My character will be a goblin!”
Players: “Ooooh, evil!”
Player1: “Who wants to save the children.”
Players: “Yay, good!”
Player1: “And will break any rule…”
Players: “Ooooh, chaotic!”
Player1: “To establish a better society!”
Players: “Yay, lawful!”
Player1: “And loves spicy salsa!”
Players: “Ooooh, chaotic!”
Player2: “My paladin smites the salsa! You will all eat plain chips under my leadership.”
Player3: ”My predictably secretly evil thief will predictably secretly betray the party!”

“Okay, that’s not typically fun for everyone else. Besides, in history, many evil people build up a loyal base of friends and followers. They’re not evil to everyone.”

Player3: “By buying decaf!”

*sigh* “It’s nighttime and the party are camping in the wilderness. The dying embers from the fire cast a faint glow in the clearing. Whoever takes first shift on night watch, sip that decaf if you want, and make a roll to stay awake…”

[Drake Halfmoon]

So either the dwarves get captured or the rest of the Order arrives to save the day...

OR

The Monster In The Darkness somehow helps them escape.

[dancrilis]

So either the dwarves get captured or the rest of the Order arrives to save the day...

OR

The Monster In The Darkness somehow helps them escape.

Team Evil are not trying to capture them.

There is the option that one of them dies and the other escapes (possible with the body).

[understatement]

Xykon has decided that the plan takes priority over the needs of the goblins.

RC can't just put the plan on hold for the good of goblinkind. Not unless he's willing to do something about X, which runs squarely into his sunken costs.

Oh right, yeah. Xykon wasn't even mentioned in the negotiations at all.

Back to the original point made by Hatu, then Durkon truly couldn't have known the 'right' thing to say at all.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I'm not sure there actually is a right thing to say. The real negotiations are on a deific level, given the scale of the issues involved. And The Dark One probably won't believe much of anything the other gods say until his own ego-wall is shattered.

[Gallowglass]

Out of curiosity, how could one disprove to you the idea that Redcloak's decision was based on his pent up issues rather than it being the rational response to Durkon's half-assed proposal?

Well, for me, you'd have to go back and rewrite the history of the comic to portray Redcloak as something other than someone who *thinks* he makes rational logical decisions when he is actually making irrational decisions based on his pent up issues.

His entire history and behavior for the past 1200+ strips have shown him consistently to be the one, not the other.

Not that I don't believe that he's building up to a moment of self-realization as his emotional apex of his story.

Although there does seem to be a rather large contingent of readers who seem to bend over backwards to find ways to believe the sky is orange when its blue, to the point of dismissing the author's word when he steps in to say "no, it's really blue"

[understatement]

I'm not sure there actually is a right thing to say. The real negotiations are on a deific level, given the scale of the issues involved. And The Dark One probably won't believe much of anything the other gods say until his own ego-wall is shattered.

Which sorta makes me wonder 2 things: why Redcloak accepted the negotiations in the first place, if he was already so dead-set on the Plan, and what Durkon expected Redcloak to do at the very table.

[Hatu]

Oh right, yeah. Xykon wasn't even mentioned in the negotiations at all.

Back to the original point made by Hatu, then Durkon truly couldn't have known the 'right' thing to say at all.

I would put it slightly differently.

With so many unknowns and so much distrust already between him and Redcloak, the odds that this parley would end in a signed deal were always near zero. So the real goal should have been about building bridges and getting Redcloak to start thinking about the situation in a new way. That way the NEXT parley might actually have a shot.

(That, incidentally, is why I think Durkon was right to defy Roy and start negotiating as soon as possible.)

Durkon did about as good a job building bridges as he could have. But he did too little to reframe the topic for Redcloak. And it seems to have never occurred to him that if this meeting ended without a deal Redcloak would have a very strong encentive to kill Durkon before he could rejoin the OotS.

In short, I think Durkon assumed that he could make this parley succeed if he tried hard enough, and thus had no real plans for what to do if Redcloak turned him down (even regretfully).

I find that frustrating from a character who should be wiser than that.

-H

[pendell]

Team Evil are not trying to capture them.

There is the option that one of them dies and the other escapes (possible with the body).

The quote that rings in my ears from "Goblet of Fire" is : "Kill the Spare!"

If I had to guess , the "spare" who will be killed is Minrah. She existed to give the Order a cleric back when Durkon was vamped, and now that Durkon is back, we need to find some way to remove her from the party. If it makes the stakes seem more real by killing off a character in the process, that's a bonus from a storytelling perspective.

I also don't think that , if we're to lose one of the characters, that it will be the one we just devoted an entire book , and six years of real time , to fleshing out. It would seem very anticlimactic to deadify him so quickly right after bringing him back with so much fanfare.

I suppose it's possible they will both escape alive , and I won't feel sorry if they do. I want to see more Minrah! But I can't believe the clerics can take such an awful risk and not pay SOME consequence. A few damage marks which will be easily healed when they rest and regain their spells just doesn't seem like enough of a consequence.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[dancrilis]

I suppose it's possible they will both escape alive , and I won't feel sorry if they do. I want to see more Minrah! But I can't believe the clerics can take such an awful risk and not pay SOME consequence. A few damage marks which will be easily healed when they rest and regain their spells just doesn't seem like enough of a consequence.

I was thinking a few pages ago that Minrah could die, Durkon could escape with her remains - this could act as a bit of character development for Durkon (similiar to how Roy considering his own death as a nuisance but Durkon's death nearly broke him - a whole burden of command thing), Minrah could then be brought back (after following up with Thor) and so stay in the story as someone new for The Giant to have around.

[Jason]

Well, for me, you'd have to go back and rewrite the history of the comic to portray Redcloak as something other than someone who *thinks* he makes rational logical decisions when he is actually making irrational decisions based on his pent up issues.

His entire history and behavior for the past 1200+ strips have shown him consistently to be the one, not the other.

Not that I don't believe that he's building up to a moment of self-realization as his emotional apex of his story.

Amen.
Only I would add that Red Cloak is aware on some level that this (rationalizing his irrational decisions) is what he is doing, much though he tries to hide it from himself, which is one reason why it makes him very angry when someone accuses him of being irrational. It's also why he has a moment of regret/self-hatred right before he tries to Implode Durkon.

[Worldsong]

I can't think of anything that is likely to convince me otherwise, given Red Cloak's history. If villains acted completely logically and made wise choices without their own flaws affecting them then they wouldn't be villains. I think we will reach the point in the comic where Red Cloak himself finally is forced to face that he has not been acting rationally, but out of emotion and completely selfish motivations - in short, that he was wrong. We're not at that point yet, so he can continue to rationalize for the moment.

It did make logical sense for Red Cloak to attack Durkon once Red Cloak had decided to reject Durkon's offer. It is the choice to reject the offer that was irrational. Consider that Durkon's offer was the first and only offer RC has ever received to open peaceful negotiations with leaders of the other races.

The question wasn't whether Durkon could actually deliver everything RC wants, it was whether RC was willing to take an opportunity to communicate his grievances and work with the other races towards a mutual solution. His answer was a very firm "no".

This sounds a lot like 'if people were rational and logical they wouldn't be villains'. Never really got on board with that idea.

Also, the offer was half-assed. Accepting it purely because it's the first time someone has made him an offer would, from my perspective, have been the more emotional response since you'd be basing your decision off of the fact someone is finally making you an offer, instead of judging whether it's a good offer you can work with.

And Redcloak isn't in a situation where he can settle into extended debates with the hope that maybe he gets something good out of it and voice his grievances with the opposition. The Plan is currently in motion, he can't stop it because Xykon is present. Either Durkon can present him an offer which is workable as-is or Redcloak has to reject it because the circumstances don't allow for him to work this through at a steady pace.

I'd like to point out that nothing about Durkon's offer requires him dropping the Plan and kicking it away...just putting it "on hold," at the very least.

Xykon has decided that the plan takes priority over the needs of the goblins.

RC can't just put the plan on hold for the good of goblinkind. Not unless he's willing to do something about X, which runs squarely into his sunken costs.

Oh right, yeah. Xykon wasn't even mentioned in the negotiations at all.

Back to the original point made by Hatu, then Durkon truly couldn't have known the 'right' thing to say at all.

Yeah, Xykon is kind of the ultimate block here. For one thing getting rid of him is much easier said than done, even if Redcloak did side with the Order. And Redcloak isn't going to agree to getting rid of Xykon until he already knows for a fact that he can get what he wants without Xykon, because Xykon is fundamental for his fallback plan if negotiations don't work out.

Well, for me, you'd have to go back and rewrite the history of the comic to portray Redcloak as something other than someone who *thinks* he makes rational logical decisions when he is actually making irrational decisions based on his pent up issues.

His entire history and behavior for the past 1200+ strips have shown him consistently to be the one, not the other.

Not that I don't believe that he's building up to a moment of self-realization as his emotional apex of his story.

Although there does seem to be a rather large contingent of readers who seem to bend over backwards to find ways to believe the sky is orange when its blue, to the point of dismissing the author's word when he steps in to say "no, it's really blue"

I'm pretty sure The Giant has never stated that every decision Redcloak makes is irrational and based on emotion.

Yes Redcloak has a boatload of emotional baggage and yes said baggage does often force his hand. That doesn't mean he can't also make decisions where even an outsider has to admit that, given the circumstances, those decisions make sense.

If giving Redcloak more personality and depth than a pancake counts as bending over backwards, then I guess I'm forming a backwards loop. Which I'm fine with because with those conditions backwards looping seems like the reasonable thing to do.

[Jason]

Yeah, Xykon is kind of the ultimate block here. For one thing getting rid of him is much easier said than done, even if Redcloak did side with the Order. And Redcloak isn't going to agree to getting rid of Xykon until he already knows for a fact that he can get what he wants without Xykon, because Xykon is fundamental for his fallback plan if negotiations don't work out.

Sooner or later Red Cloak is going to have to deal with Xykon. If he is in fact rational and logical about it then he must have a plan for doing so. Accepting an offer to work with the other races from Durkon merely requires him to move up his timetable for destroying the lich. Oh, and abandon the Plan that has been a lifelong obsession for him.

I'm pretty sure The Giant has never stated that every decision Redcloak makes is irrational and based on emotion.

Of course not every decision Red Cloak has made is irrational, just the most important ones.

[Jasdoif]

With so many unknowns and so much distrust already between him and Redcloak, the odds that this parley would end in a signed deal were always near zero. So the real goal should have been about building bridges and getting Redcloak to start thinking about the situation in a new way. That way the NEXT parley might actually have a shot.

Seems to me like learning some of those unknowns, to hopefully identify what the heck Redcloak might (and might not) see as a bridge, would be more immediately helpful...and hey, Durkon made some headway there.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm not sure there actually is a right thing to say. The real negotiations are on a deific level, given the scale of the issues involved. And The Dark One probably won't believe much of anything the other gods say until his own ego-wall is shattered.

This.

Which sorta makes me wonder 2 things: why Redcloak accepted the negotiations in the first place, if he was already so dead-set on the Plan, and what Durkon expected Redcloak to do at the very table.

Durkon's "it can't hurt to try" and "Thor wants me to" juxtaposed with Redcloak's "Yeah, I figured the gods would eventually send someone, but I was expecting someone taller."
But here's the catch as I see it: Durkon cannot honestly be said to be representing the gods. He can only (at best) represent Thor, who'd still have to sell any deal to the rest of them. Durkon had an uphill battle from word one.

She existed to give the Order a cleric back when Durkon was vamped, and now that Durkon is back , we need to find some way to remove her from the party. If it makes the stake

It appears to me that she also exists to act as a foil for Belkar's character growth.

[Worldsong]

Sooner or later Red Cloak is going to have to deal with Xykon. If he is in fact rational and logical about it then he must have a plan for doing so. Accepting an offer to work with the other races from Durkon merely requires him to move up his timetable for destroying the lich. Oh, and abandon the Plan that has been a lifelong obsession for him.

Of course not every decision Red Cloak has made is irrational, just the most important ones.

Redcloak does have to deal with Xykon at some point, but I'd call it presumptuous to say that teaming up with Durkon under the current circumstances would have been the smartest way to go about it. Especially since accepting Durkon's offer wouldn't give him what he's aiming for, even if he did abandon the Plan and focus purely on giving goblinoids a better life.

Just to make it clear, so far as I'm concerned Durkon's offer was bad. It wasn't even well thought out, his entire spiel came down to relying on goodwill and the suggestion that the Azurites aren't going to try and take back the city they don't have the resources or manpower to take back anyway. His offer might have worked if the two factions were on reasonable terms. Redcloak refusing the offer is fair game because he needs something more solid than merely an opportunity to talk with the PC races. The same way that the good guys don't trust Redcloak he has no reason to trust the good guys.

And it's not even like all the PC races or established nations are good guys.

[Jason]

Redcloak does have to deal with Xykon at some point, but I'd call it presumptuous to say that teaming up with Durkon under the current circumstances would have been the smartest way to go about it. Especially since accepting Durkon's offer wouldn't give him what he's aiming for, even if he did abandon the Plan and focus purely on giving goblinoids a better life.

If he has been rational and logical about it, then Red Cloak's plan for dealing with Xykon must involve only Red Cloak, and must be ready to execute as soon as they find the gate and complete the ritual. Since searching for the gate has been Team Evil's occupation since they left Gobbotopia, it must be already primed and ready to go as soon as Red Cloak decides to carry it out.
That's all assuming that Red Cloak is acting rationally.

Just to make it clear, so far as I'm concerned Durkon's offer was bad.

Yeah, I get that. You're right, it wasn't a great offer. But first offers in any negotiation are seldom great. What Durkon was really offering was a chance to be heard and negotiate with the leaders of the people who could give security to Gobbotopia, with his support as a high-level priest of Thor. His offer was really just to start negotiations. Red Cloak decided not to even try to have an honest negotiation with the leaders of the other races.

[Worldsong]

If he has been rational and logical about it, then Red Cloak's plan for dealing with Xykon must involve only Red Cloak, and must be ready to execute as soon as they find the gate and complete the ritual. Since searching for the gate has been Team Evil's occupation since they left Gobbotopia, it must be already primed and ready to go as soon as Red Cloak decides to carry it out.
That's all assuming that Red Cloak is acting rationally.

I believe The Giant has stated at some point that the ritual would take a while, and Redcloak might have based his plan around having that time. The point is that there's many potential variables and I don't think Redcloak has a kill switch for the moment he decides he doesn't need to put up with Xykon anymore. Of course the most rational course of action would be to abandon The Plan and run away from Xykon as quickly as possible, but just because Redcloak is irrational about his dedication to the Plan doesn't mean he can't make rational decisions within the confines of the Plan.

Also it's entirely possible that Redcloak's plan for dealing with Xykon is completing the ritual and making an attempt at killing Xykon once the ritual is complete... but with him having no complaints if Xykon kills him instead. The goal of the Plan is to complete the ritual and give the Dark One control over the Gate: destroying Xykon is not actually one of his primary objectives.

Yeah, I get that. You're right, it wasn't a great offer. But first offers in any negotiation are seldom great. What Durkon was really offering was a chance to be heard and negotiate with the leaders of the people who could give security to Gobbotopia, with his support as a high-level priest of Thor. His offer was really just to start negotiations. Red Cloak decided not to even try to have an honest negotiation with the leaders of the other races.

Under normal circumstances I would agree, but the circumstances aren't normal. Redcloak doesn't have the time for extended negotiations, and we can't assume that Xykon can just be brushed aside the moment he's no longer needed. Epic sorcerer lich is serious business.

Also it's an exaggeration to say that Durkon could arrange serious negotiations with the leaders of the other races. Durkon is acting in the service of Thor (and Loki kind of) and he's friends with Hinjo. That's it. That's all he has. That falls far short from what Redcloak needs. Yes they could maybe build up to the rest but that falls in the category of goodwill, trust and vague hopes from a single dwarf, whereas Redcloak needs something more concrete before he can say that it's a fair alternative to the Plan.

[Jason]

Also it's entirely possible that Redcloak's plan for dealing with Xykon is completing the ritual and making an attempt at killing Xykon once the ritual is complete... but with him having no complaints if Xykon kills him instead. The goal of the Plan is to complete the ritual and give the Dark One control over the Gate: destroying Xykon is not actually one of his primary objectives.

I agree that it may be "this might work, but if it doesn't then I will have still succeeded at the Plan even if Xykon kills me."
But destroying Xykon after the Plan is achieved is one of Red Cloak's primary objectives.

[CriticalFailure]

Rational reasoning and emotional motivation aren’t mutually exclusive. He can be fairly rational and still be influenced by emotion. In fact, I would argue that a lot of his story actually deals with how fuzzy the line between rationality and rationalization can be and how hard it can be to detect the subtle influence of emotion. imo just declaring Redcloak to be irrational and driven by emotion is missing the point.

[KorvinStarmast]

I believe The Giant has stated at some point that the ritual would take a while, and Redcloak might have based his plan around having that time.

Either a week or a couple of weeks, but I don't remember where he pointed that out. I think it was in comic after Azure City was conquered.

[dancrilis]

Either a week or a couple of weeks, but I don't remember where he pointed that out. I think it was in comic after Azure City was conquered.

Before actually, panel 7.

Edit: Which I suppose brings to mind a question I had a while ago, would it have been better for all concerned if Azure City had merely ceded the thrown room to Redcloak and Xykon, the ritual would be completed a while ago and depending on what it actually does a lot more people would still be alive.

[Anitar]

So, I've seen a lot of people looking for/theorizing about some kind of twisty twist regarding the search to find Kraagor's Gate. But all of those people have been concerned with where the gate is actually located, and right now I just thought of a different kind of twist.

By some method or another, the characters eventually find the gate. Only the gate. Nothing else. The rift is gone; the gate isn't binding anything anymore. That'd throw a "there's a planet inside the rifts"-sized wrench into everyone's intentions; and just like said planet, the surprise could be justified by the gods' inability to look through the gates and into the Snarl's jail-plane.

Just a thought. Plausible? I don't know. Interesting? Definitely.

[understatement]

I believe The Giant has stated at some point that the ritual would take a while, and Redcloak might have based his plan around having that time. The point is that there's many potential variables and I don't think Redcloak has a kill switch for the moment he decides he doesn't need to put up with Xykon anymore. Of course the most rational course of action would be to abandon The Plan and run away from Xykon as quickly as possible, but just because Redcloak is irrational about his dedication to the Plan doesn't mean he can't make rational decisions within the confines of the Plan.

Also it's entirely possible that Redcloak's plan for dealing with Xykon is completing the ritual and making an attempt at killing Xykon once the ritual is complete... but with him having no complaints if Xykon kills him instead. The goal of the Plan is to complete the ritual and give the Dark One control over the Gate: destroying Xykon is not actually one of his primary objectives.



Under normal circumstances I would agree, but the circumstances aren't normal. Redcloak doesn't have the time for extended negotiations, and we can't assume that Xykon can just be brushed aside the moment he's no longer needed. Epic sorcerer lich is serious business.

Also it's an exaggeration to say that Durkon could arrange serious negotiations with the leaders of the other races. Durkon is acting in the service of Thor (and Loki kind of) and he's friends with Hinjo. That's it. That's all he has. That falls far short from what Redcloak needs. Yes they could maybe build up to the rest but that falls in the category of goodwill, trust and vague hopes from a single dwarf, whereas Redcloak needs something more concrete before he can say that it's a fair alternative to the Plan.

Hmm. I think you've mentioned before that you hadn't read SOD, so for spoilers:

Spoiler: sod

Show

Redcloak tells his brother that their god will take care of Xykon when the time comes.

Durkon's not asking for an answer of "Yes" or "No" (and even if he was, he doesn't really have the clericpower to enforce it, so RC's not in peril or under duress). He's asking that Redcloak have this route of negotiations to haggle over, as a clear alternative to the plan. In essence (and what Jason said), saying yes to more negotiations.

Rational reasoning and emotional motivation aren’t mutually exclusive. He can be fairly rational and still be influenced by emotion. In fact, I would argue that a lot of his story actually deals with how fuzzy the line between rationality and rationalization can be and how hard it can be to detect the subtle influence of emotion. imo just declaring Redcloak to be irrational and driven by emotion is missing the point.

Seems about right, yeah. If I had to simplify it I'd say Redcloak's making rational decisions (in his mind) over something that wasn't a logical situation in the first place.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Which sorta makes me wonder 2 things: why Redcloak accepted the negotiations in the first place, if he was already so dead-set on the Plan, and what Durkon expected Redcloak to do at the very table.

Redcloak is Lawful. He follows the rules. And the Rules of Drama say there's always an attempt at negotiation before the final battle. Elan would be proud.

What did Durkon expect? Honestly, it pretty much looks like he just expected Redcloak to roll over at the first alternate option to The Plan. Showing again how bad his CHA is, because he doesn't get how people work at all.

[Jacky720]

Just to make it clear, so far as I'm concerned Durkon's offer was bad. It wasn't even well thought out, his entire spiel came down to relying on goodwill and the suggestion that the Azurites aren't going to try and take back the city they don't have the resources or manpower to take back anyway.

Let me repeat:

I know there are other issues with Durkon's offer, but consider this:
Do you think for one second that I'm not fully aware of what the Azurites will do to us to get their land back, the moment they have the strength to try?
So yeah, that is one of the things Redcloak wants.

As said before: Gobbotopia is crusade bait. If the Azurites cede the title, it stops being crusade bait. That is a concession that Redcloak wants.

Not being able to guarantee that concession is an issue, but by far not the largest one.

[Rogar Demonblud]

No, the Azurites ceding the city wouldn't make it Not Crusade Bait. It would just reduce the number of attacking parties by one. At this point, I'm pretty sure the other nations on the Southern Continent are busy absorbing chunks the hobgoblins haven't gotten to, and eventually someone is going to want that port.