OOTS #1213 - The Discussion Thread

[Jasdoif]

So, I've seen a lot of people looking for/theorizing about some kind of twisty twist regarding the search to find Kraagor's Gate. But all of those people have been concerned with where the gate is actually located, and right now I just thought of a different kind of twist.

By some method or another, the characters eventually find the gate. Only the gate. Nothing else. The rift is gone; the gate isn't binding anything anymore. That'd throw a "there's a planet inside the rifts"-sized wrench into everyone's intentions; and just like said planet, the surprise could be justified by the gods' inability to look through the gates and into the Snarl's jail-plane.

Just a thought. Plausible? I don't know. Interesting? Definitely.

Discarding everything interesting is not, itself, interesting. You'd need to build something sufficiently interesting/clever on top of the details of such a foundational change, in order to get a net positive there.

[CriticalFailure]

Redcloak doesn’t consider his own survival a priority. He’d like to be able to get rid of Xykon, but if they get the ritual off and then Xykon kills him, he considers it a win.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Regarding people saying that Durkon's offer isn't good/ Durkon can't actually offer stuff: Rich is taking huge shortcuts to fit something that could in reality require millions of words into a stick figure comic.

If Redcloak agreed with Durkons offer, what he'd really mean is "I agree to this deal, pending approvals of the Dark One, the majority of each of the three other pantheons, their heads, Hinjo, the majority of Azurite nobility, all nations bordering Gobtopia, and the elves.

Since we (presumably) don't want to see 200 strips of Durkon talking to Thor, talking to Odin, talking to Marduk, arguing the case to the pantheon, and godsmoot, gods talking to clerics, clerics talking to congregations; we just have to imagine that Durkon is actually empowered to speak for the rest of the world.

I don't think even Homestuck would be willing to go that far.

I still think the Gate isn't behind any of the doors at all, but instead behind a panel of stone in that valley, somewhere, that looks like every other piece of valley wall.

My guess is behind a panel in a wall in the dungeon, that looks like every other wall. That way somebody with lots of lower level minions can't exhaustively search it (Also, I'd imagine the bugbears have a pretty good idea of the area around the dungeon, having been hunting and gathering there for years), but still being possible for one strong party to miss.

[Worldsong]

I agree that it may be "this might work, but if it doesn't then I will have still succeeded at the Plan even if Xykon kills me."
But destroying Xykon after the Plan is achieved is one of Red Cloak's primary objectives.

Redcloak doesn’t consider his own survival a priority. He’d like to be able to get rid of Xykon, but if they get the ritual off and then Xykon kills him, he considers it a win.

Backing Critical's statement here. Xykon dead? Awesome. Redcloak dead? Doesn't matter, still won.

Hmm. I think you've mentioned before that you hadn't read SOD, so for spoilers:

Spoiler: sod

Show

Redcloak tells his brother that their god will take care of Xykon when the time comes.

Durkon's not asking for an answer of "Yes" or "No" (and even if he was, he doesn't really have the clericpower to enforce it, so RC's not in peril or under duress). He's asking that Redcloak have this route of negotiations to haggle over, as a clear alternative to the plan. In essence (and what Jason said), saying yes to more negotiations.

I just read all the spoilers. Heh.

As stated before (I believe) I concede that under normal circumstances Redcloak would have reason to accept the offer of continued negotiations, but he can't really afford that kind of thing right now. Xykon being a big obstacle, but also the fact that he'd want the Plan as backup in case the negotiations don't work out and the longer he delays the more chance the other side sabotages the Plan in a terminal manner.

That he wants to keep the Plan available is irrational in itself but within the mindset of the Plan being important it's rational to not want to give the opposition the time/opportunity to wreck it.

Rational reasoning and emotional motivation aren’t mutually exclusive. He can be fairly rational and still be influenced by emotion. In fact, I would argue that a lot of his story actually deals with how fuzzy the line between rationality and rationalization can be and how hard it can be to detect the subtle influence of emotion. imo just declaring Redcloak to be irrational and driven by emotion is missing the point.

Seems about right, yeah. If I had to simplify it I'd say Redcloak's making rational decisions (in his mind) over something that wasn't a logical situation in the first place.

As usual, I need other people to phrase things I can't put into words myself. Redcloaks overall goal of the Plan is irrational as hell but he can make rational decisions in pursuit of that goal.

Let me repeat:

As said before: Gobbotopia is crusade bait. If the Azurites cede the title, it stops being crusade bait. That is a concession that Redcloak wants.

Not being able to guarantee that concession is an issue, but by far not the largest one.

Redcloak's demands are more expansive than just wanting the Azurites to leave Gobbotopia alone. Also Durkon at best tells him that he stands a good chance of convincing Hinjo, the leader of the Azurites, to acknowledge Gobbotopia. As someone else has already pointed out, even if that succeeds that doesn't mean Gobbotopia is safe.

Just because the other side is willing to give you one thing you want doesn't mean you should throw everything else aside.

Regarding people saying that Durkon's offer isn't good/ Durkon can't actually offer stuff: Rich is taking huge shortcuts to fit something that could in reality require millions of words into a stick figure comic.

If Redcloak agreed with Durkons offer, what he'd really mean is "I agree to this deal, pending approvals of the Dark One, the majority of each of the three other pantheons, their heads, Hinjo, the majority of Azurite nobility, all nations bordering Gobtopia, and the elves.

Since we (presumably) don't want to see 200 strips of Durkon talking to Thor, talking to Odin, talking to Marduk, arguing the case to the pantheon, and godsmoot, gods talking to clerics, clerics talking to congregations; we just have to imagine that Durkon is actually empowered to speak for the rest of the world.

I don't think even Homestuck would be willing to go that far.

If Rich wanted to tell us that Durkon is effectively speaking for the rest of the world he could have put it a little bit more bluntly. Durkon himself doesn't even believe he's speaking for the rest of the world: even if you were correct OOC-wise Durkon's behaviour wouldn't convey that to Redcloak, so Redcloak's decision would still make sense based on the assumption that Durkon has little to no executive power.

[pendell]

No, the Azurites ceding the city wouldn't make it Not Crusade Bait. It would just reduce the number of attacking parties by one. At this point, I'm pretty sure the other nations on the Southern Continent are busy absorbing chunks the hobgoblins haven't gotten to, and eventually someone is going to want that port.

Also, signing a peace treaty with the Azurites doesn't protect them from the Empire of Blood or similar countries. There are plenty of conquerors who need no justification to launch a war of aggression.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[dancrilis]

There are plenty of conquerors who need no justification to launch a war of aggression.

Which would be equality.

Redcloak's problem is he wants equality and to be protected - were nobody else is protected so that would not be equality, so what he wants cannot be delivered because it is internally inconsistent.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Also, signing a peace treaty with the Azurites doesn't protect them from the Empire of Blood or similar countries. There are plenty of conquerors who need no justification to launch a war of aggression.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I'm pretty sure the EoB lacks the resources for a transoceanic invasion. The Realm of the Dragon, however...

[Worldsong]

Which would be equality.

Redcloak's problem is he wants equality and to be protected - were nobody else is protected so that would not be equality, so what he wants cannot be delivered because it is internally inconsistent.

I wouldn't be surprised if Redcloak was willing to deal with something like the Empire of Blood making trouble for Gobbotopia. What seems to really rankle him is that, in addition to expansionistic empires, Gobbotopia would be in danger of attacks by otherwise peaceful nations who are motivated by the belief that the goblinoid nation must be destroyed because goblinoids are bad.

[Sebastian]

Redcloak does have to deal with Xykon at some point, but I'd call it presumptuous to say that teaming up with Durkon under the current circumstances would have been the smartest way to go about it. Especially since accepting Durkon's offer wouldn't give him what he's aiming for, even if he did abandon the Plan and focus purely on giving goblinoids a better life.

Just to make it clear, so far as I'm concerned Durkon's offer was bad. It wasn't even well thought out, his entire spiel came down to relying on goodwill and the suggestion that the Azurites aren't going to try and take back the city they don't have the resources or manpower to take back anyway. His offer might have worked if the two factions were on reasonable terms. Redcloak refusing the offer is fair game because he needs something more solid than merely an opportunity to talk with the PC races. The same way that the good guys don't trust Redcloak he has no reason to trust the good guys.

And it's not even like all the PC races or established nations are good guys.

Look, at the end it doesn't matter. I mean, yes, Durkon's offer was too little and poorly put out and everything you said, but even if all the gods of the three pantheons did appear and pinkie-promised to give Redcloak anything he wanted, he would have refused it, probably persuading himself that it was a trick, or that it was not enough, or some other rationalization.

Because if he get what he want without the Plan then everything he did, everything that happened to him, would have been for nothing.

[Jasdoif]

I'm pretty sure the EoB lacks the resources for a transoceanic invasion.

You don't think Tarquin has the resources for corpse-ships?

[RatElemental]

You don't think Tarquin has the resources for corpse-ships?

Depending on how far her wormholes can go, I think Tarquin would just have to call in Laurin again.

[Jasdoif]

I'm pretty sure the EoB lacks the resources for a transoceanic invasion.

You don't think Tarquin has the resources for corpse-ships?

Depending on how far her wormholes can go, I think Tarquin would just have to call in Laurin again.

Fairly sure Laurin's a resource for the Empire of Sweat, not the Empire of Blood; though.

[dancrilis]

I'm pretty sure the EoB lacks the resources for a transoceanic invasion. The Realm of the Dragon, however...

He has the resources for eight squadrons of hippogriffs - which seems to be more then Azure city had and they had ships for a transoceanic withdrawal, if he thought it was worth it he might try - but he still has to rest of the western continent to absorb.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Eh, tomato, tomato. Really, nobody on the Western Continent has resources to spare. If they did, they'd either conquer the neighbors or try and conquer the Elven Kingdom.

[Schroeswald]

Fairly sure Laurin's a resource for the Empire of Sweat, not the Empire of Blood; though.

I mean they'll probably swap nations soon enough, with Malack dead there's a decent chance Tarquin gets paired with Laurin next time.

[Jasdoif]

I'm pretty sure the EoB lacks the resources for a transoceanic invasion.

You don't think Tarquin has the resources for corpse-ships?

Depending on how far her wormholes can go, I think Tarquin would just have to call in Laurin again.

Fairly sure Laurin's a resource for the Empire of Sweat, not the Empire of Blood; though.

I mean they'll probably swap nations soon enough, with Malack dead there's a decent chance Tarquin gets paired with Laurin next time.

"The EoB has the resources for a transoceanic invasion, assuming the EoB has the resources for a transoceanic invasion" is pretty boring.

[bunsen_h]

It appears to me that she also exists to act as a foil for Belkar's character growth.

The quote that rings in my ears from "Goblet of Fire" is : "Kill the Spare!"

If I had to guess , the "spare" who will be killed is Minrah. She existed to give the Order a cleric back when Durkon was vamped, and now that Durkon is back, we need to find some way to remove her from the party. If it makes the stakes seem more real by killing off a character in the process, that's a bonus from a storytelling perspective.

Rich has stated that he wanted to bring another female character into the party to balance things out a bit better.

I don't believe that he's going to bring in another female character, then kill her to make things more "real". "Fridging" female characters is bad storytelling.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Also, the new character was added to help show the difference between the old characters in Book 1 and in Book 7. Minrah can't do that if she's dead.

[Worldsong]

Rich has stated that he wanted to bring another female character into the party to balance things out a bit better.

I don't believe that he's going to bring in another female character, then kill her to make things more "real". "Fridging" female characters is bad storytelling.

Agreed. If Rich brought in Minrah just to kill her as motivation for Durkon or whatever I'd lose a lot of respect for him.

Durkon already knows what is at stake. He's painfully aware of the cost of failure. The fact that his first attempt at persuading Redcloak failed so miserably should already be enough for him to realize that he needs to step up his game.

[Snails]

Even if we had never read SoD, why would we expect Redcloak to take the deal?

We, the Readers, would not.

Durkon's key mistake is assuming the genuine best interests of the goblins of Goblotopia would be a strong enough motivational factor to keep Redcloak willing to talk, until talking was clearly useless. His mistake is imagining that concessions to Goblotopia would at least keep Redcloak onboard for more talking. And while he surely understood that the case he laid out was less than perfectly and was missing a few key facets, Durkon could not imagine how Redcloak was already quite comfortable with the idea of throwing away so many goblin lives for a theoretical benefit to the abstract future of goblinkind. That is Durkon being Durkon.

Ultimately, Redcloak was only going to hesitate if he understood the Plan as likely to turn out lose-lose for goblinkind, rather than brilliantly win-win like he has been telling himself for years. But that would require him to believe some pretty fantastical information from a dwarf cleric he hardly knows. Even if he believes Durkon is not purposefully lying, it is not likely that he would accept that Thor can be trusted, especially when it is information that TDO is (too) conveniently incapable of confirming or denying.

The point of this scene is not how clever and persuasive Durkon is -- he played his hand better than I expected. The point of this scene is to give Redcloak one last chance to be tested: Are you willing to fight for a whole nation of living breathing goblins? Or are all those goblin lives just pawns for your high stakes gamble, a gamble you cannot honestly say you fully understand?

[Fyraltari]

I'd like to point out that nothing about Durkon's offer requires him dropping the Plan and kicking it away...just putting it "on hold," at the very least.

Yes it does. Once the Rifts are sealed the Snarl can’t get out until new Rifts form in thousands if not millions of years and Redcloak’s Ritua is pointless. A sealed Rift is not a threat to anyone.

Oh right, yeah. Xykon wasn't even mentioned in the negotiations at all.

Back to the original point made by Hatu, then Durkon truly couldn't have known the 'right' thing to say at all.

There are no right thing he could have done. Redcloak is not in this because he made a lucid assessment of the situation and calculated the odds of the goblins coming on top. He is in this because of a bundle of trauma, guilt and rationalization. Durkon just doesn’t have the emotional connection with Redcloak to nudge him off his course. He will see it through until he reach is goal or is forced to abandon it.

Which sorta makes me wonder 2 things: why Redcloak accepted the negotiations in the first place, if he was already so dead-set on the Plan, and what Durkon expected Redcloak to do at the very table.

Because he thought Durkon was there to negotiate a surrender from the gods. He thought the Plan had succeeded. And then the dwarf talk to him about doing something different.

The quote that rings in my ears from "Goblet of Fire" is : "Kill the Spare!"

If I had to guess , the "spare" who will be killed is Minrah. She existed to give the Order a cleric back when Durkon was vamped, and now that Durkon is back

Pretty sure the order didn’t need a Cleric back when Durkon was camped in addition to Hilgya who raised him she’s there because being a newcomer brings a change in dynamic to the party. Someone who isn’t familiar with their oddities, someone who only knows the new and improved Belkar, someone to give recaps to.

we need to find some way to remove her from the party.

If the Giant needed her out of the party he could have let her die in Firmament or simply not have her join the crew when they left.

I suppose it's possible they will both escape alive , and I won't feel sorry if they do. I want to see more Minrah! But I can't believe the clerics can take such an awful risk and not pay SOME consequence. A few damage marks which will be easily healed when they rest and regain their spells just doesn't seem like enough of a consequence.

How about the fact that Team Evil knows the Order is here now. Isn’t that consequence enough?

[Worldsong]

How about the fact that Team Evil knows the Order is here now. Isn’t that consequence enough?

Given how vehemently Pilgrim argued that death is the only reasonable end for Redcloak's story I'm starting to suspect that for some people death is the only consequence that counts.

[Hatu]

Seems to me like learning some of those unknowns, to hopefully identify what the heck Redcloak might (and might not) see as a bridge, would be more immediately helpful...and hey, Durkon made some headway there.

I believe that's exactly what I said: Durkon was good at building bridges, bad at the rest. (Particularly planning for failure at first.)

Look, at the end it doesn't matter. I mean, yes, Durkon's offer was too little and poorly put out and everything you said, but even if all the gods of the three pantheons did appear and pinkie-promised to give Redcloak anything he wanted, he would have refused it, probably persuading himself that it was a trick, or that it was not enough, or some other rationalization.

Because if he get what he want without the Plan then everything he did, everything that happened to him, would have been for nothing.

That's the heart of the issue, but I don't think it's a slam dunk that Redcloak would automatically turn such an offer down if it somehow happened. To me, it would come down to two things.

1) What does Redcloak think the Plan is for? We know he's never spoken to the Dark One. We know from Word of God that the Dark One sees control of the Gate as more of a deterent than a weapon; the very fact Redcloak listened to the parley suggests Redcloak understands that as well. But at the end of the day, does the Dark One want the Snarl as an ace in the hole to ensure negotiations tilt in his favor, or is intended as the very means to those negotiations (and could thus be traded away freely when the time came)?

If Redcloak thinks the Snarl is an ace, even honest negotiations wouldn't be enough to dissuade him; the offer would have to be so good there would be nothing left to negotiate for, otherwise he's running the risk of short-selling the Dark One. But if Redcloak thinks the point of the Plan is to get a bargaining chip, he might be willing to give up the Plan in exchange for everything he could think to ask for. Not that it would be easy to do so, because...

2) Is Redcloak only getting this offer from the gods because his plan is on the cusp of success? This, to me, is the key. If Redcloak thinks all his actions ultimately led to the deal, I think he could end the Plan and sell himself on a job well done. But if he can't convince himself of that, either because he thinks the Dark One would settle for nothing less than the power of the Snarl or because the gods insist that this could have been done at any time and has nothing to do with the chaos Redcloak has caused, then I think Redcloak would almost certainly reject their offer and stick to the Plan for the reasons everyone has long ago pointed out.

Interestingly, even though Durkon doesn't really know Redcloak's background, he almost wound up confirming the significance of Redcloak's efforts by accident. Sadly, he couldn't recognize the opportunity, so he backtracked and the moment was played mostly for comedy. But it would not surprise me if that ends up getting revisited at a later date.

-H

[understatement]

Yes it does. Once the Rifts are sealed the Snarl can’t get out until new Rifts form in thousands if not millions of years and Redcloak’s Ritua is pointless. A sealed Rift is not a threat to anyone.

? The Plan involves handing over Snarl power to the Dark One, which has nothing to do with the rifts on the Material Plane. Redcloak's Plan was still in use even when the other rifts had been sealed.

There are no right thing he could have done. Redcloak is not in this because he made a lucid assessment of the situation and calculated the odds of the goblins coming on top. He is in this because of a bundle of trauma, guilt and rationalization. Durkon just doesn’t have the emotional connection with Redcloak to nudge him off his course. He will see it through until he reach is goal or is forced to abandon it.

Yeah.

Because he thought Durkon was there to negotiate a surrender from the gods. He thought the Plan had succeeded. And then the dwarf talk to him about doing something different.

"The Plan succeeded?" How's that?

[Worldsong]

? The Plan involves handing over Snarl power to the Dark One, which has nothing to do with the rifts on the Material Plane. Redcloak's Plan was still in use even when the other rifts had been sealed.

The Dark One can't exactly get to the Snarl if the rifts to the Snarl's prison are sealed.

"The Plan succeeded?" How's that?

He figured that the reason Durkon came to talk to him was because the gods were willing to listen to his demands in exchange for him not using the ritual that would grant the Dark One the ability to unleash the Snarl on them.

From the beginning the Plan has been to use the Snarl to strongarm the gods into giving goblinoids better lives. As Hatu pointed out, if Redcloak considers the Snarl the means rather than the objective having the gods themselves show up to negotiate would mean that the Plan is working.

[Fyraltari]

? The Plan involves handing over Snarl power to the Dark One, which has nothing to do with the rifts on the Material Plane. Redcloak's Plan was still in use even when the other rifts had been sealed.

What? No! The plan is to give the Dark One the ability to move a Rift to any Palne of his chosing so that he can threatne the gods with unleashing the beast on their turf.

"The Plan succeeded?" How's that?

The Plan is to scare the gods into compliance. The discussion began with redcloak reveling in the belief that the Gods were afraid of his actions.

[understatement]

What? No! The plan is to give the Dark One the ability to move a Rift to any Palne of his chosing so that he can threatne the gods with unleashing the beast on their turf.

Crap, OK, I just rechecked SOD - you're right; it's about shifting the rift itself. (which begs the questionn - does sealing one rift mean sealing all the others, or would Redcloak have to do Thor's ritual four times?)

(I imagined you were enacting Wahlberg from The Happening, FYI).

The Plan is to scare the gods into compliance. The discussion began with redcloak reveling in the belief that the Gods were afraid of his actions.

He figured that the reason Durkon came to talk to him was because the gods were willing to listen to his demands in exchange for him not using the ritual that would grant the Dark One the ability to unleash the Snarl on them.

From the beginning the Plan has been to use the Snarl to strongarm the gods into giving goblinoids better lives. As Hatu pointed out, if Redcloak considers the Snarl the means rather than the objective having the gods themselves show up to negotiate would mean that the Plan is working.

Right, right. 1207 completely slipped from my mind.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Also, signing a peace treaty with the Azurites doesn't protect them from the Empire of Blood or similar countries. There are plenty of conquerors who need no justification to launch a war of aggression.

Then why do the empires of blood, sweat, and tears need to keep making up justifications?

People like Tarquin are exactly who Redcloak fears; people who abuse the causes of plight of the Azurites or the safety of the remaining southern demi-humans to clothe their naked desire for conquest.

The conqueror doesn't need to convince everyone of their lies, just cause enough doubt to cause good people to hesitate to stop them.

Or even just the idea that the conqueror believes what they say helps. "oh, we only want to conquer Azure city because it's held by those evil goblins, we would never attack other humans".

There's also a small but important minority of people like Gin-jun and Miko who care very much about law and very little about general humanoid life.

I mean they'll probably swap nations soon enough, with Malack dead there's a decent chance Tarquin gets paired with Laurin next time.

I'd say they should do five nations next, as the three they have are conspicuously large already.

Given how vehemently Pilgrim argued that death is the only reasonable end for Redcloak's story I'm starting to suspect that for some people death is the only consequence that counts.

Good thing Rich has been stingy with the resurrections and rewards in the hereafter, otherwise there would be no major consequences!

[Fyraltari]

Crap, OK, I just rechecked SOD - you're right; it's about shifting the rift itself. (which begs the questionn - does sealing one rift mean sealing all the others, or would Redcloak have to do Thor's ritual four times?)

Five. That wasn't clarified, but I would guess all of them at once. Gods be gods.

(I imagined you were enacting Wahlberg from The Happening, FYI).

Oh my goooooooooood.

[Jasdoif]

With so many unknowns and so much distrust already between him and Redcloak, the odds that this parley would end in a signed deal were always near zero. So the real goal should have been about building bridges and getting Redcloak to start thinking about the situation in a new way. That way the NEXT parley might actually have a shot.

Seems to me like learning some of those unknowns, to hopefully identify what the heck Redcloak might (and might not) see as a bridge, would be more immediately helpful...and hey, Durkon made some headway there.

I believe that's exactly what I said: Durkon was good at building bridges, bad at the rest. (Particularly planning for failure at first.)

Huh....The whole post read to me like you were expecting Durkon to do a better job of "building bridges", before knowing what he could build that would serve as a bridge; the knowledge of which seems like the most realistic thing Durkon could expect to take away here.

Of course, using a negotiation as a fact-finding mission is questionable at best; but if Thor hasn't answered communes before, I can't really fault Durkon for not going through the motions of pre-meeting divinations. To say nothing of Durkon's assessment of his own diplomatic abilities being more accurate than Thor's, though I could see how beings capable of manipulating reality might have difficulty recognizing wishful thinking.