OOTS #1213 - The Discussion Thread

[heroeric]

Redcloak is right: Goblins are going to have to fight for their place in the sun and, if they DO agree to negotiations, they have to be backed by effective guarantees, not mere promises.

After all, from his perspective in sod

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The last time the Dark One tried honest negotiation he was assassinated during parley. The humans/elves/dwarves will speak softly until they can safely kill the dark one, at which point status quo ante will resume

Respectfully,

Brian P.

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So I've seen previously some people claim that the Dark One has learned from his previous mistakes and that the reason why he created the plan but is that really true. I haven't actually read SOD so most of my information comes from what I hear other people say so I might be misunderstanding what actually happened but it sounds like one interpretation is that Dark One tried to get better treatment for goblins by creating a large army and trying to get the other races to listen to him through threats of force. And the other races might have assassinated him partly because the didn't like being threatened or couldn't trust him and expected that the goblin army would just dissolve without him.

This doesn't sound that different with his current situation with the other gods. He doesn't wish to negotiate if he doesn't have guarantees that they will listen to him(the goblin army/ the snarl).
And the other side not wishing to negotiate because of these threats or not trusting him and believe that they have a solution that makes his threats moot(assassinating the dark one/Destroying the world).

[Khaldun]

I’m curious to see how Redcloak interacts with Oona afterward. She may be fairly happy-go-lucky, but he’s literally talking about ending the world. She’s probably going to want answers.

Then what does Redcloak do?

I remember what the Giant said about Tarquin, where it’s what you do when the stakes are high that determines what truly matters to you (paraphrased).

Right now, it’s not COMPLETELY irrational to act as Redcloak has (it’s not the best idea, but it’s understandable given the information he has), but I think that some day soon, Redcloak’s going to have that fork in the road where he has to choose: the goblins he claims to be fighting for, or being able to tell himself he didn’t do anything wrong.

Then we will see what truly matters to him.

That day isn’t today though.

[Paula]

What happened to Durkon's original hammer? He said it was a family heirloom. I'd hate to think he lost it. Also, was it passed from his mother or his father?

[Fyraltari]

What happened to Durkon's original hammer?

Malack and Durkon* left it back at the pyramid.

[weckar]

Don't be difficult. The bugbears are stated to have lost a war for territory with the dwarves. That's what "no dwarves here to chase us away" implies. It may not have been a war with big battles, but it still gives the bugbears a real reason to look askance at strange dwarves who show up unexpectedly. Calling that racism is simply incorrect.
Also: you realize that rangers have class features that act as weaponized speciesism? And that this requires an evil alignment only when targeting your own species?

Depends strongly on the edition, that.

[snowblizz]

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So I've seen previously some people claim that the Dark One has learned from his previous mistakes and that the reason why he created the plan but is that really true. I haven't actually read SOD so most of my information comes from what I hear other people say so I might be misunderstanding what actually happened but it sounds like one interpretation is that Dark One tried to get better treatment for goblins by creating a large army and trying to get the other races to listen to him through threats of force. And the other races might have assassinated him partly because the didn't like being threatened or couldn't trust him and expected that the goblin army would just dissolve without him.

This doesn't sound that different with his current situation with the other gods. He doesn't wish to negotiate if he doesn't have guarantees that they will listen to him(the goblin army/ the snarl).
And the other side not wishing to negotiate because of these threats or not trusting him and believe that they have a solution that makes his threats moot(assassinating the dark one/Destroying the world).

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The Dark One when mortal amassed a goblin army that slaughtered it's way through human lands and then wanted to negotiate from a position of strength.

[danielxcutter]

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The Dark One when mortal amassed a goblin army that slaughtered it's way through human lands and then wanted to negotiate from a position of strength.

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Well yeah, because their lives sucked and they wanted a better lot in life. Even if the gods didn't explicitly make the goblinoids as XP fodder for their clerics, it's hard to argue that they weren't in a position where the PC races could kill them at their leisure and often did.

Also, do you mean he should have bargained from a position of weakness? They wouldn't have bothered with assassination, they would just have crushed him outright I imagine.

I don't disagree that conquest and war is a bad thing, sure. But he was trying to better the lives of goblinkind and they assassinated him under the pretense of a peace talk.

[understatement]

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The Dark One when mortal amassed a goblin army that slaughtered it's way through human lands and then wanted to negotiate from a position of strength.

Spoiler: SOD

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Actually, the text explicitly calls out that the Dark One didn't have his army attack the humans (and presumably other demihumans). The slaughter started after he was assassinated at peace talks.

[Sebastian]

I believe that's exactly what I said: Durkon was good at building bridges, bad at the rest. (Particularly planning for failure at first.)



That's the heart of the issue, but I don't think it's a slam dunk that Redcloak would automatically turn such an offer down if it somehow happened. To me, it would come down to two things.

1) What does Redcloak think the Plan is for? We know he's never spoken to the Dark One. We know from Word of God that the Dark One sees control of the Gate as more of a deterent than a weapon; the very fact Redcloak listened to the parley suggests Redcloak understands that as well.

But at the end of the day, does the Dark One want the Snarl as an ace in the hole to ensure negotiations tilt in his favor, or is intended as the very means to those negotiations (and could thus be traded away freely when the time came)?

If Redcloak thinks the Snarl is an ace, even honest negotiations wouldn't be enough to dissuade him; the offer would have to be so good there would be nothing left to negotiate for, otherwise he's running the risk of short-selling the Dark One. But if Redcloak thinks the point of the Plan is to get a bargaining chip, he might be willing to give up the Plan in exchange for everything he could think to ask for. Not that it would be easy to do so, because...

2) Is Redcloak only getting this offer from the gods because his plan is on the cusp of success? This, to me, is the key. If Redcloak thinks all his actions ultimately led to the deal, I think he could end the Plan and sell himself on a job well done. But if he can't convince himself of that, either because he thinks the Dark One would settle for nothing less than the power of the Snarl or because the gods insist that this could have been done at any time and has nothing to do with the chaos Redcloak has caused, then I think Redcloak would almost certainly reject their offer and stick to the Plan for the reasons everyone has long ago pointed out.

Interestingly, even though Durkon doesn't really know Redcloak's background, he almost wound up confirming the significance of Redcloak's efforts by accident. Sadly, he couldn't recognize the opportunity, so he backtracked and the moment was played mostly for comedy. But it would not surprise me if that ends up getting revisited at a later date.

-H

I think Redcloak accepted the discussion because he is not completely irrational. He is not willing to accept any deal but he must rationalize it to itself first. To say, even just to himself "see. I am being reasonable. I have accepted a parley" and the reason he break parley and tried to kill Durkon is because the deal started to sound almost as if it could be acceptable (with some work), so he had to end it, and immediately started to work on how to rationalize his own decision. "How many goblins did you kill personally?"

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But Redcloak is irrational. Durkon just said to him that the gods need TDO to fix the snarl problem once and for all. That would give his god a bargaining power even greater that what the Plan would give him. and Redcloack obviously believed him, because he is saying that even if the gods destroy the world they will need TDO to make the new one, so his god will still win.

Redcloak essentially is saying that the Plan is become useless, but he still want to go on with it.

[KorvinStarmast]

Hmm, what spell was Durkon casting on himself in panel 4?

Something to heal after Redcloak's attack on him, or a prep to "get the heck outta here" of some kind?

[Fyraltari]

Healing. His wound markers are gone.

[Paleomancer]

I think Redcloak accepted the discussion because he is not completely irrational. He is not willing to accept any deal but he must rationalize it to itself first. To say, even just to himself "see. I am being reasonable. I have accepted a parley" and the reason he break parley and tried to kill Durkon is because the deal started to sound almost as if it could be acceptable (with some work), so he had to end it, and immediately started to work on how to rationalize his own decision. "How many goblins did you kill personally?"

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But Redcloak is irrational. Durkon just said to him that the gods need TDO to fix the snarl problem once and for all. That would give his god a bargaining power even greater that what the Plan would give him. and Redcloack obviously believed him, because he is saying that even if the gods destroy the world they will need TDO to make the new one, so his god will still win.

Redcloak essentially is saying that the Plan is become useless, but he still want to go on with it.

Logic is only as good as its foundation (rubbish in, rubbish out). If one's premises are based on suspect, flawed, or incorrect information, any subsequent reasoning is similarly impacted.

Redcloak bases his entire plan on a set of premises whose validity is mixed at best. The ONLY premise of his that is not suspect is that Goblinoids are subject to appalling speciesism (and even then, he seems to argue that no other species could possibly experience this, on a world where "flesh-and-blood demons eat people" on a regular basis, not to mention the whole "orcs are fine" thing... Because they are less likely to be killed. Hurrah, they should be so happy... /s). Even his claim that the Gods don't care about goblins is flawed, since he also presumes they care about other mortals, and it has been emphasized in-comic that the majority of OotS deities don't. It makes sense to him (and is reinforced by the emotional support it gives to his denialism of his own flaws), but that hardly means he has actually given "the Plan" full consideration. I think somewhere someone had suggested he has become like Miko; I strongly concur.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Oona is pretty cool.
Team Evil needed some female representation.
Too bad Tsukiko bit the bullet and Revenant Miko never came to pass.
Revenant Miko would have been an awesome antagonist.

No... Revenant Miko would not be awesome. Miko, like Redcloak, and Nale, and Xykon is an idiot, and not funny buffoon idiots, actual brainless, don't learn, keep getting dumber idiots. Xykon being this is fine, it is his fatal flaw that helps be his undoing, the rest keep doing things that make their lives, the lives of those they claim to represent or lead worse, and when given the chance to make the smart decision, they choose dumb again. Redcloak is doing it now, instead of taking the sweet offer to save his people, get his deity a seat at the table, and become the single most influential High Priest on the planet himself, he chooses to cast his lot with Xykon again despite repeatedly seeing how stupid Xykon is. We don't need more idiocy.

[Metastachydium]

But Redcloak is irrational. Durkon just said to him that the gods need TDO to fix the snarl problem once and for all. That would give his god a bargaining power even greater that what the Plan would give him. and Redcloack obviously believed him, because he is saying that even if the gods destroy the world they will need TDO to make the new one, so his god will still win.

Redcloak essentially is saying that the Plan is become useless, but he still want to go on with it.

Logic is only as good as its foundation (rubbish in, rubbish out). If one's premises are based on suspect, flawed, or incorrect information, any subsequent reasoning is similarly impacted. […]
I think somewhere someone had suggested he has become like Miko; I strongly concur.

No... Revenant Miko would not be awesome. Miko, like Redcloak, and Nale, and Xykon is an idiot, and not funny buffoon idiots, actual brainless, don't learn, keep getting dumber idiots. Xykon being this is fine, it is his fatal flaw that helps be his undoing, the rest keep doing things that make their lives, the lives of those they claim to represent or lead worse, and when given the chance to make the smart decision, they choose dumb again. Redcloak is doing it now, instead of taking the sweet offer to save his people, get his deity a seat at the table, and become the single most influential High Priest on the planet himself, he chooses to cast his lot with Xykon again despite repeatedly seeing how stupid Xykon is. We don't need more idiocy.

You people keep making the same mistake over and over again: you seem to keep assuming that Redcloak knows what the readers do, and he just ignores this knowledge. Durkon's offer is not a good one and not a „sweet deal”. Taking it would make absolutely no sense whatsoever from Redcloak's perspective. Durkon is his enemy and he has been his enemy for quite some time. He actively works on thwarting the Plan and Redcloak knows that. The Order, Durkon's party and Redcloak with his allies have fought twice and the Order destroyed a third Gate before Team Evil got there and Redcloak knows that too. His party is close by, ready to try and thwart the Plan again. Redcloak knows that for certain as well, because Durkon was dumb enough to tell him.
Now, this enemy of his walks up to him, claiming he is an emissary of the gods or a god, at any rate, sent to negotiate. He presents a useless deal (the Gobbotopia goblinoids get to keep most of what they already have; Durkon will try to help convince some of their enemies to agree to what might be no more than an armistice; the rest of the goblinoid species is left at the mercy of their old enemies), making clear that it was not pre-approved by the human nation he claims will agree to make peace with Gobbotopia and that it does not have the aprrobation of the god he has purportedly sent him and it is not guaranteed that anyone else (gods or mortals) will ever get on board with it. He also claims the gods have something much better than the Plan to offer, but he does not seem to know or understand what it is, exactly (if it even exists). He also claims that the gods don't really agree on anything ever, so it is useless to talk to them, but they somehow all agree that the world should end tomorrow (mind you: Redcloak was not present at the Godsmoot and knows nothing about the stupid god rules).
So, all in all, what Redcloak sees is as folows:
1. a known, old enemy he has no reason to trust;
2. who does not seem to speak on behalf of the gods but claims to;
3. wants to sell him table scraps;
4. which come with no guarantees;
5. but he must accept because the gods are petty, stupid, selfish and divided on everything;
6. but they will suddenly get past their differences to destroy the world real soon;
7. and they have something really good to offer Big Purple anyway if he quits now;
8. even if their emissary cannot explain with any semblance of coherence what it is;
9. so he must abandon the Plan now;
10. which would be really convenient for his enemy.
And somehow, the reasonable option would be for him to say ”yes to all”.
Also, if he refuses to do the „reasonable” thing (which objectively does not make much sense from his perspective), he is worse than Miko, who killed her liege, had her powers revoked for that and immediately started spouting theories that contradicted each other to prove that her fallen status means she is the gods' chosen not long before she stupidly blew up a Gate, thus indirectly helping the bad guys despite the fact that looking around in the room or just stopping for just a split second to listen to the very founder of her organization should have made it clear for her that what she does is counter-productive (i.e. she could have verified the validity of her assessment but she didn't) because she convinced herself that she was chosen to do so.

[danielxcutter]

That's because people either hate Redcloak and thus believe they want him to be wrong, or they don't care about Redcloak's grievances about how his species is discriminated against and/or are uncomfortable because it has obvious RL parallels and thus hate him.

[dancrilis]

That's because people either hate Redcloak and thus believe they want him to be wrong, or they don't care about Redcloak's grievances about how his species is discriminated against and/or are uncomfortable because it has obvious RL parallels and thus hate him.

My own one is that his grievances are misdirected and should be directed to The Dark One.

Still kindof hope that he gets a pseudo happy ending - teaching chemistry in Gobbotopia or similiar.

[Riftwolf]

Been a while since I read SoD, so forgive me if I've got the facts wrong, but

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isn't Redcloaks assertion that goblins get killed on sight when entering human villages countered by the fact his brother was in a peaceful goblin settlement that interacted with a nearby human village?

Again, I think Redcloak is fighting for the concept of goblins rather than the actual goblins.

[dancrilis]

Been a while since I read SoD, so forgive me if I've got the facts wrong, but

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isn't Redcloaks assertion that goblins get killed on sight when entering human villages countered by the fact his brother was in a peaceful goblin settlement that interacted with a nearby human village?

Again, I think Redcloak is fighting for the concept of goblins rather than the actual goblins.

It to an extend is, it is also somewhat countered as hobgoblins operate the same way to halflings (panel 6).

[pendell]

Spoiler: SOD

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Actually, the text explicitly calls out that the Dark One didn't have his army attack the humans (and presumably other demihumans). The slaughter started after he was assassinated at peace talks.

As I recall, what we saw was "crayon", which means that everything Redcloak knows about the interactions the Dark One had with other races during his mortal life was revealed to him by the Dark One himself.

For my part, I suspect that everything we saw in that vision was true .. but it wouldn't surprise me at all if the Dark One wasn't revealing the entire story. It may be that he played up the perfidy of the other races while putting himself in the best light possible.

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In other words, killing him in the middle of parley might very well have been justified -- if , for example, the Dark One had threatened his negotiators or otherwise made it plain that he was an unreasoning conqueror himself.

The spoilery bit is speculation. But I am still unwilling to render a verdict on exactly what happened back then based solely on the Dark One's own testimony. He is an evil god, after all, but even the good gods in OOTSverse don't tell their worshippers everything.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Worldsong]

Gotta agree with Metastachydium and Danielxcutter. Calling Durkon's offer 'sweet' is just trying too hard to portray everything Redcloak does as wrong in every way.

[bunsen_h]

Still kindof hope that he gets a pseudo happy ending - teaching chemistry in Gobbotopia or similiar.

How about his being elevated to Goblinoid demigodhood?

[Larsaan]

As I recall, what we saw was "crayon", which means that everything Redcloak knows about the interactions the Dark One had with other races during his mortal life was revealed to him by the Dark One himself.

For my part, I suspect that everything we saw in that vision was true .. but it wouldn't surprise me at all if the Dark One wasn't revealing the entire story. It may be that he played up the perfidy of the other races while putting himself in the best light possible.

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In other words, killing him in the middle of parley might very well have been justified -- if , for example, the Dark One had threatened his negotiators or otherwise made it plain that he was an unreasoning conqueror himself.

The spoilery bit is speculation. But I am still unwilling to render a verdict on exactly what happened back then based solely on the Dark One's own testimony. He is an evil god, after all, but even the good gods in OOTSverse don't tell their worshippers everything.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Yes, thank you. So many people here take the (for lack of a better term) "general goblinoid backstory" for granted, when we really only have TDO's word for what happened - and he has every reason to not present a truthful picture. Let's be real, he'd hardly be the first Lawful Evil deity in a D&D setting to lie to his followers.

We've yet to see any indication that he cares for anything but power. I mean, the afterlife for his followers is literally just his giant personal army, what does that say about him? It didn't even look like the fun bar brawl kind of army, like what Einherjar get.

[danielxcutter]

What have we literally just said about people looking for any reason they get to hate Redcloak and spit on his goals?

[Worldsong]

What have we literally just said about people looking for any reason they get to hate Redcloak and spit on his goals?

Let's be fair, it's not like us pointing it out is going to make it stop happening.

[understatement]

In a narrative vacuum of how goblins came to be, so far only the Dark One has information on it. It's possible he's lying. It's also -- and get ready for this mindblowing relevation -- that he might be telling the truth, because let's be honest: the gods collectively absolutely possess that much callousness.

What have we literally just said about people looking for any reason they get to hate Redcloak and spit on his goals?

Let's be fair, it's not like us pointing it out is going to make it stop happening.

But, um...Jirix stepped on a demon roach?

[Worldsong]

But, um...Jirix stepped on a demon roach?

Ah yes, stepping on roaches. Clearly the markings of an evil mastermind.

[Larsaan]

What have we literally just said about people looking for any reason they get to hate Redcloak and spit on his goals?

Let's be fair, it's not like us pointing it out is going to make it stop happening.

Welcome to the wonderful world of disagreeing about characters and their motivations. Have a commemorative t-shirt.

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Note, I'm not making a statement about all goblins everywhere. I'm just saying, I'm on Team Right-Eye here.

[dancrilis]

... so far only the Dark One has information on it.

Gained from where - The Dark One was not present at the creation of the world, he could be lying, wrong, lied to, etc maybe even honest and correct - but in the absence of evidence that Goblins are more mistreated then others I am not going to buy into the story of woe just yet.

[understatement]

Gained from where - The Dark One was not present at the creation of the world, he could be lying, wrong, lied to, etc maybe even honest and correct - but in the absence of evidence that Goblins are more mistreated then others I am not going to buy into the story of woe just yet.

Spoiler: SOD

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I'd say the Sapphire Guard "mistreated" Redcloak's village, yes.

Not to say that the Dark one is a paragon of goblin good, because he's not. But even

Spoiler: more SOD

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in Right Eye's final speech, where he is meant to be in the right, he doesn't question TDO's information - just his intentions.

[dancrilis]

Spoiler: SOD

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I'd say the Sapphire Guard "mistreated" Redcloak's village, yes.

Is that worst treatment then the Ogre tribe got at the hands of The OOTS (wiped out without discussion on the word of one human), or worse then the treatment that the Free City of Doom got at the hands or Tarquin and his allies, or worst then the captured citizens of Azure city got at the hands of the Gobbotopia, or worst then treatment that black dragons got at the hands of Vaarsuvius, or worse then the known fate of the Dwarves who die in their sleep, or worst then hobgoblins attacking halflings on sight, or worse then ...

Spoiler: sod

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... what the Paladin's in the fort in the forest got at the hands of Xykon, or worse then what Right-Eye's village got at the hands of Redcloak and Xykon.

I didn't say that Goblins were not mistreated just that I am not really seeing them as obviously worse treated than effectively anyone else.