At tier 2, is the Bard better than the Wizard?

[Valmark]

The clear path rule is under spell casting. The familiar isn't casting the spell; only delivering it. The clear path rule would still apply to the wizard as the caster.

Don't get me wrong. Familiars have their uses. They just also have their limitations.

Oh, found it. Now I'm utterly confused by the fact that some spells require it and is mentioned in the spell description and some don't say it in the spell description, but that's irrilevant to the topic. Regardless, you're right then.

An owl flying indoors, and shining as brightly as a nice cool tone LED bulb, is an invitation for the Familiar to get shot, no matter where you are.

A wizard can just cast Light again removing the one on the familiar just like someone can snuff out a torch (nevermind that above something else was pointed out that makes it not work apparently).

[Satori01]

An Owl Familiar has AC 11 and 1 HP and a +3 Stealth.
The Light spell shines bright light in a 20' radius and dim light for an additional 20' radius.

Everything in the area knows something is coming.

If the Wizard cancels the Light spell, the Owl Familiar still has a woeful +3 to Stealth, and an 11 AC preventing whatever lurks out in the immediate area, from killing it.

I don't think it is a stretch of the truth to say, this is a grim situation for the owl familiar.

[Valmark]

An Owl Familiar has AC 11 and 1 HP and a +3 Stealth.
The Light spell shines bright light in a 20' radius and dim light for an additional 20' radius.

Everything in the area knows something is coming.

If the Wizard cancels the Light spell, the Owl Familiar still has a woeful +3 to Stealth, and an 11 AC preventing whatever lurks out in the immediate area, from killing it.

I don't think it is a stretch of the truth to say, this is a grim situation for the owl familiar.

And a 60 ft. Flying speed with Flyby.

[MaxWilson]

An Owl Familiar has AC 11 and 1 HP and a +3 Stealth.
The Light spell shines bright light in a 20' radius and dim light for an additional 20' radius.

Everything in the area knows something is coming.

If the Wizard cancels the Light spell, the Owl Familiar still has a woeful +3 to Stealth, and an 11 AC preventing whatever lurks out in the immediate area, from killing it.

I don't think it is a stretch of the truth to say, this is a grim situation for the owl familiar.

And a 60 ft. Flying speed with Flyby.

Potato, potawto.

The whole point of using an owl instead of a PC is that it's immortal and relatively cheap to re-summon if it dies, as well as being reasonably stealthy (especially in the dark where other monsters are taking -5 to their passive Perception vision rolls) and mobile. If we take a concrete situation like "a cavern full of eight Gricks and an Alpha Grick, and the Alpha Grick is sleeping right by the entrance the owl will come in" I suspect you're both going to basically agree on whether or not the Owl is likely to get out of there alive.

The disagreement is just over how likely such situations are, and whether the benefit of sending the owl in exceeds the cost of resummoning it. And THAT benefit in turn depends on whether you're running a wargaming game where PCs have reason to strive to keep themselves alive against whatever happens to be in the dungeon, or a roleplaying tour where the DM is responsible for keeping the PCs alive so they can continue to perform amusing antics and develop relationships with each other.

So, Satori and Valmark, maybe it would help if you talked about your DMing style, or your DM's DMing style. Say it's an 8th level party in a dungeon crawl. What is that Owl likely to encounter in its scouting, and what would you expect to happen to the PCs against those monsters if no scouting is conducted? Is TPK ever on the table?

[Valmark]

Potato, potawto.

The whole point of using an owl instead of a PC is that it's immortal and relatively cheap to re-summon if it dies, as well as being reasonably stealthy (especially in the dark where other monsters are taking -5 to their passive Perception vision rolls) and mobile. If we take a concrete situation like "a cavern full of eight Gricks and an Alpha Grick, and the Alpha Grick is sleeping right by the entrance the owl will come in" I suspect you're both going to basically agree on whether or not the Owl is likely to get out of there alive.

The disagreement is just over how likely such situations are, and whether the benefit of sending the owl in exceeds the cost of resummoning it. And THAT benefit in turn depends on whether you're running a wargaming game where PCs have reason to strive to keep themselves alive against whatever happens to be in the dungeon, or a roleplaying tour where the DM is responsible for keeping the PCs alive so they can continue to perform amusing antics and develop relationships with each other.

So, Satori and Valmark, maybe it would help if you talked about your DMing style, or your DM's DMing style. Say it's an 8th level party in a dungeon crawl. What is that Owl likely to encounter in its scouting, and what would you expect to happen to the PCs against those monsters if no scouting is conducted? Is TPK ever on the table?

The owl could run away at 120 ft. of speed without triggering AoOs, so it could indeed survive.

I've honestly never been in a group where not playing at least a bit smartly didn't mean a variable number of PCs deaths or at least an intensive consume of resources aside from that time we had an inexpert DM with like, 8 PCs so there was hardly a threat (the DM insisted on all those people playing, and we had fun, so no problem but it was a rare case). So a disposable scout with reasonably good scouting and get away abilities is definitely useful. Especially with jerk DMs (I've had a few like one dropping a beholder who couldn't be spotted with a 30 because "it was behind a wall" on the lone scout. Didn't survive the surprise round)

Even if it doesn't get that bad (I know I hate killing players when I DM, and try to make it so that it's a very low possibility), a Tiny animal possibly flying "reusable" is always going to be useful- I'm not saying it's universally better then a PC scouting ahead, obviously, but often it'll be preferable to send that one. Regardless of wether it can pass as a standard animal or not.

...yeah, I've avoided talking about what they might find because I don't recall what is a challenge at that level specifically, but in my experience anything the manual has to offer and then some handmade ones (I usually use handmade monsters).

[MaxWilson]

The owl could run away at 120 ft. of speed without triggering AoOs, so it could indeed survive.

It couldn't escape though if the gricks wake up and ready actions instead of relying on opportunity attacks though. You could wind up in a scenario where the owl is cornered, flying madly around the ceiling, trying to stay out of reach of the gricks who are also crawling up the walls and ceiling trying to reach it, while a few gricks cover the exits with readied actions.

That would be a perfect time for the party to hit them--while they are all out of position and discombobulated from trying to catch the owl. You might even be able to get surprise.

I've honestly never been in a group where not playing at least a bit smartly didn't mean a variable number of PCs deaths or at least an intensive consume of resources... Even if it doesn't get that bad (I know I hate killing players when I DM, and try to make it so that it's a very low possibility), a Tiny animal possibly flying "reusable" is always going to be useful- I'm not saying it's universally better then a PC scouting ahead, obviously, but often it'll be preferable to send that one. Regardless of wether it can pass as a standard animal or not.

...yeah, I've avoided talking about what they might find because I don't recall what is a challenge at that level specifically, but in my experience anything the manual has to offer and then some handmade ones (I usually use handmade monsters).

Okay, so you play in a fairly deadly game where when an owl gets killed you're probably just going to sigh in relief and say, "Good thing that wasn't one of us!" and then go deal with whatever killed the owl. Right?

What about you, Satori?

[Valmark]

It couldn't escape though if the gricks wake up and ready actions instead of relying on opportunity attacks though. You could wind up in a scenario where the owl is cornered, flying madly around the ceiling, trying to stay out of reach of the gricks who are also crawling up the walls and ceiling trying to reach it, while a few gricks cover the exits with readied actions.

That would be a perfect time for the party to hit them--while they are all out of position and discombobulated from trying to catch the owl. You might even be able to get surprise.

Okay, so you play in a fairly deadly game where when an owl gets killed you're probably just going to sigh in relief and say, "Good thing that wasn't one of us!" and then go deal with whatever killed the owl. Right?

What about you, Satori?

Either that or we go "Nope, not worth it, f*** this". This actually happened when we found a dragon under a trapdoor for... Absolutely no reason whatsoever (It was bigger then the only entrance/exit so it made literally no sense and we left it there).

[MaxWilson]

Either that or we go "Nope, not worth it, **** this". This actually happened when we found a dragon under a trapdoor for... Absolutely no reason whatsoever (It was bigger then the only entrance/exit so it made literally no sense and we left it there).

Sure, that's rational behavior.

[MrStabby]

Either that or we go "Nope, not worth it, f*** this". This actually happened when we found a dragon under a trapdoor for... Absolutely no reason whatsoever (It was bigger then the only entrance/exit so it made literally no sense and we left it there).

At my table they would deduce that it was an illusion, determine that it had been placed there to ward off low Int intruders and therefore there be treasure behind it.

[Ashrym]

I generally don't bother with either Mage Hand or Light. Mold Earth, Minor Illusion, Shape Water, Prestidigitation all come first for me. And generally two different damage options.

Mage Hand is generally accomplished by Unseen Servant which is a ritual and thus less resource intensive while Light isn't better enough than a Hooded/Bullseye Lantern to be worth picking up over alternative options.

Mage hand is quickly cast compared to unseen servant (wizards don't prep rituals normally) and readily available in the absence of gear. I see it get taken.

I did take light many times because I was using a shield so couldn't hold the torch or lantern at the same time but that's a lot less common.

I'm partial to a damage attack, shocking grasp to deny reactions, prestidigitation, minor illusion, and mold earth. I need a reason to take light.

[Satori01]

What about you, Satori?

Max, have you not been reading the thread? :)
I started posting about Familiars after it was suggested that casting a Light spell on an Owl Familiar is a good tactic for scouting.

It isn't, it negates all the Wisdom (Perception) advantages you described in the grick scenario. Flyby + 60' Move and Dash Action is great against melee attacks, but is a poor solution to the problem of a Longbow.

Owl, Owl Burning Bright ,(with Light), is a good distraction! (As I previously stated) Odds are the Familiar is going to die though.

Not all adventuring happens in darkness. Most games have at least a few hours of daylight, plentiful torches, and Continual Flame spells...to assume all scouting is done in pitch black conditions is a stretch for me.

More importantly sticking to just one form for the Familiar, is a waste of the versatility of the spell, and is a waste of the role playing potential of the fact that the PC wizard, has through the FF spell bound an immortal spirit of malleable form.
Always summoning an Owl, means you have Hedwig.

Mixing up the forms, means you have a spirit at your disposal, that defies normal D&D statistical conventions in it's base form...like the Spirit Totem summons for the Shepherd Druid.

Also, be-winged creatures flying indoors tend to attract attention, and generates questions like "How did that owl get in here?". Those are precisely the type of questions you don't want to be asked.

Seeing a rat or a spider indoors, might make one go "icky, gross", but may not draw as many questions as an owl flying around the high security wing of a prison the PC group is infiltrating.

FF as a Ritual, typically means recasting the Familiar on a Short Rest.

Familiars are great, but as the PC rise in level, their usefulness for scouting gets superseded by other options.....that seems fairly self evident, and a non-controversial position, to me at least. Which is why I just wrote it again.

[Valmark]

Max, have you not been reading the thread? :)
I started posting about Familiars after it was suggested that casting a Light spell on an Owl Familiar is a good tactic for scouting.

It isn't, it negates all the Wisdom (Perception) advantages you described in the grick scenario. Flyby + 60' Move and Dash Action is great against melee attacks, but is a poor solution to the problem of a Longbow.

Owl, Owl Burning Bright ,(with Light), is a good distraction! (As I previously stated) Odds are the Familiar is going to die though.

Not all adventuring happens in darkness. Most games have at least a few hours of daylight, plentiful torches, and Continual Flame spells...to assume all scouting is done in pitch black conditions is a stretch for me.

More importantly sticking to just one form for the Familiar, is a waste of the versatility of the spell, and is a waste of the role playing potential of the fact that the PC wizard, has through the FF spell bound an immortal spirit of malleable form.
Always summoning an Owl, means you have Hedwig.

Mixing up the forms, means you have a spirit at your disposal, that defies normal D&D statistical conventions in it's base form...like the Spirit Totem summons for the Shepherd Druid.

Also, be-winged creatures flying indoors tend to attract attention, and generates questions like "How did that owl get in here?". Those are precisely the type of questions you don't want to be asked.

Seeing a rat or a spider indoors, might make one go "icky, gross", but may not draw as many questions as an owl flying around the high security wing of a prison the PC group is infiltrating.

FF as a Ritual, typically means recasting the Familiar on a Short Rest.

Familiars are great, but as the PC rise in level, their usefulness for scouting gets superseded by other options.....that seems fairly self evident, and a non-controversial position, to me at least. Which is why I just wrote it again.

You talk about the problem of using a light as if it's a problem only for familiars. Also, I don't think anybody said that scouting is only done in broad daylight? Although it's obviously less effective if you want ti stay hidden. Speaking of which, a spider is going to attract way less attention then a PC too.

There's people who stick to the same familiar exactly for RP reasons so it's really a matter of opinions.

Last note, taking 10 minutes to remake the ritual is way less then a short rest and I've seen that matter plenty of times. Though it's obviously not a combat thing.

Yeah, I don't think I disagree with anything else, at least not when restricted to Wizards and Bards which is what the thread is about.

[Satori01]

Find Familiar has a 1 hour casting time. Find Familiar as Ritual takes 1 hour and 10 minutes.

Valmark, I think you write interesting posts, but here, I feel that perhaps you are trying to "win" a discussion, instead of absorbing what people are saying.

I brought up the point about spiders familiars being icky but not raising questions as to why it is where it is.

Arcane Eye, Clairvoyance, even Augury can provide scouting information of one kind or another without alerting the occupants.

[Valmark]

Find Familiar has a 1 hour casting time. Find Familiar as Ritual takes 1 hour and 10 minutes.

Valmark, I think you write interesting posts, but here, I feel that perhaps you are trying to "win" a discussion, instead of absorbing what people are saying.

I brought up the point about spiders familiars being icky but not raising questions as to why it is where it is.

Arcane Eye, Clairvoyance, even Augury can provide scouting information of one kind or another without alerting the occupants.

Oh wow, I got the casting time wrong by a lot. Wonder what I was thinking about. Yeah, my bad.

I don't think this is a discussion one can see in terms of winning or losing- people raise points or questions and those who disagree/have other opinions raise counterpoints or offer different points of view, and viceversa. At least, that's how I'm seeing this, it's not like there is something to gain from being "right" anyway.

[MaxWilson]

FWIW, I believe that Find Familiar and Invisibility are both more commonly-chosen spells for a spellbook than Arcane Eye, and yet familiar + Invisibility does approximately the same job as Arcane Eye. An invisible bat would be a pretty decent scout. (And of course a chainlock's Sprite is even better.)

[Satori01]

FWIW, I believe that Find Familiar and Invisibility are both more commonly-chosen spells for a spellbook than Arcane Eye, and yet familiar + Invisibility does approximately the same job as Arcane Eye. An invisible bat would be a pretty decent scout. (And of course a chainlock's Sprite is even better.)

An Invisible Inquisitive Rogue is even better. :)
While Forbiddance is by no means a common dweomer to encounter, certain areas will have it. Often times these will be important areas.

A single casting of Forbiddance can exclude Fey, Fiends and Celestials, so sometimes an Invisible Bat Familiar is just not a viable scouting option.

Arcane Eye also has no scent, makes no sound, and can't be detected by effects like Primeval Awareness and other creature detection powers.

Every Diviner Wizard, I have seen in play..(3 in this case), have taken Arcane Eye.
YMMV of course.

Valmark, I do appreciate the points you raise, in this thread and others.
Just, thought that sentiment bore repeating. :)

Come November, when the Bard can likely, swap a known spell for another spell on the Bard spell list every short rest...the Wizard spell list becomes less vaunted.

Having both Awaken and Planar Binding on a spell list, and a campaign that features Downtime, can lead to some interesting player actions....without the scribbing costs a Wizard has to endure to access their spell list. (Actually, the U/A might have had a cost associated for the daily swap...I vaguely recall).

A Chain lock Sprite Familiar does have a great Stealth modifier. It has nothing else, besides woeful damage and E.T.'s Heartlight...at DC 10. An Imp is CR 1...isn't a Sprite C/R 1/8th or so?

[Dork_Forge]

A Chain lock Sprite Familiar does have a great Stealth modifier. It has nothing else, besides woeful damage and E.T.'s Heartlight...at DC 10. An Imp is CR 1...isn't a Sprite C/R 1/8th or so?

Specifically Sprite vs Imp in a scouting role, the sprite has both better stealth and perception than the Imp whilst retaining the invisibility (it also has the poisoned shortbow, but I don't really think that amounts to that much for scouting). The Imp brings a lot more to the table in basically every other area besides roleplay though.

[Valmark]

Arcane Eye also has no scent, makes no sound, and can't be detected by effects like Primeval Awareness and other creature detection powers.

A Chain lock Sprite Familiar does have a great Stealth modifier. It has nothing else, besides woeful damage and E.T.'s Heartlight...at DC 10. An Imp is CR 1...isn't a Sprite C/R 1/8th or so?

In another thread it was argued that Arcane Eye can be smelled, read 'has no scent' made me laugh so much xD

A sprite can turn invisible! Though I think out of all the choices a Chainlock has the sprite's the weakest (I'm considering flight-able invisibility-able only). Also 1/4 CR, still lower then the imp.

[MaxWilson]

Specifically Sprite vs Imp in a scouting role, the sprite has both better stealth and perception than the Imp whilst retaining the invisibility (it also has the poisoned shortbow, but I don't really think that amounts to that much for scouting). The Imp brings a lot more to the table in basically every other area besides roleplay though.

Sprite also has better AC (magnified by Invisibility disadvantage) and somewhat higher intelligence, but it loses out on Darkvision unless you cast Darkvision on it.

However, aside from the Darkvision, it's tough for me to see why you'd want an Imp at all. Isn't recon and communication the whole point of having a familiar? It's not like giving up your action to have an Imp attack is a good use of your combat action. (Honestly I think the Sprite attack is better in that at least I can imagine rare scenarios where you'd want to spend your action attempting to poison someone to inflict disadvantage, as a kind of surrogate Dodge to protect a wounded PC or offset Reckless Attack.)

[KorvinStarmast]

Non-darkvision race, maybe?

My vhuman warlock, yeah. But as often as not she casts light on the barbrians head band so that he can see to hit things, or has a light imbued coin in a pocket that she can toss into a room if need be.

And THAT benefit in turn depends on whether you're running a wargaming game where PCs have reason to strive to keep themselves alive against whatever happens to be in the dungeon, or a roleplaying tour where the DM is responsible for keeping the PCs alive so they can continue to perform amusing antics and develop relationships with each other.
---snip---
Say it's an 8th level party in a dungeon crawl. What is that Owl likely to encounter in its scouting, and what would you expect to happen to the PCs against those monsters if no scouting is conducted? Is TPK ever on the table?

I am having the damnedest time getting our level 8 party in a dungeon crawl to remember how important scouting is. We had a run in with 4 flame skulls who nova's a whole bunch of fire balls on the two who blundered around a corner - I had to use revivify for the first time in this campaign. (We got outta there, all said and done, thanks to the ranger dropping a fog cloud to cover our move) and are now pondering how we'll address that threat. We'll see how smart we got next time ...

I have now and again done the whole "I go deaf while owl scouts ahead after I cast guidance on the owl" schtick with my familiar, but until this most recent oops the party has started doing a lot of "we walk down the hall" and stumble over stuff.
Yes, I stay in the rear of the party by choice, now, why do you ask?

A bard's magical resources we have access to, but the player isn't that big on scouting so far.

[MaxWilson]

My vhuman warlock, yeah. But as often as not she casts light on the barbrians head band so that he can see to hit things, or has a light imbued coin in a pocket that she can toss into a room if need be.
I am having the ***est time getting our level 8 party in a dungeon crawl to remember how important scouting is. We had a run in with 4 flame skulls who nova's a whole bunch of fire balls on the two who blundered around a corner - I had to use revivify for the first time in this campaign. (We got outta there, all said and done, thanks to the ranger dropping a fog cloud to cover our move) and are now pondering how we'll address that threat. We'll see how smart we got next time ...

Time for illusion magic! Get the monsters to blow their nova on PCs who aren't really there. :)

Flameskulls are awesome.

[Dork_Forge]

Sprite also has better AC (magnified by Invisibility disadvantage) and somewhat higher intelligence, but it loses out on Darkvision unless you cast Darkvision on it.

However, aside from the Darkvision, it's tough for me to see why you'd want an Imp at all. Isn't recon and communication the whole point of having a familiar? It's not like giving up your action to have an Imp attack is a good use of your combat action. (Honestly I think the Sprite attack is better in that at least I can imagine rare scenarios where you'd want to spend your action attempting to poison someone to inflict disadvantage, as a kind of surrogate Dodge to protect a wounded PC or offset Reckless Attack.)

It's situational, you may want the Imp to scout because you're up against enemies that speak Infernal and the Imp has the chance to overhear things (likewise with Elvish and Sylvan for the Sprite or Draconic for the Pseudodragon), other than that the Imp is far more resilient. It has lower AC but more hit points, resistances and immunities. As for why you might want to attack with it, I could see maybe trying to provoke enemies to draw them off or maybe try and score some kind of damage if your familiar has been rumbled anyway (and the damage on the Imp is far superior). Attacking with a familiar in general will get a lot more appealing if that invocation for scaling comes out in Tasha's.

[KorvinStarmast]

Time for illusion magic! Get the monsters to blow their nova on PCs who aren't really there. :)

Flameskulls are awesome.

I don't think our wizard has any illusion spells beyond Phantasmal Forces; I'll ask the Bard what he's got. (Flame skulls have advantage on saves versus magic, so we'd need an illusion that requires an ability check)

[Valmark]

It's situational, you may want the Imp to scout because you're up against enemies that speak Infernal and the Imp has the chance to overhear things (likewise with Elvish and Sylvan for the Sprite or Draconic for the Pseudodragon), other than that the Imp is far more resilient. It has lower AC but more hit points, resistances and immunities. As for why you might want to attack with it, I could see maybe trying to provoke enemies to draw them off or maybe try and score some kind of damage if your familiar has been rumbled anyway (and the damage on the Imp is far superior). Attacking with a familiar in general will get a lot more appealing if that invocation for scaling comes out in Tasha's.

To add to this, the imp has Devil's Sight and Shapechanger to help its scouting.

I'm curious, which invocation is it?

[Dork_Forge]

To add to this, the imp has Devil's Sight and Shapechanger to help its scouting.

I'm curious, which invocation is it?

It's from the Class Features Variant, Investment of the Chain Master:

-The familiar gains a fly or swim speed of 40ft (your choice)
-The familiar no longer needs to breathe
-The familiars weapon attacks are considered magical for overcoming immunity and resistance
-If the familiar forces a creature to make a save it uses your save DC

It's a big old powerup in general for the familiar, but that last point makes the Imp far more appealing damage wise since it's save is worth 3d6 and this can come online at 3rd level. The Pseudodragon and Sprite become more appealing for the poisoned conidtion and knockouts (especially if you've got a lore Bard and/or a Diviner).