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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutazoia View Post
    Then there was the time a friend of mine mixed up the word Brassiere (pronounced Bra-Zir), and Brasier (pronounced Bra-zer). For a moment we all thought we had found the Temple of Militant Feminists lit by big piles of burning bra's.
    This happened to my group as well. Somebody spend a solid month thinking the party wizard was summoning a fire elemental out of a bra he kept suspended from his belt.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  2. - Top - End - #92
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    The correct pronunciation is Bruh-zeer vs Bray-zi-er. Also, it's spelled, Brazier.

    Unless, you know, you're not American.
    Just like I was talking about, Brazier and Brasier are alternate spellings and mean the same thing.
    "Sleeping late might not be a virtue, but it sure aint no vice. The old saw about the early bird and the worm just goes to show that the worm should have stayed in bed."

    - L. Long

    I think, therefore I get really, really annoyed at people who won't.

  3. - Top - End - #93
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutazoia View Post
    Let me tell you a little story that happened to me one fine evening. It's a true story and, although it didn't happen while playing D&D, I'm sure you'll see how it goes to show how not all "Gazebo Problems" are the fault of the GM.

    I work in a print shop (get all my printing for free, yo!). One evening, while at work, a young lady came in to have some fliers printed. Apparently there was some new law or ordinance that was pending and she was doing the leg work for a group at the local college that had something to say about it. Anyway, after printing her fliers, while ringing her up, I asked if she was going to be putting the fliers up on the columns around the campus (seeing if she needed to buy tape to hang them/make an extra sale):

    Me: So, are you going to be hanging these on the columns around campus?
    Her: What's a column?
    Me: ??? You know...columns...the things that hold up ceilings?
    Her: No...what's a column?
    Me: (pointing to the column in the middle of the store) Those things, right there. They hold up the ceiling in a large room?
    Her: (looking right at the frikkin column) No? What's a column?
    Me: They also hold up pavilions at the part?
    Her: What's a pavilion?
    Me: Your total will be $X.xx, have a nice day!

    Now some of you might think she was trolling me, but no...she honestly had no clue what a column or a pavilion was. And she was in college.

    Then there was the time a friend of mine mixed up the word Brassiere (pronounced Bra-Zir), and Brasier (pronounced Bra-zer). For a moment we all thought we had found the Temple of Militant Feminists lit by big piles of burning bra's.

    Depending on the region that a person comes from, they will have different linguistic references. You may say "Soda" and someone else will call it "pop". Both are correct, but the person using "soda" may never have heard of "pop" (or Soda-pop), and become confused. Everyone assumes that everyone else has the same frame of reference that they do, and use the same labels for things that they do.

    I take the Gazebo story with a HUGE helping of salt. Even the dumb girl from my first example stopped to ask what a column was. I can't imagine Eric not stopping to ask what a gazebo was.
    In your story, the GM speaker with the superior knowledge recognized the confusion, and attempted to clarify. So I don't think your story has the inevitable takeaway you intend.

    Also, I absolutely do not expect my players to metagame and ask what a Glabrezu is. Of course, I also don't call it by name unless the PCs should know what it is… at which point, perhaps confused players *should* ask if that's something that their characters should understand. Point is, in the oldschool gaming environment which birthed this story, asking for details about a Named Monster should not be *expected*.

    And don't get me started on college girls. The sheer "how could anyone but God comprehend that you have a 1-in-6 chance of rolling a given number on a (normal, d6) die?" level of confusion one gave in statistics class… just… I can't even.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutazoia View Post
    Let me tell you a little story that happened to me one fine evening. It's a true story and, although it didn't happen while playing D&D, I'm sure you'll see how it goes to show how not all "Gazebo Problems" are the fault of the GM.
    No, they're not necessarily the fault of the GM. However, the GM has the responsibility to correct them, since the GM's interpretation of the facts is authoritative (in most systems).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutazoia View Post
    Depending on the region that a person comes from, they will have different linguistic references. You may say "Soda" and someone else will call it "pop". Both are correct, but the person using "soda" may never have heard of "pop" (or Soda-pop), and become confused. Everyone assumes that everyone else has the same frame of reference that they do, and use the same labels for things that they do.

    I take the Gazebo story with a HUGE helping of salt. Even the dumb girl from my first example stopped to ask what a column was. I can't imagine Eric not stopping to ask what a gazebo was.
    Correct, and in most cases that's just a miscommunication and both sides should be aware and fix it.

    In RPGs, however, the difference is that since the GM is responsible for adjudicating actions, their opinion has the force of truth. And, as such, the responsibility lies more on their shoulders to ensure people understand their vision of what is going on.

    In reality, there is objective realilty, and subjective views - objective reality can be pointed out, and subjective views are all (effectively) equal. That's not the case in an RPG.
    "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutazoia View Post
    Depending on the region that a person comes from, they will have different linguistic references. You may say "Soda" and someone else will call it "pop". Both are correct, but the person using "soda" may never have heard of "pop" (or Soda-pop), and become confused.
    As an Australian English speaker who serves "Soft Drink" to his kids, American English is weird. You know that, right?
    I love playing in a party with a couple of power-gamers, it frees me up to be Elan!


  6. - Top - End - #96
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Duff View Post
    As an Australian English speaker who serves "Soft Drink" to his kids, American English is weird. You know that, right?
    All language is weird lol
    "Sleeping late might not be a virtue, but it sure aint no vice. The old saw about the early bird and the worm just goes to show that the worm should have stayed in bed."

    - L. Long

    I think, therefore I get really, really annoyed at people who won't.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Duff View Post
    As an Australian English speaker who serves "Soft Drink" to his kids, American English is weird. You know that, right?
    Soda is short for sodium carbonate, the stuff that makes it fizz. Pop is what the fizz bubbles do. What's "soft" about it?

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Imbalance View Post
    Soda is short for sodium carbonate, the stuff that makes it fizz. Pop is what the fizz bubbles do. What's "soft" about it?
    It doesn't have alcohol in it.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    wink Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Credence View Post
    It doesn't have alcohol in it.
    And why should your alcohol be hard? Let it thaw before consumption, I say!

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Imbalance View Post
    And why should your alcohol be hard? Let it thaw before consumption, I say!
    Alcoholic beverages are hard to drink. Beer is bitter, which is why college students chugging is a thing. Wine is tart, which is why it's served in a small glass and not even full. Vodka is stronger tart, which is why it's common to have it with orange juice (screwdriver) or tomato juice (bloody mary). Then there's rum and whiskey which are sometimes called hard liquor. The fizz of soda is reminiscent to how alcohol feels yet palatable and doesn't make you drunk.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    "Welcome to Dungeons and Dragons fifth edition, where the DCs are made up and the rules don't matter."

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    This is only a guess based on attempts to reconstruct an explanation post-hoc, but my guess is that "hard drink" being a term for alcohol is the origination point. That's not all, though: think about hard liquors and how people react when they slam them back. Especially people not used to them. That pained expression, the tears in the eyes, the sense they feel their throat seizing up.

    Soda carbonation has a similar effect if you slam it back too hard. Thus, it might feel similar in the throat to "hard drink." But it has no alcohol in it. Therefore, it's a "soft drink."

    That's based on my efforts at deduction, again. Not any historical etymological knowledge.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    ... And then there's 'water softener' ...

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    wink Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Alcoholic beverages are hard to drink. Beer is bitter, which is why college students chugging is a thing. Wine is tart, which is why it's served in a small glass and not even full. Vodka is stronger tart, which is why it's common to have it with orange juice (screwdriver) or tomato juice (bloody mary). Then there's rum and whiskey which are sometimes called hard liquor. The fizz of soda is reminiscent to how alcohol feels yet palatable and doesn't make you drunk.
    Beverages with varying difficulty? What game is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    This is only a guess based on attempts to reconstruct an explanation post-hoc, but my guess is that "hard drink" being a term for alcohol is the origination point. That's not all, though: think about hard liquors and how people react when they slam them back. Especially people not used to them. That pained expression, the tears in the eyes, the sense they feel their throat seizing up.

    Soda carbonation has a similar effect if you slam it back too hard. Thus, it might feel similar in the throat to "hard drink." But it has no alcohol in it. Therefore, it's a "soft drink."

    That's based on my efforts at deduction, again. Not any historical etymological knowledge.
    Lemonade, ginger beer, rosewater, etc. aren't called soft drinks, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhorn View Post
    ... And then there's 'water softener' ...
    There's a gazebo...

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Imbalance View Post
    Lemonade, ginger beer, rosewater, etc. aren't called soft drinks, though.
    Here in Australia they are. Well lemonade and ginger beer are. I've never seen rosewater.

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhorn View Post
    Here in Australia they are. Well lemonade and ginger beer are. I've never seen rosewater.
    I know where I am we have Lemonade and Hard Lemonade. I don't know if Lemonade is considered a soft drink, because soda has cornered the soft drink branding market. Sometimes "Coke" or "Cola" is used to mean Coca Cola, and other times it is used to mean any pop (ex: Pepsi).
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2020-09-29 at 11:27 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    I know where I am we have Lemonade and Hard Lemonade. I don't know if Lemonade is considered a soft drink, because soda has cornered the soft drink branding market. Sometimes "Coke" or "Cola" is used to mean Coca Cola, and other times it is used to mean any pop (ex: Pepsi).
    Coke pretty much invariably means Coca Cola here, but cola refers to that general flavor of soda. Root Beer is not cola, for example.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhorn View Post
    Here in Australia they are. Well lemonade and ginger beer are. I've never seen rosewater.
    Like someone above, I'm only speculating, but it seems the industry term became the more widely used in Australian vernacular while regions where the drinks were earlier introduced carried names that were more traditional from a time before the marketing told us what to call it. If I order a soft drink and am served a lemonade, I'll remember to check what part of the world I'm in before going full Karen. On the other hand, this frequent exchange at local eateries always amuses me:
    Server: And what would you like to drink?
    Me: Coke, please.
    Server: Is Pepsi ok?
    Me: Even better.

    Facetiously, how much alcohol is in hard water and what would you set the DC at? Can the sorcerer soften it with fire?

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    PirateWench

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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    "Lemonade" itself is a bit of a contentious term based on geography, if i recall correctly. In the US (or at least the parts I've lived in), it refers to a non-carbonated beverage made of lemon juice, sugar, and water; but my understanding is that in some other parts of the world, it more commonly refers to lemon-lime carbonated beverages such as Sprite (which in my corner of the world we would probably just call "Sprite", even if we were actually referring to 7-Up, Sierra Mist, or what have you. I guess "lemon-lime soda" if you're feeling particularly precise.)

  19. - Top - End - #109
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Imbalance View Post
    Facetiously, how much alcohol is in hard water and what would you set the DC at? Can the sorcerer soften it with fire?
    No alcohol in hard water. That is why it is so hard to get drunk on the stuff. DC 15 Wis save to disbelieve reality.
    A sorcerer can't soften it with fire, but they can harden it with fire. +1 AC and +1 Hardness per spell level.

  20. - Top - End - #110
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Fire water = hard alcohol?

  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    I don't know if Lemonade is considered a soft drink, because soda has cornered the soft drink branding market.
    Lemonade is a clear carbonated soda with a slightly lemony taste. Not sugar lemon water.

    Just like iced tea is nice and bitter. Not super sweet.

  22. - Top - End - #112
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Imbalance View Post
    Soda is short for sodium carbonate, the stuff that makes it fizz. Pop is what the fizz bubbles do. What's "soft" about it?
    Based on this link and a lifetime of Austalian living I have this theory...

    Beer is the default drink and requires no further explanation.
    Hard liquor is stronger, more powerful (hard like a boxer might be called hard) and more difficult to drink without extra additives.

    Soft drink is the opposite of hard


    https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/ed...%20combination.
    Last edited by Duff; 2020-09-29 at 10:50 PM.
    I love playing in a party with a couple of power-gamers, it frees me up to be Elan!


  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Lemonade is a clear carbonated soda with a slightly lemony taste. Not sugar lemon water.

    Just like iced tea is nice and bitter. Not super sweet.
    But are they hard?

  24. - Top - End - #114
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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Lemonade is a clear carbonated soda with a slightly lemony taste. Not sugar lemon water.

    Just like iced tea is nice and bitter. Not super sweet.
    Plenty of drinks that are not carbonated are called "lemonade" in my experience.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  25. - Top - End - #115
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Plenty of drinks that are not carbonated are called "lemonade" in my experience.
    Ditto. Lemonade is, in my part of the States, pretty much any lemon flavored drink made primarily with water. If its alcoholic, its hard lemonade. If its carbonated, it might be bubbly lemonade, or lemonade soda. If its lemon-lime, then its lemon-limeade, etc... but theyre all variants of just Lemonade.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  26. - Top - End - #116
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    HalflingRogueGirl

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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Also, probably worth noting that the US in general has a very odd habit of referring to things by the name of a specific brand of that thing, instead of a simple generic name. And not even always the same brand if you go to different parts of the country.
    All advice given with the caveat that you know your group better than I do. If that wasn't true, you'd be getting advice face-to-face. So I generalize.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?

  27. - Top - End - #117
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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Ditto. Lemonade is, in my part of the States, pretty much any lemon flavored drink made primarily with water. If its alcoholic, its hard lemonade. If its carbonated, it might be bubbly lemonade, or lemonade soda. If its lemon-lime, then its lemon-limeade, etc... but theyre all variants of just Lemonade.
    Yup. That's a USA thing.

  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    And don't get me started on college girls. The sheer "how could anyone but God comprehend that you have a 1-in-6 chance of rolling a given number on a (normal, d6) die?" level of confusion one gave in statistics class… just… I can't even.
    Think about having that same conversation with your game master...
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Yup. That's a USA thing.
    Online etymology lookups aren't being helpful in determining which usage if either is derivative.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: The Gazebo Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Think about having that same conversation with your game master...
    I regularly come across game systems that were clearly written without a basic knowledge of probability...

    (Or if that's not the case, then for example, they genuinely want the average PC to fail 2/3 or more of their rolls even where there was deep investment in the relative values...)
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

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