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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    I would think that varies from person to person, and from system to system. 3.5 required a lot of work to set up enemy NPCs, for instance, because you had to choose their feats, magic items, and spells if they were a spellcaster. It's definitely much quicker to just look up the bits you're unfamiliar with on a pre-made NPC than create your own.
    In 3.5 I just found a random npc generator on the web. Any time I needed npcs I'd set the class & level, crank out 15 or so, scan for a decent one and change a few feats or spells. There used to be lots of fan made utilities & time savers out there if you just went looking. There still may be but I'm not running games I really need it for any more.

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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Because a lot of prep time is necessary for a good adventure, and we all have regular lives that demand our time.
    Personally, I spend roughly / at least as much time preparing to run a module as I do my own content.

    Granted, that is because I functionally *rewrite* the module in my own format (has anyone noticed how *horribly* many modules are layed out, how much flipping one has to do to run them?), and run sample characters through either to try to familiarize myself both with the content, and with idiots that might arise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imbalance View Post
    So...what was the module?
    Ah, thanks for reminding me - I just recently a) found my notes, and b) started running a party through said module (having previously started writing a spoof about said module). And I had previously had a GM attempt to run this module before giving up.

    The module that prompted this inquiry is "Halls of the High King", by Ed Greenwood.

    The module is chock full of errors at all levels, and, going through the module, I filled up nearly a page of text just *describing* the errors for each page of the module. Those errors… eh, I'll spoil this "brief" overview (divided/ordered by roughly what level of "annoying" I found them) both for length, and just in case anyone actually plays 2e modules / converts them to newer systems anymore.

    Spoiler: Level 1 - eye roll logic / typos
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    Sure, there's typos, like the monster that deals "6.24” damage instead of 6-24 damage.

    Sure, you are given the quest by someone twice your level, with a bodyguard twice *his* level.

    Sure, "if the PCs don't do it, it doesn't get done (regardless of how many Uber competent beings *could* (and, often, *should*) have done these things)" is a common theme.

    I can accept all that with little more than an eye roll.


    Spoiler: Level 2 - NPC personalities
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    One of the big draws of FR modules is, supposedly, the quirky NPCs. That's not exactly big for me, so I'll accept that I might not appreciate the NPCs as much as some, but…

    The quest-giver is a total fanboy stalker… and a strange combination of honest and conniving.

    Flamsterd is… what's the name for an OP female total ***** who, incongruously, all of the NPCs totally adore? Flamsterd is a male one of those, stepping on sleeping PCs, and cursing them to have their weapons *automatically break* *for months* for the audacity of a low-level party having the gaul to reject his generous offer of 0 GP to go to a foreign land to fight minions of a dark god that are steadily overwhelming said land (a wealthy militarized nation that has just commissioned the crafting of over 1,000 additional swords, the delivery of which is the initial focus of chapter 1). Yeah, it's really easy to see why all the NPCs think he's such a great guy.

    And… that's all that really stand out in my mind.

    EDIT: I just remembered another NPC personality issue I had: even the nameless NPCs metagame assume that everyone but the PCs are incapable of doing anything useful, prompting the (low-level) PCs with lines along the lines of, "when are y'all gonna fix all of our problems for us?"


    Spoiler: Level 3 - all the NPCs are better than you
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    Now, this is Forgotten Realms - I expect that there's epic Archmagi running around. And that's fine. I'm not complaining about that.

    I'm not even complaining about there being powerful NPCs involved in the storyline, on both sides. That's fine, too.

    No, my complaints (and, yes, that's plural, as there are several) are separate from my acceptance of that setup.

    One (actually rather mild) complaint is that there's a definite "haves and have nots" vibe, as some of the NPCs are just *way* better equipped than the PCs likely are or will be, even after completing the module - and that's not counting the NPCs whose equipment is "make it up".

    To add to the "have nots" vibe, many NPCs have gear that cannot be stolen, and spellbooks that cannot be looted (since they hid them away, far away from the adventure). Because, apparently, it's important that NPCs always remain better than the PCs can ever be.

    But most telling of all are the base NPC stat blocks. If it's a major NPC, expect something close to straight 18's (I think several NPCs are in "lowest stat is a 14" territory (actually, make that 6 of the NPCs just in chapter 1 with "no stat lower than a 14" - and several of the "lesser" chapter 1 NPCs are set up with their lowest stat as a 13)).

    And it's not just the named NPCs - the PCs would be better off handing their gear to a random nameless NPC, because even those guys have better listed stats (also "no stat lower than a 13", BTW - they just cap out at 16 instead of 18) than the PCs are likely sporting. Baring some extreme luck / munchkinry, the PCs are literally the worst people in the world!


    Spoiler: Level 4 - Schrödinger's Wizard has nothing on these guys; consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds
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    Apropos to the comment that part of the value of modules is having statted NPCs, a lot of the NPCs in this module have stat blocks of, "eh, make something up".

    As if that weren't bad enough, a lot of these unstatted NPCs have "Lady of Pain" style text along the lines of, "assume that their defenses defeat anything that the PCs attempt to do".

    And as if *that* weren't bad enough, check this out: one of the antagonists in chapter 1 (who actually got one of the more complete write-ups) has no magic items, no spellbook, no applicable memorized spells, and the text, "His defenses will prevent PCs from reading his mind or detecting his alignment". Um… how, exactly?

    -----

    EDIT: now, some of you will doubtless be irritated that I include this, because it's a valid playstyle, but it irritates me, so I'm including it. What is this "it"? That there is (IMO) an overabundance of random encounters, but the GM is encouraged to simply ignore them if they "hamper the pace or enjoyment of play". The Plot is railroaded (even if ignoring it would make for a better story); the physics are not.


    Spoiler: Level 5 - does the author even know how D&D works?
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    Just to name a few (and to pick on the Wizards), you've got Wizards…

    Casting spells beyond their capabilities.

    Casting spells that aren't in their "spells memorized" (which is full, I checked - so it's not just "they cast that spell, and their memorized spells are what they have left").

    Casting Time Stop… just to Teleport away… instead of just teleporting.

    Casting Invisibility… just to Teleport away… instead of just teleporting.

    Casting spells which don't do what the module has them do.


    Spoiler: Level 5½ - the rails are beyond lunacy prequel: spellbooks
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    When I say that the rails are "beyond lunacy", I want you to understand exactly what I mean. So let's start with spellbooks - and, more importantly, the background to understand just *why* this is beyond lunacy.

    In 3e, PCs get loot, which they convert to GP value, and use to purchase magical items to increase their power.

    Spellbooks are a *big deal* for Wizards, being an expensive magical item that is highly vulnerable, and without which they are simply a glorified Commoner.

    Now let's look at 2e.

    In 2e, Wizards are still glorified Commoners without their spellbooks (ignoring that the "Commoner" class didn't exist in 2e). And spellbooks are still vulnerable (arguably even moreso than in 3e). But everything else is different.

    There is no assumption of magic item shops - items can be purchased rarely to never. So what do characters do with the actual "gold and gems" portion of their loot? Drink, buy castles, hire retainers, bribe magistrates - mundane stuff.

    Now, here's the big one: spellbooks are just mundane books. They're just recipe cookbooks for "how to make gunpowder" (or the spell equivalent).

    Replacing a spellbook (or creating a backup copy) is as trivial as buying some blank paper, getting out (perfectly mundane) quill and ink, and writing.

    Yet, despite this, and despite how ridiculously much trouble it should cause the NPCs (one of whom crafts reams of scrolls for their buff routines instead of carrying a spell book… for reasons…) the NPC Wizards seem allergic to their spellbooks, hiding them as far away from themselves as possible, not even carrying small partial copies ("travel spellbooks") with them.

    I mean, we all know that (enemy) NPCs only live for one encounter, and so all they need is a spell loadout, as they will never actually *use" their spellbook on camera, but geez! The "cardboard cutout" nature of the backdrop is really showing here.

    And why? Why go through all the effort to ensure that the PCs never get ahold of an NPC spellbook? What's the payoff? Best guess? To make Flamsterd's offer of "one spell, each" seem very generous.


    Spoiler: Level 6 - the rails are beyond lunacy
    Show
    OK, real quick, here's just a few examples, starting with one that I have mentioned before:

    "His defenses will prevent PCs from reading his mind or detecting his alignment". Even ignoring how, why? There is absolutely no reason for this. Yes, ganking him the moment you meet him will mean that you don't have a rather dumb encounter later (but certainly not the dumbest in the module), but... so what? Absolutely nothing in the module is dependent upon that encounter, nothing (other than "this is dumb") is learned from that encounter (that couldn't be learned - and, IMO, learned "better" - by reading his mind), there is afaict no point to that encounter, and the module would actually be *better* if the PCs realistically detected and ganked this guy, or, alternately, realistically *didn't* detect and/or chose not to gank him.

    "Start this encounter when there is at least one PC on deck [at night]”. And, if that never happens (because, say, the PCs choose to actually sleep at night)?

    "When… traveling anywhere overland… they will hurl spears from thickets and overhanging tree branches". So, when the party decides to follow the coastline, and there's nothing but sand…

    "Regardless of which direction the party takes [they come to a grove]" - ignoring the questionable grammar, do note that this includes *backtracking*. "Huh, this grove wasn't here before…”

    (If I were going beyond chapter 1, I would talk about how there are no boats… until the plot demands that there's a boat…)


    And I was going to say, "and that's all just in the 1st chapter", but I see that I've strayed into chapter 2. Oops.

    As a final irritant, the author spends an undue amount of time and ink gushing over certain NPCs and detailing the customs of the clergy of Bane (like, exactly what each level of Cleric is allowed to wear to what function), while spending almost no time actually describing the scenes, or giving details to handle anything off the rails beyond, "if the PCs attempt to kill this NPC".
    Last edited by Quertus; 2020-10-31 at 10:07 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    The module that prompted this inquiry is "Halls of the High King", by Ed Greenwood.
    Ed Greenwood was allowed to write a module?

    I mean, he can't write a decent book to save someone's life, so I suppose there's a chance that his strengths were elsewhere. But given the reasons his books are so terrible, it doesn't seem like modules would be his forte.

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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Ed Greenwood was allowed to write a module?

    I mean, he can't write a decent book to save someone's life, so I suppose there's a chance that his strengths were elsewhere. But given the reasons his books are so terrible, it doesn't seem like modules would be his forte.
    If other 2E modules were like this and DMs accepted them without question, even if innocently not knowing any better, combined with particular advice in the 2E DMG it could explain the origin of my distaste of tyrannical DMing.
    Quote Originally Posted by OvisCaedo View Post
    Rules existing are a dire threat to the divine power of the DM.

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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    If other 2E modules were like this and DMs accepted them without question, even if innocently not knowing any better, combined with particular advice in the 2E DMG it could explain the origin of my distaste of tyrannical DMing.
    Oh yes, 2e was definitely an era of both player storyplaying elitism and full blown DM storyroading. I've always understood you distates to be honestly come by.

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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Flamsterd is… what's the name for an OP female total ***** who, incongruously, all of the NPCs totally adore? Flamsterd is a male one of thos
    I'm guessing the name you're looking for is Mary Sue? I believe male ones are usually called Marty Stu or Gary Stu. And yes, those are wildly annoying when they show up.

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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    If other 2E modules were like this... it could explain the origin of my distaste of tyrannical DMing.
    Which part of "like this" in particular do you find familiar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    I'm guessing the name you're looking for is Mary Sue? I believe male ones are usually called Marty Stu or Gary Stu. And yes, those are wildly annoying when they show up.
    I'm always bad with vocabulary - I thought "Mary Sue" (and Marty Stu) was the name for an OP self-insert? What I'm thinking of is epitomized (IMO) by the female Inquisitor psyker in... "The All Guardsman Party", IIRC.

    Or are they really all the same thing, and I'm just as confused as ever?
    Last edited by Quertus; 2020-10-31 at 05:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    I'm always bad with vocabulary - I thought "Mary Sue" (and Marty Stu) was the name for an OP self-insert? What I'm thinking of is epitomized (IMO) by the female Inquisitor psyker in... "The All Guardsman Party", IIRC.

    Or are they really all the same thing, and I'm just as confused as ever?
    I'm no expert either but I believe a Mary Sue usually refer to a character that's Super Special in every way and beloved by all (except for the bad guys, who are easily defeated and/or proven wrong). Obviously, a self-insert can have this role in the hands of certain writers (or GMs) but I don't think it's a requirement for it to be a Mary Sue.

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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    I'm always bad with vocabulary - I thought "Mary Sue" (and Marty Stu) was the name for an OP self-insert? What I'm thinking of is epitomized (IMO) by the female Inquisitor psyker in... "The All Guardsman Party", IIRC.

    Or are they really all the same thing, and I'm just as confused as ever?
    I am not sure about original usage, but at least for the last ten years it's definitely about OP too-perfect liked-by-everyone-despite-reasons-not-too character without any connotation about being self-insert. Self-inserts tend to go that way, but it definitely has been applied to characters who have nothing in common with the author.

    I am also relatively sure that Mary Sue is used more often than Marty or Gary Stu even when character is male. It's not a gendered term (anymore).
    Last edited by Saint-Just; 2020-10-31 at 05:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    Since I felt a little unsure, I checked to see what TV tropes have to say in the matter and there seem to be a lot of different interpretations of what exactly qualifies as a Mary Sue, including what Quertus though, what I thought and several others.

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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Which part of "like this" in particular do you find familiar?

    NPC immunity to whatever the players do. NPCs can do things and have game mechanics PCs could never have. NPCs essentially break the rules players must game by. Oh look, another bad guy spellcaster without a spellbook.
    Quote Originally Posted by OvisCaedo View Post
    Rules existing are a dire threat to the divine power of the DM.

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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    Since I felt a little unsure, I checked to see what TV tropes have to say in the matter and there seem to be a lot of different interpretations of what exactly qualifies as a Mary Sue, including what Quertus though, what I thought and several others.
    Well, looks like you've appealed to the highest authority

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    NPC immunity to whatever the players do. NPCs can do things and have game mechanics PCs could never have. NPCs essentially break the rules players must game by. Oh look, another bad guy spellcaster without a spellbook.
    Did you, by chance, play at the same tables that I did?

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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    Also, a well-done self insert is often nearly invisible.

    Example:
    GM: Actually, Roger Zelazny had a self-insert in the Amber books.
    Player: Wait, really!? Who, Corwin, Merlin, Dwarkin...?
    GM: No, no, no. Blink, and you'd miss it. There was a guard at Castle Amber, talking about the fantasy book he was writing...
    Player: Really? I don't remember that.
    GM: Sure, the characters were sitting there chatting with him a bit. I think it was just before Corwin walked the pattern the first time.
    Last edited by Stattick; 2020-11-01 at 07:09 AM.

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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stattick View Post
    Also, a well-done self insert is often nearly invisible.

    Example:
    GM: Actually, Roger Zelazny had a self-insert in the Amber books.
    Player: Wait, really!? Who, Corwin, Merlin, Dwarkin...?
    GM: No, no, no. Blink, and you'd miss it. There was a guard at Castle Amber, talking about the fantasy book he was writing...
    Player: Really? I don't remember that.
    GM: Sure, the characters were sitting there chatting with him a bit. I think it was just before Corwin walked the pattern the first time.
    Joel Rosenberg inserted himself into the Guardians of the Flame books... he's a junior engineer named Jayar (or something like that), who is writing a history of the Empire that the characters have created.
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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    A well done nearly perfect character can also be done well. Worm has Scion who is responsible for granting nearly all superpowers and therefore has those same powers. But since he's so powerful, the story treats him more like a force of nature.
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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stattick View Post
    Also, a well-done self insert is often nearly invisible.
    Oh sure, a self-insert doesn't have to be a bad thing. Done right it's pretty similar to how some directors like to cameo in their movies, just a fun little trivia detail. It's when people start using it for wish fulfillment and/or preaching about their own opinions it gets bad, I think.

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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    I believe that a lot of modules were... Ok... But the idea of them saving time I fully disagree. I've always been a reactive style improv DM. I get a scenario but we all know how much players can derail your plans. I find it much easier to let the players drive the story. Fun is #1. I've never had the "railroad DM" said about me

    Now the great thing is that s module can give you a solid framework that you can run multiple groups through. I did a 1st level module 3 separate times and all 3 were drastically different tones.

    Now the locations and stuff they provide being added to your own campaign world... Oh boy I had a group with access to a Sphere of Annihilation, a temple built over the Tomb of Horrors, and a Tannar'ri Farm "trap" to harvest XP. So I guess that can go either way
    Quote Originally Posted by McMindflayer View Post
    Of course, this still doesn't answer the question... "How does it POOP?"
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    I roll a swim check on the street. Why not, right? Through a series of rolls I rob a bunch of people of 75g. I didn't actually notice their existence but I swam over there and did it anyway because this guy couldn't make sense if he tried.

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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    Quote Originally Posted by KoDT69 View Post
    I believe that a lot of modules were... Ok... But the idea of them saving time I fully disagree. I've always been a reactive style improv DM. I get a scenario but we all know how much players can derail your plans. I find it much easier to let the players drive the story. Fun is #1. I've never had the "railroad DM" said about me

    Now the great thing is that s module can give you a solid framework that you can run multiple groups through. I did a 1st level module 3 separate times and all 3 were drastically different tones.

    Now the locations and stuff they provide being added to your own campaign world... Oh boy I had a group with access to a Sphere of Annihilation, a temple built over the Tomb of Horrors, and a Tannar'ri Farm "trap" to harvest XP. So I guess that can go either way
    Yeah, IME, modules do not save time.

    They add content / tone / combinations of elements / whatever that the GM might not create on their own, making the game richer.

    They provide the opportunity for the shared experience with the larger community ("remember 'Tomb of Horrors'?" as equivalent to "remember Star Wars?" or whatever).

    But they don't save time. Not if you try to understand them. For example…

    Let's look at Nymra, from Halls of the High King, known (to no-one, apparently¹) as the Wave Witch. Forgotten Realms modules are supposedly known for their quirky NPCs - what do we know about her personality?

    Not much.

    We know that she is so bad at math, that she bends the laws of the universe around herself to accommodate her bad math². We know that she's so bad at tactics, even Quertus (my signature academia mage for whom this account is named) would face palm³. We know that she will hound the party is left alive, so… she's probably vengeful. And… that's about it.

    So, when the party (ko's her) takes her prisoner, and uses Diplomacy⁴… where's that vaunted quirky personality now? I've got nothing to work with as GM.

    It would actually have been easier to make my own content, and run my own NPC, who I would know, and be able to roleplay them in that scenario, than be handed the module, and be forced to invent a personality that could possibly match that mess.

    ¹ since she uses the legend of the Ghost Ship to cover her piracy, and so cannot really make a name for herself.

    ² Seriously, nothing about her encounter makes sense, from her number of spells to the level of spells she can cast to the timing of her casting them to the number of pirates.

    ³ She makes her pirates invisible, then blocks LoS. She has massive ranged superiority, then penalizes ranged attacks / forces melee. Etc.

    ⁴ Actually role-playing, not just throwing dice at her.

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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    So, based on *my* criteria for "worst module I've ever seen", does anyone have a recommendation for the *next* "worst module" for me to run the parties through once they finish this one? (Obviously, for this particular question, D&D modules are highly preferred)
    Last edited by Quertus; 2020-11-16 at 03:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    I loved Lost Ships, which is a Spelljammer sourcebook by Ed Greenwood, but he definitely loves his enemy mages not keeping their spellbooks around. One encounter has a ship where they pride themselves on not having maps to their treasure stashes. Which is great, but why detail what's at their stashes if there's no way for the PCs to discover them? There's also a large ship that is the research lab of an archmage and his three assistants, and none of them have their spellbooks with them! Apparently they use scrolls of Teleport w/o error whenever the need to replenish their spells. And a pair of liches literally brick up their spellbooks, and have skeleton minions exhume them whenever they need to look at them.
    Last edited by Lord Torath; 2020-11-16 at 10:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    One encounter has a ship where they pride themselves on not having maps to their treasure stashes. Which is great, but why detail what's at their stashes if there's no way for the PCs to discover them?
    Out of curiosity, does it explain how the pirates themselves plan on finding the treasure? I suppose they could just memorize the location but that's basically asking for PCs to subject them to some less than pleasant questioning.

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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    Out of curiosity, does it explain how the pirates themselves plan on finding the treasure? I suppose they could just memorize the location but that's basically asking for PCs to subject them to some less than pleasant questioning.
    The encounter text says they've got it all memorized. Or at least the navigator and captain do. I personally decided to add some maps and a spellbook. Spending weeks going back to your base every time you have to replenish your spells seems.... less than optimal. I figure there'll be back-up spellbooks there, but mages really should have something relatively easy to access when they need to memorize spells.

    Other than that, it's a pretty awesome book! Well, other than the fact that the Viper ship is way overpowered. But I've taken care of that in my signature.
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    My Spelljammer stuff (including an orbit tracker), 2E AD&D spreadsheet, and Vault of the Drow maps are available in my Dropbox. Feel free to use or not use it as you see fit!
    Thri-Kreen Ranger/Psionicist by me, based off of Rich's A Monster for Every Season

  23. - Top - End - #143
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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    I loved Lost Ships, which is a Spelljammer sourcebook by Ed Greenwood, but he definitely loves his enemy mages not keeping their spellbooks around. One encounter has a ship where they pride themselves on not having maps to their treasure stashes. Which is great, but why detail what's at their stashes if there's no way for the PCs to discover them? There's also a large ship that is the research lab of an archmage and his three assistants, and none of them have their spellbooks with them! Apparently they use scrolls of Teleport w/o error whenever the need to replenish their spells. And a pair of liches literally brick up their spellbooks, and have skeleton minions exhume them whenever they need to look at them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    The encounter text says they've got it all memorized. Or at least the navigator and captain do. I personally decided to add some maps and a spellbook. Spending weeks going back to your base every time you have to replenish your spells seems.... less than optimal. I figure there'll be back-up spellbooks there, but mages really should have something relatively easy to access when they need to memorize spells.

    Other than that, it's a pretty awesome book! Well, other than the fact that the Viper ship is way overpowered. But I've taken care of that in my signature.
    I wonder if the PCs at Ed's table are equally… eccentric… regarding the disposition of their spellbooks.

    I think I may own Lost Ships. Somewhere. … wait, is it the one with dozens of unrelated encounters?

    I find Speak with Dead solves issues with extracting information quite nicely, and with minimal mess.

    Stats on the viper? What makes it OP?

  24. - Top - End - #144
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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    I think I may own Lost Ships. Somewhere. … wait, is it the one with dozens of unrelated encounters?
    <snip>
    Stats on the viper? What makes it OP?
    Yes, Lost Ships has a bunch of unrelated encounters. Skull and Crossbones is similar, except that they're all somewhat related.

    As far as the Viper, it's a mid-sized ship with an exceptionally high maneuverability class, very good armor, and a minimum crew of 1, which I presume is supposed to be the person sitting on the helm. You know, I'll just link you to my rant: Least Favorite Spelljammer Ship
    Warhammer 40,000 Campaign Skirmish Game: Warpstrike
    My Spelljammer stuff (including an orbit tracker), 2E AD&D spreadsheet, and Vault of the Drow maps are available in my Dropbox. Feel free to use or not use it as you see fit!
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  25. - Top - End - #145
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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    As far as the Viper, it's a mid-sized ship with an exceptionally high maneuverability class, very good armor, and a minimum crew of 1, which I presume is supposed to be the person sitting on the helm. You know, I'll just link you to my rant: Least Favorite Spelljammer Ship
    Google Images suggests that it looks like a Chinese dragon - which makes "can fly real good despite no 'control surfaces' to speak of" make a strange kind of sense. Also explains the minimum crew of 1, if there's no "control surfaces" to man.

    Does look like a rather OP starter ship, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    I loved Lost Ships, which is a Spelljammer sourcebook by Ed Greenwood, but he definitely loves his enemy mages not keeping their spellbooks around. One encounter has a ship where they pride themselves on not having maps to their treasure stashes. Which is great, but why detail what's at their stashes if there's no way for the PCs to discover them?
    No way? Well, in addition to my preferred Speak with Dead, there's always Suggestion, Mind Rape (OK, not before 3e), ESP, various divination spells, Diplomacy / Intimidation (by roleplaying before 3e), Time Travel, (pretending to) join the crew / get captured, or even just following them around to find the treasure.

    Or even Gather Information / Piracy reports, star charts, and mathematics to try to triangulate travel times to deduce where the hidden treasure planet(s) might be.

    I'm just not seeing "no treasure maps" as an inherent impossibility here.

  26. - Top - End - #146
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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    Keep in mind that, despite the BG3 trailer, Spelljammer ships are (with a couple of exceptions) not alive. The Vipership is made of thick wood, and is not flexible. Essentially it's a long dug-out canoe: Vipership Deck Plans. No sails, no rudder, nothing to steer with. This thing should handle like a brick. Yet it's more maneuverable than the elves' most maneuverable and smallest ship.

    If you compare it with the Lamprey, you see the Lamprey has several fins and a tail to assist in maneuvering. And it's got a worse MC than the Viper Ship. Plus, it's smaller than the Viper, and smaller ships are usually more maneuverable.

    As far as Speak with Dead, I give you this.
    Warhammer 40,000 Campaign Skirmish Game: Warpstrike
    My Spelljammer stuff (including an orbit tracker), 2E AD&D spreadsheet, and Vault of the Drow maps are available in my Dropbox. Feel free to use or not use it as you see fit!
    Thri-Kreen Ranger/Psionicist by me, based off of Rich's A Monster for Every Season

  27. - Top - End - #147
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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    I have never run a module - I see them mainly as good (OK, often not so good) sources of ideas.

    However, the original Scourge of the Slavelords is a good module in my opinion, other than that it requires the PCs to be railroaded into getting captured (and losing almost all gear) not once, but *twice*.

  28. - Top - End - #148
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    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    Of the official published modules, it would have to be Legend of the Silver Skeleton. A module with a CR 9 boss should not have a Marilith which auto-summons 4d10 mooks as a bonus boss. The players should not have the listed survival method be "Scream for help from the borderline-Epic NPCs that happen to be staying here and didn't rescue the Paladin themselves for some reason".

    From unofficial modules... oh, boy. Vampires and Liches, which is for D&D 3.5 (allegedly, but seems to use the 3.0 system with the occasional bit of 2e). I spent last night reading through Friv's Diablo II review, so I'm feeling rather inclined to rip at this module verbally until there's nothing left.

    Spoiler: Vampires and Liches
    Show
    The adventure takes part in the Sewers of the Underguild, an organised crime syndicate run by Sangre, the Hand of Death, head of a vampiric cult. They trade in slaves, information, magic items, anything really. Here's my summary of Part 1, and I'll get to later bits at a later date.

    Spoiler: The Hollow Blade
    Show
    According to legend, Sangre has an item called the Hollow Blade, which is forged from equal parts positive and negative energy, allowing him to walk openly in the sunlight. The blade is sought after by other people as well, because it "grants the ability to cleave the undead as if they were living flesh."

    Okay, let's see what exactly that means.

    The Hollow Blade is an intelligent magic item which acts as a +3 shortsword for rogues (which would allow it to bypass pretty much all undead DR anyway) or a +1 shortsword to anyone else. If you aren't a rogue, you get a RP effect which means you leave it lying about carelessly, display it unwisely, or otherwise invite people to steal it. There's also some text about how it lets you sneak attack and crit undead with it, which is pretty cool.

    It also lets you cast negative plane protection once a day, which doesn't exist in 3.5.

    We then get this terribly written paragraph.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollow Blade
    As it is forged from equal parts of positive and negative energy, the hollow blade causes what-ever physical part such as a hand that touches it to feel charged with life energy. Therefore in the hands of an undead creature, the undead becomes immune to turning, and other effects specific to undead, such as nethergaze, healing magic, and bright light, in-cluding natural light, allowing vampires for example to walk abroad in daylight for up to 4 hours per day.
    So...
    - Does it remove all undead downsides as long as the sword is equipped, or only for four hours a day?
    - Does it remove all undead benefits as long as the sword is equipped?
    - What does it mean when it says undead are immune to healing and bright light? Do they ignore these things fully, or treat it as if they were alive? Does this sword blind any undead which wields it, unless the undead has darkvision, which they all do anyway? Do they lose their undead darkvision because they are immune to undead effects? If they ignore both fully, they can't see, and if they respond to those stimuli as though they were living, they can heal from cure spells. What?

    We still don't know how the sword interacts with incorporeal undead, or with undead that get back up again after you kill them as long as a certain condition is met, such as the Bleakborn.


    Let's look at this dungeon one encounter at a time. Bear in mind this is aimed at level 12 characters.

    Spoiler: 1a. The Silver Skull Seal of the Underguild
    Show
    If you're living, which you probably are at ECL 12, and you cross over or touch an emblem of a silver skull which is in the entrance to the dungeon, an alarm spell goes off, immediately alerting all vampires in the sewers, unless the PCs offer the skull a sacrifice of blood within two turns, which I guess mystically rewrites time or something. By the way, it's an inexplicable DC 30 Search check - rather than DC 10 Spot check - on the skull to see it's covered in dried blood.

    If you decide to search the room, which you will because you're adventurers, the following things happen:

    - a wall of stone seals off the entrance, which is a DC 34 Search check to identify this trap before it happens (so your level 12 rogue with +3 Int and 15 ranks in Search will successfully find it on a roll of 16 or higher)
    - if a spellcaster is making a Spellcraft check at this point in time it's DC 25 to figure out what's about to happen and a DC 23 caster level check to counterspell it with Dispel Magic.
    - after two rounds, the ceiling falls down, 20d6 damage automatic with no save. But don't worry! You can turn this trap off from elsewhere within the dungeon. Shame you... have to go through this room to get to the dungeon.


    Spoiler: 1b, 1c, and 1d. Archways of Swirling Mist
    Show
    These three Archways are all pretty similar in that they're teleporters, decorated ornately with gems, that drop an AoE on the party if they try to tamper with either teleporter or gems beyond simply using it.

    The orange archway allows you to move to the next area with all your gear, the yellow archway dumps you into encounter 11 with a demon, and the green archway...

    ...well, we'll get there.


    Spoiler: 2a and 2b. Chamber of Ankoz
    Show
    The next area is the chamber of Ankoz, a dark and brooding Undead, part of this evil vampiric-- wait, the guy's a Lich? Sure, I guess. If you come in the expected way, through the orange archway, he's had time to buff. Given the orange archway is a teleport, and other ways of teleporting in explicitly don't let him buff, I guess he has some sort of Scrying up on that archway?

    Anyway, he's about what you'd expect from a lich at first glance, until you read his statblock. To start with, he doesn't qualify to be a lich, because neither of his two Craft feats are Craft Wondrous Item. Secondly, he has DR 15/+1, which doesn't exist in 3.5, and thirdly, he has Alchemy as a skill, which also doesn't exist in 3.5.

    He has a contingency which teleports him to another area to heal and plot revenge, but nothing says what activates the contingency, he's not high enough level to place the Teleport spell into a contingency, and he can't cast Dimension Door.

    Once the players kill him, a DC 30 Search check on the body will reveal... HE HID HIS PHYLACTERY INSIDE ONE OF HIS BONES. Yes, that's right. He's a lich who carries his phylactery about. Furthermore, the book recommends the PCs sell the phylactery to a collector for 10,000gp. What?!

    Amusingly, if you find his hidden loot stash, it turns out he has a bunch of potions, which for an explicitly skeletal lich are probably rather hard to drink.


    Spoiler: 3. Crocodiles in the Pool
    Show
    This room contains six inexplicably-Vampiric crocodiles in a twelve foot deep pool, each of which gets a hilarious DC 9 Dominate attack and the ability to create Vampire Spawn but only out of other crocodiles. They've also got DR 15/+1 which only exists in 3.0, and their Initiative has been calculated wrongly. This encounter should be trivial for any Level 12 party.

    Except, do you remember the green archway I mentioned earlier? It turns out, that teleports anyone who goes through it to the bottom of the pool, with a DC 14 Fortitude save to hold their breath suddenly (and no mention of what happens if they fail the save).

    "But this shouldn't be a problem at all", I hear you say. "Any level 12 party should have access to Freedom of Movement, or at least Water Breathing!"

    Well, yes, they should.

    My party of level 15s did not. A PC died here.

    We also need to note that the crocodiles' Children of the Night ability calls other crocodiles, because this'll lead to some interesting logic later.


    The next few encounters are pretty standard. There's some pit traps with illusions over them to make them look like they're full of treasure instead of full of Oozes, a pressure plate trap which will send the players spiralling towards "Area 20" if they trigger it, and the room those crocodiles hide in to recover in their gaseous forms if they're not killed outright.

    Spoiler: 7. Forked Pathway
    Show
    The Forked Pathway is home to what has to be the stupidest trap in this game: a wooden stake trap that can't affect vampires.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forked Pathway
    A deadly and extremely well hidden trap awaits those who do not notice the switch to turn it off. The cunningly hidden wooden stakes spring out at a length of 10 feet from the floor, ceiling, and the facing southern wall. This trap is set here as a test for new recruits to the Underguild.
    It's a DC 20 Search check to find and a DC 20 Disable Device check to disarm, so you're going to find it and disarm it.

    The trap attacks 2d6 times with a +15 bonus for 1d4+5 damage. Which will always be less than 15. Which is the DR of Vampires in this module.


    Spoiler: 8. Fountains of Blood, Passage of Innocence
    Show
    This is where things start getting really silly. As the PCs enter the chamber, four vampires leap at them while hissing at them to join them in undeath.

    Jandilar the Safe Cracker, Male Half-Elf Vampire Rog8 is sly and sneaky, "an assassin in all but training", and attacks by dominating a victim, making them inhale part of him in gaseous form, then partially reforming inside them, killing them instantly (but dealing no damage to him, apparently). He explicitly doesn't use weapons, but wants the hollow blade anyway, because it lets him go out amongst the living almost unseen, which he could do anyway with his +23 Hide and +34 Move Silently. Also, the blade doesn't give any bonuses to stealth of any kind.

    Oh, and he speaks Common and Orc rather than Common and Elven.

    Memze the Lame, Male Human Vampire Rog3/Wiz5 can do anything a rogue, wizard, or vampire can do, but really poorly, because he's multiclassed AND has a template that takes up a lot of ECL. He's known as the Lame because he's disabled. Thanks, game. His perversity "knows no limits" and he hosts terrible "orgies of blood and pain". He also knows how to speak Orc.

    F'Huge Kneebreaker, Guild Enforcer, Male Ogre Vampire Bbn2/Rog4 is just a vampiric ogre with a lot of combat stats and not much else.

    Hethel, the Acolyte of Thanatos, Female Elf Vampire Clr6 (Thanatos)/Rog2 is another multiclass templated caster who can't do much of anything. A bunch of her bonuses have been written in as penalties by mistake (Listen -16?!)

    She's described as beautiful and full of hate, but her charisma is only 13, implying she had 9 charisma before becoming a vampire, so she's likely neither particularly beautiful nor capable of inspiring much emotion. She doesn't even have ranks in Diplomacy, because she took cross-class ranks in Jump instead.

    At least she speaks Elven.

    Also in this room is The Fountain of Blood, which pings of Transmutation and Necromancy under a Spellcraft check, which is silly because it teleports you places.

    Oh, no, my mistake.

    It registers as Transmutation and Necromancy because if you use it, and fail a DC 14 Fortitude save, you are transformed instantly into a vampire.

    If you're a Lawful Good divine caster and you wade through the blood without blessing either the blood or yourself, you get a -2 circumstance penalty to everything in the rest of the dungeon, which seems fair enough.


    Spoiler: 9. False Crypt Room
    Show
    This room contains six (false) stone crypts, each of which is covered in intentionally cringy rhyme. The last of the six crypts reads

    Memze is a guild mage
    Drinks blood cold which is quite strange
    Buried here or not with wit
    Surprise! You're in a room of...


    at which point the GM describes the room flooding with raw sewage, because two rounds after you enter, the trap activates to fill the room. The room fills completely within 24 seconds, and after another 48 seconds, everything inside the room (presumably including PCs) is flushed away to another region.


    Spoiler: 10. The Board Room
    Show
    This room contains a vampire who explicitly addresses the PCs as "living ones", even though at ECL 12 it's possible (although unlikely) you're undead, and there was already a save vs. turning into a vampire.

    He's called Syther Cross, and he wields a scythe. He engages in negotiations and conversation for as long as possible, so any other enemies can get into the room. Like everyone else in this dungeon, he wants the macguffin for himself.

    Oh, and he's explicitly described and illustrated as wearing a silk-sleeved shirt and wide-brimmed, feathered hat, and they decided to make him a fighter/rogue instead of a bard. Perhaps this is because of his Charisma of 12 and no Diplomacy, which... why is this guy the talking encounter?

    Anyway, Syther talks at the PCs and tries to get them to side with him, and if everything goes to crap, the character with the worst name and description so far shows up.

    Manco Money Tongue, Male Halfling Vampire Rog6 uses his small size to pretend to be a human child in order to scam potential marks. Which is a decent enough technique, because as a sixth level rogue specialised in disguise he's clearly going to have a great Disguise bonus, right?

    I think you can see where this is going.

    After the -2 for him not owning a disguise kit, the -2 for him pretending to be a different age category, and the -2 for pretending to be a different race (not to mention any circumstance penalties for pretending to be alive), his effective Disguise bonus is...+0. Possibly -2 if there's a small penalty for impersonating the living.

    Manco is hiding out in the same room as Syther, and if attacked, "uses his Tumble skill to attack spell casters and priests." At least he has Tumble +12. Or possibly it's Syther who uses his Tumble skill, which is also +12.

    There's also another pressure plate trap nearby, labelled 10a, which as with the previous one will throw the players towards Area 20.


    Spoiler: 11. Prison Chamber of Go'Loke
    Show
    PCs unfortunate enough to move through the yellow archway at the start of the game will find themselves trapped in a room with a Glabrezu with a penchant for dice games (and a completely normal CR1 ghoul with a mildly interesting weapon), both of whom are trapped inside a Magic Circle Against Evil.

    The doorway out to the North can be opened by anyone of good alignment, but doing so breaks the circle, at which point the Glabrezu attacks, even though the door isn't connected to the circle and the demon is a gambler and corruptor. His listed motivation is vengeance on Ankoz, so why wouldn't he try to ally with the PCs? He's the only character we've met so far with a high Charisma score!

    He can also attack you if you're teleported into the room by the yellow archway, and will fight until he's nearly destroyed and then Plane Shift out.

    Wait, what?

    If the PCs can teleport in, and he's able to attack the PCs, then this can't be the version of the Magic Circle that has a built-in Dimensional Anchor, so if he's able to Plane Shift, why didn't he do it sooner? Unless this IS the version of Magic Circle that has a Dimensional Anchor, which means the PCs showed up outside the circle and... is this entire CR 15 encounter meant to be him spamming his few ranged SLAs while the party shoots him a lot?


    Spoiler: 12. Eastern Pump House
    Show
    This sounds like a genre of music.

    Hidden in this room are a patrol of Vampire Spawn which the PCs shouldn't have too much trouble with.

    There are four pump wheels here, and "Turning any of the pump wheels clockwise re-sults unchanged sewage levels in Area 20, however the strength of the current drops by 1/8 relative to the number of pumps turned off." I have no idea what that's supposed to mean, but let's assume the current reduces by 1/8 of its maximum value for each pump turned off, and hope that makes sense when we get to Area 20.

    Turning Pump Wheel A clockwise until it stops turns off the hydraulic pressure to the pit traps in Area 4, which might be useful if anything in the entry for Area 4 said anything about what that meant or did. Turning it anticlockwise until it stops increases the sewage depths in Area 20 by 2 feet.

    Turning Pump Wheel B clockwise until it stops turns off the hydraulic pressure to the stake traps in Area 7, which automatically disarms the trap. Turning it anticlockwise until it stops increases the sewage depths in Area 20 by 4 feet, and doubles the strength of the whirlpool in Area 22. Hopefully that'll make more sense once we get there.

    Turning Pump Wheel C clockwise until it stops turns off the hydraulic pressure to the trap in Area 9, which presumably prevents it from triggering. Turning it anticlockwise raises the depth of the sewage in area 30 by 8 feet, and floods hallways outside areas 5, 12, and 13 to a depth of 3 feet. Notably, there is no area 30.

    Turning Pump Wheel D clockwise turns off those pressure plates I mentioned in areas 5 and 10b (except area 10b doesn't exist, so I guess it means 10a), and turning it anticlockwise fills area 20 almost to the ceiling with sewage, quadruples the strength of the whirlpool in area 22, and releases Methaloggot from her imprisonment in area 22.

    Since turning the wheels clockwise doesn't reverse the sewage level increases, if we wanted to, we could summon infinite sewage, which might be useful for something I guess?


    Spoiler: 13a. Lair of Hotchka (The only good bit of the dungeon)
    Show
    Hotchka the Medusa has two statues in her lair, and appears to be an archer, which isn't a useful thing to be in an underground or indoor dungeon.

    Shia surprise! The "statues" are undead staying perfectly still and done up to look like statues! Unlike Manco, Hotchka has a Disguise score high enough to pull this off.

    Her statblock is well-written (apart from the 3.0 skills, but at this point, I've come to realise this is a 3.0 module published as 3.5), and even specifies she can't use her dominating gaze and her petrifying gaze in the same round, and has to choose which to use!

    Recall how I mentioned the vampire crocodiles could use Children of the Night to call more crocodiles? Well, surely then it would be reasonable for Hotchka to call snakes.

    Why does this matter? Because she has Weapon Finesse (Snakes), which is probably intended to only mean her hair-snakes, but actually means she could beat you to death very effectively with a summoned snake if she had one, and if the GM was feeling silly enough.

    The other two vampires in this fight are Cainbry, who is either a half-elf sorcerer or a human rogue depending on if you read his descriptive text or his statblock, and Phryc, a half orc who doesn't speak Orc despite half the other NPCs speaking it and him having a 12 Int.


    Spoiler: 13b. The Never-Ending Corridor
    Show
    This is a poorly thought out corridor where the door at the far end moves further away as the party moves towards it. On the other side of the corridor is Area 2, Ankoz' lair, and Area 2 specifies you can get there through this door, so I guess this is meant to be a puzzle room that the book hasn't specified a solution to (if the door starts 80ft away from us, can we walk 80ft towards the door, then only one of us walks back in order to pull the door closer to us)?

    You also get random effects if you try to use teleportation magic to leave the corridor, which involve dumping you into an area with a high level monster, into the whirlpool, into a locked burial vault, or out of the dungeon.

    It's also not clear if the dilation of space applies in both directions or just one.


    Spoiler: 14. Crypts of the Underguild
    Show
    This is the real lair of the vampires, where they hide out when they're healing or badly injured. It is guarded by "a quartet of vampire pawn", which I'm guessing are vampire spawn who enjoy human chess.

    It specifies that all personal items listed on vampires' statblocks is found here, within their perspective vaults (which I'm guessing are their respective vaults).

    Wow, that sure would have been nice to know before I handed their gear out to the players who defeated them! How do the items teleport back there anyway, if the vampires are destroyed rather than turned to mist? Argh!

    Aside from that, the vaults also contain a potion of sneaking which no vampire rogue will ever need, a cursed potion of wisdom, and ... a debuffed cloak of arachnida. You know, that item which grants Spider Climb, which all vampires already get for free.


    Spoiler: 15. Western Blood Fountain and Vampiric Ooze
    Show
    The other fountain spits you out here, and then the blood within it turns into... a vampiric ooze, which is an ooze with the Undead type, a Charisma of 1 (presumably because it's an undead and not an ooze), undead qualities, ooze qualities, the create spawn ability, and an energy drain attack which applies negative levels - if it can hit a level 12 character with its +7 attack bonus - which are only Fortitude DC 9 to remove.

    It makes me wonder, would that magic sword the boss has which can apply critical hits to undead allow him to hit this ooze for critical damage, as it also has ooze traits?

    Anyway, after you roflstomp the AC 4 ooze with 52 hit points and a -3 Reflex save, the fountain's blood turns to clear water and you can teleport back and forth using it without further danger.


    Spoiler: 16. Western Pump Room
    Show
    So long as all the pumps in the Eastern Pump House are shut off, if all the wheels here are turned clockwise, the stone block in Area 1 is removed. There's no stone block in Area 1, so they're probably referring to the Wall of Stone which may or may not be there depending on if the party mage passed their Spellcraft roll (they almost certainly did) and their Caster Level check to dispel (which could have gone either way). Turning off the pumps also turns off the whirlpools in areas 22 and 23, as well as "lowering the sewer level to a depth of 4 feet", which is probably referring to the sewage level, and may or may not specifically mean in room 22, who knows.


    Spoiler: 17. Ythkool's Cloister
    Show
    This area is filled with holy symbols, (which are specifically different from unholy symbols in 3.5 and, undead don't really like them, so what's that about?) ornate decoration, tapestries, and so on.

    The important item here is the Mirror of Abyssal Damnation, which "instantly replace[s the characters] with chaotic evil clones of themselves" if they look in it, DC 20 Will save negates. Individuals with chaotic evil alignment don't get replaced for some reason.

    The character affected is sucked into the Abyss, except it's only their soul which is sucked into the abyss, except also a clone body "bearing arms and equipment that is an exact duplicate of that which their other form bore" appears, so who knows where their body goes or why it doesn't affect people who are already CE if it's a soul-stealing effect and not an alignment-changing one. If you kill the clone, the victim gets a second save to "find their way back to the mirror portal and escape".

    There's also a coffin here where Ykthool sleeps, but he's not here at the moment. If you investigate the coffin, you get hit by a Blade Barrier trap, and once the blades go away you can see the coffin contains some magic items and, if you look inside the lining, "20lbs. of grave dirt, valued as a spell component to necromancers and certain sects of priests". Sure, I guess.


    Spoiler: 18a and 18b. Shrine of Thanatos
    Show

    The entrance to the Shrine of Thanatos contains a trap which deals 1d4 negative energy levels, which aren't a thing.

    The shrine itself contains an 11-foot statue of someone who is "perhaps an elf". Ykthool is also there, and has a statblock which doesn't quite work but is closer to working than a lot of the other vampires'. His listed tactic is to use Slay Living on an enemy cleric (who'll save or be immune), paladin (who'll save or be immune), or wizard.

    The ambiguously-Elven statue is an animated construct which only gets 10ft reach despite being eleven feet tall and wielding a size appropriate trident.

    After these two are defeated, characters find a platinum bowl at the altar, and if a good aligned character chooses to fill it with blood, everyone is teleported to area 24 with no save.

    No part of the listed strategy of the NPCs in this room includes Dominating a good-aligned character to bleed into the bowl. So, this almost certainly won't ever come up.


    Spoiler: 19. Slave Chambers of the Underguild
    Show
    The place the vampires keep their slaves, and their treatment of said slaves, is as horrible (and explicit) as one might expect, so I won't go into too much detail about that.

    What I will discuss is Ayissa, the human (or elf, depending on whether you believe the flavour text or her statblock) sorceress here who is usually level 10, but currently drained to level 2. She's willing to join the party if they rescue her and fix the Level Drain, but if they don't, she "merely teleports to her home".

    Let's just check her spell sheet... of course she doesn't have any means of teleportation, and even if she did, she couldn't use it if the party don't agree to heal her, because she's been drained to level 2.

    There's also another reference to Manco's leet disguise skills here; if he's forced to flee in a previous encounter, he tries to Dominate Ayissa into claiming he's her little brother and needs to be rescued to. Again, he can't actually pull this off, especially against a level 12 party.

    We also find out about the platinum bowl from the previous area being able to teleport people to area 24.


    Spoiler: 20. The Sewer Cavern
    Show
    Here it is, the Area 20 we've heard so much about!

    ...it's just a river of sludge which you can drown in. That's it. If you fall in and fail a DC 12 Fortitude save, you contract Filth Fever, which at level 12 means the cleric has to memorise a slightly different set of spells tomorrow.


    Spoiler: 21. Altar of Filth
    Show
    This is the prison of Methaloggot the Fouler, who turns out to be an old Black Dragon. Her spells include Mel's acid arrow, which presumably summons Scary Spice, because the only other conclusion is that the acid-breathing dragon wasted a precious sorcerer spell slot on a spell which lets it shoot acid.

    In order to destroy the Altar of Filth, one must first cast clean, which doesn't exist, then bless, then create water, then simultaneously casting remove curse and dispel magic, which nobody is going to figure out by trial and error. Don't worry though - if for some reason someone rolled up a bard for the vampire dungeon, they're eligible to make a DC 27 Bardic Knowledge check to get this information. This is explicitly the only method of figuring it out, with the exception of the legend lore spell, so if you're a Knowledge cleric who took 15 ranks of Knowledge (Religion) hoping to find out the secrets of the Dark Gods, you have no idea because you don't get Legend Lore until next level, whereas the Bard has a decent chance of producing a dirty limerick about the Altar of Filth's weaknesses.


    Spoiler: 22. The Big Flush and 23. The Southern Whirlpool
    Show
    Just like with Area 20, this is a single paragraph for each area with absolutely no information about what happens if the strength of the whirlpool has been octupled by adventurers playing with the water pipes. I'd guess that the 6d6 crushing damage people take from failing the DC 30 Swim check turns into 48d6 damage, but who knows at this point?


    Spoiler: 24. Tomb of Sangre
    Show
    Sangre, and Ankoz if he still lives (he doesn't, because he can't actually teleport) are here as the boss fight. Sangre is a 13th level Rogue/1st level Ranger, and the only character so far who appears to have any ranks in Diplomacy. He wears a +4 Headband of Intellect, which makes his Intelligence score of 12 - so, 8 without the headband, 6 before becoming a vampire - an... interesting choice for a rogue. Especially a rogue without a racial penalty to Intelligence. Killing him gets you about 50,000 gold in currency and gems, and his sword, which is almost certainly useless to you because there are easier and better written ways to hit undead with stuff at level 12.

    There's also a single scroll of Teleport which teleports you back to Room 1, but doesn't dispel the wall of stone, because one of the other rooms you could have found has a way to remove it.
    Spoiler: Extended Signature
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconium View Post
    All things considered, the guy whose character attacked a gazebo may have actually had a point...
    Quote Originally Posted by Anlashok View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sideswipe View Post
    ban the problem spells and the problem classes. not the whole book.
    So.. Keep the bard?
    Quote Originally Posted by Story View Post
    The only thing worse than a Beholder with an anti-magic cone is a Beholder without the anti-magic cone.
    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    Baaa, I can think! Baaa, I can't see in the dark!

  29. - Top - End - #149
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Australia

    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    I think you're being a little harsh here Socksy. A halfelf speaking orcish instead of elvish is an interesting quirk
    AND
    A talking encounter because the NPC likes to talk rather than because they're good at it is fine!




    That's it.

    No other quibbles.


    I did say a little harsh


    Also "Vampire Pawn", maybe they know they're minions?
    Maybe they're actually seagoing crustacions (similar to the crocodiles)
    Or were they bought, 2nd hand and heavily discounted?
    Perhaps they make blue movies?
    Last edited by Duff; 2020-11-18 at 08:16 PM.
    I love playing in a party with a couple of power-gamers, it frees me up to be Elan!


  30. - Top - End - #150
    Troll in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Italy
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Worst module you've ever seen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kami2awa View Post

    However, the original Scourge of the Slavelords is a good module in my opinion, other than that it requires the PCs to be railroaded into getting captured (and losing almost all gear) not once, but *twice*.
    well, it's not a module but a fps videogame, but far cry 5 railroads you into getting captured 11 times!
    In memory of Evisceratus: he dreamed of a better world, but he lacked the class levels to make the dream come true.

    Ridiculous monsters you won't take seriously even as they disembowel you

    my take on the highly skilled professional: the specialized expert

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