Pokémon Thread XXX: Hot Skitty on Wailord Action!

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Previous Thread

What are everyone's thoughts on the Mega Raids in Pokémon Go?

I'm not a fan, but that's mostly because COVID has made group Raiding ill-advised.

[danzibr]

Just mega evolved my Beedrill. Man, what a disappointment. Lasts 4 hours? Yuck.

[Rater202]

Honestly, I'm surprised that they didn't drop Mega evolution as a concept when Gigantimax came around.

It seems that every Gen has a new gimick for keeps and a new gimick for only that gen.

[Bartmanhomer]

Some people say that the Pokemon Showdown is a very balanced game. No, it's not. I love Pokemon Showdown as much as the next person but I can tell you it's not a balanced game.

[danzibr]

k, question, folks

I'm an aspiring... mid-game player. Level 33, have a big stockpile (for me) of fast TMs, charged TMs, rare candy. A few legendaries (not many, the birds and doggos). But I haven't used many resources.

My question is, how do you decide which 'mons to use TMs on?

My current thinking is this: I've favorited all my 'mons which have matching fast and charged moves (at least above 2000 CP or so), thus anything below that doesn't have matching moves. I plan on (naively?) getting up to 3 of each attacker type (like Ice with matching Ice fast and charged moves), and if I have stuff leftover, just go top down. Can't have too many Tyranitars eh?

I'm *not* looking at like... dual types or current raids or projected raids or anything.

[Squark]

I look at pokemon I have who are well regarded and whom I can easily get candy for.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Just mega evolved my Beedrill. Man, what a disappointment. Lasts 4 hours? Yuck.

It did seem kind of like it was a boost for Raid Night and not much else.

I'm an aspiring... mid-game player. Level 33, have a big stockpile (for me) of fast TMs, charged TMs, rare candy. A few legendaries (not many, the birds and doggos). But I haven't used many resources.

My question is, how do you decide which 'mons to use TMs on?

TBH I hardly ever use my TMs. There have been a couple times I've wanted a specific Pokemon to have a different attack for the Battle League, and that's really it.

[unseenmage]

Anyone else kind of tired of Team Rocket ballons bobbing about in the way of their poke-tapping?

I just want to shiny check in peace darnnit.

[boj0]

Some people say that the Pokemon Showdown is a very balanced game. No, it's not. I love Pokemon Showdown as much as the next person but I can tell you it's not a balanced game.

No one says that, because Showdown isn't a game, it's a server; and anyone who plays Pokemon seriously knows it isn't balanced.

Sooo I'm not sure where you were going with that aside from making generalizations?

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Anyone else kind of tired of Team Rocket ballons bobbing about in the way of their poke-tapping?

I just want to shiny check in peace darnnit.

I've found they're generally useful for getting the First Catch of the Day bonus if the auto-spawning Pokémon flees. But yeah I don't really need them drifting along behind me while I walk around the block; if I were going to fight them I'd have done it immediately.

Also I wish they'd update the dialog for the Balloon Grunts, because I find myself getting snarky with them.

"My boss told me to take over this PokeStop!" What PokeStop?
"What are you doing here?!" I live here.
Etc...

[MCerberus]

Speaking of the title, nintendo advertised a "Pokemon Masters Ex". On twitter. Where hashtags don't have spaces.

[Fable Wright]

Speaking of the title, nintendo advertised a "Pokemon Masters Ex". On twitter. Where hashtags don't have spaces.

They prefer people to use the hashtag that's capitalized.

Which is why #pokemonmastersex is trending.

[Bartmanhomer]

No one says that, because Showdown isn't a game, it's a server; and anyone who plays Pokemon seriously knows it isn't balanced.

So I'm not sure where you were going with that aside from making generalizations?

I wasn't making any generalizations on Pokemon Showdown. A few friends of mine claim that Pokemon Showdown is balanced. I told them it isn't balanced.

[boj0]

I wasn't making any generalizations on Pokemon Showdown. A few friends of mine claim that Pokemon Showdown is balanced. I told them it isn't balanced.

Yes, you were, you literally just made a sweeping generalization about Showdown.

I love Pokemon Showdown as much as the next person but I can tell you it's not a balanced game.

Also, Showdown is not balanced or unbalanced; it's a website, not a game. Unless you mean the various game modes, like OverUsed, Monotype, Anything Goes, etc. In which case I'd ask which ones you don't think are balanced, and why.

[Bartmanhomer]

Yes, you were, you literally just made a sweeping generalization about Showdown.


Also, Showdown is not balanced or unbalanced; it's a website, not a game. Unless you mean the various game modes, like OverUsed, Monotype, Anything Goes, etc. In which case I'd ask which ones you don't think are balanced, and why.

How is that even a generalization? And to answer your second question all of them are unbalanced including Ubers.

[boj0]

Generalization
n. A principle, statement, or idea having general application.

So when you make a statement about an entire website/game, that's a generalization; a broad statement (Showdown is unbalanced) applied to many examples (the tiers/game modes). My issue is that you are making these statements without any explanation or evidence.

What is your definition of unbalanced? Why is it unbalanced? Do you believe that Pokémon in general is unbalanced, or purely limited to Showdown? Right now, all we have is you saying "some people said it's balanced, I said it wasn't." Which, given the trend of the thread at the time, comes across as a non-sequitur that doesn't leave room for discussion and defeats the purpose of a public forum.

[Bartmanhomer]

So when you make a statement about an entire website/game, that's a generalization; a broad statement (Showdown is unbalanced) applied to many examples (the tiers/game modes). My issue is that you are making these statements without any explanation or evidence.

What is your definition of unbalanced? Why is it unbalanced? Do you believe that Pokémon in general is unbalanced, or purely limited to Showdown? Right now, all we have is you saying "some people said it's balanced, I said it wasn't." Which, given the trend of the thread at the time, comes across as a non-sequitur that doesn't leave room for discussion and defeats the purpose of a public forum.

Ok, I see what you mean. The difference between the stats, offensive, defensive, strength, and weakness is for each Pokemon is very unbalanced. There's no equal balanced for every Pokemon just like the tier in Smogon. Some people who spoke to me about Pokemon is very equally balanced (regardless of the Pokemon Strength and Weakness of the Smogon Tier.) Pokemon is very broken and Mewtwo is very broken and Magikarp is very weak (although Magikarp can be a powerful top-tier Sweeper with the Attack Boost Sword Dance and Baton Pass combo.) The whole discussion that I'm trying to convince my friends that Pokemon is very unbalanced no matter what. How's that for a discussion?

[boj0]

I would say that there has to be at least some variation in stat distribution, otherwise all battles would just be between the same Pokémon every battle. While that can lead to some imbalance, I feel that gives some incentive for creativity and removes stagnation (in theory).

Regarding tiers, I feel that it comes down to a perception of what the tiers are supposed to be and how they are actually used. Overused, for example is not supposed to be the tier for "the strongest", it's simply supposed to be the most used 'mons, however the most used tend to be those with a combination of high stat values, powerful moves, efficient typing, etc. This lends to a feedback loop of OU is better, because if something was good, then it would be used, and if it was used it would be OU.

That leads to issues with the metagame and trends, various Pokémon have risen and fallen in usage without any real change to personal power, it's just a reaction to trends in battling. A "weak" Pokemon fills a useful niche and gains traction in the meta, it becomes OU, then by the feedback loop example it becomes "strong".

Spoiler: Bisharp tangent

Show

Bisharp is my favorite example of this, by all means a very average monster, with it's typing being it's most notable feature. In 5th Gen it saw some usage but mostly hung around the lower tiers since fast Fighting types were so common in OU. 6th Gen came around and shook things up, Steel lost their resistance to Dark and Ghost, which Bisharp still resisted, Knock Off recieved a buff, Intimidate and Defog were prevalent (and with Defiant, Bisharp had reliable access to Attack increases), Fairies caused Fighting types to drop in usage, and were weak to Steel in turn, and with Sucker Punch it was able to add priority which was a massive staple for 6th gen teams. Even though Bisharp didn't change much, the competitive environment *did*

This is why we see things that aren't conventionally strong, but valuable in a specific competitive environment, famously the VGC Pachirisu, which is a weak mon individually, but a combination of what was available and trends in the doubles meta let it "punch above its weight class". This is what allows Pokémon that are "broken" to sit and collect dust while gimmicky sets and become meta staples. So Pokemon themselves are strong and weak, but it comes more down to synergy.

Finally, I believe that the issues with Smogon/Showdown stem from an attempt to take various aspects of the game to add or remove in an attempt to make it balanced. Imposing restrictions forces innovation, if Mewtwo is the strongest then it wins everything, get rid of Mewtwo and balance the game. Now people have to use a different Pokemon to fill its role and potentially cover any new weaknesses that arise. Then people learn how to fight those new threats and bring counters, then counters to the counters. A tier is born, now you can have another tier to allow people to make teams and battle with the other Pokemon, and new strategies are developed, counters are made, and counters for counters, etc. The cycle continues ad nauseam.

Pokemon is broken and unbalanced, but I would say that's its greatest strength, it encourages people to adjust it, to make restrictions, to embrace themes and goals, to force innovation and thus force growth. Force change. Force it to even...evolve?

[Bartmanhomer]

I would say that there has to be at least some variation in stat distribution, otherwise all battles would just be between the same Pokémon every battle. While that can lead to some imbalance, I feel that gives some incentive for creativity and removes stagnation (in theory).

Regarding tiers, I feel that it comes down to a perception of what the tiers are supposed to be and how they are actually used. Overused, for example, is not supposed to be the tier for "the strongest", it's simply supposed to be the most used 'mons, however, the most users tend to be those with a combination of high stat values, powerful moves, efficient typing, etc. This leads to a feedback loop of OU is better, because if something was good, then it would be used, and if it was used it would be OU.

That leads to issues with the metagame and trends, various Pokémon have risen and fallen in usage without any real change to personal power, it's just a reaction to trends in battling. A "weak" Pokemon fills a useful niche and gains traction in the meta, it becomes OU, then by the feedback loop example it becomes "strong".

Spoiler: Bisharp tangent

Show

Bisharp is my favorite example of this, by all means, a very average monster, with its typing being it's a most notable feature. In 5th Gen, it saw some usage but mostly hung around the lower tiers since fast Fighting-types were so common in OU. 6th Gen came around and shook things up, Steel lost their resistance to Dark and Ghost, which Bisharp still resisted, Knock Off received a buff, Intimidate and Defog were prevalent (and with Defiant, Bisharp had reliable access to Attack increases), Fairies caused Fighting-types to drop in usage and were weak to Steel in turn, and with Sucker Punch, it was able to add priority which was a massive staple for 6th gen teams. Even though Bisharp didn't change much, the competitive environment *did*

This is why we see things that aren't conventionally strong, but valuable in a specific competitive environment, famously the VGC Pachirisu, which is a weak mon individually, but a combination of what was available and trends in the doubles meta let it "punch above its weight class". This is what allows Pokémon that are "broken" to sit and collect dust while gimmicky sets and become meta staples. So Pokemon themselves are strong and weak, but it comes more down to synergy.

Finally, I believe that the issues with Smogon/Showdown stem from an attempt to take various aspects of the game to add or remove in an attempt to make it balanced. Imposing restrictions forces innovation, if Mewtwo is the strongest then it wins everything, gets rid of Mewtwo, and balances the game. Now people have to use a different Pokemon to fill its role and potentially cover any new weaknesses that arise. Then people learn how to fight those new threats and bring counters, then counters to the counters. A tier is born, now you can have another tier to allow people to make teams and battle with the other Pokemon, and new strategies are developed, counters are made, and counters for counters, etc. The cycle continues ad nauseam.

Pokemon is broken and unbalanced, but I would say that's its greatest strength, it encourages people to adjust it, to make restrictions, to embrace themes and goals, to force innovation, and thus force growth. Force change. Force it to even...evolve?

Well it's still imbalanced in my opinion and Pokemon Showdown is no different than the actual Pokemon games but hey I love Pokemon Showdown which I haven't gone to that website for a while, so I might think that I want to pop in playing my Legendaries.

[enderlord99]

Showdown is the most-balanced pokemon game, official or otherwise; unfortunately, "most balanced pokemon game" is a phrase much like "fastest sloth."

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Many metagames as played on Showdown use a series of clauses that ban or nerf the most abusable exploits, like how you're not allowed to force an endless battle by using pokémon A with ability B and berry C plus a +5 in Cha and a feat ported over from 3.0 (I think I may need a refresher on how to Pokémon) or how you can't cause an opponent to fall asleep if there already is someone asleep on their team (because sleep powder has basically no drawbacks, as long as you outspeed you'll put them asleep).

I suppose that's what your friends meant when they said it was balanced.

Now, there are some more obscure metagames on the server that do stuff like giving stat boosts to Pokémon from lower tiers, which is closer to the kind of balance you seem to be thinking of, because for some reason you want Magikarp to be good (spoiler: it never will be). But this kind of balance is complicated, and any attempt at this will inherently make some Pokémon better than others.

[Spore]

So, is the Sw/Sh DLC worth the price if you want it for the story, not the advantage on competitive?

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Pokemon is broken and unbalanced, but I would say that's its greatest strength, it encourages people to adjust it, to make restrictions, to embrace themes and goals, to force innovation and thus force growth. Force change. Force it to even...evolve?

Speaking of restrictions, am I the only one who thinks it’s odd that the Halloween Cup allows Fairy but not Psychic? I admit that I don’t know how useful they would be against a bunch of Dark, Ghost, and Bug Pokémon but I would think they fit the spooky Halloween theme at least as well as Fairy types.

[Fable Wright]

Speaking of restrictions, am I the only one who thinks it’s odd that the Halloween Cup allows Fairy but not Psychic? I admit that I don’t know how useful they would be against a bunch of Dark, Ghost, and Bug Pokémon but I would think they fit the spooky Halloween theme at least as well as Fairy types.

Fairy makes sense, for cute halloween costumes. Psychic was probably removed because things like Azelf or Lugia don't fit the theme.

I was going to joke that ot was to keep Mr. Mime out of Trick or Treating, but then I remembered that he's already in the building.

[Rater202]

Fairy-types might be cutesy but their moves invoke the moon, their type advantages and weaknesses imply that they're based on The Fair Folk* and some Pokedex entries imply the same.

*They're called "The Fair Folk" becuase while some of them can be considered "good" all of them are completly bat**** by human standards and all of them demand utmost respect. Calling them something less polite, being nin anyway perceived as rude, or breaking rules that you were probably never told or given a chance to learn tends to result in a fate worse than death.

[MCerberus]

Fairy-types might be cutesy but their moves invoke the moon, their type advantages and weaknesses imply that they're based on The Fair Folk* and some Pokedex entries imply the same.

*They're called "The Fair Folk" becuase while some of them can be considered "good" all of them are completly bat**** by human standards and all of them demand utmost respect. Calling them something less polite, being nin anyway perceived as rude, or breaking rules that you were probably never told or given a chance to learn tends to result in a fate worse than death.

Imagine there's a pokemon Wild Hunt and you get taken out by your spare keys.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Fairy-types might be cutesy but their moves invoke the moon, their type advantages and weaknesses imply that they're based on The Fair Folk* and some Pokedex entries imply the same.

*They're called "The Fair Folk" becuase while some of them can be considered "good" all of them are completly bat**** by human standards and all of them demand utmost respect. Calling them something less polite, being nin anyway perceived as rude, or breaking rules that you were probably never told or given a chance to learn tends to result in a fate worse than death.

Which is reasonable for Halloween, but doesn’t really explain why Psychic types aren’t also included. Having every secret in your head exposed, having your memories and identity completely wiped, having your children literally vanish into thin air...I should think that would be spooky enough.

Imagine there's a pokemon Wild Hunt and you get taken out by your spare keys.

I haven’t seen Klefki in-game yet, but now I really want to.

[Bartmanhomer]

Many metagames as played on Showdown use a series of clauses that ban or nerf the most abusable exploits, like how you're not allowed to force an endless battle by using pokémon A with ability B and berry C plus a +5 in Cha and a feat ported over from 3.0 (I think I may need a refresher on how to Pokémon) or how you can't cause an opponent to fall asleep if there already is someone asleep on their team (because sleep powder has basically no drawbacks, as long as you outspeed you'll put them asleep).

I suppose that's what your friends meant when they said it was balanced.

Now, there are some more obscure metagames on the server that do stuff like giving stat boosts to Pokémon from lower tiers, which is closer to the kind of balance you seem to be thinking of because for some reason you want Magikarp to be good (spoiler: it never will be). But this kind of balance is complicated, and any attempt at this will inherently make some Pokémon better than others.

Yes, the metagame of Pokemon is very complex.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I’m being reminded why I only sporadically partake of the GO Battle League. Two battles in a row where my lead Pokémon is nearly KO’d before the opposing Pokémon even loads in will do that to a person.

[Rater202]

I still want the spin-off game where mad scientist kidnaps a kid and fuses them with a Pokemon or otherwise turns them into some kind of hybrid with endings based on whether you stay fused, separate, or fail to escape from the bad guys.

There are a lot of concepts in Pokemon that are only around for one or two generations and never get fleshed out despite being super cool. We get a human accidentally fusing with a Pokemon in gen one and multiple pokemon being fused together in SwSH, so clearly, this kind of thing is plausible in the lore.