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  1. - Top - End - #211
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ElfRogueGirl

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy Guild Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Xihirli View Post
    Yeah, FoS Elenna. That's a wolf play. Putting yourself out there to take down one villager.

    JeenLeen and Elenna are the wolves here. I don't have a preference.
    I'm voting for the person I think is most likely to be a wolf, how is that a wolf play? Okay, admittedly I don't expect much to come of it, but several people were suspicious of Helgraf yesterday so I thought I'd propose lynching them as an option...
    Like I've said, if nobody's interested I'll switch to JeenLeen.

    (Also, since when do wolves put themselves out there to lynch one villager? One wolf for one villager is a bad trade for wolves even if that villager is the seer.)
    I'm Chaotic Good! Ish!

  2. - Top - End - #212
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy Guild Mafia

    Cao was one of my network but I think I know who the black mage is which helps. ION, I trust the two uncounterclaimed info-roles.

    I am deliriously tired and will probably sleep soon but mehhh JeenLeen get gone.

  3. - Top - End - #213
    Troll in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy Guild Mafia

    We decided to surrender.

    So, yeah, I was off my game, but between that and bad luck, it's fair we lose. Went through all the possibilities, and the only way Town could lose is if they make really poor decisions AND lose a coinflip the last day of voting when it's 1 vs 1.
    1. Having an inactive wolf hurts
    2. Hitting the Ninja N1 gave Town a confirmed Townie
    3. The coinflip killing AV instead of the seer was also not too great for us.
    4. I goofed in killing Cao. Should have done something bolder/riskier or killed Apogee.

    I'll have the recruitment thread up for my game later today or tomorrow.
    Was The Outsider the Black Mage and Unavenger the Paladin?

    Though, besides my choice of Freelancer Roles, I don't know if I would have posted much differently if I were Town. Except to ask Cao to ask the seer to scry me.

  4. - Top - End - #214
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Dec 2013

    Default Re: Final Fantasy Guild Mafia

    End of Game

    The guild successfully rooted out the traitors, backing them into a tight enough corner that they decided to turn themselves over.

    Town Wins
    Valmark, Necromancer
    Apogee, Beast Master
    Book Wombat, Dragoon
    Avatar Vecna, Hunter
    Xihirli, White Mage
    Unavenger, Paladin
    The Outsider, Black Mage
    CaiohmintheCape, Ninja
    Helgraf, Scholar
    Kinro, Blue Mage




    This was an interesting experiment.

  5. - Top - End - #215
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AvatarVecna's Avatar

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy Guild Mafia

    Wolf team had...problems.

    Freelancer/Dark Knight/Thief is...not a great combo. It can work well enough if they're all working at it, but it doesn't have the same power as robbing town of some serious roles.

    An inactive wolf hurt. Thief!Xihirli or Thief!AV or Thief!Helgraf in place of Thief!Jonny would've been much worse for town, I think - if only for robbing town of a good player and saddling them with another inactive.

    N1 resulted in two roles being locktown. That's...extremely unfortunate. A bad vigilante can make town lose before they've had a chance to figure out what's going on. A good or just lucky vigilante can ruin the wolf game just as quick, and that's more or less what happened here. If there'd only been one locktown role D1, they couldn't have been the rallying point for a network, since they'd just die in the night pretty easily. But with two of them, coordinating with the already-formed network...oof.

    I'm not sure if there was a really good outcome for the cointoss, at least as far as scumteam's concerned. A seer out against them obviously didn't work out for them, but I'm not sure a networked Hunter would've been any more fun for them to face either. The big gain there is how it immediately lent credit to the forming network among those people that still didn't trust it yet.

    I'd be interested in seeing iterations of this game run in the future.


    Currently Recruiting: Nothing. Maybe come start one?

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  6. - Top - End - #216
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy Guild Mafia

    Personally, I loved it. And not because I ended up winning, but because I happen to love the chaos and uncertainty that came with not having designated traitor roles. It kept people on their toes.

    Also, yeah, I was the Black Mage and Unavenger was the Paladin. Apologies to Valmark for freezing him to death unnecessarily.
    I can see it from the outside.
    And I know you're on the inside... lookin' out.


  7. - Top - End - #217
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Xihirli's Avatar

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy Guild Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    I'm voting for the person I think is most likely to be a wolf, how is that a wolf play? Okay, admittedly I don't expect much to come of it, but several people were suspicious of Helgraf yesterday so I thought I'd propose lynching them as an option...
    Like I've said, if nobody's interested I'll switch to JeenLeen.

    (Also, since when do wolves put themselves out there to lynch one villager? One wolf for one villager is a bad trade for wolves even if that villager is the seer.)
    Yeah, the sarcasm didn't pass through. Helgraf outed himself to take you out, and I was sarcastically pointing the absurdity of calling them a wolf for that.
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Zar Peter View Post
    Supagoof took the most blows and incidentally took exactly the same damage Xihirli inflicted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silent_Interim View Post
    Xihirli: Being a better target since 2015.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    Xihirli, bastion of murder and betrayal.
    Quote Originally Posted by BasketOfPuppies View Post
    Wow I missed a lot today. So, kill Xihirli?
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceseer View Post
    I really wanted what Xihirli said to be true though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowblaze View Post
    You can trust her to be completely insane; and probably to backstab you.
    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed View Post
    I still prefer to see you as the dagger hanging over us all, Xi.

  8. - Top - End - #218
    Troll in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy Guild Mafia

    I was amused that my voting would probably have been the same if I were town. I did think Valmark and Apogee seemed suspicious (at least for D1 nonsense justification), and Xi as a wolf-baner looked possible, as well as Helgraf looking iffy and then looking like a possible wolf-seer. And AV is AV, so always to be distrusted to some degree.
    Of course, I knew they weren't wolves, but I think I would have acted not much differently if I were ignorant of that.

  9. - Top - End - #219
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ElfRogueGirl

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy Guild Mafia

    Yeah, the idea of not having designated traitor roles seems fun, and I'd be down to play with this ruleset again. Wolves just had some bad luck and some bad decisions this game.

    In case anyone was wondering, we hit Cao N1 because we wanted to kill one of the networks and I decided AV was more likely to be watched than Cao. Obviously that didn't work out quite as well as we hoped...

    Quote Originally Posted by Xihirli View Post
    Yeah, the sarcasm didn't pass through. Helgraf outed himself to take you out, and I was sarcastically pointing the absurdity of calling them a wolf for that.
    Oh! Yeah, that's fair, I figured I'd make one last effort to get a townie lynched before surrendering but it wasn't exactly a great argument.

    Although if I really had been town I would still have accused Helgraf of being a wolf. But the situation almost certainly wouldn't have arisen if I was town.

    Also, wolf QT: https://www.quicktopic.com/53/H/UM3VwPqFSU8R
    Last edited by Elenna; 2020-09-14 at 03:11 PM.
    I'm Chaotic Good! Ish!

  10. - Top - End - #220
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Valmark's Avatar

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy Guild Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by The Outsider View Post
    Personally, I loved it. And not because I ended up winning, but because I happen to love the chaos and uncertainty that came with not having designated traitor roles. It kept people on their toes.

    Also, yeah, I was the Black Mage and Unavenger was the Paladin. Apologies to Valmark for freezing him to death unnecessarily.
    At least I got killed after using my power!

    As you can imagine, the two inactives stayed inactive.

    This was fun, although I feel like giving the wolves specific roles that can sinergize might have worked out better balance-wise. There again, not having an inactive in the first place would have been great for them, that was unlucky.
    I won an argument with my GM -15/08/2017- (20:32 GMT +1)

    Want to try a WereWolf or Mafia game? Do you already know it and want to play it? Crazier Idea Mafia currently recruiting!


  11. - Top - End - #221
    Troll in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy Guild Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    In case anyone was wondering, we hit Cao N1 because we wanted to kill one of the networks and I decided AV was more likely to be watched than Cao. Obviously that didn't work out quite as well as we hoped...
    And hit him N2 so I could become Ninja to survive getting lynched. But that had issues beyond being caught red-handed doing it that I hadn't contemplated before doing it. To wit, we would have been (will had? hard to use the right future tense here) better off with the Black Mage hitting a random townie than me again. But I didn't see that until we were about ready to surrender.
    Last edited by JeenLeen; 2020-09-14 at 03:18 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #222
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy Guild Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post

    In case anyone was wondering, we hit Cao N1 because we wanted to kill one of the networks and I decided AV was more likely to be watched than Cao. Obviously that didn't work out quite as well as we hoped...
    That's partly why I wanted to start the network. Since I was a Ninja it was by job to be killed once and make the wolves waste time so I figured I would do something obvious to draw attention.

    Also, AV was apparently protected by Unavenger Night 1 so the kill was never going to go through as planned.


    I'll post the QT between myself and Outsider a bit later, but it has links to all of my QTs, so if anyone objections let me know.


    Not sure what the Wolves could have done for a good kill last night:

    I was covered by Apogee, obviously. White/Blue Mages on each other, Pally was on Black Mage. Scholar was not protected but that would super confirm Xi as town. Anyone else there was at least some question on their townieness so it would have been helpful.



    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    I was amused that my voting would probably have been the same if I were town. I did think Valmark and Apogee seemed suspicious (at least for D1 nonsense justification), and Xi as a wolf-baner looked possible, as well as Helgraf looking iffy and then looking like a possible wolf-seer. And AV is AV, so always to be distrusted to some degree.
    Of course, I knew they weren't wolves, but I think I would have acted not much differently if I were ignorant of that.
    Yeah, since the inactives were the first to die and the first Wolf NK didn't really go through there wasn't much to analyze. But Night 2 we got the roles sorted out and just mechanically solved it. Not sure anyone really gave off super obvious tells.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    And hit him N2 so I could become Ninja to survive getting lynched. But that had issues beyond being caught red-handed doing it that I hadn't contemplated before doing it. To wit, we would have been (will had? hard to use the right future tense here) better off with the Black Mage hitting a random townie than me again. But I didn't see that until we were about ready to surrender.
    Didn't even consider you getting Ninja abilities with my death. That would have drawn out the game a bit more but I'm guessing you mathed it out and it would have been close.


    I was worried about Jeen/Apogee as the team, or at least Apogee watching me die and bringing down someone from the town.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    At least I got killed after using my power!

    As you can imagine, the two inactives stayed inactive.

    This was fun, although I feel like giving the wolves specific roles that can sinergize might have worked out better balance-wise. There again, not having an inactive in the first place would have been great for them, that was unlucky.
    I was looking forward to Necromancer getting used but with Inactives dying early it really didn't come into play. Hopefully that role gets brought back when there are more players or the game lasts longer.
    Last edited by CaoimhinTheCape; 2020-09-14 at 03:20 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #223
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Helgraf's Avatar

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy Guild Mafia

    Agreed having inactive wolf -especially in a game this small and in a game where every character has powers- is rough.

    Meanwhile I'm here the whole time in paranoia overdrive mode, wondering first if Xihirli had been protected by the wolves on day 1 (CLARIFICATION: protected by the bookworm wagon coming up) , then once my scry came back on them as Guild, trying to live long enough to verify AV as actually guild networking and not wolf networking so I could safely turn over my information. I QTed Xih as soon as I got the verification. AV's getting lynched in my place allowed me to scry someone whose pattern (once I had time to reflect on it - eg when I was no longer actively trying to keep myself alive) felt off. I narrowed the list to Elenna, Valmark, and Kinro; once day ended, I responded to a QT with Cao; threw what I had to them. We went with Elenna as my night 2 scry, and apparently blackmage nuked Valmark, taking another name off the list (albiet they turned out town).

    Then morning happened, and Beastmaster (unbeknownst to me, as the two people I was in contact with were wisely not giving me role information since I hadn't yet pinged a traitor to establish myself) having tracked Jean the prior night ... well, all the puzzle pieces basically fell into place this morning.

    I did post the voting chart for the first two days - unless I missed a vote; at the end accounting for all vote changes, I got a tally of 4 for AV, 3 for me. If someone wants to look it over and show me what I missed, I'd appreciate it. If my spreadsheet is correct, great. If it's wrong, then it came down in the short term to the flip of the coin. But the way things were going, I think the guild would have pulled it out in an extra day or two the way things were going.

    FWIW, a *lot* of the old werewolf/mafia games I played in used the "in case of tie, whomever got to that number of votes first is the lynch" ... which would have left me to hang in this game. A *very small* number used what I call the Bloody Sunday rule - on tie for lynch, lynch both. That rarer variant *in this case* would have given the wolf team a much better chance of success.
    Last edited by Helgraf; 2020-09-14 at 03:38 PM.
    Catatar made for me many years ago ... pretty sure by banjo1985
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  14. - Top - End - #224
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Final Fantasy Guild Mafia

    I didn't see many ways for this to not end on the next day. With the info I assumed town would try to kill Elenna and Jeen.

    The only thing that could have drawn it out is maybe if Elenna had been lynched first and had managed to shoot the black Mage. Then it would have taken at least an extra day. Still probably would have ended in town victory.

  15. - Top - End - #225
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Xihirli's Avatar

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy Guild Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    Yeah, the idea of not having designated traitor roles seems fun, and I'd be down to play with this ruleset again. Wolves just had some bad luck and some bad decisions this game.
    The inherent issue I see with this sort of game is that wolves have fewer numbers, so their powers don't go quite as far once villagers stop shooting blindly. In all-PR games, wolves often get stronger powers to offset the difference, but in this case that's far from guaranteed. Though that's ultimately not why the game was decided so soon.
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Zar Peter View Post
    Supagoof took the most blows and incidentally took exactly the same damage Xihirli inflicted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silent_Interim View Post
    Xihirli: Being a better target since 2015.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    Xihirli, bastion of murder and betrayal.
    Quote Originally Posted by BasketOfPuppies View Post
    Wow I missed a lot today. So, kill Xihirli?
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceseer View Post
    I really wanted what Xihirli said to be true though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowblaze View Post
    You can trust her to be completely insane; and probably to backstab you.
    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed View Post
    I still prefer to see you as the dagger hanging over us all, Xi.

  16. - Top - End - #226
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy Guild Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Helgraf View Post
    I narrowed the list to Elenna, Valmark, and Kinro; once day ended, I responded to a QT with Cao; threw what I had to them. We went with Elenna as my night 2 scry, and apparently blackmage nuked Valmark, taking another name off the list (albiet they turned out town).

    Then morning happened, and Beastmaster (unbeknownst to me, as the two people I was in contact with were wisely not giving me role information since I hadn't yet pinged a traitor to establish myself) having tracked Jean the prior night ... well, all the puzzle pieces basically fell into place this morning.
    Yeah, Outsider had all of the info but we kept pretty much everyone in the dark like that. Really glad you had Elenna in your list (Dark Knight would be a pain to deal with) and we were already planning to kill Valmark to get info on them.

    We just got lucky seeing 2 Wolves instead of 1.

  17. - Top - End - #227
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Final Fantasy Guild Mafia

    Since the "random wolf roles" thing seems to have interested so many people, I may look at some things, adapt a few rules, and try running a game like this again.

  18. - Top - End - #228
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AvatarVecna's Avatar

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy Guild Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    Since the "random wolf roles" thing seems to have interested so many people, I may look at some things, adapt a few rules, and try running a game like this again.
    If I were offering advice for how to change things up for future games:

    1) Powers that switch around another player's targeting can be a giant pain to deal with for both teams. I know we happened to not have those this time - just getting in my two cents.

    2) It didn't end up mattering this game, but in general I've personally grown less than fond of powers that screw with the vote totals - a single one in play isn't too bad, but too many and it makes it hard to read the wagons in-the-moment and after-the-fact. Making it unclear why the lynch happened the way it did is rough on both teams. If I were suggesting some alternative power for the thief, I'd suggest a Void power - the opposite of the Dragoon, where instead of being untargetable, the Thief makes one person unable to target at all. This is a different kinda power from what I discussed above - it still allows the targeting to occur, and makes it clear to the targeted player that their power was blocked, but it's a bit less invasive.


    Currently Recruiting: Nothing. Maybe come start one?

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  19. - Top - End - #229
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy Guild Mafia

    Well glad that worked out.

    Town definitely got really lucky this game in some ways, but I think this continues to show the power of open roles and PMs even if we can't initially be certain on alignments.

  20. - Top - End - #230
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy Guild Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    The only thing that could have drawn it out is maybe if Elenna had been lynched first and had managed to shoot the black Mage.
    Can confirm you would have ended up killing me instead by mistake, unless I was blocked somehow.

  21. - Top - End - #231
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Caerulea's Avatar

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy Guild Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by BellaAlice View Post
    Wow That's great and I want to take part as well.
    Cool. A game is currently in progress, but you can see when the next one starts recruiting in this thread. (It's pinned to the top of Structured Games).
    Non caerulea sum, Caerulea nomen meus est.
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  22. - Top - End - #232
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AvatarVecna's Avatar

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy Guild Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    Cool. A game is currently in progress, but you can see when the next one starts recruiting in this thread. (It's pinned to the top of Structured Games).
    The person in question has joined the forum within the past day, posted in a few places only, one of which was attempting to link to another site, and their signature was an add for ringtones written in Spanish. Given that their posts (indeed, their account) is now gone, I suspect they were an adbot random-posting to get around the forum's 10-post limit before you can post proper links.The second such "person" to comment on this thread in the past two weeks, actually.

    It's not always the case, but it happens on occasion.


    Currently Recruiting: Nothing. Maybe come start one?

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  23. - Top - End - #233
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Caerulea's Avatar

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy Guild Mafia

    Oh. Well, no harm done anyway.
    Non caerulea sum, Caerulea nomen meus est.
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