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    Default On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    Just something I wrote as a reply to another thread that folks found useful.

    Color Key:
    :D Optimal Option.
    :) Good Option.
    :| Okay Option.
    :( Relatively Weak Option.


    Multiclassing for Wizards


    Cleric
    Cleric is a good dip for Wizards because it gives you armor + shield proficiency, an expanded spell list, 3 extra spells prepared (with a 14 Wis), 3 extra cantrips known (including the particularly valuable Guidance), and a subclass ability, all while keeping your slot progression intact.

    Forge Domain 1: A +1 to AC, or a +1 to attack and damage for an ally. Great deal, unless you're in a game where you expect everyone's going to have +1 armor, shields, and weapons sooner rather than later (because it doesn't stack).

    Life Domain 1 + Mark of Healing: This one is really good if you're playing a Mark of Healing Halfling. It's what makes your Aura of Vitality heal 120 hit points and all that good stuff. Other Cleric choices aren't even close for a Jorasco halfling. For a non-Jorasco halfling, it can still boost some things (Life Transference, Vampiric Touch, Healing Word, Cure Wounds, perhaps most notably Soul Cage), but... eh.

    War 1: The only Wizard subclass that might care about this extra attack is the Bladesinger, and they can't benefit from the armor or shield.

    Arcana 1: If you felt 8 cantrips wasn't enough, this'll get you two more. There really are enough good cantrips on the Wizard list that this isn't just a waste.

    Order 1: Every single spell you cast that targets an ally allows them to get a reaction attack. Remember that yes, contrary to a common misconception, characters in an AoE count as targets by both RAW and dev-stated RAI and yes, if you're an Evoker Sculpting around allies, it still triggers this.

    Nature 1: If you want extra cantrips known, Arcana is better. There's just nothing you really want on the Druid list.

    Death 1: Toll the Dead is one of the best attack cantrips, and this'll let you twin it at will. What's not to love?

    Grave 1: Not good for you. Even if you wanted to be a healer Wizard, this isn't even close to being as good as the Life Cleric dip.

    Knowledge 1: 2 extra proficiencies, and Expertise in them, which officially gives you as much proficiency and Expertise as a Rogue... before you cast Guidance and just completely blow them out of the water. That, plus the fact that you're maxing your Int, means this makes you very good indeed at whichever knowledge checks you pick. Don't forget all the things that those skills do; for example, Arcana can be used to detect and disarm magic traps.

    Tempest 2: 2-3 modest reactions isn't worthless, but it's not worth a whole lot either. If you're taking this, it's probably because at some point you want to take Tempest level 2 and start maximizing some lightning/thunder damage. An exception to the usual rule where you don't really want to consider Cleric 2.

    Trickery 1: Basically allows you to give someone Advantage on stealth all day every day. That's pretty handy if anyone in your party (or even just your familiar) likes to use Stealth.

    Light 1: The ability to inflict Disadvantage on attacks as a reaction 2-3 times a day (depending on your Wisdom) might seem attractive, but it makes a smaller mathematical difference than you might think. Since it has to be declared before you know if the attack hits or misses, there's a high mathematical chance of it being wasted. The chance of the enemy missing you without Disadvantage, plus the chance of the enemy hitting you despite it, adds up to the chance of the ability being wasted. Turns out that this doesn't get much better or worse regardless of your AC, since a high AC makes them more likely to miss regardless, while a low one makes them more likely hit regardless. It also can only affect a single attack, and means you can't use a heavier duty reaction like Shield or Counterspell later in the turn if needed.

    Artificer 1
    So on the one hand, Artificer gives you Medium Armor+Shield, Con save proficiency, full slot progression, 2 extra cantrips (one of which is Guidance), and 5 spells prepared from the Artificer spell list (assuming we max Int). And a small ribbon.

    On the other hand, we've got a problem: Artificers must have their tools in hand when casting Artificer spells, even if they multiclass. Unlike other classes, you can't just use a component pouch. If your DM's a stickler for components this can be a pain in the rear, unless you have a workaround like Warcaster or Ruby of the War Mage or something.

    So, Artificer 1 is thin on class features, so its value is going to come down to that Artificer Spell List it's adding (and how much you like Con saves over Wis; personally I like getting both and usually want the +1 Con from the half-feat more). All but 4 of those spells are already on the Wizard list, but at least you're getting extra prep slots for them. Of those 4, the only really notable one is Int-based Sanctuary, which is pretty good on a class that has so many non-damaging ways to contribute to combat. But there's still the component issue.

    Overall I lean towards Cleric or Hexblade being the better Wizard dip, but this is still quite good if you can deal with the focus issue.

    Fighter 2
    As far as 1-level armor dips go, Fighter is perhaps the least attractive. Oh sure, you can get the Defense style for another +1 AC, but you could have gotten +1 AC from Forge Cleric. And sure, you get Second Wind, but let's face it, that's worth less than slot progression.

    So if you go Fighter 1, it's probably because you eventually plan to take Fighter 2. Unlike Quicken Spell, Action Surge will let you cast more than one spell per turn, making for some mean novas, but at the cost of setting you a full 2 levels behind on your casting progression. I usually would rather have the spells, but it's by no means a bad route, especially if you have few encounters per short/long rest.

    You can take it at Tier 4 as a sort of alternate capstone, or you can do something like Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / Fighter 2 / Wizard X.

    Hexblade 1
    The Hexblade is a fantastic dip for almost everything, and the Wizard is certainly no exception. It'll get you two spells known / always prepared (I usually recommend Armor of Agathys + Shield. Why Shield even though Wizards already know it? Because I'd rather prepare an extra Wizard spell every day than know another Warlock spell), a regenerating level 1 spell slot, medium armor + shield, Wis/Cha proficiency (basically meaning you have a decent bonus in all 3 mental saves), and Hexblade's Curse (which is really good for Wizard damage combos, especially for Evokers).

    Please don't take Eldritch Blast when you dip Warlock as a Wizard. I know you've heard that it's a good cantrip from internet memes, but it's only a good cantrip if you take the invocations and max Cha, neither of which is in any way remotely worth it for you. Good things are only good in their appropriate synergistic contexts. Otherwise they suck.

    Hexblade 2 + Abjurer
    Getting the second level of Abjurer will allow you to freely regenerate your Arcane Ward with Armor of Shadows, along with getting you an extra regenerating spell slot for Shields and another Invocation.

    Rogue 2
    Cunning Action is attractive, but if you want that playstyle you can just play a Goblin and do it as a single classed Wizard. Better to have a race without an Int bonus than take 2 levels of Rogue.

    Sorcerer 3
    A dash of Metamagic isn't good enough to be worth deviating 3 levels from your Wizard progression, IMHO. Quicken is similarly expensive to using spells that give you good bonus actions. Twinned Banish might seem fancy but you could have done multi-target disables for similar resource investment (and you'll never be able to use it on a spell higher than 3rd level because of your SP limit). Careful is frustratingly finicky with what it actually works with. Empower is efficient, but not efficient enough to deal with the fact that you're upcasting spells rather than knowing the higher level ones. The only thing that's difficult to replicate here is Subtle and you might even be surprised on the tricks available on that front.

    Seriously, just having a Simulacrum is better than most of the things that Metamagic does. So why delay getting one? Even if you're considering taking this at 17, after you've got your 9th level spells known, you're still looking at giving up Spell Mastery, a feat, and Signature Spells, not to mention carrying around that Cha 13 investment for the rest of your career, all for what, a little bit of metamagic at only level 20?

    Paladin 2:
    I suppose I could see this going with a Bladesinger, but the armor proficiency won't stack with Bladesong and you'll need 13 Str and Cha to qualify. And other Wizards are unlikely to find the smiting particularly valuable.

    Ranger 1:

    Pretty much anything else is a better way to get medium armor + shield proficiency.

    Druid 1:
    It's like an inferior Cleric dip with a 'fun' discussion about metal armor attached.

    Monk 1:
    No, Unarmored Defense doesn't stack with any of your stuff and Martial Arts is worthless.

    Barbarian 1:
    You're joking, right? You can already get Resistance to, or outright 'nope,' many attacks, but you want Rage? You want to slow down your casting progression and invest in 13 Strength in order to get something that turns off your ability to cast spells while active?

    Bard 1:
    Just doesn't offer as much from a dip as other casting classes do.


    Staying Single Class
    There's an immense amount of value in an uninterrupted Wizard casting progression, and you should think carefully about whether it's worth it to ever deviate from that. New players often dramatically underestimate just how good Wizard spell progression is, simply because they don't know how to use even a tiny fraction of its tools to their potential. You can grow in power immensely as a Wizard just by adjusting your mindset and thinking a bit more about how various spells can be put to their best uses. It really is a class where one skilled player can legitimately defeat an entire party of other players using an identical build. If you ever feel like you're underperforming as a Wizard, the first thing you should be examining is your tactics.

    Some races even will even give you the benefit of medium armor + shield while single classed. Hobgoblin is the best at this, since it lets you start 17 Con / 16 Int (and bump the Con to 18 when you get Resilient), and gives you the really excellent Save Face ability (which is worth nearly as much as the Lucky feat on its own), and you can just grab Moderately Armored with your first ASI. Variant Human is second best at this; simply by taking Lightly Armored + Moderately Armored it can get +2 Dex / +1 Int / +1 Con / Medium and Shield by the same point that Hobgoblin would get +2 Con / +1 Int / +1 Dex / Medium and Shield. Mountain Dwarf is actually relatively poor at this, since it's an ASI behind due to lack of Int bonus, and has no shield proficiency -- by the time it catches up to the VHuman in Intelligence, the VHuman will have Medium Armor and Shield. Githyanki is fairly similar to Mountain Dwarf, but without the movement speed penalty, and trading +2 Con for +1 Int, and Poison Resistance for some nifty spells (including a componentless Misty Step).

    If you're a race that gets armor proficiency, there's less reason to multiclass.

    Some races that don't grant you armor can confer significant defensive benefits as well. Warforged and Simic Hybrid won't give you armor, but will give you a straight AC boost which is enough to make your AC about as good as a Mountain Dwarf's would be anyway (and can stack with armor if you get it from multiclassing). Mark of Warding Dwarf won't give you armor either, but gives you a suite of potent abilities which synergizes especially well with the Abjurer (though it's great with other classes too). Svirfneblin will let you endlessly regenerate an Arcane Ward with the Svirfneblin Magic feat. Yuan-Ti will get you Magic Resistance and Immunity to a common damage type and condition, and its Cha/Int statline, normally considered antisynergistic, is just gravy for a Hexblade/Wizard combo. Winged Feral Tieflings can fly. Goblins can just Hide as a bonus action after casting every turn, in addition to some other nifty benefits. Mark of Healing Halflings combined with a Life Cleric 1 dip transform Wizards into one of the best healers in the game.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2020-09-14 at 09:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
    An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds | Comprehensive DPR Calculator | Monster Resistance Data

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    I was hoping for a discussion of 6+ level multiclasses :(


    True, they won’t be as good at wizarding, but some combos work better than others, and there are breakpoints to think of (ek7/ab13 vs ek11/abj9; at11/bs9 vs at18/bs2, etc).

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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    1 level of Knowledge Cleric is my "go-to" dip for Wizards. The Medium Armor and shields is nice, but I especially like, on a high intelligence character like a Wizard, being able to get expertise in skills like Arcana and History and then support that with Guidance. It really helps in turning the Wizard into the know-it-all they were meant to be.

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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    A few additions:

    Dragon Sorcerer 1:
    Con Save proficiency
    13+ Dex AC fix
    Extra cantrips
    Extra spells

    Rogue 1:
    Expertise - Great Boost to investigation and arcana
    *If you start rogue you get a little extra hp and an additional skill. Typically better as a mid game dip (once proficiency bonus is up to +3 or +4.

    Fighter 1:
    Heavy Armor + Shields
    Defensive Fighting Style
    Con Saves
    2nd wind for self healing a bit
    It's really hard to pass up 21 AC and con saves on a wizard

    Mastermind Rogue 3:
    Wizards don't regularly use bonus actions. This gives you bonus action help. Also pairs very well with bladesinger.
    Rogue movement skills are nice. (Bonus action hide can be amazing)
    Expertise is very nice too

    Fighter 5 / wizard X works really well. Shadow Blade does a great job of powering the builds damage.
    Last edited by Frogreaver; 2020-09-09 at 10:41 PM.

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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    Thanks for the feedback. My thoughts on these:

    Quote Originally Posted by cutlery View Post
    I was hoping for a discussion of 6+ level multiclasses :(


    True, they won’t be as good at wizarding, but some combos work better than others, and there are breakpoints to think of (ek7/ab13 vs ek11/abj9; at11/bs9 vs at18/bs2, etc).
    I guess I personally mentally categorize those more as "Eldritch Knight builds" and "Arcane Trickster builds" than "Wizard builds." But there's definitely stuff to discuss there. Perhaps something I'll cover in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver
    Fighter 1:
    Heavy Armor + Shields
    Defensive Fighting Style
    Con Saves
    2nd wind for self healing a bit
    It's really hard to pass up 21 AC and con saves on a wizard
    I talked about this one a bit under the 'Fighter 2' section. It's a good dip, though I generally would take Cleric 1 or Hexblade 1 instead if I wasn't planning to eventually get Fighter 2. It is however easier to qualify for than they are.

    I'd rate it Green-Blue. Edit: By that I mean I think it's Blue if you're planning to go to 2, and lower otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    Dragon Sorcerer 1:
    Con Save proficiency
    13+ Dex AC fix
    Extra cantrips
    Extra spells
    I can't see myself rating this as anything above Orange -- it grants fewer 'extra spells' than other dips, and those dips grant armor/shield. 13+Dex AC, especially with an extra 13 Cha requirement on your statline (so it's harder to afford secondary/tertiary stats), is only worth approx. 1x L1 spell slot spent on Mage Armor. Which just leaves Con proficiency (which you can get from Artificer or Fighter).

    I don't regard Constitution save proficiency as that much better than Wisdom save proficiency (and I regard both better than Dex proficiency). I regard Int and Cha saves as better than Strength. There's some productive discussion of how good each save is in this thread.

    - I'll often want to take Resilient in whichever of Con or Wis I don't have proficiency in, and Res(Con) is better than Res(Wis). That's because the +1 Con (hit points) is worth more than the +1 Wis (you're not gonna have more Perception than your familiar regardless).
    - If you fail a Wisdom, Intelligence, or Charisma save, it often means losing your concentration, your actions, and possibly even turning on your team and spending all your resources going nova on them. Constitution saves are somewhat more common, but the consequences are generally less severe.
    - Con saves aren't the only way to protect your Concentration. The better you get at playing a Wizard, the harder it is to successfully target you with attacks in the first place, particularly as an armored Wizard. And the less your game will be thrown off on the occasion that you do fail one. Basically the better I got at the class, the less I needed to make Con saves in the first place (even though the encounters kept getting Deadlier relative to my level).
    - If you're multiclassing it slows down your ASIs -- which means you get Resilient (or any other feats) a little later.

    Constitution save proficiency is nice if it's on the way to something else you want, but I wouldn't multiclass just to get it -- it takes quite a lot to be worth slowing down access to higher level spells, IMHO.

    Rogue 1:
    Expertise - Great Boost to investigation and arcana
    *If you start rogue you get a little extra hp and an additional skill. Typically better as a mid game dip (once proficiency bonus is up to +3 or +4.
    That sounds like Knowledge Cleric 1 without the spell progression or armor. I wouldn't take it unless I was planning to get to at least Rogue 2.

    Mastermind Rogue 3:
    Wizards don't regularly use bonus actions. This gives you bonus action help. Also pairs very well with bladesinger.
    Rogue movement skills are nice. (Bonus action hide can be amazing)
    While Wizards may not use their bonus action every single round, they still have a lot of very good ones -- more and more as the game goes on. And any Wizard/Rogue is going to have an additional competitive bonus action on top of that: Cunning Action.

    Where is this gonna fit into a build? Take the 3 Rogue levels at the start and you aren't getting an ASI until 7 or 3rd level spells until 8. Take them at 17 and you're trading Spell Mastery, Signature Spells, and an ASI for this.

    I just am not really seeing the allure of Mastermind here.

    Fighter 5 / wizard X works really well. Shadow Blade does a great job of powering the builds damage.
    At that point why not be an EK 7+ or a Bladesinger?
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2020-09-11 at 12:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
    An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds | Comprehensive DPR Calculator | Monster Resistance Data

    Nerull | Wee Jas | Olidammara | Erythnul | Hextor | Corellon Larethian | Lolth | The Deep Ones

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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    This so much this the wizard spell list is just that strong. Hence why this is my favorite way to distribute my levels when i play a wizard.

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    Staying Single Class
    [/SIZE][/SIZE]There's an immense amount of value in an uninterrupted Wizard casting progression, and you should think carefully about whether it's worth it to ever deviate from that. New players often dramatically underestimate just how good Wizard spell progression is, simply because they don't know how to use even a tiny fraction of its tools to their potential. You can grow in power immensely as a Wizard just by adjusting your mindset and thinking a bit more about how various spells can be put to their best uses. It really is a class where one skilled player can legitimately defeat an entire party of other players using an identical build. If you ever feel like you're underperforming as a Wizard, the first thing you should be examining is your tactics.

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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    Excellent points. I recently made a nuclear wizard, but due to "table" reasons, I decided with my DM friend to change it, so I converted it to a straight wizard. I miss terribly the 2 extra cantrips, I love having a ton of them, mostly because I consider Mage Hand and Prestidigitation mandatory (what kind of a wizard uses flint and steel or washes his clothes, or use a ladder to pick a book from the top shelf? Let's not talk about crap and cold meals. Come on...) and I'm highly addicted to Shape Water and Mold Earth, because they are fun.

    Can you live without an attack cantrip at level 7? It's certainly possible. MM is still there, so is Fireball, everything else is utility or control. Maybe at 8 I'll do something about it, who knows?
    I have only martials in my group, damage is hardly a problem (healing is, but that's another story).

    I consider Artificer an excellent choice (I play a gnome, so double that because of the stereotypical tinkering gnome): you can get Mage Hand and Guidance from that list and in a group like mine, Faerie Fire and Cure Wounds would be really useful.

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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    Quote Originally Posted by Miele View Post
    Excellent points. I recently made a nuclear wizard, but due to "table" reasons, I decided with my DM friend to change it, so I converted it to a straight wizard. I miss terribly the 2 extra cantrips, I love having a ton of them, mostly because I consider Mage Hand and Prestidigitation mandatory (what kind of a wizard uses flint and steel or washes his clothes, or use a ladder to pick a book from the top shelf? Let's not talk about crap and cold meals. Come on...) and I'm highly addicted to Shape Water and Mold Earth, because they are fun.

    Can you live without an attack cantrip at level 7? It's certainly possible. MM is still there, so is Fireball, everything else is utility or control. Maybe at 8 I'll do something about it, who knows?
    I have only martials in my group, damage is hardly a problem (healing is, but that's another story).

    I consider Artificer an excellent choice (I play a gnome, so double that because of the stereotypical tinkering gnome): you can get Mage Hand and Guidance from that list and in a group like mine, Faerie Fire and Cure Wounds would be really useful.
    What are your favorite uses of Shape Water and Mold Earth?
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
    An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds | Comprehensive DPR Calculator | Monster Resistance Data

    Nerull | Wee Jas | Olidammara | Erythnul | Hextor | Corellon Larethian | Lolth | The Deep Ones

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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post

    I talked about this one a bit under the 'Fighter 2' section. It's a good dip, though I generally would take Cleric 1 or Hexblade 1 instead if I wasn't planning to eventually get Fighter 2. It is however easier to qualify for than they are.

    I'd rate it Green-Blue.
    Judging from your stance on saves - the only major benefit this multiclass is giving you is 21 AC. If all it really takes to get to blue green is 21 AC that tells me where your priorities are. Those aren't the same priorities I share.

    I can't see myself rating this as anything above Orange -- it grants fewer 'extra spells' than other dips, and those dips grant armor/shield. 13+Dex AC, especially with an extra 13 Cha requirement on your statline (so it's harder to afford secondary/tertiary stats), is only worth approx. 1x L1 spell slot spent on Mage Armor. Which just leaves Con proficiency (which you can get from Artificer or Fighter).
    The only major difference in this and the hexblade/cleric dip is the amount of AC achieved. Another great example of how a +3/4 AC difference is all that is required to go from orange to blue.

    I don't regard Constitution save proficiency as that much better than Wisdom save proficiency (and I regard both better than Dex proficiency). I regard Int and Cha saves as better than Strength. There's some productive discussion of how good each save is in this thread.
    And that is the crux of why you don't value these two multiclasses. The general consensus AFAIK is that Con save proficiency is much better than wisdom for a caster.

    - I'll often want to take Resilient in whichever of Con or Wis I don't have proficiency in, and Res(Con) is better than Res(Wis). That's because the +1 Con (hit points) is worth more than the +1 Wis (you're not gonna have more Perception than your familiar regardless).
    I'm not seeing this argument. It's not about hp vs perception. It's that it's a fake bonus to hp / perception. Typically to make your stats work you will be sitting your stat down by 1 so resilient will boost it to where it would have been without it - essentially granting you a few points in tertiary ASI's.

    ***There are probably a few builds that can get 15 con and then actually boost their hp with resilient con.

    - If you fail a Wisdom, Intelligence, or Charisma save, it often means losing your concentration, your actions, and possibly even turning on your team and spending all your resources going nova on them. Constitution saves are somewhat more common, but the consequences are generally less severe.
    The most common Wisdom Saves of those are fear and charm effects. Those effects barely impact a caster at all. Failing a Wisdom save can be nasty. Losing concentration on say a hypnotic pattern can be nasty as well and is much more likely to occur.

    - Con saves aren't the only way to protect your Concentration. The better you get at playing a Wizard, the harder it is to successfully target you with attacks in the first place, particularly as an armored Wizard. And the less your game will be thrown off on the occasion that you do fail one. Basically the better I got at the class, the less I needed to make Con saves in the first place (even though the encounters kept getting Deadlier relative to my level).
    That's one reason I wouldn't value extremely AC nearly as much as you do. Positioning and clever play is often enough to prevent many attacks upon you. If your not being attacked much then high AC is a bit redundant. However, you can still be crit or be in an AOE attack and in those instances the con saves really matter.

    - If you're multiclassing it slows down your ASIs -- which means you get Resilient (or any other feats) a little later.

    Constitution save proficiency is nice if it's on the way to something else you want, but I wouldn't multiclass just to get it -- it takes quite a lot to be worth slowing down access to higher level spells, IMHO.
    The trend I'm seeing is that the only thing you really value in a wizard multiclass is high AC.

    That sounds like Knowledge Cleric 1 without the spell progression or armor. I wouldn't take it unless I was planning to get to at least Rogue 2.
    Alas, no investigation which is maybe the more important of those 2 skills.

    While Wizards may not use their bonus action every single round, they still have a lot of very good ones -- more and more as the game goes on. And any Wizard/Rogue is going to have an additional competitive bonus action on top of that: Cunning Action.

    Where is this gonna fit into a build? Take the 3 Rogue levels at the start and you aren't getting an ASI until 7 or 3rd level spells until 8. Take them at 17 and you're trading Spell Mastery, Signature Spells, and an ASI for this.

    I just am not really seeing the allure of Mastermind here.
    If your concern is that the mastermind isn't better than a single classed wizard I think we can stop talking multiclassing wizards, because i've yet to see any that is actually better. I've seen a few relatively comparable wizard multiclasses - but nothing flat out better.

    The Allure of mastermind is that you can pair it with bladesinger. Essentially giving you some extra sneak attack damage while also being able to grant an ally advantage. Throw in expertise and cunning action and I don't see how this isn't a solid dip.

    At that point why not be an EK 7+ or a Bladesinger?
    Faster progression to higher level wizard spells (better utility) while also having superiority dice for precision attack, trip attack and riposte which offer tons of damage for a 3d8+mod+2 damage weapon.
    Last edited by Frogreaver; 2020-09-10 at 08:59 PM.

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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    If all it really takes to get to blue green is 21 AC that tells me where your priorities are.
    So you think that something with 15 AC and Con saves should be Green, but when I say something with 21 AC and Con saves is green (blue if you're going into Action Surge), you have a problem?

    The only major difference in this and the hexblade/cleric dip is the amount of AC achieved.
    No, that is not the only major difference between a Hexblade or Cleric dip and a Sorcerer 1 dip.

    Dragon Sorc increases spells prepped by 1. Cleric increases it by quadruple that.

    Dragon Sorc has nothing of note on its list that a Wizard doesn't already have access to. Cleric gets stuff like Bless and Guidance and Healing Word and domain picks and more.

    The clerics that I rated above orange (e.g. what you apparently believe Sorc 1 deserves) are also granting some other major benefit too, like twinning all your TtDs or giving you as many skill proficiencies and Expertise as a Rogue.

    Your Sorcerer dip is doing none of these things, AND has a significantly lower AC, and you apparently want it to get the same rating pretty much on the back of Con proficiency and saving a single Mage Armor slot. I'm sorry but that's just not good enough to make you one of the best Wizard dips in the game.

    The Hexblade difference is even bigger, since it has features that are key to some of the strongest builds in the entire game, like the Nuclear Wizard or Curse/Ret Abjurer.

    The general consensus AFAIK
    No, there is not a general consensus that Con saves are so much better than Wis that they make a Sorcerer 1 dip as good as a Cleric or Hexblade dip.

    In fact, pretty much every time it comes up on the forum people will argue about whether Wis or Con saves are better (see for instance how many people rate Wisdom as the best save, or tied with Con, or very close to Con in this thread). I think Con saves are a little better, but not by enough that it single-handedly justifies a top multiclass rating, especially when you're making other significant tradeoffs (see below). That's just... no. You can get your Con proficiency from Fighter, Artificer, or just being single classed and taking Res(Con). And their additional benefits will make your Concentration far sturdier than the Sorc 1 dip's.

    I'm not seeing this argument. It's not about hp vs perception. It's that it's a fake bonus to hp / perception. Typically to make your stats work you will be sitting your stat down by 1 so resilient will boost it to where it would have been without it - essentially granting you a few points in tertiary ASI's.
    Let's see how this 'fake hp bonus' hypothesis holds up for your Dragon Sorcerer suggestion, shall we?

    Say you want to have your Dragon Sorcerer dip, and you have a +2 primary / +1 secondary race. You can't afford 16 Con / Int / Dex and 13 Cha, so you have to sacrifice something.

    Even just 16 Con / 16 Int / 14 Dex / 13 Cha is still too expensive, costing 28/27 points. You still have to sacrifice something. Guess we're going down to 14 Con / 16 Int / 14 Dex / 13 Cha.

    Meanwhile let's look at Mr. Cleric over here. He can afford 14 Dex / 15 Con / 16 Int / 13 Wis, then bump with Res(Con) for a very much not fake HP advantage.

    Meanwhile let's look at Mr. Single Class Wizard over here. He can go 16 Dex / 15 Con / 16 Int / 10 Wis, and bump up to 16 Con via Res too. He could even afford to go VHuman and start 16/16/16 with Con proficiency. Which incidentally means he has 16 AC with Mage Armor to the Dragon Sorc's 15, in addition to the HP advantage and faster spell progression.

    The trend I'm seeing is that the only thing you really value in a wizard multiclass is high AC.
    If that were true, I wouldn’t have rated Ranger and some of the Cleric dips red.

    In order to get a blue rating you need to be bringing something to the table that makes it worth considering comparable to a single-classed Wizard.

    You seem to admit that your suggestions don't meet the criteria but seem to think they are entitled to that rating anyways... somehow.

    If your concern is that the mastermind isn't better than a single classed wizard I think we can stop talking multiclassing wizards, because i've yet to see any that is actually better. I've seen a few relatively comparable wizard multiclasses - but nothing flat out better.
    My concern was that it’s not better than Rogue 2.

    Also, it's ironic that you say this -- you've seen a few relatively comparable Wizard multiclasses, but nothing flat out better. Yep, that's why Single Classed Wizard and the top Wizard multiclasses have the same rating. If you don't think it's one of those 'comparable Wizard multiclasses' you shouldn't be arguing for it to be Blue.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2020-09-11 at 04:08 AM. Reason: added the bit about the HP bonus.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    What are your favorite uses of Shape Water and Mold Earth?
    In our current campaign, stranded on an island very far from civilization (X1 module from BECMI, The Isle of Dread), it was mostly a matter of survival, given that we're without divine spellcasters. So I filtered water (that we then had to purify by boiling it), excavating trenches for a defensible camp, I crumbled earth on some small cave entrances that were home to a primitive (stinky) race of humanoids to scare them away and make them leave the place, I made also lollipops with prestidigitation (*cough* can't be always doing only useful things, right?).

    When we had more time, I mixed earth, water and driftwood together with large leaves and made a 3 rooms house surrounded by a moat.

    Upon reaching level 7, at the end of our last session, I picked Fabricate as one of my spells. It's about time I started working in constructions, am I right? Dig up the terrain and build wooden houses!

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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    On the saves thing. It may be campaign dependent, but I think most of the Wis targeting abilities start appearing regularly around late tier 2. That means that even though you may WANT both, you probably want Con first.
    Balancing that a bit, of course, is the fact that before late tier 2 the proficiency bonus is useful, but not that big.

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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    As a general principle, large bumps in AC are better at protecting your Concentration than Constitution proficiency at low tiers.

    Like it is ~2-11x harder (based on enemy attack bonus/defensive spells used/etc) to break a 21 base AC Wizard's Concentration with <20 damage attacks than a 15 base AC / Con proficient Wizard's, if they have have the same Constitution score (which isn't even a safe assumption because that Sorc dip is a MAD lad). And by higher tiers you should just have Resilient anyways, at which point I'd rather have the +1 Con than +1 Wisdom from the half-feat.

    Yes, that Con proficiency will help you out against things that aren't attacks, but not on the order of 2-11x. It's more like 1.4-1.6x. So you're a little less vulnerable to losing Concentration to things like Fireball in exchange for being a little more vulnerable to losing Concentration (and burning your slots on allies) to, say, a Cambion's charm and a lot more vulnerable to losing Concentration (and your HP) to attack rolls.

    If you're multiclassing Sorcerer just for Con save proficiency then that's just not a great deal, especially since you could be getting that Con save proficiency from something like Artificer or Fighter instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miele View Post
    In our current campaign, stranded on an island very far from civilization (X1 module from BECMI, The Isle of Dread), it was mostly a matter of survival, given that we're without divine spellcasters. So I filtered water (that we then had to purify by boiling it), excavating trenches for a defensible camp, I crumbled earth on some small cave entrances that were home to a primitive (stinky) race of humanoids to scare them away and make them leave the place, I made also lollipops with prestidigitation (*cough* can't be always doing only useful things, right?).

    When we had more time, I mixed earth, water and driftwood together with large leaves and made a 3 rooms house surrounded by a moat.

    Upon reaching level 7, at the end of our last session, I picked Fabricate as one of my spells. It's about time I started working in constructions, am I right? Dig up the terrain and build wooden houses!
    Cool!
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2020-09-11 at 06:15 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    So you think that something with 15 AC and Con saves should be Green, but when I say something with 21 AC and Con saves is green (blue if you're going into Action Surge), you have a problem?
    No problem if you had actually said that ;) You said Fighter 1 was green-blue. I have no problem taking your clarification to be that you meant Fighter 1 was green and Fighter 2 was blue. Which does change the analysis somewhat.

    No, that is not the only major difference between a Hexblade or Cleric dip and a Sorcerer 1 dip.
    I disagree, but you didn't tell me what features you felt were substantial enough to consider.

    Really?

    Dragon Sorc increases spells prepped by 1. Cleric increases it by quadruple that.

    Dragon Sorc has nothing of note on its list that a Wizard doesn't already have access to. Cleric gets stuff like Bless and Guidance and Healing Word and domain picks and more.
    A 13 Wis Knowledge Cleric 1 can prep 2 spells and 2 from domain. Which would be triple that not quadruple. Still sounds good, except that the spells from the domain list aren't spells that are beneficial to have prepped. You get Command (nearly always a waste of a slot with 13 wis). You get identify which is a spell a wizard might have taken but would not need to have prepped. Essentially you get to take bless and healing word while the sorcerer takes shield and absorb elements.

    But since shield and absorb elements actually frees the Wizard from taking and prepping those spells he can instead prep useful higher level spells in their place. Early game having the best level 1 cleric spells is great. By level 5 I'm not sure Bless and Healing word actually compare to potentially being able to additionally prep fly and dispel magic.

    The clerics that I rated above orange (e.g. what you apparently believe Sorc 1 deserves) are also granting some other major benefit too, like twinning all your TtDs or giving you as many skill proficiencies and Expertise as a Rogue.
    I notice alot of your points are based on quantity instead of looking at the quality of what is granted. Knowledge skills are typically some of the worst to have expertise in and that's all the knowledge cleric can get expertise in.

    Your Sorcerer dip is doing none of these things, AND has a significantly lower AC, and you apparently want it to get the same rating pretty much on the back of Con proficiency and saving a single Mage Armor slot. I'm sorry but that's just not good enough to make you one of the best Wizard dips in the game.
    I'm still amazed here. I would have expected green. I mean if it instead got heavy armor and shields would you be rating it blue?

    The Hexblade difference is even bigger, since it has features that are key to some of the strongest builds in the entire game, like the Nuclear Wizard or Curse/Ret Abjurer.
    Doesn't apply to a level 1 hexblade, which you rated as blue...

    No, there is not a general consensus that Con saves are so much better than Wis that they make a Sorcerer 1 dip as good as a Cleric or Hexblade dip.
    You added a bunch of qualifiers that weren't what I said. The general consensus is that on casters con saves tend to be more important than Wis saves.

    In fact, pretty much every time it comes up on the forum people will argue about whether Wis or Con saves are better (see for instance how many people rate Wisdom as the best save, or tied with Con, or very close to Con in this thread). I think Con saves are a little better, but not by enough that it single-handedly justifies a top multiclass rating, especially when you're making other significant tradeoffs (see below). That's just... no. You can get your Con proficiency from Fighter, Artificer, or just being single classed and taking Res(Con). And their additional benefits will make your Concentration far sturdier than the Sorc 1 dip's.
    The fighter doesn't get additional spells known/prepped. He doesn't get additional cantrips. He doesn't get normal wizard spell slot progression. The only thing he has over the sorcerer is +4/5 AC.

    I would rate wisdom saves more important on non-casters. I would rate con saves more important on casters. Late game, say sometime in tier 3 - wisdom saves likely become more important on casters. The reason that question asked the way you are asking it doesn't get a consensus is because different game perspectives.

    Let's see how this 'fake hp bonus' hypothesis holds up for your Dragon Sorcerer suggestion, shall we?

    Say you want to have your Dragon Sorcerer dip, and you have a +2 primary / +1 secondary race. You can't afford 16 Con / Int / Dex and 13 Cha, so you have to sacrifice something.

    Even just 16 Con / 16 Int / 14 Dex / 13 Cha is still too expensive, costing 28/27 points. You still have to sacrifice something. Guess we're going down to 14 Con / 16 Int / 14 Dex / 13 Cha.

    Meanwhile let's look at Mr. Cleric over here. He can afford 14 Dex / 15 Con / 16 Int / 13 Wis, then bump with Res(Con) for a very much not fake HP advantage.

    Meanwhile let's look at Mr. Single Class Wizard over here. He can go 16 Dex / 15 Con / 16 Int / 10 Wis, and bump up to 16 Con via Res too. He could even afford to go VHuman and start 16/16/16 with Con proficiency. Which incidentally means he has 16 AC with Mage Armor to the Dragon Sorc's 15, in addition to the HP advantage and faster spell progression.
    I looked at a rock gnome. +2 Int/+1 con racials.

    The array for a cleric would look something like: 15/9/14/16/13/8. I don't see how you can get your arrays for any of the multiclass heavy armor clerics to have a 15 in con.

    Now if you drop to medium armor your array would be: 9/14/15/16/13/8. This is the instance you can hit that 15 con mark.

    In order to get a blue rating you need to be bringing something to the table that makes it worth considering comparable to a single-classed Wizard.

    You seem to admit that your suggestions don't meet the criteria but seem to think they are entitled to that rating anyways... somehow.
    If single classed wizard is your baseline, I'd argue none of the mutliclasses match it. I'm not arguing sorcerer should be blue but it definitely shouldn't be orange.

    My concern was that itÂ’s not better than Rogue 2.
    Why? It brings something unique to the table. Compared to a Rogue 2 it adds consistent action economy. It adds a little more at will damage on bladesingers. Is it better than single classed wizard? No. But neither is Rogue 2. Neither is anything IMO.
    Last edited by Frogreaver; 2020-09-11 at 07:53 AM.

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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    Cleric
    Cleric is a good dip for Wizards because it gives you armor + shield proficiency, an expanded spell list, 3 extra spells prepared (with a 14 Wis), 3 extra cantrips known (including the particularly valuable Guidance), and a subclass ability, all while keeping your slot progression intact.

    Forge Domain 1: A +1 to AC, or a +1 to attack and damage for an ally. Great deal, unless you're in a game where you expect everyone's going to have +1 armor, shields, and weapons sooner rather than later (because it doesn't stack).
    I really like Cleric. One point on Forge Domain they cannot enchant Shields. 'Blessing of the Forge' says Weapon or Armour only. The other thing I was going to mention was because of how Cleric Domains work you do not miss out on proficiency or spells if you take this at a later level.

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    Fighter 2
    You can take it at Tier 4 as a sort of alternate capstone, or you can do something like Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / Fighter 2 / Wizard X.
    Even if you delay the second level I would have thought you would want to take your First level as Fighter for the full proficiency?

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    Staying Single Class[/SIZE][/SIZE]
    There's an immense amount of value in an uninterrupted Wizard casting progression, and you should think carefully about whether it's worth it to ever deviate from that.
    Pure Wizards do not have to wait that extra level for power! My 'Normal' Human Wizard would get Res (Con) and start with 16/16/14/10/10/8. Maybe 16/16/14/12/8/8/ if I wanted to dump Strength and Charisma. (note clearly not shown in the order I would assign them).

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    Some races even will even give you the benefit of medium armor + shield while single classed. Hobgoblin is the best at this, since it lets you start 17 Con / 16 Int (and bump the Con to 18 when you get Resilient), and gives you the really excellent Save Face ability (which is worth nearly as much as the Lucky feat on its own), and you can just grab Moderately Armored with your first ASI. Variant Human is second best at this; simply by taking Lightly Armored + Moderately Armored it can get +2 Dex / +1 Int / +1 Con / Medium and Shield by the same point that Hobgoblin would get +2 Con / +1 Int / +1 Dex / Medium and Shield.
    I am not sure if you are using this as an example or actually suggesting a Wizard spends two ASI's on Getting AC 19 from Half-plate and Shield?

    If a standard Dex 16 Wizard spent two ASI's on Dex instead they would have AC 18 with Mage Armour as well as all the other advantages high Dex offers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    But since shield and absorb elements actually frees the Wizard from taking and prepping those spells he can instead prep useful higher level spells in their place. Early game having the best level 1 cleric spells is great. By level 5 I'm not sure Bless and Healing word actually compare to potentially being able to additionally prep fly and dispel magic.
    Which is a good point.

    On the Sorcerer 1 / Wizard 19 the best I can see for Point Buy would be Half Elf giving us S 8; D 16; C 12; I 16; W 9; Ch14

    For me you need the 16 Dex if you are going for Mage Armour rather than Medium Armour. Wisdom of nine means we are all set up for Res(Wis) at a later lavel.

    Divine Soul seems a much better pick though for a single level dip. You do not get the free casting of Mage Armour but you can pick from Cleric cantrips (Guidance) have 3, not 2, spells prepared and get an excellent saving throw bonus with 'Favoured by the Gods'. Con Save to Start and the extra skills from the Half-Elf to be the party Face.

    Now I certainly would not rate it Blue but I might put it at Green. You are making a clear trade off for having less than 14 Con but there are benefits.

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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyracian View Post
    Even if you delay the second level I would have thought you would want to take your First level as Fighter for the full proficiency?
    Yep.

    I am not sure if you are using this as an example or actually suggesting a Wizard spends two ASI's on Getting AC 19 from Half-plate and Shield?
    It illustrates that Mountain Dwarves are not very good at the thing that people think Mountain Dwarves are good at.

    You legitimately can use VHuman to do the Mountain Dwarf's thing better than they can. I'm not saying that that's how you should always or even usually use a VHuman, just pointing out that it's an option.

    Which is a good point.
    It'd be a much better point if the AC difference wasn't so great that they'd have better defenses even if they never prepared Shield.

    Like if number of prepared spells was actually that valuable relative to AC, the Cleric could forego prepping Shield entirely (don't actually do this) and still have better defenses than the Sorc. And then have 3-4 spells prepped like Healing Word etc to match against that Absorb Elements. And of course a good subclass ability.

    Divine Soul seems a much better pick though for a single level dip.
    I think so as well.

    Spoiler: Reply to Frogreaver
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver
    I have no problem taking your clarification to be that you meant Fighter 1 was green and Fighter 2 was blue. Which does change the analysis somewhat.
    Okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver
    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant
    The Hexblade difference is even bigger, since it has features that are key to some of the strongest builds in the entire game, like the Nuclear Wizard or Curse/Ret Abjurer.
    Doesn't apply to a level 1 hexblade, which you rated as blue...
    Uh, yes it does.

    The general consensus is that on casters con saves tend to be more important than Wis saves.
    This was, of course, not your original statement.

    Your original statement wasn't that the general consensus was Con is better than Wis. It was that the general consensus was that Con proficiency is much better than Wis proficiency, to the extent that it justifies your valuation of the Sorcerer 1 dip.

    The only thing he has over the sorcerer is +4/5 AC.
    This is untrue.

    The Fighter has...

    - A notably better stat line, since he's not a MAD lad like your Sorc dip. In fact, your Sorc is such a MAD lad that in order to get 16 Int/Dex and thus have the AC difference only be +4/5, he would need to drop his Constitution to 12 -- essentially putting him at -2 Con saves and -2 hp/level (and -2 hp/hit die on a short rest) relative to the Fighter/Wizard's likely statline.

    - 25.5 extra hit points over the course of a standard adventuring day, in addition to any hit point differences created by the MADness. A fair chunk that eases the lower tiers.

    And of course they have that large AC bonus which you keep handwaving like it's practically nothing, when it's straight up better than at-will Shield (because it stacks with Shield, and returns on AC scale in a very attractive nonlinear fashion).

    I don't see how you can get your arrays for any of the multiclass heavy armor clerics to have a 15 in con.
    For Cleric,
    8 Str / 17 Con / 16 Int is only 18 points on a Warding Dwarf.

    For Fighter,
    15 Str / 15 Con / 16 Int is only 23 point buy on the very race you mentioned.
    16 Str / 15 Con / 16 Int is 27 points on a VHuman.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2020-09-13 at 09:04 AM. Reason: Correction per Lyracian's post.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    It'd be a much better point if the AC difference wasn't so great that they'd have better defenses even if they never prepared Shield.
    Maybe we are not quite on the same page but clerics are going to start with AC 18 vs the Wizard on AC 16. I would not count two points as a great difference? I think you are talking about once a Cleric/Figher gets to Full Plate and Shield for 20-21 AC? At which point yes it is a permanent shield spell for them. Mostly commenting as I do not think it was clear what you are comparing.

    Minor point but
    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    15 Str / 15 Con / 16 Int is only 23 point buy on the very race you mentioned.
    16 Str / 15 Con / 16 Int is 27 points on a VHuman.
    are not going to work well for a multiclass heavy armor clerics as you need some Wisdom too. They are fine for the Fighter/Wizard though.
    Last edited by Lyracian; 2020-09-11 at 12:12 PM.

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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyracian View Post
    Minor point but

    15 Str / 15 Con / 16 Int is only 23 point buy on the very race you mentioned.
    16 Str / 15 Con / 16 Int is 27 points on a VHuman.

    are not going to work well for a multiclass heavy armor clerics as you need some Wisdom too. They are fine for the Fighter/Wizard though.
    You're right. Thanks for that.

    Edit: Edited in that correction.
    Edit2:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyracian View Post
    I think you are talking about once a Cleric/Figher gets to Full Plate and Shield for 20-21 AC? At which point yes it is a permanent shield spell for them.
    Yes, I was comparing once they get into their full armor.

    Though it's worth noting that the only way that the Dragon Sorc build is going to have 16 base AC with point buy is if they sacrifice Con or Int, due to their MADness.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2020-09-11 at 12:21 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyracian View Post
    I really like Cleric. One point on Forge Domain they cannot enchant Shields. 'Blessing of the Forge' says Weapon or Armour only. The other thing I was going to mention was because of how Cleric Domains work you do not miss out on proficiency or spells if you take this at a later level.

    Even if you delay the second level I would have thought you would want to take your First level as Fighter for the full proficiency?
    IMO, medium armor still tends to be better. Boosting Dex > Boosting Str. It also only takes 14 dex for medium armor vs 15 str for heavy which allows the other points to more easily be invested toward con and meeting multiclassing req. For example as a rock gnome (or high elf) you can do a 9/14/14/16/14/8. If you wanted to turn one of those 14's to a 15 you would need to drop one of the 14's to a 13.

    That's a solid statline for any medium armor class. Quite a bit nicer than the alternative one for heavy armor setups.


    On the Sorcerer 1 / Wizard 19 the best I can see for Point Buy would be Half Elf giving us S 8; D 16; C 12; I 16; W 9; Ch14

    For me you need the 16 Dex if you are going for Mage Armour rather than Medium Armour. Wisdom of nine means we are all set up for Res(Wis) at a later lavel.
    I'd probably have went 8/16/12/16/10/13 but essentially the same. I have no expectation I'll ever reach a point that I'll take resilient Wisdom. Thats level 12 or 13 with most of these builds.

    Divine Soul seems a much better pick though for a single level dip. You do not get the free casting of Mage Armour but you can pick from Cleric cantrips (Guidance) have 3, not 2, spells prepared and get an excellent saving throw bonus with 'Favoured by the Gods'. Con Save to Start and the extra skills from the Half-Elf to be the party Face. Now I certainly would not rate it Blue but I might put it at Green. You are making a clear trade off for having less than 14 Con but there are benefits.
    I think that mage armor is the most overrated spell ever. There's an extremely high probability that if you cast it that it will not even make 1 attack miss. You have to be attacked 7 times before it on average will make 1 attack miss. And it's not even guaranteed to last the whole adventuring day. You might need to use up to 3 slots on it. Much better early game to use the slots you would have used on mage armor on something else.

    That said, I have no issue with divine soul at all. I'd consider it on equal footing with dragon sorc and I'd be happy if they were both rated green.
    Last edited by Frogreaver; 2020-09-11 at 08:50 PM.

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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    The Dragon Sorc 1 dip is closer to the Bard than the Cleric. Light armor prof is roughly comparable to (or in some circumstances, better than) the dragon subclass armor. They both have the same MADness. Bard has twice as many extra spells known (though not quite as nice ones to prep). And they get to toss in a Bardic Inspiration and bonus skill proficiency and a pittance of extra hit points. They're just stuck with Dex/Cha instead of Con/Cha, but we've already established there are much better ways to grab that (like Artificer) so that's hardly owning an optimization niche, which is what's required to even be in the running for Green for me.

    In the 'get some extra cantrips and spells prepared' niche I'd recommend something like Arcana or Artificer instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    I have no expectation I'll ever reach a point that I'll take resilient Wisdom. Thats level 12 or 13 with most of these builds.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2020-09-11 at 11:20 PM.
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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    IMO, medium armor still tends to be better. Boosting Dex > Boosting Str. It also only takes 14 dex for medium armor vs 15 str for heavy which allows the other points to more easily be invested toward con and meeting multiclassing req. For example as a rock gnome (or high elf) you can do a 9/14/14/16/14/8. If you wanted to turn one of those 14's to a 15 you would need to drop one of the 14's to a 13. That's a solid statline for any medium armor class. Quite a bit nicer than the alternative one for heavy armor setups.
    I find it amusing how people always bring up that you need high strength for heavy armour. If you have 13 Dex you will have a lower AC in medium armour. If you have 13 Str you can stay in starting Chain mail (giving you the same AC 18 with a Shield as starting characters in Medium Armour and 14 Dex) or just accept having a lower movement speed when you wear Plate.

    If your game uses the Eboron book (I do not) there is also now the super powerful Warding Dwarf who is not slowed in Heavy Armour and gets an Int bonus. The other point is that any of these options that give you Heavy Armour proficiency also give you medium armour proficiency allowing you to mix and match as required. You never know what treasures you might find.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    I'd probably have went 8/16/12/16/10/13 but essentially the same. I have no expectation I'll ever reach a point that I'll take resilient Wisdom. Thats level 12 or 13 with most of these builds.
    Level 12-13 is going to be the end of most of the published campaigns so it would be come your capstone for the character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    I think that mage armor is the most overrated spell ever. There's an extremely high probability that if you cast it that it will not even make 1 attack miss. You have to be attacked 7 times before it on average will make 1 attack miss. And it's not even guaranteed to last the whole adventuring day.
    This is turning the discussion into how people play the game. If you are ambushed in the night you will not have your armour on. Sure +3 AC is only 15% shift on the d20 however you also have to look at the quantity of attacks that will hit you. With no bonus to the attack roll you are going from 40% hits to 25% hits. If you are willing to throw a Shield spell on top you can negate most of those hits as well.

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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyracian View Post
    I find it amusing how people always bring up that you need high strength for heavy armour. If you have 13 Dex you will have a lower AC in medium armour. If you have 13 Str you can stay in starting Chain mail (giving you the same AC 18 with a Shield as starting characters in Medium Armour and 14 Dex) or just accept having a lower movement speed when you wear Plate.

    If your game uses the Eboron book (I do not) there is also now the super powerful Warding Dwarf who is not slowed in Heavy Armour and gets an Int bonus. The other point is that any of these options that give you Heavy Armour proficiency also give you medium armour proficiency allowing you to mix and match as required. You never know what treasures you might find.
    Personally I wouldn't use heavy armor without the 15 investment into str. The movement penalty is too big a deal IMO. The alternative of medium armor and dex, with no move speed penalty and all the benefits of dex is simply better IMO.

    This is turning the discussion into how people play the game. If you are ambushed in the night you will not have your armour on. Sure +3 AC is only 15% shift on the d20 however you also have to look at the quantity of attacks that will hit you. With no bonus to the attack roll you are going from 40% hits to 25% hits. If you are willing to throw a Shield spell on top you can negate most of those hits as well.
    Maybe this will help. I evaluate mage armor so poorly that on a single class Wizard I don't take it. For most of the game there's simply more impactful things to do with my slots. I think talking about which options are better is mostly about how the game is played. I play my wizards such that they position themselves fairly safely. They take relatively few attacks in the first place. Don't get me wrong, 19+ AC is nice on a wizard - but so is 15/16 when it doesn't take spell slots.
    Last edited by Frogreaver; 2020-09-12 at 07:31 AM.

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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    Personally I wouldn't use heavy armor without the 15 investment into str. The movement penalty is too big a deal IMO. The alternative of medium armor and dex, with no move speed penalty and all the benefits of dex is simply better IMO.
    I used to play a lot of older edition rules where you were just slowed because you were wearing armour so that does not bother me. You can always downgrade to Ring Mail and still get better AC that the Sorcerer and no movement penalty allowing you ignore Strength and Dex if you want.

    Vuman Forge Cleric Wizard starting with Res(Con)
    Con 16; Int 16; Wis 14; then 10/10/8 for the other three in what ever way I want. You could even go 12/8/8 if I want a positive Dex adjustment.

    Blessing of the Forge, Ring Mail & Shield = AC 17. We still have Chain mail for AC 19 should we want it during some parts of the adventure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    Maybe this will help. I evaluate mage armor so poorly that on a single class Wizard I don't take it. For most of the game there's simply more impactful things to do with my slots. I think talking about which options are better is mostly about how the game is played. I play my wizards such that they position themselves fairly safely. They take relatively few attacks in the first place. Don't get me wrong, 19+ AC is nice on a wizard - but so is 15/16 when it doesn't take spell slots.
    We clearly play very different games. I find it strange that you value Mage Armour so little but maintain the Draconic Sorcerer is such a good choice for a Wizard multi-class. For me having a single, always on, first level spell does not make it stand out as better than the other Sorcerer origins or Cleric.

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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyracian View Post
    I used to play a lot of older edition rules where you were just slowed because you were wearing armour so that does not bother me. You can always downgrade to Ring Mail and still get better AC that the Sorcerer and no movement penalty allowing you ignore Strength and Dex if you want.
    You can also mitigate the movement penalty via Mobile feat or Longstrider (or Phantom Steed, or Dimension Door, etc.).

    Instead of going Dwarf so you can have a permanent -5' speed penalty, go variant human (Mobile) so you can have a fully normal 30' speed plus extra advantages when attacking (e.g. Booming Blade) or Dashing over difficult terrain.

    And you still have the option Lyracian mentioned of occasionally putting on Ring Mail instead to have 40' movement instead of 30', when movement speed is more important to you than AC.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-09-12 at 11:46 AM.

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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    You can also mitigate the movement penalty via Mobile feat or Longstrider (or Phantom Steed, or Dimension Door, etc.).

    Instead of going Dwarf so you can have a permanent -5' speed penalty, go variant human (Mobile) so you can have a fully normal 30' speed plus extra advantages when attacking (e.g. Booming Blade) or Dashing over difficult terrain.

    And you still have the option Lyracian mentioned of occasionally putting on Ring Mail instead to have 40' movement instead of 30', when movement speed is more important to you than AC.
    Yep. Some folks also take 35 speed races with armor, like Satyr or Mark of Passage human, which has essentially the same effect as being an armored dwarf.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2020-09-12 at 12:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyracian View Post
    I used to play a lot of older edition rules where you were just slowed because you were wearing armour so that does not bother me. You can always downgrade to Ring Mail and still get better AC that the Sorcerer and no movement penalty allowing you ignore Strength and Dex if you want.

    Vuman Forge Cleric Wizard starting with Res(Con)
    Con 16; Int 16; Wis 14; then 10/10/8 for the other three in what ever way I want. You could even go 12/8/8 if I want a positive Dex adjustment.

    Blessing of the Forge, Ring Mail & Shield = AC 17. We still have Chain mail for AC 19 should we want it during some parts of the adventure.
    That's a solid setup. One that I'm pretty impressed with. Let's compare that build at level 7 to a Dragon Sorcerer build at level 7.

    Notables:
    Your setup
    53hp
    17AC
    -1 str saves
    +1 dex saves
    +6 con saves
    +5 wis saves
    +4 int saves
    +2 cha saves
    +1 initiative
    Cantrips: Guidance, Light, Thaumaturgy, Mage Hand, Toll the dead, Minor Illusion
    Notable Spells prepared: Identify, Bless, Healing Word, Detect Magic, Shield, Absorb Elements, Magic Missile, Invisibility, Misty Step, Levitate, Web, Counterspell, Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball

    Dragon Sorcerer setup
    44hp
    15 AC
    -1 str saves
    +2 dex saves
    +5 con saves
    +3 wis saves
    +4 int saves
    +4 cha saves
    +2 initiative
    Cantrips: Light, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Firebolt, Toll the Dead, Shocking Grasp
    Notable Spells prepared: Shield, Absorb Elements, Magic Missile, Silent Image, Invisibility, Misty Step, Levitate, Web, Counterspell, Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Tongues

    *Took resilient wisdom for sake of comparison (Of course I think it's a bit wrong for variant human with res con to be considered part of your build in the first place when a good part of the exercise was about the impact of having con saves over wisdom saves).

    I'd say your build is more defensive. +9 hp, better saves IMO, +2 ac. But is that actually better than having the extra spells prepared? I'm not sure. Having an extra 3rd level spell prepped is huge (I did tongues, but really any would be good). I guess it boils down to - would you rather be a little better in combat or better out of combat?


    We clearly play very different games. I find it strange that you value Mage Armour so little but maintain the Draconic Sorcerer is such a good choice for a Wizard multi-class. For me having a single, always on, first level spell does not make it stand out as better than the other Sorcerer origins or Cleric.
    I don't think that's true. Perhaps we just value things slightly differently. My issue with mage armor is that it typically costs a resource you could have used to do something far more important.
    Last edited by Frogreaver; 2020-09-12 at 03:48 PM.

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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    Not a contradiction, but a clarrification: death domain cleric can take toll the dead as the wizard cantrip if they want. It remains a wizard cantrip and therefore still uses intelligence rather than wisdom. Not a big deal, but if you want it it frees up a wizard cantrip for something else.

    Personally I like the death domain cleric/divine soul sorcerer for this rather than the wizard, but it is a nice little bonus to the multiclass.

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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    Not a contradiction, but a clarrification: death domain cleric can take toll the dead as the wizard cantrip if they want. It remains a wizard cantrip and therefore still uses intelligence rather than wisdom. Not a big deal, but if you want it it frees up a wizard cantrip for something else.

    Personally I like the death domain cleric/divine soul sorcerer for this rather than the wizard, but it is a nice little bonus to the multiclass.
    Death domain is for NPCs only though.

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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Death domain is for NPCs only though.
    Death domain is for whoever the DM allows to play it

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    Default Re: On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    Not a contradiction, but a clarrification: death domain cleric can take toll the dead as the wizard cantrip if they want. It remains a wizard cantrip and therefore still uses intelligence rather than wisdom.
    I'm fairly certain the cantrip uses wisdom, although it could be read both ways really.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Death domain is for NPCs only though.
    A player can choose the Death Domain with the DM's approval.
    Last edited by Merudo; 2020-09-12 at 08:31 PM.

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