On Multiclassing for Wizards (Mini-Guide)

[LudicSavant]

Empowered Evocation doesn't actually say it applies to 1 damage roll.

Yes it does. It says exactly that.

Beginning at 10th level, you can add your Intelligence modifier to one damage roll of any wizard evocation spell you cast.

[Frogreaver]

Yes it does. It says exactly that.

Not what my PHB says. Appears there was an errata on that one ;)

[Skylivedk]

You might want to check the official erratta as PHB has on page 117

I have never met a DM in real life who applies it as one damage roll for all missiles and lets Empowered Evocation give you *3 damage with Magic Missile.

I agree with you that it would be a single 3d4+3 damage however to quote the OP can we move discussion of Nuclear Wizard and how Magic Missile works to another thread? Adding Proficiency to damage, even if only once per spell, is still a big bump that a Sorcerer or Cleric dip do not offer.



While neither of us may agree with the Tweet LudicSavant, or anyone else writing guides, can only work from the stand point of what has been officially said. While this might not yet be in Sage Advice (and we can hope it never is) it is the closest answer to how rules work that is currently available.

What do you mean, you can hope it never is? It already has been. LudicSavant provided the link earlier (to RPG Stack Exchange
https://forums.giantitp.com/newreply...ply&p=24709034 where you'd find this: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...20938402947072)

So can we agree that discussion is done, dead, dusted and now a plant of something fruitful can grow in its earthly remains?

Empowered Evocation works because it is one damage roll and Hexblade's Curse would work on 1 or many damage rolls and deal proficiency bonus attack.

That leaves the Warlock with fewer cantrips, better slot economy early on, vastly better survivability, tremendously better offense if specced for it, a whole range of other items to use and a unique spell to boot.

And in return the Sorc has 2 extra cantrips and one extra spell prepared (besides not having AoA of course).

[Kemev]

It might be worth noting which clerics get heavy vs medium armor. I realize it's niche, especially given that this forum really loves Dex builds, but there are some cleric/wizard builds that would benefit from ringmail or chainmail. (If nothing else, it'd be handy to know what the options are up front.)

[LudicSavant]

It might be worth noting which clerics get heavy vs medium armor. I realize it's niche, especially given that this forum really loves Dex builds, but there are some cleric/wizard builds that would benefit from ringmail or chainmail. (If nothing else, it'd be handy to know what the options are up front.)

Heavy:
Forge
Life
Order
Tempest
Nature
War

Medium:
Knowledge
Death
Arcana
Trickery
Light
Grave

[Lyracian]

So can we agree that discussion is done, dead, dusted and now a plant of something fruitful can grow in its earthly remains?

I had already said the same but you are the one bringing it back up and asking questions about my post. I will not discuss the Nucular Wizard further but I will discuss what is and is not official rulings.

What do you mean, you can hope it never is? It already has been. LudicSavant provided the link earlier (to RPG Stack Exchange
https://forums.giantitp.com/newreply...ply&p=24709034 where you'd find this: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...20938402947072)

That is not correct. If you look at what was posted this is a link to a Twitter not an actual ruling. I will re-quote what Frogreaver posted with the link to Sage Advice which clearly says "Jeremy Crawford’s tweets are often a preview of rulings that will appear here". They are not themselves rulings. As such I can hope that while this was his initial thoughts on the answer he, or other members of the team, may decide this is not the official answer and as such it will not appear in Sage Advice.

To me the only difference between Magic Missile and Scorching Ray is that Missiles automatically hit. Ray does not deal 2d6 * 3 if they all hit I would be rolling 6d6. Until such point as Sage Advice tell me otherwise I treat Magic Missile the same.

What he linked to was not an official ruling. The only official rulings are to be found in the sage advice document that they post.
https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/d...Compendium.pdf
Official rulings on how to interpret rules are made here in
the Sage Advice Compendium by the game’s lead rules designer, Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford on Twitter).
The public statements of the D&D team, or anyone else
at Wizards of the Coast, are not official rulings; they are
advice. Jeremy Crawford’s tweets are often a preview of rulings that will appear here.

[MaxWilson]

To me the only difference between Magic Missile and Scorching Ray is that Missiles automatically hit. Ray does not deal 2d6 * 3 if they all hit I would be rolling 6d6. Until such point as Sage Advice tell me otherwise I treat Magic Missile the same.

FWIW, page 12 of the Sage Advice Compendium says to treat each Scorching Ray as a separate attack with its own damage roll (and therefore its own Hexblade's Curse bonus).

Q: When casting a spell that affects multiple targets, such
as scorching ray or eldritch blast, do I fire one ray or
beam, determine the result, and fire again? Or do I have
to choose all the targets before making any attack rolls?

A: Even though the duration of each of these spells is instanta-
neous, you choose the targets and resolve the attacks con-
secutively, not all at once. If you want, you can declare all
your targets before making any attacks, but you would still
roll separately for each attack (and damage, if appropriate).

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Does anyone have a recommendation on what to do with a:
Tempest cleric 2/ Order of Scribe wizard 5+

It is a really nice multiclass wizard a player in my ToA game got and I wonder how you guys will improve it.
Right now his big thing is Electric Fireball Maximised.

[Lyracian]

FWIW, page 12 of the Sage Advice Compendium says to treat each Scorching Ray as a separate attack with its own damage roll (and therefore its own Hexblade's Curse bonus).

I have made no comments about how Hex Blades Curse works with other spells; it is not a book I own and therefore I do not have exact wording for the rules. I think you may be confusing me with Satori01? I am merely pointing out that a Tweet is not considered an official ruling as per what is written in the Sage Advice document.

The 'Nuclear Wizard' from what I have read, stems from a fallacious reading of page 196 in the PHB. Upcasting Magic Missile and sending all the magic darts does not mean one can add their INT modifier and Hexblade Curse damage to each Missile. Some Hexblade players have attempted to argue that by RAW, the damage from Hexblade curse should apply to each individual roll of a d6, when a Hexblade attacks with a greatsword or maul.

[diplomancer]

I know it's not RAW or even RAI, but I'd houserule empowered evocation as applying once to each target for those sort of effects. You want to do more damage, you've got to spread it around. It also brings it inline with other AoE spells which the designers probably had in mind for empowered evocation.

[MaxWilson]

I have made no comments about how Hex Blades Curse works with other spells; it is not a book I own and therefore I do not have exact wording for the rules. I think you may be confusing me with Satori01? I am merely pointing out that a Tweet is not considered an official ruling as per what is written in the Sage Advice document.

Oh, I agree with you there. There are even outright rules errors in the Sage Advice Compendium itself (e.g. on nets, and Goodberry), but tweets are even less reliable.

That's why I say "FWIW" when referring to them. :) It doesn't hurt to know what Crawford once argued, but you don't have to pay attention if his argument is lacking. Sage Advice has a long history of questionable rulings, stretching way back into TSR days with Skip Williams.

[Satori01]

So can we agree that discussion is done, dead, dusted and now a plant of something fruitful can grow in its earthly remains?

Absolutely, if we can also agree to use the most conservative interpretation of the Empowered Evocation and only allow the INT modifier to apply to a single Magic Missile projectile, and not to all.

As MaxWilson has already admirably stated, adding just the damage from Hexblade's Curse to MM, is a notable increase to damage.

1 level dips into Arcana cleric and Hexblade is an entirely viable option.
Arcana Cleric can allow you to take Cantrips, like Move Earth or Control Flames that you couldn't fit before.

A freely prepared Detect Magic is useful for those occasions when you do not have time to waste before getting your "magic test results back from the lab", and you need to expend a spell slot to know know if something has been affected by magic.
NOW!

Magic Missile + Hexblade's Curse for obvious reasons.

This would be a topic for a separate thread, but how much of the Nuclear Wizard can you model thru Arcana Cleric and Hexblade?

Unless your table allows a PC to Misty Step out of their armor, Heavy Armor on a Wizard puts them at a severe burn risk from a Heat Metal spell.

To doff medium armor with help, takes 5 rounds.
In contrast, to doff heavy armor, even with help, takes 25 rounds.

Medium armor and a Shield is all you need. Taking heavy armor means using Counterspells and spell slots on any casting of Heat Metal on your person.

[Satori01]

It doesn't hurt to know what Crawford once argued, but you don't have to pay attention if his argument is lacking. Sage Advice has a long history of questionable rulings, stretching way back into TSR days with Skip Williams.

Quoted, for truth.

I've met Skip at Cons before, he is super nice, but the Sage Advice column just fell into his lap. Everyone at TSR dropped being the rules guru like a hot potatoe...Skip just got stuck with it. :)

[Kemev]

Does anyone have a recommendation on what to do with a:
Tempest cleric 2/ Order of Scribe wizard 5+

It is a really nice multiclass wizard a player in my ToA game got and I wonder how you guys will improve it.
Right now his big thing is Electric Fireball Maximised.

If you're at level 7 with this build, you've started living your best life. Lightning Bolt + Destructive Wrath is pretty sweet. If you want some fine tuning, you probably need some to provide some extra info (race, stats, playstyle, etc.)

What's electrifying Fireball?

[x3n0n]

If you're at level 7 with this build, you've started living your best life. Lightning Bolt + Destructive Wrath is pretty sweet. If you want some fine tuning, you probably need some to provide some extra info (race, stats, playstyle, etc.)

What's electrifying Fireball?

I assume it's this Order of Scribes feature: "When you cast a wizard spell with a spell slot, you can temporarily replace its damage type with the damage type of another spell in your spellbook, as your spellbook magically alters the spell’s formula for this casting."

That allows for the Lightning Bolt combo, but with Fireball.

[MaxWilson]

(B) Absolutely, if we can also agree to use the most conservative interpretation of the Empowered Evocation and only allow the INT modifier to apply to a single Magic Missile projectile, and not to all.

As MaxWilson has already admirably stated, adding just the damage from Hexblade's Curse to MM, is a notable increase to damage.

1 level dips into Arcana cleric and Hexblade is an entirely viable option.
Arcana Cleric can allow you to take Cantrips, like Move Earth or Control Flames that you couldn't fit before.

A freely prepared Detect Magic is useful for those occasions when you do not have time to waste before getting your "magic test results back from the lab", and you need to expend a spell slot to know know if something has been affected by magic.
NOW!

Magic Missile + Hexblade's Curse for obvious reasons.

This would be a topic for a separate thread, but how much of the Nuclear Wizard can you model thru Arcana Cleric and Hexblade?

(A) Unless your table allows a PC to Misty Step out of their armor, Heavy Armor on a Wizard puts them at a severe burn risk from a Heat Metal spell.

To doff medium armor with help, takes 5 rounds.
In contrast, to doff heavy armor, even with help, takes 25 rounds.

Medium armor and a Shield is all you need. Taking heavy armor means using Counterspells and spell slots on any casting of Heat Metal on your person.

(A) I doubt any rational wizard's response to Heat Metal would be to try to doff their armor in the middle of combat, no matter whether the armor is medium or heavy. They're probably going to try to Dispel it, or break the caster's concentration (perhaps by killing the caster). Worst comes to worst (maybe an assassination scenario outside of combat where they didn't see the caster), they'll get an ally to put up a heals-over-time spell like Aura of Vitality to counteract the damage-over-time from Heat Metal.

If your response to Heat Metal on your medium armor is to chortle, "Haha, you thought I would Counterspell but I fooled you!" and enlist another PC to help you climb out of your armor... I pity your fellow PCs. The enemy just rendered two PCs useless for the duration of the fight with a single 2nd level spell.

So there isn't really a meaningful difference between Medium/Heavy armor w/rt Heat Metal.

(B) Probably the most we can do is agree that it's going to vary on a table-by-table basis. Hexvokers will be excellent at nova damage at tables where Crawford's word carries weight, and also at tables that ignore Crawford but think it's dumb to tie the power of special abilities to the particular way you roll Magic Missile damage (N x d4+1 vs. Nd4+N) and so grant Empowered Evocation bonus damage to all Magic Missiles, all Scorching Rays, all targets of a Fireball (even if you roll damage separately for each one, ignoring the PHB advice to roll once per Fireball), etc.

At tables where this doesn't happen, you're more likely to see Hexblade/Necromancers, Hexblade/Illusionists, etc. Either way Hexblade is definitely bringing a strong nova capability to the build.

[Kemev]

Unless your table allows a PC to Misty Step out of their armor, Heavy Armor on a Wizard puts them at a severe burn risk from a Heat Metal spell.

To doff medium armor with help, takes 5 rounds.
In contrast, to doff heavy armor, even with help, takes 25 rounds.

Medium armor and a Shield is all you need. Taking heavy armor means using Counterspells and spell slots on any casting of Heat Metal on your person.

Is this something that comes up routinely? It's not like there are a ton of monsters with druid spells (and even the stock NPC druids don't have heat metal on their spell lists). And if a wizard is getting Heat'd, waiting 5 rounds to take off their Medium armor probably isn't a solution to the problem... the fix is killing the thing that cast Heat Metal.

If it's something a player was really worried about, there's the Cast-Off armor enchantment from Xanathar's Guide. Otherwise, I feel like telling people "Yeah you should take a -1 or 2 to AC (a stat that is relevant every combat) to avoid this niche scenario" probably isn't great advice.

Edit: got ninja'd by Max. Didn't intend this to be piling on.

[Skylivedk]

Absolutely, if we can also agree to use the most conservative interpretation of the Empowered Evocation and only allow the INT modifier to apply to a single Magic Missile projectile, and not to all.

As MaxWilson has already admirably stated, adding just the damage from Hexblade's Curse to MM, is a notable increase to damage.

1 level dips into Arcana cleric and Hexblade is an entirely viable option.
Arcana Cleric can allow you to take Cantrips, like Move Earth or Control Flames that you couldn't fit before.

A freely prepared Detect Magic is useful for those occasions when you do not have time to waste before getting your "magic test results back from the lab", and you need to expend a spell slot to know know if something has been affected by magic.
NOW!

Magic Missile + Hexblade's Curse for obvious reasons.

This would be a topic for a separate thread, but how much of the Nuclear Wizard can you model thru Arcana Cleric and Hexblade?

Unless your table allows a PC to Misty Step out of their armor, Heavy Armor on a Wizard puts them at a severe burn risk from a Heat Metal spell.

To doff medium armor with help, takes 5 rounds.
In contrast, to doff heavy armor, even with help, takes 25 rounds.

Medium armor and a Shield is all you need. Taking heavy armor means using Counterspells and spell slots on any casting of Heat Metal on your person.

Why would I agree to that when the designer says otherwise? Doffing armour in combat... That's a lenient DM.

FWIW, I house rule a ton, so Nuclear Wizard doesn't work that way in my games, but that's because I/we have gotten rid of most the Hexblade and folded it into invocations and Pact of the Blade. I haven't had an evoker so I haven't checked if I would see a need to nerf it. I doubt it though.

Oh, I agree with you there. There are even outright rules errors in the Sage Advice Compendium itself (e.g. on nets, and Goodberry), but tweets are even less reliable.

That's why I say "FWIW" when referring to them. :) It doesn't hurt to know what Crawford once argued, but you don't have to pay attention if his argument is lacking. Sage Advice has a long history of questionable rulings, stretching way back into TSR days with Skip Williams.

Agreed on this point, but I do understand and sympathise with guides using the clarifications from designers. I wouldn't for a while bunch of reasons (Shield Master being just a tiny fraction of them), but that's a whole nother discussion.

And pardon my mix-up between Sage Advice and the tweet series. I (mis?)remembered the tweets back then as having official rulings weight

[MaxWilson]

And pardon my mix-up between Sage Advice and the tweet series. I (mis?)remembered the tweets back then as having official rulings weight

They did at one point, although it was never clear exactly what "official" meant except that it clearly meant no one else at WotC had to deal with them. (I.e. that part of PR was Crawford's job.) Eventually though WotC and Crawford realized that encouraging people to rely on tweets that Crawford sent while e.g. standing in line at the grocery store, without even having his rulebooks around, was a bad (chaotic, unreliable, unstable) communication format, and they started retroactively discouraging people from relying overmuch on the tweets.

[Klorox]

When I look over it all, I can kinda see the argument for making a sorcerer dip green instead of orange, but this seems like a pointless argument, as cleric and hexblade are both better.

The only time I think I'd choose sorcerer over one of those two is if I were making a bladesinger, and choosing draconic sorcerer were better than using a spell slot on the mage armor spell.

Even then, I think I'd prefer starting fighter 1 for better HP, better stat synergy, and the same AC as mage armor with studded leather and the defense fighting style.

SMH.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

When I look over it all, I can kinda see the argument for making a sorcerer dip green instead of orange, but this seems like a pointless argument, as cleric and hexblade are both better.

The only time I think I'd choose sorcerer over one of those two is if I were making a bladesinger, and choosing draconic sorcerer were better than using a spell slot on the mage armor spell.

Even then, I think I'd prefer starting fighter 1 for better HP, better stat synergy, and the same AC as mage armor with studded leather and the defense fighting style.

SMH.

If we are taking UA the order of the scribe we can make something out of draconic sorcerer extra damage with nuclear wizard.
Tempest Cleric Channel Divinity + Draconic Sorcerer extra damage + Hexblade curse with electric MM can be nice.

[Satori01]

(A) I doubt any rational wizard's response to Heat Metal would be to try to doff their armor in the middle of combat, no matter whether the armor is medium or heavy. They're probably going to try to Dispel it, or break the caster's concentration (perhaps by killing the caster).
So there isn't really a meaningful difference between Medium/Heavy armor w/rt Heat Metal.
[

Worst case scenario is for whatever reason a Dispel Magic is not available and you are stuck shedding your armor before it cooks you.

Heavy Armor nets 1 more point of AC, compared to Medium Armor.
Maybe this is paranoid, but one more point of AC does not outweigh the risk, and commiserate Resource Expenditure cost to deal with Heat Metal.

Max, you have stated you hoard your spell slot resources...you would most likely have the means to deal with Heat Metal. Other players, especially newer players are more profligate when casting spells.

Is this something that comes up routinely? It's not like there are a ton of monsters with druid spells (Didn't intend this to be piling on.

Pile on! I don't mind being the thread goat. :)
What you describe is very campaign specific. I always customize the spell load outs of monsters, the defaults largely suck. MToF gives suggestions re: thematic spell list add ones to the spell lists of Adherents for Demon Lords or Arch Devils.

Games set in Eberron or Ravinica have widescale changes to what spells are accessible.

I don't like to over share campaign details..but in an Eberron game I ran, the chief shadowy villain was a splinter group of House Vadalis...Druids and Enchanters.

(Druid Thieves Guilds are awesome...no one suspects the humble sparrow!)

Honestly, when I brought up Druid style anti-Polymorph tactics in the "Is Polymorph Overated" thread...the options I offered generated some consternation as well.

Some DMs, use Druidical foes and spells, on the regular.

[Lyracian]

Heavy Armor nets 1 more point of AC, compared to Medium Armor.
Maybe this is paranoid, but one more point of AC does not outweigh the risk, and commiserate Resource Expenditure cost to deal with Heat Metal.

Like drowning it is a very edge case. I have had a paladin trade down to Leather for a couple of missions during Saltmarsh as they were on the water. If you are expecting a particular spell you might want to change armour. If the game world has none metal armour for druids you could just wear that instead. I do not see trading down to metal medium armour a compelling strategy.

I would still rather spend 5 rounds attacking the caster, along with my ally, rather than having both of us working on taking off armour and potentially both taking fire damage.

[LudicSavant]

Here's an example of a Forge-dip Wizard, demonstrating their capacity for handily out-tanking Barbarians. While, of course, still being great at typical Wizard things.

The Forged Dwarven Steel Wizard

Warding Dwarf Forge Cleric 1 / Wizard 19
Starting Point Buy: 17 Con / 16 Int / 14 Wis / 10 Dex
ASIs: Res(Con), Max Int, Warcaster, Lucky
Cantrips x8
Spells prepared x29 (plus the spells prepared of their Simulacrum)

Consider a stereotypical Half-Orc Barbarian. He has 17 or 19 AC, 14 or 16 Con (they're somewhat MAD and don't have a clear 'I want this' +1 Con half-feat like Wizards do), is reckless attacking like half the time (which significantly increases the number of hits and crits you take), is raging in maybe 2/3 combats over the course of a typical adventuring day (depends on level, etc), and their defense is not well rounded (e.g. poor mental saves, no counterspells, little control, etc). They probably spent their ASIs on something like Max Strength, a combat feat like GWM or Sentinel so that enemies actually care they exist instead of just completely ignoring them, and Res(Wis) and that's pretty much all they can afford over their whole progression.

Now let's take a Mark of Warding Forge Abjurer. She started with 17 Con / 16 Int / 14 Wis / 10 Dex, and bumps that Con to 18 when she gets Resilient. And she has 21 base AC, and tons of ways to bump it, like Shield, Shield of Faith (which is only a bonus action to cast and has a generous duration), and tons of things that impose Disadvantage or otherwise control the enemy. She has roughly the same HP as the Barbarian before we count her Ward recharging or Armor of Agathys or any of that stuff... and once we count that she has considerably more.

I'm not kidding about that HP either. Just counting the base Ward + base HP, this Abjurer has 207 hp at level 20 to the Barbarian's 245 (and 40 of that is from their capstone). So it comes down to who has the better mitigation tools on top of that.

In one corner, we have Rage. It halves damage of certain types! It's even slightly better than that, because damage rounds down when halved.

However, in the other corner, we have... an entire giant list of things.

You have a far, far higher AC than the Barbarian (with Shield, typically AC 26, 28, or 26+Disadvantage to be hit). This on its own mitigates more damage than Rage in many scenarios (against mook swarms in particular, vastly more), and that's even if the Barbarian is never using Reckless and always holds a shield. But this is just the very tip of an enormous iceberg.

Speaking of ice, we've got pretty much the best Armor of Agathys combo in the game. For example, we could cast a level 5 Armor of Agathys for 25 temporary hit points, and 10 arcane ward points. And then the enemy would have to break the ward points before they can even damage the temporary hit points. Your ward can have up to 45 hp (plus regeneration), and your Simulacrum can have another ward of up to 45 hp (plus regeneration) that they can extend to you, so breaking a single Armor of Agathys spell on either of you can take well over 100 damage just from that.

And when they break that Armor of Agathys? They activate your Contingency: Level 5 Armor of Agathys and get another 25 temp hp and 10 ward hp to deal with. In other words, melee foes simply die before they can even scratch your real hit points. Which is especially nice for your Simulacrum, who doesn't have that many real hit points and is far tankier than a typical Wizard's glass cannon simulacrum.

Oh, and this can of course stack with further sources of retribution damage, like Fire Shield (which has a generous duration and doesn't take Concentration). Though it's basically just overkill at that point. Trying to beat you in a melee slugfest is suicide.

But that's not all. Oh no.

You have Resistance to poison, acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder damage.

And Resistance to all damage from spells. And Advantage on saves against spells and poison. Essentially Bear Totem has nothing on you.

And your race gives you +1d4 to Investigation and Thieves Tools (on top of Wizards already having good Investigation and Arcana, and your familiar having 18 passive perception with Keen Senses), plus all the spells and rituals that are useful for dealing with traps and such. So you're an excellent trap-monkey who can just shrug off the effects of the few traps they might actually fail to find.

And you generate a ton more hit points than that base 207 via your ward regeneration and your temp HP spells. In fact, you're likely to more than double your effective hit points via these things.. For example, if we just count your racial spells, your level 1 slots spent on stuff like Shield or PFG&E, your Contingency and level 5 slots + Arcane Recovery spent on Armor of Agathys, your level 3 slots spent on Counterspell, and your two base wards, that's already 289 hp value (plus the value of the other effects of those spells). And I'm not even using nearly all of the resources here (you still have all your level 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, and 9 slots. And all your simulacrum's slots. And your rituals and...).

And all of that is before we even mention Spell Mastery, which just lets you regenerate your ward forever and have infinite Shield/Blur (or whatever other combo you want). Before that, you can convert time into ward hp with Alarm rituals.

Even the odd lucky enemy crit can just get rerolled by Lucky.

And you have counters for just about every kind of offensive strategy. Counterspells, dispels, walls, slows, etc. And not just any Counterspells, but buffed Abjurer counterspells. Heck, you might even get disabled, only for your Simulacrum to be able to dispel it with *their* actions.

And then on top of that there's all the other usual Wizard control shenanigans.

You are, more or less, impregnable. A Barbarian can only dream of being this tough to kill, and you're harder to ignore or run away from than they are.

You can even go for overkill and optimize it further by adding the silly free power creep that is GGtR backgrounds, grabbing you extra useful Abjuration spells (potential options include Aid, Pass Without Trace, Death Ward, Warding Bond, Freedom of Movement) or things like Spirit Guardians.

It's strong at low levels too, and scales pretty evenly throughout the game. I mean, the whole Armor of Agathys + Arcane Ward + high AC thing is all online by level 3. And the racial spells provide a rather significant extra amount of ward recovery straight from low levels (8 hp worth, which is basically twice as much value as the Hill Dwarf's extra hp at low levels... before we even count the effects of those racial spells).

Variants:
- You can take Warcaster early (at 4) if you want to exert more OA pressure and be a stickier frontliner. And leave Res(Con) for later.
- If you roll for stats or something, you might have space for an extra feat. My go-to choice would probably be Alert.
- As mentioned, you can take GGtR backgrounds if you want extra cheese on your dwarf pizza. Orzhov can get you Guidance and Spirit Guardians, which is a great control ability for a tanky mage.

[Lyracian]

Here's an example of a Forge-dip Wizard, demonstrating their capacity for handily out-tanking Barbarians. While, of course, still being great at typical Wizard things.
The Forged Dwarven Steel Wizard

The Warding Dwarf and Spells of the Mark racial feature are amazing. If I ever played an Eborron game this is what I would pick. As I understand if you can even prepare Armour of Agathys as one of your Cleric spells so you do not have to worry about it interrupting your selection of Wizard spells.

[LudicSavant]

The Warding Dwarf and Spells of the Mark racial feature are amazing. If I ever played an Eborron game this is what I would pick. As I understand if you can even prepare Armour of Agathys as one of your Cleric spells so you do not have to worry about it interrupting your selection of Wizard spells.

Yep. You basically get to carry around PFG&E, Armor of Agathys, and Shield of Faith all the time with your Cleric prep slots. And they never cease to be top shelf spells for an armored abjurer.

[Frogreaver]

Here's an example of a Forge-dip Wizard, demonstrating their capacity for handily out-tanking Barbarians. While, of course, still being great at typical Wizard things.

First off, nice build.

A few thoughts:

If I was going to build a barbarian whose primary purpose was to absorb damage I would go Variant Human (Toughness) with 16/14/16/8/10/8. He would use a sword and a shield and rarely ever reckless attack

Even against that build a cleric/wizard of nearly any level that dedicates all slots to shield/armor of agathys can out tank the barbarian. The more important question is what is the resource cost of doing so? What is the offensive tradeoff of doing so? Providing that sufficient attacks come your way, there are some common scenarios at level 5 where it will take 6 slots on shield to out tank said barbarian. Its not clear cut that having a few level 3+ level slots and then cantrips the rest of the day is actually better in combats at these levels than making 2 melee strength attacks.

More important thoughts:

Tanking isn't all that important in the grand scheme of 5e combat.

Armor of Agathys actually pairs poorly with extremely high AC and the shield spell - it only has a 1 hour duration. If you don't get hit in that timeframe then it's basically a wasted slot. I'd actually make the case that armor of agathys is actually overvalued for this build.

Most important thought:

Killing enemies faster also tends to reduce the damage you and your team ultimately takes. It's harder to quantify though as it's not just your damage that needs factored into this but also your party members damages and damage buffs.

[LudicSavant]

If I was going to build a barbarian whose primary purpose was to absorb damage I would go Variant Human (Toughness) with 16/14/16/8/10/8. He would use a sword and a shield and rarely ever reckless attack

I would generally recommend not doing this. As a Barbarian you really want to improve your ability to tank, rather than your ability to merely turtle. Getting a couple extra hit points from Toughness is not going to be doing you a lot of favors compared to giving your enemies a reason to actually care that you're on the map.

Even if all you cared about was personal durability, I would recommend turning your attention to making your defenses more well-rounded. For example, enemies can just bypass your hit points by targeting your mental saves.

Even against that build a cleric/wizard of nearly any level that dedicates all slots to shield/armor of agathys can out tank the barbarian. The more important question is what is the resource cost of doing so?

Under pretty much no circumstances should you be 'dedicating all slots to shield/armor of agathys.' Nor do you need to. Note how in my example only a fraction of available resources were used.

Like if you actually dedicated all your resources to that, your hit points pool you could draw on would be over 1000. On top of a better AC. You do not need that much.

it only has a 1 hour duration.

1 hour duration is basically the entire period between at least short rests in dungeoneering scenarios.

And if you're in a scenario where it wouldn't be good to use, you use a different spell.

Armor of Agathys actually pairs poorly with extremely high AC and the shield spell

I can assure you, it pairs just fine.

21 AC is high, but not so high that big foes can't hit you. And while you kinda want them to hit while AoA is active, you don't actually want them to be able to burst you (at least if you're like me and want to be able to take 6+ Deadly encounters a day with a Tucker's Kobolds / old school meat grinder DM). And the ability to selectively pump up your AC means you can block the kinds of attacks you might want to save your armor/ward from, like ranged ones. Also, if your ward can't be burst through quickly, you can potentially regenerate the ward and get more retribution hits out of that single spell slot, making you more resource-efficient.

Even more importantly, you want to have a variety of kinds of defense. You're not taking Shield and Armor of Agathys primarily because you want to stack them together, but because they are most effective against entirely different kinds of enemy offense. For example, if you're up against 100 archers, Shield can straight up shrug off an attack that would lay a Barbarian (or your Armor of Agathys) low. If you're up against a Deadly multiattacker with +17 to hit, Armor of Agathys will render their attacks suicidal.

You do not just stack all your abilities together and spam them. Adjust your mentality. You are Batman. You pick the correct (most efficient) tool in your toolbelt for the situation. If you are not in that situation, you use a different tool. If you're doing it properly, you should be highly efficient and be going strong throughout a long adventuring day.

Additionally, as mentioned, it makes a great Contingency, which you can have trigger after a hit is already confirmed.

Killing enemies faster also tends to reduce the damage you and your team ultimately takes. It's harder to quantify though as it's not just your damage that needs factored into this but also your party members damages and damage buffs.

Yes, which is why I generally don't recommend your "Tough" feat choice.

[Frogreaver]

I would generally recommend not doing this. As a Barbarian you really want to improve your ability to tank, rather than your ability to merely turtle. Getting a couple extra hit points from Toughness is not going to be doing you a lot of favors compared to giving your enemies a reason to actually care that you're on the map.

Even if all you cared about was personal durability, I would recommend turning your attention to making your defenses more well-rounded. For example, enemies can just bypass your hit points by targeting your mental saves.



Under pretty much no circumstances should you be 'dedicating all slots to shield/armor of agathys.' Nor do you need to. Note how in my example only a fraction of available resources were used.

Like if you actually dedicated all your resources to that, your hit points pool you could draw on would be over 1000. On top of a better AC. You do not need that much.

1 hour duration is basically the entire period between at least short rests in dungeoneering scenarios.

And if you're in a scenario where it wouldn't be good to use, you use a different spell.


I can assure you, it pairs just fine.

21 AC is high, but not so high that big foes can't hit you. And while you kinda want them to hit while AoA is active, you don't actually want them to be able to burst you (at least if you're like me and want to be able to take 6+ Deadly encounters a day with a Tucker's Kobolds / old school meat grinder DM). And the ability to selectively pump up your AC means you can block the kinds of attacks you might want to save your armor/ward from, like ranged ones. Also, if your ward can't be burst through quickly, you can potentially regenerate the ward and get more retribution hits out of that single spell slot, making you more resource-efficient.

Even more importantly, you want to have a variety of kinds of defense. You're not taking Shield and Armor of Agathys primarily because you want to stack them together, but because they are most effective against entirely different kinds of enemy offense. For example, if you're up against 100 archers, Shield can straight up shrug off an attack that would lay a Barbarian (or your Armor of Agathys) low. If you're up against a Deadly multiattacker with +17 to hit, Armor of Agathys will render their attacks suicidal.

You do not just stack all your abilities together and spam them. Adjust your mentality. You are Batman. You pick the correct (most efficient) tool in your toolbelt for the situation. If you are not in that situation, you use a different tool. If you're doing it properly, you should be highly efficient and be going strong throughout a long adventuring day.

Additionally, as mentioned, it makes a great Contingency, which you can have trigger after a hit is already confirmed.



Yes, which is why I generally don't recommend your "Tough" feat choice.

Please don’t act like I am making a recommendation I’m not making.

My suggestion was about comparing an actual barbarian tank to your tank wizard in terms of tankiness. You went out of your way to give the wizard build extra tanking abilities but used a mostly basic barbarian build to compare its tanking to.

[LudicSavant]

Please don’t act like I am making a recommendation I’m not making.

Don't think I did. You were suggesting that Toughness would make the Barbarian a better example of a tank Barbarian. I disagree.

Either way, the Barbarian you suggested does not catch up, so I'm not seeing what it's adding to the conversation.