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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: What is the deal with all the astronaut stuff we are getting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    I reject the principle of a crucible is necessary to do innovation.

    It is merely industrial policy and a nation state or a way too rich billionaire deciding to do industrial policy. Then artificial crucibles can be more effective than actual crucibles, especially if space is way too hostile that you are not actually doing actual learning for it takes too long to set up even the first iteration of the experiment, especially a successful iteration of the experiment that will not kill the humans at the space station, moon base, mars base, etc.

    I repeat what I said earlier. Pay people to set up "self-contained biospheres" on earth with cargo containers. Learn from those experiments, do hundreds of those experiments for a fraction of the cost than it takes to do one successful experiment in space, or on an asteroid, moon, mars, etc for there is a 100x cost due to how expensive rocket fuel is. It costs $10k per lb of stuff to put into space, and the Falcon Heavy brings it down to what? $1k per lb, other people think it is closer to $500 per lb ... I think the estimate is? (with the Falcon 1 and Falcon 9 being in between the costs of those two.)

    I am not against rocket technology (for rockets put cool satellites, probes, etc into space and they pay for themselves.) But lets get the biology stuff done pat prior to putting all that expensive stuff into space to support our meat sacks for I love my meat sack, I think most 7 billion people love their meat sacks, but it is so hard to use very little resources in space to keep our meat sacks in a health space, let alone other problems like keeping the atmosphere and so on the right balance to grow plants, keep our human selves, etc balanced. Biosphere 2 in the 90s was a [censored] disaster. The problem though with Biosphere 2 is we never iterated and did it on a more massive scale learning from individual successes, repeating it again and again till we figured it out.

    Figure out how to do the stuff on Earth first prior to sending it into Space!
    Agreed. If self-sustaining habs are possible, they should be possible here. We are way better off focusing on the Outback, Tundra and the Sahara than on trying to make tiny space colonies. In the long run, once it is possible, we can move off world.
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: What is the deal with all the astronaut stuff we are getting?

    Those sound like good ideas. More good ideas include figuring out why we'd want to send humans to any particular spot in space. We've concluded that the Moon isn't a good place for mining because, due to the lack of tectonic activity, volcanoes, etc., substances aren't concentrated but are scattered more-or-less evenly throughout the Moon. So there aren't any veins of ore or similar resources worth mining. It would be cheaper and easier to find ways of extracting substances from unfavorable locations on Earth than to ever mine anything from the Moon.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: What is the deal with all the astronaut stuff we are getting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    I reject the principle of a crucible is necessary to do innovation.

    It is merely industrial policy and a nation state or a way too rich billionaire deciding to do industrial policy. Then artificial crucibles can be more effective than actual crucibles, especially if space is way too hostile that you are not actually doing actual learning for it takes too long to set up even the first iteration of the experiment, especially a successful iteration of the experiment that will not kill the humans at the space station, moon base, mars base, etc.

    I repeat what I said earlier. Pay people to set up "self-contained biospheres" on earth with cargo containers. Learn from those experiments, do hundreds of those experiments for a fraction of the cost than it takes to do one successful experiment in space, or on an asteroid, moon, mars, etc for there is a 100x cost due to how expensive rocket fuel is. It costs $10k per lb of stuff to put into space, and the Falcon Heavy brings it down to what? $1k per lb, other people think it is closer to $500 per lb ... I think the estimate is? (with the Falcon 1 and Falcon 9 being in between the costs of those two.)

    I am not against rocket technology (for rockets put cool satellites, probes, etc into space and they pay for themselves.) But lets get the biology stuff done pat prior to putting all that expensive stuff into space to support our meat sacks for I love my meat sack, I think most 7 billion people love their meat sacks, but it is so hard to use very little resources in space to keep our meat sacks in a health space, let alone other problems like keeping the atmosphere and so on the right balance to grow plants, keep our human selves, etc balanced. Biosphere 2 in the 90s was a [censored] disaster. The problem though with Biosphere 2 is we never iterated and did it on a more massive scale learning from individual successes, repeating it again and again till we figured it out.

    Figure out how to do the stuff on Earth first prior to sending it into Space!
    Why are you setting up self contained biospheres, if spaceflight is not a priority?

    You seem to think space is "get there, then figure it out." I am hard pressed to think of anything that COULD be further from the truth. Everything DOES get figured out here on earth before it ever goes into space, because getting to space is so hard in the first place. But it is the INTENT to go to space that leads to pushing the boundaries of engineering.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Ah, classic DW. Sometimes I enjoy in the way it was intended (The Daleks), other times in unintended ways (The Web Planet). It's amazing how many convincing monsters you can make out of bubble wrap, foam, and good acting (heck, in the Troughton years they sometimes didn't even use the first two).
    And in the (insert punchline doctor) years they didn't use the last two

    They did seem to have much more variety.

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakaydos View Post
    Why are you setting up self contained biospheres, if spaceflight is not a priority?
    Numerous reasons. One of which is Spaceflight may be a long term goal but also things like greenhouses may be better way to grow food. Port in power from someplace else like the desert and then literally do vertical farming and so on. This in turn allow less farmland to be used and possibly allow us to recreate other ecosystems we may have destroyed such as forests and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakaydos View Post
    You seem to think space is "get there, then figure it out." I am hard pressed to think of anything that COULD be further from the truth. Everything DOES get figured out here on earth before it ever goes into space, because getting to space is so hard in the first place. But it is the INTENT to go to space that leads to pushing the boundaries of engineering.
    Scientists and Engineers may get this, but the general public and politicians do not. Once you start making people realize Space is not about out there, but creating a better life here we may get the industrial policy and sustainability stuff that I crave. I also think it allows more Space out there for Space out there problem is partly cost (there are dozens of other reasons.)

    But if you do not focus on how to make Space cheap then no industrial policy will occur, it will be seen as wasted money. We only spent 3 years and 5 months sending people to the Moon and touching the lunar surface. Of course we did far more than that, but lots of those stuff was trial runs, robots, etc. I am for science exploration, rockets, etc, but lots of those things should not require people and doing people just makes everything more complicated, more expensive, wastes money, and delivers little benefit.

    If the goal is humans in safe, research biospheres. If the goal is to explore space then more rockets and more robots. I tire of magical thinking that is all. Lots of space advocates are really just male fanboys who engage in magical thinking.
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: What is the deal with all the astronaut stuff we are getting?

    Quote Originally Posted by jayem View Post
    And in the (insert punchline doctor) years they didn't use the last two

    They did seem to have much more variety.
    Eh, I think my original punchline worked well. Troughton is pretty much the punchline Doctor for bad monsters, while the Hartnell years had some terrible moments with things like visible zips on the Sensorites and the Zarbi Troughton had stories where the monsters were invisible or some kind of invisible gas to help with saving money on costumes. Although at the same time his years brought us great effects work such as Ramon Salamander and apparently managing to make the rather silly Macra prop scary via angles, lighting, and mist. While I could punch at the years of my least favourite Doctors (*cough* new series Macra are much less scary *cough*) I find it's more enjoyable to poke fun at the shortcomings of some of my favourite years. 'They couldn't afford decent monsters, but could still sell it with the acting.'
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: What is the deal with all the astronaut stuff we are getting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caledonian View Post
    ALL paths lead to the extinction of humanity as a species. ALL of them!
    That depends on your definitions of "humanity", "extinction", and "path".
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: What is the deal with all the astronaut stuff we are getting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Numerous reasons. One of which is Spaceflight may be a long term goal but also things like greenhouses may be better way to grow food. Port in power from someplace else like the desert and then literally do vertical farming and so on. This in turn allow less farmland to be used and possibly allow us to recreate other ecosystems we may have destroyed such as forests and so on.



    Scientists and Engineers may get this, but the general public and politicians do not. Once you start making people realize Space is not about out there, but creating a better life here we may get the industrial policy and sustainability stuff that I crave. I also think it allows more Space out there for Space out there problem is partly cost (there are dozens of other reasons.)

    But if you do not focus on how to make Space cheap then no industrial policy will occur, it will be seen as wasted money. We only spent 3 years and 5 months sending people to the Moon and touching the lunar surface. Of course we did far more than that, but lots of those stuff was trial runs, robots, etc. I am for science exploration, rockets, etc, but lots of those things should not require people and doing people just makes everything more complicated, more expensive, wastes money, and delivers little benefit.

    If the goal is humans in safe, research biospheres. If the goal is to explore space then more rockets and more robots. I tire of magical thinking that is all. Lots of space advocates are really just male fanboys who engage in magical thinking.
    Thing is, we know enough about biospheres for the medium term- not well enough for a perfectly sealed can with no resupply, but noone is planning perfectly sealed cans with no resupply for a long time. Apollo used big cans of powdered limestone, and that was enough to put men on the moon and bring them home, almost half a dozen times, plus several that didnt quite land. (8, 10, and 13, at least) The ISS goes months between resupply, and has a more elaborate system.

    But what we can NOT test on earth is what not having an earth below us (or 70 miles of air above us, even if the pressure is right) does to the human body... and what can be done to mitigate that. And yes, we started with animal studies- dogs and apes, initially, before the first man ever went into space at all. There's mice expiriments in the ISS right now. But ultimately to find out what happens to people, you need to send people.

    We now have decades of data on the human body in microgravity. The next question, is lunar and/or martian gravity. Like microgravity, we cant simulate that on earth. We can simulate it in LEO, but not in the same place we continue to test microgravity stuff. And ultimately, we need to test the difference between spin gravity and natural gravity.

    But all that is science, not engineering. Science poses a question- what would happen if X, Y and Z? Engineering makes sure X and Y happens at Z and you can see the result... but if Z is space, you still have to go to space to do the science.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Eh, I think my original punchline worked well. Troughton is pretty much the punchline Doctor for bad monsters, while the Hartnell years had some terrible moments with things like visible zips on the Sensorites and the Zarbi Troughton had stories where the monsters were invisible or some kind of invisible gas to help with saving money on costumes. Although at the same time his years brought us great effects work such as Ramon Salamander and apparently managing to make the rather silly Macra prop scary via angles, lighting, and mist. While I could punch at the years of my least favourite Doctors (*cough* new series Macra are much less scary *cough*) I find it's more enjoyable to poke fun at the shortcomings of some of my favourite years. 'They couldn't afford decent monsters, but could still sell it with the acting.'
    I'll be watching the Sensorites this week (on a much bigger screen than the original broadcast, and with a rewind button).
    As you say it's mostly true and a compliment (to Troughton at least), so I took it as being played straight.
    Which lead to wanting to poke fun with the easy inversion, but not want to accredit any specific actor with bad acting (I do like them all, really).

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: What is the deal with all the astronaut stuff we are getting?

    I think the Sixth Doctor is under-appreciated. Never got the chance to complete his development arc.
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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: What is the deal with all the astronaut stuff we are getting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caledonian View Post
    I think the Sixth Doctor is under-appreciated. Never got the chance to complete his development arc.
    We're just ignoring his time with Evelyn now?
    Last edited by Anonymouswizard; 2020-09-22 at 01:55 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: What is the deal with all the astronaut stuff we are getting?

    There's life Jim! But not as we know it...

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...very-suggests/

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    Default Re: What is the deal with all the astronaut stuff we are getting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    We're just ignoring his time with Evelyn now?
    I was about to say. She's one of the best companions and he was pretty good in those stories.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I was about to say. She's one of the best companions and he was pretty good in those stories.
    My first experience with Colin Baker's Doctor was the audios. The first two with him weren't engaging, but by the second Evelyn story I was hooked, due to the mixture of him actually getting meaningful character development in them and Evelyn being an amazing companion and one of the few who isn't in awe of the Doctor. I actually started skipping other stories just for more Six and Evelyn.

    Doctor Who really does need more companions in their fifties and older.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: What is the deal with all the astronaut stuff we are getting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caledonian View Post
    I think the Sixth Doctor is under-appreciated. Never got the chance to complete his development arc.
    The thing is, his TV run is legitimately bad. That’s mostly the result of behind-the-scenes shenanigans but it’s still true. The character has potential but wasn’t properly used on screen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    The thing is, his TV run is legitimately bad. That’s mostly the result of behind-the-scenes shenanigans but it’s still true. The character has potential but wasn’t properly used on screen.
    Colin Baker's doctor suffers from a variant of what happened to Paul McGann but arguably worse. McGann might be thought of as the guy who played the Doctor oncetwice, but he's agreed to be a good Doctor. Colin Baker had a bad TV run, due to both behind the scenes drama and only getting to play the first half (at best, a third or a quarter is more likely) of his planned character arc. And like McGann he's significantly more popular with people who engage in the EU because he gets legitimately good stories there as well as completing his character arc.

    Colin Baker got the traditional dodgy first season shared by most Doctors, and then never got his vastly improved second season due to the Trial of a Time Lord and being booted off the show (and not agreeing to come back for a regeneration story, but given how he was treated who can blame him).

    Then again, I also quite like the technicolour nightmare coat, so I might not be the best judge of quality (although it might have worked better if the rest of the outfit had been simpler).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: What is the deal with all the astronaut stuff we are getting?

    I don't know... I listened to a lot of the McGann audio stories, and his doctor never really clicked with me. I don't like him. Also, he has some utterly terrible stories. (Zagreus)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I don't know... I listened to a lot of the McGann audio stories, and his doctor never really clicked with me. I don't like him. Also, he has some utterly terrible stories. (Zagreus)
    I've not listened to all of them, but they certainly clicked for me. But that wasn't my point for him, my point was that for people who only watch the TV series he's pretty much a footnote, having appeared in the Movie and Night of the Doctor but not anything else, whereas if you're into the EU there's a whole host of audios and novels starring him, I hear the books even give him a boyfriend! For him it's less about quality and more about prominence, to many he's the actor who 'played the Doctor once', although I have to admit to really quite liking the Eighth Doctor and Lucie stories.

    Meanwhile Colin Baker did get a legitimately bad TV series run, but gets a quite frankly amazing run in the audios, at least partially due to his first audio-original companion being the best in any medium. It helps that there wasn't a need to build sets around the coat of many colours, but the Sixth Doctor audios tend to have the strong writing and engaging character development he needed (plus the Sixth Doctor gets Jubilee, one of the best DW serials ever).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Also, he has some utterly terrible stories. (Zagreus)
    What? Zagreus is a glorious mess!
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    Default Re: What is the deal with all the astronaut stuff we are getting?

    What came out of the Sensorite's (which I enjoyed), was how much the episodes from then, are like theatre (with recording breaks being 'expensive', and everything being week by week)

    Audio wise I've liked the 7th Dr ones more, Protect&Survive breaks normalish Dr who and film conventions (not in unique ways, they are pretty much copying "where the wind blows" )
    And Klein (with openly different motivations) & Rachel () are definitily different 'companions'.

    Though I suspect that's more a question of which I've heard and when.

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    Default Re: What is the deal with all the astronaut stuff we are getting?

    Has Dr. Who ever done any astronaut stuff? I mean, with astronauts from 20th or 21st century Earth human space programs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jayem View Post
    What came out of the Sensorite's (which I enjoyed), was how much the episodes from then, are like theatre (with recording breaks being 'expensive', and everything being week by week).
    Yes, also much slower and action-light, which I personally enjoy.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidSh View Post
    Has Dr. Who ever done any astronaut stuff? I mean, with astronauts from 20th or 21st century Earth human space programs?
    Yes. Although not always realistically, because Doctor Who is from the period where the 21st century was comprised of space years. So you've got stuff like The Wheel In Space where we've got space stations with artificial gravity in the 21st century and weirdly mention of disagreements like those in this very thread leading to sabotage. But at the same tone you've got stuff like The Waters of Mars bl using more realistic 20th century space tech.

    This is because the Time War destroyed the Raygun Gothic twenty first century we have to have and replaced it with the current version, or something like that. And took our 21st century space catsuits with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: What is the deal with all the astronaut stuff we are getting?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidSh View Post
    Has Dr. Who ever done any astronaut stuff? I mean, with astronauts from 20th or 21st century Earth human space programs?
    There are episodes of the Second and Third Doctor's eras where regular astronauts doing normal astronaut thing stumble on alien stuff if that's what you're asking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    There are episodes of the Second and Third Doctor's eras where regular astronauts doing normal astronaut thing stumble on alien stuff if that's what you're asking.
    The 1st Doctor's last episode is also spacey and very 'normal' for the first part.
    The 4th Doctor also has at least one.
    And some of the new ones ("waters of mars", "day of the moon" [historic], "kill the moon"[now you see why they don't do many... :grin: ])

    Ironically as soon as we landed on the moon until we stopped the Doctor was earthbound... (with 4 or so Timelord shenanigans).

    I think for most of the shows at the time, they were expecting to be now contemporary, it is Space 1999 and 2001 a Space Odyssey for a reason.

    So back to the OP:
    50 Year Anniversary (topical)
    China,India&SpaceX missions give hope of new progress again, make it topical, and give need to Americanise the story

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    Default Re: What is the deal with all the astronaut stuff we are getting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    There are episodes of the Second and Third Doctor's eras where regular astronauts doing normal astronaut thing stumble on alien stuff if that's what you're asking.
    To be fair al to them, the first part of the Third Doctor's era was basically Doctor Who: the Quatermass years (I've not got to the Pertwee serials yet, still got an entire season of Troughton to go, but it's the clearest inspiration for the pre-Three Doctors Earthbound serials).

    And yeah, The Tenth Planet is also a relatively realistic astronaut story (before the Cybermen show up), just focused on Mission Control instead of the astronauts themselves. But considering how many genres Doctor Who has dabbled in the lack of such a story would be more weird.
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    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  26. - Top - End - #116
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: What is the deal with all the astronaut stuff we are getting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Well I am disappointed in that people starve in a world of 7 billion people where we plant and grow enough food to feed everyone yet we do not have the will to distribute the food to everyone. Literally letting food "perish" with food waste, literally spilling milk on the ground for we decide we want a consistent minimum price on the part of farmers. So much disapointment.

    But more seriously, if people have differences of opinion, and are strangers, you are not going to change their mind by telling them you are disappointed in them or that they should be ashamed of themselves (not something you did it is just a similar thing other people do from time to time.)



    The future is people. Why do I care about Space Tourism that will cost at minum $200k for a week trick when I can't afford a house on this piece of earth? (let alone a trip to Disney-World on this earth?)

    Selling me a dream that I can not cash, that most people in the United States can not cash. And the US only has 330 million people, how about the 7.3 billion other people (7.6 billion total) who also can't cash that check you are trying to "sell" with the idea of Space Tourism. What about them?

    The future is people, it always has been people. The future is not more minerals, or some idea of exotic minerals. We have the tech to make our current world more sustainable yet it is not enough, why not focus on improvements of sustainable tech instead of the future which supposedly is Space Tourism.
    You are entitled a house. Everyone starving on Earth is entitled to food.

    But Disney vacations every year are where I draw the line.

    For humanity to stop and ultimately reverse climate change it will have to make incredible sacrifices. Those sacrifices include giving up CO2 emitting vacations.

  27. - Top - End - #117
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: What is the deal with all the astronaut stuff we are getting?

    One of the best documentaries I have ever seen!


  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Default Re: What is the deal with all the astronaut stuff we are getting?

    The more money one has, the easier it is to make money.
    Once basic needs are filled, additional money is little more than running up a score.
    It is hard to find legitimate expenses that return that money back to the economy, especially since Regan eliminated the 90% tax bracket (and people like Sanders are called communist for wanting to restore the top bracket to 80%)

    Space tourisim is something that can be done to offer billionares who have nothing else worth spending on, something not available for any lesser amount of money. The "vacation cost" pays for actual work being done by the company. It is not an advancement of science any more than going to an airshow advances the state of aeronautics design.

    There is exactly one mars lander that has had any kind of serious design work behind it. The company making it is offering a joyride to a Japanese fashion designer billionaire and 11 of his friends, for extra money to develop their lander. They have also interested NASA in using a modified version of their mars lander on the moon, for the Artemis program. This has to be delivered by 2024.

  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: What is the deal with all the astronaut stuff we are getting?

    Quote Originally Posted by CmdrShep2183 View Post
    You are entitled a house. Everyone starving on Earth is entitled to food.

    But Disney vacations every year are where I draw the line.

    For humanity to stop and ultimately reverse climate change it will have to make incredible sacrifices. Those sacrifices include giving up CO2 emitting vacations.
    I dunno about you, but if your plan requires me to give up things like entertainment and travel and be content with food and housing, I'm not interested in it.

    Life isn't about just barely surviving.

    Space travel as entertainment isn't a bad thing. It may not be super popular or affordable now, but there's nothing wrong with people taking inspiration from it.
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2020-09-29 at 12:52 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: What is the deal with all the astronaut stuff we are getting?

    People in Bangladesh and on the Maldives are also entitled to a house and food. Our entertainment can't continue to come at the cost of their bare necessities.
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