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Thread: Theory about Monster Hollow
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2020-09-16, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Theory about Monster Hollow
I seem to have a vague recollection of a 2nd edition Baldurs Gate character; a female Halfling who wanted to be a Paladin but couldn't because 2e had class restrictions for non-humans. Maybe Serini 'wanting to be a paladin' (I'm putting it in quotes because I'm not convinced she wasn't just spit-balling to pass the time) was a reference to the Baldurs Gate character.
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2020-09-17, 08:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
Re: Theory about Monster Hollow
I'm a fan of the idea that the Monster Hollow is something of a shell game, but not exactly.
It's purpose is two fold in this idea.
The first purpose is to either kill or keep people busy that are not worthy of visiting the gate.
Individuals whom are unworthy will not be able to meet the requirement for which the Monster Hollow was built.
The second purpose is to create scenarios where individuals can prove they are worthy of knowing the true location of the gate.
How would this be accomplished?
The various caverns are filled with monsters that can provide experience for an epic level lich... so they are crazy strong.
Most parties would be hard pressed to get through such encounters with everyone alive.
To pass the test, somebody would need to commit a act of pure self-sacrifice.
Maybe nobody would need to die, but the idea of sacrificing for the greater good seems a fitting memorial.
So, the gate isn't actually within the Monster Hollow... or if it is, there isn't a direct path from the outside.
However, the only way to learn of the true location/gain access is to pass the test of displaying true self-sacrifice (ex. pushing a friend out of an attack to take a killing blow).
This would keep most evil being busy for a long time (if it didn't kill them outright) as they just wouldn't get the idea or take the risk.
Additionally, it would be interesting if this is how Durkon and Minrah survive.
One sacrifices their-self to protect the other from RC and Xykon... suddenly they both are *pop* teleported away.
More kill steals from Xykon.Last edited by mashlagoo1982; 2020-09-17 at 08:37 AM.
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2020-09-17, 08:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2018
Re: Theory about Monster Hollow
The gate is in the location of the rift iirc so it’s there somewhere not a different location
'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómë!" The night is passing!"
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2020-09-17, 08:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
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Re: Theory about Monster Hollow
if the doors are too close together to sport real dungeons, and the stone is multidimensional, maybe every door leads to a small pocket-dimension dungeon? maybe more then one?
not sure how exactly that helps guard a dimentionally locked gate buut... *shrug* might explain how the monsters replenish? every so often a gateway to the semi-elemental plane of Manticores opens up or something?Avy by Thormag
Spoiler
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2020-10-09, 07:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Theory about Monster Hollow
(This looks like a good time to get back on this one, so) I personally believe that the corridors behind each door are mostly straight and they lead to shafts. The length of the corridors varies, so the shafts do not open into each other. The depth of the shafts varies, so there is enough space for many dungeons because they are not on the same level.
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2020-10-09, 08:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2020
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2020-10-09, 08:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Theory about Monster Hollow
That's not at all what I mean. Permit me to give you an example: Door 1 (20 m above ground level) leads to Corridor 1 which is 52 m long and which leads to Shaft 1 which is 124 m deep. Shaft 1 leads to Dungeon 1 which is a visually complex dungeon at a depth of 104 m. Door (directly below Door 1) leads to Corridor 2 which is 8 m long and which leads to Shaft 2 which is 140 m deep. Shaft 2 leads to Dungeon 2, a visually complex dungeon at a depth of 122 m.
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2020-10-09, 02:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2020
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Re: Theory about Monster Hollow
We already had the deception and shell game thing at Girard's pyramid. Personally I hope Monster Hollow is exactly what we are told it is: a huge dungeon (maybe random generated or extradimensional) full of dangerous monsters with the rift at the end.
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2020-10-10, 07:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2020
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2020-10-10, 07:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: Theory about Monster Hollow
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2020-10-11, 09:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: Theory about Monster Hollow
Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-10-11 at 09:41 AM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2020-10-11, 06:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Theory about Monster Hollow
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2020-10-13, 09:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Theory about Monster Hollow
(Interesting fact: Xykon's calling the dungeon they enter a level (page no. 2, panel no. 9) is consistent with my hypothesis.)
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2020-10-13, 09:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2014
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- A Michigan Far, Far Away
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Re: Theory about Monster Hollow
Am I way off track or wasn't there a requirement back in Old D&D days (2nd ed, 3.0, 3.5, maybe all the way back to the Blue Box) that a Thief/Rogue had to be a non-Lawful alignment, on the theory that stealing things for a living is basically not lawful? So the way I took it was Serini trolling Soon, the most uptight member of the party, and Soon's reaction was analogous to V's when Elan announced he was going to take Wizard levels. I mean, look at the expression on his face. That's a frown.
A very interesting suggestion that the bugbears are secretly working with or for Serini, but what's their motivation? Can we come up with a plausible reason they would strike a deal with a lone retired halfling adventurer?
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2020-10-13, 10:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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Re: Theory about Monster Hollow
In Basic, thieves could not be Lawful (note that the alignment axis there was simply Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic, with no good or evil).
Thieves could not be good-aligned in first edition AD&D; in 2E they could have any alignment other than Lawful Good.
3.0 and 3.5 D&D placed no alignment restrictions upon the Rogue class.
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2020-10-13, 10:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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- Beverly, MA, USA
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Re: Theory about Monster Hollow
A combination of plenty of food, supplies, and pay (if they’re interested in money - they might not have much use for it up at the North Pole) would likely be enough to buy the loyalties of a tribe, especially a remote one with few other options for attaining a reasonably secure lifestyle. They may prefer to hunt for their food and supplies, and Serini may be helping them to safely take down some of the monsters, either by weakening them or by luring them to a place where they can be safely trapped and killed.
I don’t believe for a second that this is actually happening, but in principle, I don’t see why it couldn’t be. The best argument against it is “Oona seems pretty loyal to Team Evil so far, and we have no evidence of this being true,” but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and Oona hasn’t really faced a serious test of loyalty to Team Evil (vis-a-vis Serini) yet, at least as far as we know.
It’s a fun theory, anyway, no matter how unlikely it is.Last edited by Emanick; 2020-10-13 at 10:37 PM.
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2020-10-13, 10:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Theory about Monster Hollow
Rules Cyclopedia (that includes not just D&D Basic, but Expert, Companion, and Master) says that Chaotic is mostly associated with Evil and Law mostly associated with Good - but allows exceptions.
Some monsters are specifically called out as being Chaotic, and and the same time, it states that 50% of these monsters are Good, and 50% are Evil. Others are Lawful and their behaviour is specifically called out as Evil.
It also does not appear to have any alignment restrictions on thieves as far as I can tell. An early edition of Basic (Eric Holmes was one of the names on the cover) had True Neutral include "all thieves" - but this looked more like a hybrid of AD&D and regular Basic D&D. It had 5 alignments - TN, LG, CG, LE, CE)
Later versions of Basic went to Lawful, Neutral, Chaotic - and dropped any alignment restriction on thieves. A thief does not have to steal (though according to the book, most do) - the class's speciality is stealth, lockpicking, trap removal, etc. You could plausibly have an "Adventuring thief" who never steals from civilians - they only remove traps in dungeons, to assist their party members.Last edited by hamishspence; 2020-10-13 at 10:45 PM.
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2020-10-14, 01:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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Re: Theory about Monster Hollow
My bad, there; I have no play experience pre-3.5, so put it down to bad research on my part.
To return to the matter of Serini, specifically, I find it more parsimonious to take her at her word than to assume it was a roundabout insult.
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2020-10-14, 09:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2014
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Re: Theory about Monster Hollow
Maybe "insult" is more than I was trying to convey, I was trying to get across the idea of "teasing". When I used the word "trolling", I can see why it came out that I was saying she was insulting Soon.
From that one panel, I got the impression that Serini was the joker of the group, very much like Elan. Dorukan's comment, that "maybe she would march in stoic silence for a change", supports that she's a light-hearted chatterbox- the opposite of stoic and silent. So when she suggested becoming a Paladin I felt she was getting under Soon's skin, but not in a mean-spirited way.
I realize that's a lot of interpretation to draw from a single crayon panel, but that's the genius of OOTS- an economy of words and images that can relay enormous amounts of characterization in such a small space.
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2020-10-17, 06:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2018
Re: Theory about Monster Hollow
I have read somewhere in this thread a theory about "forgotten sacrifice" as the key to this Gate.
My own theory is also about sacrifice. The Gate will only appear if someone makes a voluntary, altruistic sacrifice. That will exclude evil adventurers, like the Dorukan sigil, and will be a fitting tribute to the self-sacrifice of Kraagor.
It will be self-sacrifice, not strenght, the quality that Serini wanted to remember from Kraagor.Life is like a ladder in a henhouse; it is short, but full of guano.
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2020-10-17, 09:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: Theory about Monster Hollow
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2020-10-17, 09:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2019
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2020-10-20, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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Re: Theory about Monster Hollow
Mazzy Fentan! Such a fun and even inspiring character. Man, I loved how unique they made each party member in that game.
While I'm preparing myself for a heroic sacrifice in this Book (most likely Belkar), I really don't see the story featuring it as an explicit mechanic like the MCU Soul Stone. That scene was my least favorite part of Endgame -- specifically because the rule is so blatantly contrived for maximum drama. Though in fairness, it was damn cool when it showed up in The Black Cauldron.
I think Rich has even said outright that he's never going to write a story where the "correct" answer is suicide. That's what this would feel like if it was explained in-story as a choice, and if it wasn't explained -- if it just happened when someone made a sacrifice -- that would be a confusing moment in the story. Kraagor was established as believing in the power of physical might, and it's said Serini took that to heart when she build Kraagor's Tomb.
As others have said, we did the shell game and the double bluffs in both of the last "Gate" books (the 3 Xykons, and "Sorry, Your Gate Is in Another Pyramid"). I can see a different faction (say, Orange & Green) using trickery, but I'm willing to take Kraagor's Tomb at face value until I have a reason to do otherwise.
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2020-10-20, 01:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
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2020-10-20, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
Re: Theory about Monster Hollow
While it doesn't need to be self-sacrifice, I would be bothered if some act of selflessness wasn't required.
I hope it is more then "Durrr big muscles smashes things..."
I get that Kraagor was a strong character and valued strength, but I want to believe that Serini saw something more in Kraagor then just his muscles.
The type of requirement to gain access to the final gate imo will be a reflection of what Serini admired in Kraagor.
Considering how the location has already been presented, a likely trait seems to be Kraagor's selfless behavior.
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2020-10-20, 03:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2019
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Re: Theory about Monster Hollow
I always take Serini's comment about being a paladin analogous to Elan's several delusions.
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2020-10-20, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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Re: Theory about Monster Hollow
Why on earth would Serini's decision to reflect his belief in the power of physical might be a bad thing, an insult, or anything negative whatsoever? What's the problem with being strong and using that physical strength to make the world better? It's kind of insulting to imply that every person who enjoys being strong is an idiot meathead. As if they're incomplete without someone smart or clever to tell them what to do?
And anyway, where is this idea coming from, that the Gate's defenses **must** be a thesis statement on the character's entire personality?
Lirian's, Dorukan's, Soon's, and Girard's defenses could all be effectively summed up as "Nature," "Magic," "Honor," and "Deception." They all received as much characterization as Kraagor got, and their defenses were all relatively uncomplicated, except for a single twist (Ghost-martyrs, "Epic-Level Phantasm & Gate in Another Pyramid," Lirian's *special* life forms, Pure of Heart sigil).
The finale of this epic saga is already complicated enough. We've got world-ending threats, meddling fiends, a Snarl-world, a Goblin extremist, negotiations, God Stuff, a doomed halfling who's just now becoming a good guy, and secret plans galore...
I'm calling Hanlon's Razor on Kraagor's Tomb. Sometimes a monster-filled dungeon is just a monster-filled dungeon, and that's perfectly okay. If your story is ONLY plot twists, there isn't much plot to work with.Last edited by Ionathus; 2020-10-20 at 04:28 PM.
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2020-10-20, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: Theory about Monster Hollow
shrug
I know a guy named Atlas who might wish to subscribe to your newsletter. I think he was the guy Bob Dylan wrote about in the lyric 'everybody must get stoned'Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2020-10-21, 07:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
Re: Theory about Monster Hollow
Last edited by mashlagoo1982; 2020-10-21 at 07:59 AM.
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2020-10-21, 08:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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