The Boys (Amazon)

[Bunny Commando]

However, I think GloatingSwine makes a good point -- this series also seems to have baked into it (explicitly in the comics, but they still bleed through into the show) allegories we can't dissect here that seem very appropriate to events of the 2000-2010 era.

Agree. However the TV series has done a remarkable job to address more recent events with the characters of Stormfront and, since last episode, Homelander. Stormfront's use of social media is especially relevant, IMHO.

[GloatingSwine]

Agree on the tiptoeing. 'These issues are still pertinent' is valid.


Oh, absolutely. My point, at least, is not that the Snyder version of DC, nor the Avengers at all, would be appropriate to this type of deconstruction, but instead that it is interesting that they are producing this series now, when the Snyder interpretation is the most recent version many-to-most viewers would be familiar, and also while the MCU characters are the most prominent superhero characters at the moment.

The TV show is very much impacted by the MCU. The superhero-as-celebrity angle is much more prominent in the TV show than in the comic, for instance. It's not not there in the comic, but the comics hail from a time when superheroes were nowhere near the public consciousness to the extent they are now and that wouldn't have been as accessible a storyline to as many people.

[JeenLeen]

I felt "meh" about the series at the end of Season 1, so didn't plan on watching Season 2. But I started up anyway, after reading some of the spoilers here.

I usually hate spoilers of even the smallest fashion, but I think knowing some stuff in advance has helped me appreciate the stuff I've seen so far. Like, the hints at Stormfront's negative traits are things I probably would have missed if not for knowing them ahead of time.

Spoiler: Stormfront action spoiler

Show

Also, I would likely have just been confused when she started casually killing black civilians, instead of seeing it as a depiction of her racism.

Also, I had no idea that Stormfront's name would have any racist overtones (though a quick Google search revealed to me why it does), so her picking that name makes a bit more sense based on what I read here.

But I'm enjoying Season 2 more than I thought I would. Though it feels like

Spoiler

Show

Homelander is open more about his insecurities and evilness than he seemed in Season 1. In Season 1, he seemed to mostly keep it secret. at least outside the Seven. I even got the impression he would openly be against the debauchery we see supers engage in (e.g., the club early in S1). But at least Doppelganger knows about his... unusual interests... and he leaves the Daredevil-esque guy alive. I see him scaring his handler into obedience, but leaving a witness seems out-of-character compared to S1. Also seems odd he hasn't tried to kill or at least threaten Stormfront into obedience almost immediately.

[Wraith]

Though it feels like...

VERY mild spoiler about a theme, no details or names given:

Spoiler

Show

If the TV show stays true to the comics, as it seems to have done so in this regard, Homelander's increasingly unpleasant behaviour is part of a longer arc that ultimately drives the plot of the story. What he has done, and how, and the way in which it escalates, goes a lot deeper than just "he is evil and starting to act like it".

Keep an eye on it - there might already have been clues, if you're sharp

[Bartmanhomer]

Most of the heroes are Chaotic Evil except for Starlight (though I think she's leaning from Lawful Good to Lawful Neutral in the second season).

[Psyren]

I wouldn't put Maeve or Deep at evil either. And A-Train is also leaning more neutral these days I'd say. All three of them are just in over their heads.

Interesting too that two of those characters also wouldn't fit with

Spoiler

Show

Stormfront's true agenda, which was revealed in episode 6 yesterday. Yes, it's as bad you think it is, if not worse.

.

[Bartmanhomer]

I wouldn't put Maeve or Deep at evil either. And A-Train is also leaning more neutral these days I'd say. All three of them are just in over their heads.

Interesting too that two of those characters also wouldn't fit with

Spoiler

Show

Stormfront's true agenda, which was revealed in episode 6 yesterday. Yes, it's as bad you think it is, if not worse.

.

Yeah it sounds like it. Stormfront and Homelander are the only two superheroes who are evil.

[Bunny Commando]

Interesting too that two of those characters also wouldn't fit with

Spoiler

Show

Stormfront's true agenda, which was revealed in episode 6 yesterday. Yes, it's as bad you think it is, if not worse.

.

Spoiler

Show

I would put all three in that list. I assume the one you didn't put on the list is the Deep, but if you think she may believe he doesn't have a "perfect body". And I do agree: it's worse than I thought. With the benefit of hindsight it was obvious what was happening, but still...

[Peelee]

Most of the heroes are Chaotic Evil except for Starlight (though I think she's leaning from Lawful Good to Lawful Neutral in the second season).

Why do you think Starlight is Lawful and Stormfront is Chaotic?

But I'm enjoying Season 2 more than I thought I would. Though it feels like

Spoiler

Show

Homelander is open more about his insecurities and evilness than he seemed in Season 1.

I don't think so; I think we're just getting the veil pierced even more. When S1 first dropped, I watched it with a friend who had apparently already read the comics long ago. When Homelander showed up, I immediately took issue with the fact that he straight-up just murders a guy. Meanwhile, nobody in-universe blinked. I thought it was bad writing. My friend assured me that no, it was in no way bad writing and I was just picking up on what they wanted me to pick up on. But even then, he's (kind of) portrayed as actually heroic. We get the slow reveal of him doing more and more messed up stuff. But that wasn't the start of it, he'd been doing stuff like that the whole time. He was comfortable killing the guy in public in the first three minutes of the pilot. It's just that in the beginning, we see mostly from the public's perspective and slow see more and more behind-the-scenes reality, and in season 2, that door is still opening. Everything behind the door has been there the whole time, though.

I wouldn't put Maeve or Deep at evil either. And A-Train is also leaning more neutral these days I'd say. All three of them are just in over their heads.

Interesting too that two of those characters also wouldn't fit with

Spoiler

Show

Stormfront's true agenda, which was revealed in episode 6 yesterday. Yes, it's as bad you think it is, if not worse.

.

I liked how episode 6 made me go "WHAT THE ****" multiple times, despite more or less knowing what to expect from the rest of the show.

[Bartmanhomer]

Why do you think Starlight is Lawful and Stormfront is Chaotic?


I don't think so; I think we're just getting the veil pierced even more. When S1 first dropped, I watched it with a friend who had apparently already read the comics long ago. When Homelander showed up, I immediately took issue with the fact that he straight-up just murders a guy. Meanwhile, nobody in-universe the blinked. I thought it was bad writing. My friend assured me that no, it was in no way bad writing and I was just picking up on what they wanted me to pick up on. But even then, he's (kind of) portrayed as actually heroic. We get the slow reveal of him doing more and more messed up stuff. But that wasn't the start of it, he'd been doing stuff like that the whole time. He was comfortable killing the guy in public in the first three minutes of the pilot. It's just that in the beginning, we see mostly from the public's perspective and slow see more and more behind-the-scenes reality, and in season 2, that door is still opening. Everything behind the door has been there the whole time, though.


I liked how episode 6 made me go "WHAT THE ****" multiple times, despite more or less knowing what to expect from the rest of the show.

Starlight: Someone in another thread mentioned that Starlight is Lawful Good

Stormfront: As for Stormfront it's obvious she breaks the rules and she kills people.

[Peelee]

Starlight: Someone in another thread mentioned that Starlight is Lawful Good

Good for that person, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking why you think Starlight is Lawful.

Stormfront: As for Stormfront it's obvious she breaks the rules and she kills people.

By this logic, all evil is Chaotic. I don't think Chaotic means what you think it means.

[Bartmanhomer]

Good for that person, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking why you think Starlight is Lawful.

By this logic, all evil is Chaotic. I don't think Chaotic means what you think it means.

Oh well, she's following the rules and law. I thought Chaotic means anarchy and disorder.

[Peelee]

Oh well, she's following the rules and law. I thought Chaotic means anarchy and disorder.

If you're using D&D alignment terms, "Lawful" does not mean "follows the law" and "Chaotic" does not mean "anarchy and disorder".

Further, even if that's what Lawful and Chaotic did mean, Stormfront is not Chaotic; she wantan incredibly rigidly ordered and structured system, to put it politely. And Starlight is trying to tear down the system she is a part of. So even under those definitions, you are misapplying them.

I kind of think you just equate Lawful with Good and Chaotic with Evil.

[Traab]

Good for that person, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking why you think Starlight is Lawful.

By this logic, all evil is Chaotic. I don't think Chaotic means what you think it means.

To me, lawful evil means you exploit the rules for personal profit, all while "technically" staying within the lines. Chaotic evil to me means everything you do is for your own personal benefit and you dont care if its against the rules or not. As a silly example, lawful evil would be the dm telling me I can only fit 1 50 foot rope with my gear, so I buy 12 and cut them in half because he didnt say anything about a limit on smaller size ropes. LOOPHOLE! A more reasonable example would be, a lawful evil rogue would abide by an agreement to not steal all the loot while scouting (but might take it later that night while you sleep) while a chaotic evil rogue would only STOP stealing it all if he stood to gain more of a profit by doing so. As an example, being warned that the next time he gets caught they draw and quarter him, using his body parts as hurled devices to trigger future traps in the dungeon.

[Bartmanhomer]

If you're using D&D alignment terms, "Lawful" does not mean "follows the law" and "Chaotic" does not mean "anarchy and disorder".

Further, even if that's what Lawful and Chaotic did mean, Stormfront is not Chaotic; she wantan incredibly rigidly ordered and structured system, to put it politely. And Starlight is trying to tear down the system she is a part of. So even under those definitions, you are misapplying them.

I kind of think you just equate Lawful with Good and Chaotic with Evil.

Maybe I think. Ok so Stormfront is Lawful Evil. I guess that makes Starlight Chaotic Good. Oops I did it again.

[ehsanmaster]

Yeah it sounds like it. Stormfront and Homelander are the only two superheroes who are evil.

What about Starlight?

[Bartmanhomer]

What about Starlight?

As I said before Starlight is good but may lean toward neutral.

[Psyren]

Black Noir is either evil or an automaton/mentally a child. Not that the latter precludes the former. I think of him as Thog but with Therkla's skills.

[Bartmanhomer]

Black Noir is either evil or an automaton/mentally a child. Not that the latter precludes the former. I think of him as Thog but with Therkla's skills.

No he's human alright.

Spoiler

Show

The burned human skin proves it.

[Tyndmyr]

I wouldn't put Maeve or Deep at evil either. And A-Train is also leaning more neutral these days I'd say. All three of them are just in over their heads.

Yeah it sounds like it. Stormfront and Homelander are the only two superheroes who are evil.

Spoiler

Show

Eh, the deep was, uh, rapey. That definitely qualifies him as evil in my book. He's at least recognizing that this was wrong, but as redemption goes, that's kind of light. He's still all focused on what HE wants, which doesn't seem like an awful lot of becoming good.

I believe it's intended to be a bit of a sendup of celebrity apology tours, and the perceived insincerity with which they are viewed. It's a more personal variant of how they treat corporate PR concerns.

Black Noir straight up murders whoever he's told to. He seems to have some yet unplumbed depth there, but his actions thus far have definitely included straight up executing innocent people, which pings as evil on pretty much all standards. He isn't *as* evil as some others, but he's still evil.

Lamplighter also, straight up executions. Yeah, maybe he didn't mean to execute *kids*, but he most definitely murders people.

Translucent was also pretty willing to murder people.

A-train murdered his own girlfriend. Also, accidentally killed another victim while running drugs to literally create superpowered terrorists.

There's a lot more than two evil supes in this show.

Made doubly weird because the guy in charge of (cinematic) Justice League for the past 7+ years is the poster child of doing superhero deconstructions (including both a movie version of Watchmen, and deconstructive takes on Superman and the Justice League), none of which have exactly been resounding successes.

Watchmen, the film, was underrated, I think. That said, I can totally understand why audiences were a bit put off at the idea of going to see a comic book film and getting full male nudity. If you read the graphic novel, and know what you're in for, it's a decent adaptation, but coming in blind, expecting something more akin to the usual spiderman fare, it's definitely not that.

Watchmen, the tv show, was a dumpster fire of unmitigated proportions that is sadly difficult to talk about within the board policies.

Snyder has specific talents. If you need someone to compress a story down into a brief clip and have it still carry weight, he's good at that. The origin story for Batman in BvS was good because it was short. Nobody in the audience really needed a two hour rehash of batman's origin story, so keeping that short and going on to tell a different story was the right call.

It was just unfortunate that the rest of the story sucked quite a lot.

And, even at Snyder's darkest and grittiest, I don't think he makes an adequate deconstruction. Yeah, he manages to portrays Superman as darker, but he's still mostly treating him as the "hero". Just a kinda bad, weak hero that doesn't always make sense. He isn't the villain in these stories, he isn't a source of terror. They're still portraying the world as mostly liking Superman. A good deconstruction has to be willing to actually change up the roles, and explore the changes, not tweak random things, but leave the rest of the world the same.

[Vrock Bait]

I have time and I prefer the comic so here’s my attempt at listing every expy character and who they’re an expy of.

Spoiler: Comic had way too many superheroes

Show

The Seven - Justice League

Homelander - Superman

Queen Maeve - Wonder Woman

Black Noir - Batman

A-Train - Flash (Wally West?)

The Deep - Aquaman

Jack from Jupiter (Translucent in the show) - Martian Manhunter

Lamplighter - Green Lantern

Marathon - Flash (Barry Allen?)

Payback - Avengers

Soldier Boy - Captain America

Tek Knight - Batman/Iron Man

Laddio - Bucky/Robin

Crimson Countess - Scarlett Witch

Mind Droid - Vision

Swatto - Spider-Man

Eagle The Archer - Hawkeye

G-Men - X-Men
G-Force - X-Force

John Godolkin - Professor X

Five Oh - Cyclops

Silver Kincaid - Jean Grey

Cold Snap - Iceman

Critter - Beast

Divine - ...Angel?? Possibly Northstar.

Nubia - Storm

Groundhawk - Wolverine

Europo - Nightcrawler

Flamer - ....Sunfire? Maybe Xorn.

Stacker - Colossus

Luckless - Domino or Psylocke?

Pusspuss - Wolfsbane

Teenage Kix - Teen Titans/New Warriors (this section is a lot of guessing)

A-Train - Wally West Kid Flash

Jet Streak - Airwave

Popclaw - X-23

Shout Out - Vox

Gunpower - ...Judge Dredd?

Dogsknott - Beast Boy

Yeah ok, I’m just spitballing at this point.
Maverikz - Outsiders
There was a Thor pastiche in Dear Becky too, but don’t really want to go into a series that isn’t complete.

If they’re not on there, like Stormfront or Starlight, it’s because I mostly believe they’re original creations. As the show goes on less and less characters start looking like expies so most of the ones I could figure out were characters from the early half of the series.

[LaZodiac]

Starlight is meant to be Starfire esque, and Stormfront is a pastiche of Thor and Shazam.

[Spacewolf]

Spoiler

Show

I'm kind of confused why lamplighter was a member of the seven while still being vulnerable to bullets, he seems pretty C tier to be honest. At the very least he seems scared of guns.

[Bartmanhomer]

Spoiler

Show

Eh, the deep was, uh, rapey. That definitely qualifies him as evil in my book. He's at least recognizing that this was wrong, but as redemption goes, that's kind of light. He's still all focused on what HE wants, which doesn't seem like an awful lot of becoming good.

I believe it's intended to be a bit of a sendup of celebrity apology tours, and the perceived insincerity with which they are viewed. It's a more personal variant of how they treat corporate PR concerns.

Black Noir straight-up murders whoever he's told to. He seems to have some yet unplumbed depth there, but his actions thus far have definitely included straight up executing innocent people, which pings as evil on pretty much all standards. He isn't *as* evil as some others, but he's still evil.

Lamplighter also, straight up executions. Yeah, maybe he didn't mean to execute *kids*, but he most definitely murders people.

Translucent was also pretty willing to murder people.

A-train murdered his own girlfriend. Also, accidentally killed another victim while running drugs to literally create superpowered terrorists.

There's a lot more than two evil supes in this show.



Watchmen, the film, was underrated, I think. That said, I can totally understand why audiences were a bit put off at the idea of going to see a comic book film and getting full male nudity. If you read the graphic novel, and know what you're in for, it's a decent adaptation, but coming in blind, expecting something more akin to the usual spiderman fare, it's definitely not that.

Watchmen, the tv show, was a dumpster fire of unmitigated proportions that is sadly difficult to talk about within the board policies.

Snyder has specific talents. If you need someone to compress a story down into a brief clip and have it still carry weight, he's good at that. The origin story for Batman in BvS was good because it was short. Nobody in the audience really needed a two-hour rehash of batman's origin story, so keeping that short and going on to tell a different story was the right call.

It was just unfortunate that the rest of the story sucked quite a lot.

And, even at Snyder's darkest and grittiest, I don't think he makes an adequate deconstruction. Yeah, he manages to portray Superman as darker, but he's still mostly treating him as the "hero". Just a kinda bad, weak hero that doesn't always make sense. He isn't the villain in these stories, he isn't a source of terror. They're still portraying the world as mostly liking Superman. A good deconstruction has to be willing to actually change up the roles and explore the changes, not tweak random things, but leave the rest of the world the same.

Well, you're right about everything the Seven is completely evil.

[JeenLeen]

On toughness

Spoiler

Show

It seems interesting how some supes have toughness in their power suit and others don't. As mentioned, most of the Seven seem to be immune to mundane damage like bullets. A-Train probably isn't, but he can outrun them. So the comment about Lamplighter makes sense.

Was it established early on that Starlight had super-durability? I've seen it in S2, but don't recall if it came up directly in S1. Sure, she might have survived a punch or two that'd KO/kill most people, but I can attribute that to "movie" durability. Like, we see Billy, M.M., and even Hughie still conscious and moving after some heavy blows.

And I was surprised to learn that Stormfront had super-durability. Well, actually not, since I saw a spoiler about it ahead-of-time, but nothing in the show made me think a few well-placed bullets couldn't end her until she got lasered.

Does it seem like there's any correlation between supernatural toughness and other powers? Or it's just as random as power generation seems to be.
Is The Deep supposed to be super-tough?
Like, I could envision someone with Homelander's powers except toughness, and they be useful but not as high-profile due to that. (Well, someone so close to Homelander would probably have an 'accident' and be dead by now, due to comparisons, but you get the idea.)


On evil:

Spoiler

Show

I can see all of the Seven, except Starlight, being evil. Though probably at least half are evil in a passive or fear-based way.

A-Train was selfish and motivated by his own wealth, but the murders he did were basically being controlled by Homelander (it was kill his girlfriend or die himself, or he saw it that way, I think) or while high. Not that being high excuses him, but it's negligence verses active murder. He did seem pretty torn up about it.

Queen Maeve has tolerated and put up with evil, in an effort to just not die. In a way, that makes her evil in that she's going along with it and letting it continue. She could definitely -- especially as of the latest episode -- ruin Vought's reputation, but she's probably be killed by Homelander. She's letting her fear for herself and those she loves coerce her into a corner of doing evil. Something one can be sympathetic to, and perhaps excuse, but she doesn't seem to want to stop it for Good reasons.

Translucent, Lamplighter, and Black Noir seem to have no problem killing people in their way. But, on the other hand, there're basically mercenaries. Not sure if they savor murder or not. (Lamplighter seems to, but it's unclear if that's a cover to help him cope with killing kids.)

And, outside the Seven, it seems like a lot of capes are kept in control by Vought's money or freedom of debauchery.

[Tyndmyr]

Spoiler

Show

At least modest physical aptitude seems to come with most of the good powers, though there is certainly a sliding scale, with Homelander at or torward the top end. Starlight can be seen in S1 Episode 1 lifting a car, and she takes a bullet in season 1 as well. This isn't homelander level, certainly, but it's above human normal.

A-train can be seen in S1 pulling a locomotive for a workout, and sustained no injury from a collision that literally splattered the normal human he ran into. He appears to also be at least decently stronger and tougher than average. Quite possibly more so than Starlight.

Lamplighter seems to be afraid of bullets. It also seems likely that the Deep has at least some vulnerability to physical force. He exhibited clear pain due to touching his gills, and while that whole scene is pretty uncomfortable, I think that'd illustrate that bullets there would probably be pretty bad for him. Given that the rest of the seven also seems to look down on him, I think that's further evidence against him having great strength or durability.

Does it seem like there's any correlation between supernatural toughness and other powers? Or it's just as random as power generation seems to be.

Faaairly random. There's not much evidence of durability for Doppleganger, Mesmer, and other B listers. Popclaw probably had at least some physical boosting given evidence, but her primary power isn't that amazing.

Translucent had the durability, but his strength didn't seem like anything special.

It may have to do with the purity or amount of compound V they were given, considering recent events.

[Vrock Bait]

Starlight is meant to be Starfire esque, and Stormfront is a pastiche of Thor and Shazam.

I don't know. Do you have a source for that? From my reading of the comic Starlight was just an original character who was meant to caricature "noblebright" superheroes using the symbolism of her powers. I guess Stormfront seems like Shazam in power and style, but I personally thought he was more like a representation of the Operation Paperclip trope. Jack from Jupiter really seems more like Batson because he has a magic word.

[LaZodiac]

I don't know. Do you have a source for that? From my reading of the comic Starlight was just an original character who was meant to caricature "noblebright" superheroes using the symbolism of her powers. I guess Stormfront seems like Shazam in power and style, but I personally thought he was more like a representation of the Operation Paperclip trope. Jack from Jupiter really seems more like Batson because he has a magic word.

I'll admit I haven't seen the show and am just basing this on what I've read, but "an outsider to the norms of this world with super strength and light powers" is basically the entire premise of Starfire, and Starlight is exactly that. It's just that where Starfire is an alien, Starlight is an optimistic Christian. She was not raised in the same corporate hellscape world of our herores and their dark society. Also both of them have good outfits that get ruined due to a desire to make them more sexualized, though that's more of a meta thing for Starfire.

As for Stormfront, she's got the obvious lightning power parallels from Thor, and a costume that is clearly inspired by Shazam. This is clearer in the comic where he's a dude who basically looks like Shazam just... you know, evil.

[Bunny Commando]

On toughness
Does it seem like there's any correlation between supernatural toughness and other powers? Or it's just as random as power generation seems to be.
Is The Deep supposed to be super-tough?
Like, I could envision someone with Homelander's powers except toughness, and they be useful but not as high-profile due to that. (Well, someone so close to Homelander would probably have an 'accident' and be dead by now, due to comparisons, but you get the idea.)

Spoiler: Superpowers

Show

Powers are quite random, that's why Stormfront is experimenting on people in S2E6: she's trying to improve the Compound V to increase the chance of having a supe with useful powers.

Spoiler: The Deep

Show

IMHO, the Deep's arc is not about redemption. He's deeply ashamed by his own body and have been humiliated by women in the past because of it, so Deep's coping mechanism is to humiliate and force himself upon women. He may be redeemable, but he should seek the help of trained professionals in order to fix his problems - but he's not doing that; Vought decided to just send him in a remote, small town where he couldn't damage the company's image too much and the Church of the Collective sees him as still marketable, convinced him to marry a complete stranger and put him back in the spotlight.
The Deep's story is about how celebrities are treated like products and how important is the public's opinion. Many people knew about the Deep's actions, yet didn't do anything about them because the public loved him and may well love him again, just because someone changed the narrative about him - but he, as a person, hasn't really changed and done anything to atone for his crimes.

Spoiler: Queen Maeve

Show

Queen Maeve is in an abusive relationship with Homelander: he wants to control her, and she doesn't have the power to stop him. Homelander decided to tell the world she was in a relationship with another woman, he gave her permission to be with her partner. Queen Maeve has a choice: either she submits to Homelander's authority or he may well kill her and everyone she cares about. Judging her as "evil" is a bit harsh, IMHO - she's living under constant threat of the most powerful man in the world.

[Psyren]

Starlight is (mostly) bulletproof and has super strength. Her main power of course is the ability to convert ambient electricity into focused photon blasts.

Episode 7 was a slow burn but the end was quite shocking - it's very unclear where the Boys go from here.