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  1. - Top - End - #841
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    1) In HTPGhS it's stated that hobgoblins have poorer vision at daylight than in the dark. Their vulnerability to sunlight is also referenced in the main comic, #0299.
    That one's a single gag against numerous scenes of hobgoblins having happy picnics, fighting battles and spotting „necromancers” approaching their checkpoints in broad daylight and the like. We also saw Redcloak shoot around with a deadly aim under the desert sun.
    Even more to the point: all goblinoid settlements we've seen thus far were on the surface, rather than underground or in cave systems.

    2) In HTPGhS it's stated that the hobgoblin city shown there is the largest goblinoid settlement on the surface. So the best Hobgoblins can do is still far from the big cities the humans (or dwarves, or gnomes, or lizardfolk) have been shown capable of developing.
    And what does that prove, exactly? If they are capable of creating a city of this size with layered defenses, they cannot be inherently incapable of organizing themselves. As for the fact that they can't and don't do it everywhere – that might have numerous reasons, including the possibility that they are prevented by others from doing so.

    3) Indication of a tendency to infighting is provided in the main comic by Redcloak complaining that there is a long history of Hobgoblins bullying goblins, and MitD referenced sectarean divisions between goblins and hobgoblins, with Oona agreeing to his political analysis.
    Yes, we have a juvenile prank there. Later yet, we see hobgoblins accepting a goblin as their Supreme Leader, and goblins cheering him happily together with hobgoblins in Gobbotopia City.
    Further, lack of cooperation and infighting are two vastly different things.
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-10-05 at 01:15 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #842
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Well here's a question to try to get things on track again:
    Assuming that goblins were created as disposable XP for the PC race clerics, and were placed in the areas of the worst resources at their creation, why are they still in the worst areas thousands of years after their creation?

    Is it the gods actively interfering to maintain the status quo?

    Are the goblins themselves or their culture what has kept them in terrible living spaces (vulnerability to sunlight, tendency to infight rather than organize against common enemy)?

    Or is it the PC races acting periodically to prevent the goblins from obtaining better lands? And if it is, are they motivated out of prejudice against goblinkind or because goblins genuinely are a threat to the peace of their kingdoms?

    Is there anyway to know any of this from the comic?
    Given the assumption, all three factors come into play quite readily. Goblins with few resources can scrabble in the dirt or try to obtain resources from their neighbors, peacefully or by force - there's no great mass of unoccupied land for them to move to. But they have little to offer peacefully and, as legitimate targets, are likely to be offered violence (may already have been offered violence), so initial peaceful efforts are likely to hit a wall. Violence is a crapshoot, but whoever hits the jackpot has the resources to control more goblins, building a culture of banditry and later invasion (and probably infighting as well - recruiting for raids, fighting over spoils, etc). That in turn becomes its own justification for the other races to fight them off (and to refuse later peaceful overtures from such a violent people). It would take remarkably little divine intervention beyond what was assumed to perpetuate the situation; the gods had already done quite enough.

    That is to say, if you want goblins to share the blame because of their violent culture, you can make that case - but remember that circumstances give rise to culture. So it will be difficult to blame goblin culture to the exclusion of other factors.

    All of this would have happened pre-TDO and there's nothing besides crayon to tell us what actually happened in that period.
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2020-10-05 at 01:22 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #843
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Wasn't there a timeline in the books?
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  4. - Top - End - #844
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    That one's a single gag against numerous scenes of hobgoblins having happy picnics, fighting battles and spotting „necromancers” approaching their checkpoints in broad daylight and the like. We also saw Redcloak shoot around with a deadly aim under the desert sun.
    Even more to the point: all goblinoid settlements we've seen thus far were on the surface, rather than underground or in cave systems.
    It's not a one single gag. HTPGhS provides plenty evidence that being hampered by sunlight and having better vision in the dark is a thing goblins build their culture around.

    Also, in HTPGhS it's explicitly mentioned that the hobgoblin village is the largest goblin settlement on the surface.

    Those are in-comic facts, and thus not open to debate.

    The fact that they have happy picnics in daylingt means nothing. We humans have most of our parties at nightime, and our sight is hampered at night.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    And what does that prove, exactly?
    It proves that the best they can organize is far less than the best other species can organize.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Yes, we have a juvenile prank there. Later yet, we see hobgoblins accepting a goblin as their Supreme Leader, and goblins cheering him happily together with hobgoblins in Gobbotopia City.
    Further, lack of cooperation and infighting are two vastly different things.
    MitD mentioned the historic sectarian divisions between goblins and hobgoblins. Oona agreed. Redcloak didn't object. So, it's just an in-comic fact, not open to debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Edit: The qualifier "on the surface" implies that there are larger hobgoblin settlements, they're just underground rather than on the surface.
    Yes. And the fact that they live predominantly underground would give a reason for why other races have more land - on the surface.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2020-10-05 at 02:04 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #845
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Wasn't there a timeline in the books?
    I don't remember seeing a timeline.

    It probably is a combination of all three options, but the least influential seems to be active intervention by the gods, especially since the goblins have had the Dark One in their court with at least nominal dominion over their species. Ironically the influence of the dieties is also the one Redcloak is most focused on.

  6. - Top - End - #846
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Thor says in 1140 that they're up to a few thousand years, give or take, so it may be less than 2000 but is probably not more than 3,000.
    Indeed, and the Gates (well, really, the destruction of the Gates) has very likely sped things up for a while. Even if not, just because they're up to a few thousand years doesn't mean every single world will last that long. For example, I can consistently beat Minesweeper in less than 150 seconds, but every so often I'll get to around 180.

    Regardless, I agree with you, and I simply choose to believe this world is most likely less than 2,000. And, regardless, upwards mobility is still difficult.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-10-05 at 02:30 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #847
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    I would note that Redcloak seems to think it is option #1 - the gods actively interfering to maintain the status quo.
    Why is that anyway? As far as we know, the gods officially have a position of non-interference outside of their domains.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  8. - Top - End - #848
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    It probably is a combination of all three options, but the least influential seems to be active intervention by the gods, especially since the goblins have had the Dark One in their court with at least nominal dominion over their species. Ironically the influence of the dieties is also the one Redcloak is most focused on.
    Opinions on Redcloak's focus have ranged from "The deities aren't actively intervening but that's where Redcloak's focus is, how silly" to "Redcloak mostly cares about resources and only brought up the divine aspect of oppression to prevent an accord with Durkon, how misguided." The only thing that stays the same is that whatever Redcloak is supposedly focused on makes him look bad because he should be focusing on the other thing.

    Also, "assuming divine intervention built the situation, it doesn't take much divine intervention to perpetuate the situation, so divine intervention is the least important part and it's ironic that Redcloak focuses on it" isn't really a consistent argument.
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2020-10-05 at 02:37 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #849
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Also, "assuming divine intervention built the situation, it doesn't take much divine intervention to perpetuate the situation, so divine intervention is the least important part and it's ironic that Redcloak focuses on it" isn't really a consistent argument.
    Sure it is. If the gods aren't actively doing anything to keep the goblins down or to boost the other races and in fact they can't do anything along those lines because it will risk creating another snarl, then blackmailing them won't solve anything for the goblins.

    Redcloak would be better served either changing goblin culture to allow them to be more unified and better succeed in building and conquest, or in working to convince the PC races to give goblins a more fair playing field. Durkon offered to help him with that option but Redcloak rejected it..

    Redcloak's support of the Plan seems to involve a basic misunderstanding of what the gods actually do for the PC races now and what limitations they operate under.

  10. - Top - End - #850
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Thinking on it, I'm going to adjust my stance a little.

    I had previously thought the gods did not interfere in the world, lest they create a snarl. But now I realize there are other way to intervene besides direct action. The gods can't interfere directly, but they can use mortals as their assistants/pawns, for which those mortals are rewarded when they reach the outer planes.

    Thus, I conclude that whenever some goblin decides to try to make things better a message goes down to a cleric. Next thing you know some adventuring party has a Quest Hook to Save The World from the Evil Goblin Menace. Which they succeed in very frequently -- after all , the universe as built is stacked in favor of high-level adventurers against hordes of low-level creatures. It doesn't help that goblins, for one reason or another , don't seem to do much in terms of the arcane. There's a funny scene in SOD where we meet the highest level goblin wizard in Redcloak's army ... Eugh. Suffice it to say, there's a reason why they're depending on Xykon for their arcane casting.

    ETA: Follow-up question: Why aren't there many high-level goblin wizards? Is it the world stacked against them, or something in their culture?

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2020-10-05 at 03:55 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #851
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    I think both gods and mortals are needed for this.

    The gods may not be able to fix everything by waving a magic wand, but they clearly have influence in the world. The Godsmoot is a divine affair but requires the participation of the high priests, so while Redcloak is having trouble getting attention from his god the other gods are capable of contacting their servants if needed.

    One part of the Godsmoot was Roy realizing that while the gods can't be trusted to do what is best for the mortal races, the servants of the gods also can't necessarily be trusted to go against the will of their deity even if said deity is in the wrong.

    And religion still plays an important role in the cultures of the world. If the gods tell their followers to continue treating goblinoids as free targets and sources of XP (assuming that this is actually true) that might hinder any attempt at reformation to the point of effectively rendering the attempt pointless.

    It'd be more likely to work if clerics all over the world receive the message from their respective gods that goblinoids must now be treated as equal which creates pressure on their leaders and makes them more likely to agree to negotiations in the material plane.

  12. - Top - End - #852
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Sure it is. If the gods aren't actively doing anything to keep the goblins down or to boost the other races and in fact they can't do anything along those lines because it will risk creating another snarl, then blackmailing them won't solve anything for the goblins.
    Sure, if we talk about an entirely different scenario than the one we were talking about and also change the subject, anything is possible.

    No, it is not ironic that Redcloak (supposedly) focuses on the divine oppression over the material given the agreed-to assumption that the divine oppression at the very least set the material oppression in motion. It may be unfortunate or misguided if it turns out the divine can't do anything about the ongoing material oppression. But that is not a given from this scenario either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Redcloak would be better served either changing goblin culture to allow them to be more unified and better succeed in building and conquest, or in working to convince the PC races to give goblins a more fair playing field. Durkon offered to help him with that option but Redcloak rejected it..

    Redcloak's support of the Plan seems to involve a basic misunderstanding of what the gods actually do for the PC races now and what limitations they operate under.
    All this is vaguely true, but requires a few specific points in response.

    Durkon is there with a divine bargain to save the world. Not exactly a scenario that challenges Redcloak's belief in the significance of divine intervention.

    Durkon frankly doesn't have anything concrete to offer Redcloak in terms of the material oppression. He's spitballing.

    Any material gains Redcloak has made are hostage to Xykon, who would quite likely rain terror on Gobbotopia out of spite if Redcloak abandoned the Plan. (I don't remember if the threat was explicitly made.) Even if Redcloak abandoned the divine perspective entirely, this would still be his only real option from the material perspective unless and until he can get rid of Xykon.

  13. - Top - End - #853
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    It's not a one single gag. HTPGhS provides plenty evidence that being hampered by sunlight and having better vision in the dark is a thing goblins build their culture around.

    Also, in HTPGhS it's explicitly mentioned that the hobgoblin village is the largest goblin settlement on the surface.

    Those are in-comic facts, and thus not open to debate.

    The fact that they have happy picnics in daylingt means nothing. We humans have most of our parties at nightime, and our sight is hampered at night.
    Again: we have seen several goblinoid settlement in the comic. All of them were above the ground, although mountains and such were generally available in the vicinity. This is a fact, and not open to debate.
    Again: we have seen goblinoids fight a war on the surface, in broad daylight. It did not seem to hamper them in any way; quite on the contrary: they won handily, despite their commanders forcing them into using suicide tactics and despite a castle exploding straight into their face. This is also a fact, and thus not open to debate.
    Again: Redcloak never complained about sunlight, was ordained as a priest under the open sky and retained his perfect aim even in the desert, despite missing an eye. These are facts and thus not open to debate.
    That is not to say goblinoids do not see better at dusk, or at night, or whatever. However, sunlight does not have any kind of debilitating effect on them, they can live on the surface and go about their business there without problems.



    It proves that the best they can organize is far less than the best other species can organize.
    I see. The fact (not open to debate) that with the limited resources at their disposal they built a city with tens of thousands of inhabitants, a keep and layered defenses; the fact (not open to debate) that this city could train, equip (with armour, shields and weapons) an army of able-bodied none-too-old males that was almost three times larger than what a major Southern nation could muster; the fact (not open to debate) that this army fought with a ridiculous discipline drung the battle of Azure City somehow all prove that hobgoblins are way too primitive to organize themselves as well as other races. Interesting take.



    MitD mentioned the historic sectarian divisions between goblins and hobgoblins. Oona agreed. Redcloak didn't object. So, it's just an in-comic fact, not open to debate.
    You misremember that one. Oona agreed with the notion that the other goblinid races do not care much about bugbears. Redcloak responded to that, ignoring the Monster.

    Yes. And the fact that they live predominantly underground would give a reason for why other races have more land - on the surface.
    Please do cite all examples of goblinoids living underground that we have seen in the comics (online or otherwise). Until then, based on what we have seen, we may assume that some of them live underground and might have at least one settlement comparable in szie with the Hobgoblin City, but nothing more than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Redcloak would be better served either changing goblin culture to allow them to be more unified and better succeed in building and conquest, or in working to convince the PC races to give goblins a more fair playing field.
    The Gobbotopia Project is all about that (pan-goblinoid state building diplomatic ties). He just does not think that will do on its own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong View Post
    I think both gods and mortals are needed for this.

    The gods may not be able to fix everything by waving a magic wand, but they clearly have influence in the world. The Godsmoot is a divine affair but requires the participation of the high priests, so while Redcloak is having trouble getting attention from his god the other gods are capable of contacting their servants if needed.

    One part of the Godsmoot was Roy realizing that while the gods can't be trusted to do what is best for the mortal races, the servants of the gods also can't necessarily be trusted to go against the will of their deity even if said deity is in the wrong.

    And religion still plays an important role in the cultures of the world. If the gods tell their followers to continue treating goblinoids as free targets and sources of XP (assuming that this is actually true) that might hinder any attempt at reformation to the point of effectively rendering the attempt pointless.

    It'd be more likely to work if clerics all over the world receive the message from their respective gods that goblinoids must now be treated as equal which creates pressure on their leaders and makes them more likely to agree to negotiations in the material plane.
    Seconded. Stickverse needs clerical magic badly: their entire medical system seems to be mostly built around churches, for instance. If they all agreed to put pressure on their followers, they could put pretty good pressure on them.
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-10-06 at 04:29 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #854
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Again: we have seen several goblinoid settlement in the comic. All of them were above the ground, although mountains and such were generally available in the vicinity. This is a fact, and not open to debate.
    We have a character stating that him's is one of the largest goblioid settlement on the surface.

    Which implies that his settlement is one of the pinnacles of goblin civilization. Unless there are far bigger goblin settlements underground, but those haven't been shown or mentioned. In any case, it implies also that enough goblins live underground to actually having to make the distinction between surface settlements and non-surface ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Again: we have seen goblinoids fight a war on the surface, in broad daylight. It did not seem to hamper them in any way; quite on the contrary: they won handily, despite their commanders forcing them into using suicide tactics and despite a castle exploding straight into their face. This is also a fact, and thus not open to debate.
    We have several goblinoid characters stating that their eyesinght is worse in the daylight.

    But you seem to know more about goblins than goblins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Again: Redcloak never complained about sunlight, was ordained as a priest under the open sky and retained his perfect aim even in the desert, despite missing an eye. These are facts and thus not open to debate.
    That is not to say goblinoids do not see better at dusk, or at night, or whatever. However, sunlight does not have any kind of debilitating effect on them, they can live on the surface and go about their business there without problems.
    We have several goblinoid characters stating that their eyesinght is worse in the daylight.

    But, again, you seem to know more about goblins than goblins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    I see. The fact (not open to debate) that with the limited resources at their disposal they built a city with tens of thousands of inhabitants, a keep and layered defenses.
    The fact is that the best they have built is far less than what other races have built.

    The "layered defenses" are just two pallisades. Not even a stone wall. They don't even build bridges, as Pangtok mentioned when they crossed the river over a log.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    the fact (not open to debate) that this city could train, equip (with armour, shields and weapons) an army of able-bodied none-too-old males that was almost three times larger than what a major Southern nation could muster; the fact (not open to debate) that this army fought with a ridiculous discipline drung the battle of Azure City somehow all prove that hobgoblins are way too primitive to organize themselves as well as other races. Interesting take.
    The fact is that after several months occuping Azure City they have been unable even to properly rebuild the hole they made in the city walls.

    Which is a clear indicator that the highest level of construction technology achieved by Hobgoblins is far less than the one achieved by other species.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    You misremember that one. Oona agreed with the notion that the other goblinid races do not care much about bugbears. Redcloak responded to that, ignoring the Monster.
    I don't need to remember when I provided a link, you know. "Specious pan-goblinoid narrative that probably arose to elide historical sectarian divisions between goblins and hobgoblins".

    Not to mention that Redcloak himself talked about a "long history" of hobgoblins bullying goblins, in the other link I provided.

    So, again, you know more about goblins than goblins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    The Gobbotopia Project is all about that (pan-goblinoid state building diplomatic ties). He just does not think that will do on its own.
    The Gobbotopia Project was all about invading the lands of other people, killing a lot of those people, and enslaving most of the rest.

    The Gobbotopia Project at the moment is all about living as master-race over the forced labour of tens of thousands of human slaves.

    But for some reason, Redcloak fears that the poor gobbotopians will be unfairly targeted as crusade bait.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2020-10-06 at 06:09 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #855
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    We have several goblinoid characters stating that their eyesinght is worse in the daylight.
    So? Like I said, that might very well be the case, but since they do not seem to be hampered by this in any way (they live above ground, they fight, hold ceremonies etc.), it is largely irrelevant (also, what's several? Three? Four?)
    But then, you might know better than the comic. The battle of Azure City, for instance, probably consisted of squinting hobgoblins desperately looking for the enemy and unable to find them, we just never noticed. Redcloak also has difficulty seeing, and therefore he has a terrible aim. The comic, however, shows otherwise to deceive the readers, because it's Evil.

    We have a character stating that him's is one of the largest goblioid settlement on the surface.
    Much like humans, goblinoids do not have a unified civilization or a single state. That assessment may or may not be correct. (Edit: cf. how Roy, a human, wasn't aware that the established Northern human nations of Somewhere, Nowhere, Anywhere and Someplcae Else exist, although he is a Northerner and was travelling through one of those nations at that time. How do you expect a random hobgoblin to be aware of all goblinoid settlements, as well as their size if Roy, who's not a stupid guy is not aware of the existence of four countries?)

    Which implies that his settlement is one of the pinnacles of goblin civilization. Unless there are far bigger goblin settlements underground, but those haven't been shown or mentioned. In any case, it implies also that enough goblins live underground to actually having to make the distinction between surface settlements and non-surface ones.
    The fact is that the best they have built is far less than what other races have built.

    The "layered defenses" are just two pallisades. Not even a stone wall. They don't even build bridges, as Pangtok mentioned when they crossed the river over a log.
    Look! A little village with pallisades and a log (as wide as a house, but still)! How incredibly primitive!
    Even Oona's tribe is living in houses built of stone, in case you did not notice.
    But then, you might know better than the comic. That city is not actually there, it's a lot smaller and does not have a bridge. And the bugbear houses are really crude tents made of fur or whatever. The comic, however, shows otherwise to deceive the readers, because it's Evil.

    The fact is that after several months occuping Azure City they have been unable even to properly rebuild the hole they made in the city walls.

    Which is a clear indicator that the highest level of construction technology achieved by Hobgoblins is far less than the one achieved by other species.
    See above.

    I don't need to remember when I provided a link, you know. "Specious pan-goblinoid narrative that probably arose to elide historical sectarian divisions between goblins and hobgoblins".
    Which is something the MOnster says. Oona and Redcloak are talking about bugbears, and Redcloak claims all goblinoids are equal.

    Not to mention that Redcloak himself talked about a "long history" of hobgoblins bullying goblins, in the other link I provided.

    So, again, you know more about goblins than goblins.
    Wow! Suddenly Redcloak is an absolute authority who knows everything and is always right! The thing is, we have seen numerous examples of goblin-hobgoblin cooperation and no example of goblin-hobgoblin conflict in the comic other than a prank in a cutaway panel. Not that Redcloak does not refer to the attitude he expresses there as a „childish grudge” at a later point.
    But then, you might know better than the comic. The comic, however, shows otherwise to deceive the readers, because it's Evil.


    The Gobbotopia Project was all about invading the lands of other people, killing a lot of those people, and enslaving most of the rest.

    The Gobbotopia Project at the moment is all about living as master-race over the forced labour of tens of thousands of human slaves.
    No. The Gobbotopia Project actually only started after the occupation is concluded, and they are actively trying to forge diplomatic and economic ties with other nations rather than aiming for continued warfare.
    Yes, their current slave-based economy is a problem, but it would seem that they are more than receptive to the idea of Cliffport influencing their position on human slavery through economic engagement.
    But then, you do know goblins better than goblins, so they are probably wrong about their own priorities.


    (A parenthetical remark: since 1) your position seems to be that the goblins are simply inferior to other races physically and culturally despite any evidence to the contrary and {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by jdizzlean; 2020-10-07 at 04:21 AM. Reason: clean up

  16. - Top - End - #856
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    So? Like I said, that might very well be the case, but since they do not seem to be hampered by this in any way
    I have provided you with an example in-comic of two hobgoblins being hampered by sunlight.

    You are simply denying facts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    (they live above ground, they fight, hold ceremonies etc.), it is largely irrelevant (also, what's several? Three? Four?)
    They can be one thousand and you would still deny the fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    But then, you might know better than the comic.
    The comic whose goblinoid characters say they are more confortably in the dark than in daylight, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Much like humans, goblinoids do not have a unified civilization or a single state. That assessment may or may not be correct.
    It's interesting how information provided in the comic stops being relevant or credible when it doesn't suits your position in a debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    I did not say that Hobgoblins are primitive, as in, troglodytes living in caves and using stone weapons. They cultural level, however, is manifestly lower than most other races, if we take their settlements as an example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Even Oona's tribe is living in houses built of stone, in case you did not notice.
    When did I say that they can't build stone houses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    But then, you might know better than the comic. That city is not actually there, it's a lot smaller and does not have a bridge. And the bugbear houses are really crude tents made of fur or whatever. The comic, however, shows otherwise to deceive the readers, because it's Evil.
    I don't now, we aren't given a closer look at the city.

    We did have a closer look in HTPGhS (a work that clearly you haven't read). And yep, they had wooden pallisades as defenses, and their main headquarters was crudely built-in the rock. Very far from what we have seen at Cliffport, or Azure City, or even Bleedingham, or Tinkertown, or Firmament. And yes, they used fallen logs at bridges.

    After more than a decade of peace with the humans, however, I suppose their material conditions have improved. Proof once again that the goblinoids can achieve a lot more living at peace than invading and enslaving their neighbours while pursuing Plans that involve attempting to blackmail the Gods at the risk of having the world destroyed and their souls unmade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Wow! Suddenly Redcloak is an absolute authority who knows everything and is always right!
    So, you believe Redcloak when he says that Goblins are discriminated, but the very moment he says something that doesn't suits your agenda, Redcloak stops being credible.

    Interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    The thing is, we have seen numerous examples of goblin-hobgoblin cooperation and no example of goblin-hobgoblin conflict in the comic other than a prank in a cutaway panel.
    You mean, other than Redcloak murdering who he believed to be the former Hobgoblin leader, then Redcloak murdering scores of hobgoblins because of why not.

    Redcloak's past with the Hobgoblins, and the remarks given by Oona and MitD, proves that the notion of a "unified goblinoid society" is just something new Redcloak just invented, not the state of affairs previous to his overtaking of leadership of the hobgoblins by sheer murderous brute force.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    No. The Gobbotopia Project actually only started after the occupation is concluded, and they are actively trying to forge diplomatic and economic ties with other nations rather than aiming for continued warfare.
    A project built over brutal conquest and sustained over a massive workforce of slaves.

    Tarquin would approve.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    That comic doesn't shows them receptive to the idea of changing their position on human slavery. The hobgoblins are showing awareness of the fact that they got Cliffport because they have a common enemy on the Elves, and despite the hobgoblins employing massive human slavery and enjoying it. At this point in the comic the hobgoblins are still holding to human slavery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    (A parenthetical remark: since 1) your position seems to be that the goblins are simply inferior to other races physically and culturally despite any evidence to the contrary {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by jdizzlean; 2020-10-07 at 04:22 AM. Reason: scrub the quote

  17. - Top - End - #857
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    One thing seemingly forgotten in this debate is that goblins and hobgoblins are different species with different cultures. We have seen hobgoblins organize large cities and armies and accept a powerful goblin cleric as their leader. That is all perfectly in line with their Monster Manual entry:
    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Manual 3.5
    Hobgoblins are larger cousins of goblins. They are far more aggressive and organized than their smaller relatives and wage a perpetual war with other humanoids, particularly elves...These creatures have a strong grasp of strategy and tactics and are capable of carrying out sophisticated battle plans. Under the leadership of a skilled strategist or tactician, their discipline can prove a deciding factor...Hobgoblins are a military breed: They live for war and believe strongly in strength and martial prowess as the most desirable qualities for individuals and leaders alike. A hobgoblin leader is likely to be the biggest and strongest in the group, maintaining authority by enforcing strict discipline. Hobgoblins are often leaders among tribes of goblins and orcs, whom they bully and treat as inferiors...
    Hobgoblins have a +1 level adjustment because they are bigger an meaner than goblins and have no negative traits. Regular goblins have a +0 level adjustment. Hobgoblin discipline and ability to organize is reflected in their alignment entry: Usually lawful evil (regular goblins are "usually neutral evil").

    Edit: Also, please forget I said anything about "vulnerability to sunlight". Silly me, its Orcs that have vulnerability to sunlight in 3.5. Goblins were vulnerable to sunlight in earlier editions but lost that limitation in 3rd edition.
    Last edited by Jason; 2020-10-06 at 08:54 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #858
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    I have provided you with an example in-comic of two hobgoblins being hampered by sunlight.

    You are simply denying facts. (…)
    They can be one thousand and you would still deny the fact.
    I gave you literally hundreds of examples of goblinoids not hampered by sunlight (versus your two on a gag panel). Who's denying facts here?

    It's interesting how information provided in the comic stops being relevant or credible when it doesn't suits your position in a debate.
    When and where does the comic state that hobgoblins are a unified, big, global culture under a single leadership? I'm curious.

    I did not say that Hobgoblins are primitive, as in, troglodytes living in caves and using stone weapons. They cultural level, however, is manifestly lower than most other races, if we take their settlements as an example.

    When did I say that they can't build stone houses?

    I don't now, we aren't given a closer look at the city.

    We did have a closer look in HTPGhS (a work that clearly you haven't read). And yep, they had wooden pallisades as defenses, and their main headquarters was crudely built-in the rock. Very far from what we have seen at Cliffport, or Azure City, or even Bleedingham, or Tinkertown, or Firmament. And yes, they used fallen logs at bridges.
    You said they are two primitive to build proper walls because they did not restore the breach as it was.
    I don't know about the settlement in Good Deeds, but the city shown in the main comic does not show „a manifestly lower cultural level” than any other settlement we've seen in the comic. Team Evil is impressed by its sheer size and level of sophistication.
    And yes, you said the hobgoblins are not capable of building bridges, and yet the city has a huge one. Sorry.

    After more than a decade of peace with the humans, however, I suppose their material conditions have improved. Proof once again that the goblinoids can achieve a lot more living at peace than invading and enslaving their neighbours while pursuing Plans that involve attempting to blackmail the Gods at the risk of having the world destroyed and their souls unmade.
    Peace is a cool thing for sure. However it evidently did not solve their issues with limited resources and lack of international recognition.

    So, you believe Redcloak when he says that Goblins are discriminated, but the very moment he says something that doesn't suits your agenda, Redcloak stops being credible.
    You are the one who keeps saying Redcloak is obviously wrong, and a lying hypocrite with a clouded judgement. However, now suddenly you take his word for something he later admits probably wasn't even true (see the link with „a childish grudge”).
    Also: „cf. how Roy, a human, wasn't aware that the established Northern human nations of Somewhere, Nowhere, Anywhere and Someplcae Else exist, although he is a Northerner and was travelling through one of those nations at that time. How do you expect a random hobgoblin to be aware of all goblinoid settlements, as well as their size if Roy, who's not a stupid guy is not aware of the existence of four countries?)”, as well as how Redcloak actively spreads propaganda about Gobbotopia (which indicates that the whole thing with „the largest settlement etc.” might be propaganda as well).

    You mean, other than Redcloak murdering who he believed to be the former Hobgoblin leader, then Redcloak murdering scores of hobgoblins because of why not.
    Redcloak was personally a racist because of a „childish grudge” against hobgoblins. The hobgoblins never showed open hostility towards him.

    Redcloak's past with the Hobgoblins, and the remarks given by Oona and MitD, proves that the notion of a "unified goblinoid society" is just something new Redcloak just invented, not the state of affairs previous to his overtaking of leadership of the hobgoblins by sheer murderous brute force.
    The strip explicitly calls out the MOnster's comment as trolling, while Oona only talks about bugbears.

    A project built over brutal conquest and sustained over a massive workforce of slaves.

    Tarquin would approve.
    Probably, yes. And that must indeed change.

    That comic doesn't shows them receptive to the idea of changing their position on human slavery. The hobgoblins are showing awareness of the fact that they got Cliffport because they have a common enemy on the Elves, and despite the hobgoblins employing massive human slavery and enjoying it. At this point in the comic the hobgoblins are still holding to human slavery.
    The comic shows two officials discussing how a new ally who'd change their position on human slavery is a good thing for them. This means they are aware that acquiring human allies and trading partners might take a change of attitude, and are happy to seek human allies and trading partners nonetheless.

    You never got moderated because of me. The resposibility for your issues with the moderation team is on you, not on me.
    I have no issues with the moderators. They are doing their job, and doing it well.{Scrubbed}
    Last edited by jdizzlean; 2020-10-07 at 04:24 AM. Reason: clean up

  19. - Top - End - #859
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    The strip explicitly calls out the MOnster's comment as trolling, while Oona only talks about bugbears.
    No it doesnt? The only commentary on it made "by the strip" is the demon roach poking fun at the people invested in the MITD guessing game.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  20. - Top - End - #860
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    I gave you literally hundreds of examples of goblinoids not hampered by sunlight (versus your two on a gag panel). Who's denying facts here?
    Again, goblins say in comic they see worse at dayling. That's a fact.

    That goblins are shown operating at daylight doesn't denys that statement. Humans are hampered by lack of light and they are shown operating at night or in underground dungeons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    When and where does the comic state that hobgoblins are a unified, big, global culture under a single leadership? I'm curious.
    That's not relevant to the fact that the comic states that the Hobgoblin city is one of the largest goblinoid settlements on the surface.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    You said they are two primitive to build proper walls because they did not restore the breach as it was.
    Yep. The shoddy work they did there, in contrast with azurite masonry, is a testament on the fact that the technological level of hobgoblins is far from the sophistication of azurite culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    I don't know about the settlement in Good Deeds
    {Scrubbed}

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Peace is a cool thing for sure. Howeverit evidently did not solve their issues with limited resources and lack of international recognition.
    If you read HTPGhS and compare the hobgoblin settlement seen there with the one seen in #197, you'll notice that they advanced a lot after a decade of peace. The main building of their city seems to be an actual building, instead of a dwelling crudely built in the rock. Those walls might be of stone instead of wood. And they even build bridges now!

    A leader focused on peace and working with what the goblinoids have, seems to solve their issues, indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    You are the one who keeps saying Redcloak is obviously wrong, and a lying hypocrite with a clouded judgement. However, now suddenly you take his word for something he later admits probably wasn't even true (see the link with „a childish grudge”).
    Redcloak may be wrong or may be right, but that's irrelevant to the fact that those sectarian divisions do exist, as evidenced by the actitude Redcloak had towards Hobgoblins when he meet them, or by Oona's and MitD's remarks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Also: „cf. how Roy, a human, wasn't aware that the established Northern human nations of Somewhere, Nowhere, Anywhere and Someplcae Else exist, although he is a Northerner and was travelling through one of those nations at that time. How do you expect a random hobgoblin to be aware of all goblinoid settlements, as well as their size if Roy, who's not a stupid guy is not aware of the existence of four countries?)”, as well as how Redcloak actively spreads propaganda about Gobbotopia (which indicates that the whole thing with „the largest settlement etc.” might be propaganda as well).
    That Roy was unaware of the existence of those four countries, is indicative that they do not contain any of the largest cities in the world. Roy was not unaware of the existence of Azure City, or Cliffport, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    The strip explicitly calls out the MOnster's comment as trolling, while Oona only talks about bugbears.
    The strip calls his comment as "trenchant", not as trolling. In my book, that expression means MitD hit the spot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Probably, yes. And that must indeed change.
    With the Hobgoblins stopping the occupation and going back to their hills, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    The comic shows two officials discussing how a new ally who'd change their position on human slavery is a good thing for them. This means they are aware that human allies and trading partners might take a change of attitude, and are happy to seek human allies and trading partners nonetheless.
    The comic shows two officials discussing how they got recognized by an human nation who objected on their slavery because they have a common enemy. In no way that shows that the Hobgoblins are happy to see their position on slavery influenced.

    You know, if you see anything wrong with slavery, you don't need to be "influenced" by anyone to stop doing it. The fact that the hobgoblins continue to use slavery means they are perfecly happy with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    I have no issues with the moderators. They are doing their job, and doing it well. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}.
    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by jdizzlean; 2020-10-07 at 04:27 AM. Reason: clean up

  21. - Top - End - #861
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    No it doesnt? The only commentary on it made "by the strip" is the demon roach poking fun at the people invested in the MITD guessing game.
    Trolls are monsters, and trolls (the other kind) use „trenchant political analysis” to attack others.

  22. - Top - End - #862
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

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