Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

[dancrilis]

There has been a number of discussion on Goblin Oppression within the comic and these tend to go down a number of pathways as I see it.

Firstly to define what I mean by Goblin Oppression (hopefully everyone can agree the defination is fair enough at any rate):
Goblin Oppression: Where goblins are the victims of consistent unjust or cruel exercises of authority or power.

1. Goblins are oppressed and are so based on the fact that the gods created them to fit this role.
2. Goblins are oppressed and are so based on the fact that the humans and other races oppress them without the gods punishing such behaviour.
3. Goblins are oppressed because as a society they choose to engage in evil and this resulted in other not being willing to associate with them and so they didn't benefit from trade etc.
4. Goblins are not oppressed.
5. While goblins are oppressed by others much of this oppression is a result of the actions of The Dark One.
6. Goblins are oppressors which means they stronger ones oppress the weaker ones.
7. Other.

I think the first 6 cover most opinions (with 5 being my personal take).

Option 1 is supported seemingly by the crayon drawings in SOD - however there are indications that these may not be accurate.
Option 2 is supported by the actions of a small group within SOD - but there is little to indicate that others engage in this, it is also supported partially by the action of the OOTS in DCF but that may not be valid due to much of it being before a long term narrative was considered.
Option 3 is not really strongly supported in my view, and undermined by the fact that in Gobbotopia they do have relations with other evil humanoids (and others), however there behaviour within Gobbotopia would act as a problem for relations with more neutral and good aligned peoples.
Option 4 is somewhat supported by the online comic where we don't really see much oppression of goblins by others, although SOD and to a lesser extent HTPGHS offer much more in the way of opposition to it (although by a small select group).
Option 5 is supported by the fact that the oppression in SOD and HTPGHS is a direct result of The Dark One's machinations - however this does not account for how the goblins got to the position there were in prior to his appearance, which has been indicated on the forum as them not worshipping any gods.
Option 6 is supported by the comic where we see Redcloak sieze control of a hobgoblin settlement by might of arms, or in SOD where similiar might grants authority is practiced at times.
Option 7 unsupported by the nature of being a catch all option.

Just wondering if I missed any obvious option and where people might stand on these options.

[understatement]

What I'm surprised at is that you hadn't brought this thread up sooner.

ETA: Since the word 'oppression' seems to be used a lot here, I'd like to point that it only takes one group - in a superior position of power - systemically crusading against another to qualify.

[Jason]

I would say that there is very little goblin oppression evident in the online strips, and lots of scenes of goblins and goblinoids oppressing others, but that might be the nature of the story being told, where the goblins shown are mostly in the service, willingly or no, of Xykon.

There are more people actively hating goblins in the books, but there are also more goblins willing to take a more tolerant attitude towards the other races. We see goblin families attending a circus with human families without any friction between the two races, for instance.

[Ionathus]

There has been a number of discussion on Goblin Oppression within the comic and these tend to go down a number of pathways as I see it.

[snip]

I'm gonna go with Options #1 and #2, because:

1. These are the scenarios depicted & explained in the comic.
2. At no point do any characters offer counterpoints or evidence that these are not the case -- sure they justify their actions, but they don't dispute the facts.
3. Rich himself has stated outright that goblinoids and other "monstrous" humanoids are often attacked on sight (see the orcs in Roy & Durkon's first adventuring party).
4. Rich himself has stated that he's deliberately pointing at this exact situation while he tells the story of Redcloak (See Worldsong's signature for more on that, once they inevitably sniff out this thread).
5. I can't name a single instance of any PC Race character expressing sympathy for the goblins' plight within the main comic.
6. The Sapphire Guard's actions in SOD & HtPGHS -- not just that they killed goblinoids indiscriminately, but that nobody seems to care, or only cares from a tactical standpoint.

Your statement that this is all the "fault" of The Dark One's actions would ring a lot truer if it weren't for Redcloak's first scene in SoD.

Spoiler: SoD spoilers

Show

Unless you're saying those goblin children deserved to die because their priest was wearing the MacGuffin...in which case, we will never see eye to eye on this.

[knag]

Are Goblins (and orcs, ogres, xvarts, gnolls (including flinds), trolls, lycanthropes, minotaurs, orogs, medusas, sligs, grimlocks, lamias, hill giants, ettins, yakfolk, ettercaps, half-orcs, and others) all oppressed?

Surely the reality is that some are oppressed and some are not. Just as some humans (particularly in the Western Continent) are oppressed. Dwarves are deeply oppressed by Loki's bet.

I think the question is not nuanced enough.

[Worldsong]

I think the reason we don't see much discrimination against goblinoids in the comic itself is because the comic focuses on the goblinoids fighting back (primarily Redcloak). Or in other words the consequences of years of discrimination, that is a member of the discriminated group goes ballistic and resorts to extreme measures to put a stop to it.

That goblinoids get treated as fair game for adventurers and Good-aligned people to kill is mostly established by the fact that the story is a parody of DnD 3.5e and criticism on the way that Rich saw people play the game, and apparently Rich saw a lot of people play like murderhobos who had zero objections to striking down members of monster races.

[Jason]

I can't name a single instance of any PC Race character expressing sympathy for the goblins' plight within the main comic.

That again might be the nature of the story being told. The goblins have been an active threat throughout the storyline.

Durkon was expressing sympathy before Red Cloak tried to murder him.

[Ionathus]

That again might be the nature of the story being told. The goblins have been an active threat throughout the storyline.

Durkon was expressing sympathy before Red Cloak tried to murder him.

Sorry, I should've clarified "before this Redcloak/Durkon negotiation." Didn't mean to be moving the goalposts like that, but here we are.

[Jason]

Sorry, I should've clarified "before this Redcloak/Durkon negotiation." Didn't mean to be moving the goalposts like that, but here we are.

If memory serves, that's also the first time any goblin has brought up the subject with a member of a PC race, isn't it?

[understatement]

If memory serves, that's also the first time any goblin has brought up the subject with a member of a PC race, isn't it?

Not really; the Dark One did bring it up back when he was mortal. Or tried to, at least.

[Jason]

Not really; the Dark One did bring it up back when he was mortal. Or tried to, at least.

That wasn't in the main comic.

[pendell]

If I have to be pinned down to one answer, I'll choose #1: the goblins are oppressed because they have been specifically created for the role by the gods, and very few adventurers are willing to question this state of affairs.

Be that as it may, I think two other points in here have partial value:
A) I concur that the oppression from the gods is bad enough, but TDO is making things worse. I also don't see the path he is following as one that is likely to make things better. As others have pointed out, Redcloak has killed more goblinoids than any random band of adventurers, and is on course to put their entire existence as a species on the table.

B) As seen in Azure City, goblins are not saints. They are just as capable as the other species of oppression when they are the ones on top. Be that as it may, their own evil actions do not justify their continued oppression. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Not really; the Dark One did bring it up back when he was mortal. Or tried to, at least.

So he tells us. That's crayon. There may be more to the story than just a {scrubbed} being butchered without cause and in cold blood by treacherous humans. That portion of the story, more than any other, has the stench of propaganda about it to me.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

Thor, at least, claims The Dark One had killed many Thor-worshippers, as a mortal.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html

[Jason]

There may be more to the story than just a {scrub the post, scrub the quote} being butchered without cause and in cold blood by treacherous humans. That portion of the story, more than any other, has the stench of propaganda about it to me.

{scrubbed}

Even in the Dark One's own propaganda he was a military leader as well as a moral crusader for goblinoid rights.

[understatement]

So he tells us. That's crayon. There may be more to the story than just a {scrub the post, scrub the quote} being butchered without cause and in cold blood by treacherous humans. That portion of the story, more than any other, has the stench of propaganda about it to me.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

I don't disagree, but that was the only example I could think of off the top of my head of a goblin speaking to a PC race. Every other interaction (besides the recent strips) has been during conflict.

[hungrycrow]

Are Goblins (and orcs, ogres, xvarts, gnolls (including flinds), trolls, lycanthropes, minotaurs, orogs, medusas, sligs, grimlocks, lamias, hill giants, ettins, yakfolk, ettercaps, half-orcs, and others) all oppressed?

Surely the reality is that some are oppressed and some are not. Just as some humans (particularly in the Western Continent) are oppressed. Dwarves are deeply oppressed by Loki's bet.

I think the question is not nuanced enough.

All of these races suffer under the 'kill on sight' mentality adventurers seem to run on.

I do think it complicates things that a lot of members of these races also attack innocent members of PC races. Should we call it oppression if both sides are committing the same atrocities?

[Worldsong]

All of these races suffer under the 'kill on sight' mentality adventurers seem to run on.

I do think it complicates things that a lot of members of these races also attack innocent members of PC races. Should we call it oppression if both sides are committing the same atrocities?

Most of those races have the advantage that they're individually strong enough that it requires some work to kill them. I think goblins (and goblinoids in general) have it worse because they're individually small and weak.

[dancrilis]

Your statement that this is all the "fault" of The Dark One's actions would ring a lot truer if it weren't for Redcloak's first scene in SoD.

Spoiler: SoD spoilers

Show

Unless you're saying those goblin children deserved to die because their priest was wearing the MacGuffin...in which case, we will never see eye to eye on this.

Consider it this way - I have a plan to create a device to enslave the minds of all people (or possibly kill them you are unsure), but you can't reach me to stop me you can only reach those who are building it for me - so you drop a bomb on the village, and then when you get word that others are continuing the plan for me you drop another bomb, and another, and another ... you drop a lot of bombs.

You are content to wipe out all my people to stop me - but again you can't reach me - at some point you are going to be legitimately regarded as an oppressor of my people and when one of them wipes you out not many will think it is unfair to you.

But I am still the cause of the oppression in the first place (your actions began to combat my plans rather then from nowhere) - you may be in the wrong to slaughter my people in that manner, but it is my actions that triggered your oppression of my people.

Bare in mind I said:

5. While goblins are oppressed by others much of this oppression is a result of the actions of The Dark One.

This acknowledges that they are oppressed (at least to an extent).

I don't disagree, but that was the only example I could think of off the top of my head of a goblin speaking to a PC race. Every other interaction (besides the recent strips) has been during conflict.

Not the main comic but:

Spoiler: SOD

Show

1. Right-Eye speaks to Eugene when Eugene sets him on the course for a better life (not really about goblin oppression but still a civilised conversation where Eugene didn't attack him even when Right-Eye pulled a weapon on him - so Eugene at least seems to regard goblins as people, even if he regards them as evil people and doesn't really care about them).

2. Right-Eye and Redcloak specifically talk to Xykon about goblin oppression and he does not disagree.

In the main comic Redcloak talks to Tsukiko about the plan and she does not fault him on his reasoning (and then he kills her).

[Jason]

In the main comic Redcloak talks to Tsukiko about the plan and she does not fault him on his reasoning (and then he kills her).

Tsukiko is much more concerned with the reveal that the Plan isn't what Xykon thinks it is rather than disputing whether or not goblins really have gotten a raw deal.

[Keltest]

Most of those races have the advantage that they're individually strong enough that it requires some work to kill them. I think goblins (and goblinoids in general) have it worse because they're individually small and weak.

In 3.5, a normal human commoner is infamously less likely to win a combat than a typical housecat. As a species, humanity has no particular advantage in that department.

[Doug Lampert]

I don't disagree, but that was the only example I could think of off the top of my head of a goblin speaking to a PC race. Every other interaction (besides the recent strips) has been during conflict.

Start of Darkness has goblins able to attend the circus alongside humans with no trouble at all, and they all are allowed to, and do, speak.

They don't discuss goblin oppression, but there's no sign that they couldn't if they thought goblins being oppressed was an active problem.

Of course there is a conflict and those goblins are oppressed: When RC shows up and kills some humans while robbing the circus there is conflict, and then the goblins are all enslaved (by X and RC) and forced to work and fight (for RC and X) prior to RC murdering spoiler for daring to try to fix this situation. Then later of course RC has the brilliant epiphany that MAYBE deliberately getting hobgoblins killed for the horrid crime of having orange skin and fangs is wrong after he's ONLY arranged for 10,000+ to be killed. But you can't make an omelette without ruthlessly crushing some eggs beneath your feet utterly destroying your brother's peaceful village which is successfully doing what you claim is impossible.

So yeah, goblins and goblinoids are oppressed quite often in the comic. If you want to eliminate the worst single oppressor shown, RC can see him by getting a mirror.

It would also be nice if someone stopped low level adventurers from killing goblins without worrying about finding actual evidence of an actual crime. But that doesn't seem to be nearly as imminent a threat to goblinkind as RC and his "plan" which is likely to destroy the souls of every living goblin if it "works".

[hamishspence]

In 3.5, a normal human commoner is infamously less likely to win a combat than a typical housecat. As a species, humanity has no particular advantage in that department.

Commoners are an unusually fragile NPC class. Better to compare the basic human statblock with the basic goblin statblock.

https://www.d20srd.org/index.htm

Human:

Medium: As Medium creatures, humans have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Human base land speed is 30 feet.
1 extra feat at 1st level.
4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.
Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Speak Language skill.
Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass human takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does not count.

Goblin:

-2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma.
Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ¾ those of Medium characters.
A goblin’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
+4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks.
Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
Favored Class: Rogue.

Goblins are massively worse at anything Str based or Charisma based and better only at being sneaky rogues. Humans are all-rounders - half-decent at everything. And that feat and that skill bonus makes a huge difference.

There's a reason why goblin warriors are CR 1/3 whereas "PC races" are CR 1/2 as warriors.

[understatement]

SOD spoilers ahead.

Consider it this way -

Considering this is a hypothetical situation, this isn't even comparable in any way.

I have a plan to create a device to enslave the minds of all people (or possibly kill them you are unsure), but you can't reach me to stop me you can only reach those who are building it for me - so you drop a bomb on the village, and then when you get word that others are continuing the plan for me you drop another bomb, and another, and another ... you drop a lot of bombs.

The Cloak ( or its Bearer) is not a bomb. It doesn't actively threaten lives in an immediate radius. The only time it becomes a threat is if the Bearer is near the rift.

You are content to wipe out all my people to stop me - but again you can't reach me - at some point you are going to be legitimately regarded as an oppressor of my people and when one of them wipes you out not many will think it is unfair to you.

This is D&D. There is absolutely a way to "get" to the Bearer without wiping out the village. And once the Bearer is dead, there is absolutely no reason for the paladins to continue what they did.

But I am still the cause of the oppression in the first place (your actions began to combat my plans rather then from nowhere) - you may be in the wrong to slaughter my people in that manner, but it is my actions that triggered your oppression of my people.

So...the Bearer forced the Sapphire Guard to attack fleeing villagers, before and after he was dead.

Doesn't sound right.

They don't discuss goblin oppression, but there's no sign that they couldn't if they thought goblins being oppressed was an active problem.

Yeah, okay. I'd like to revise my statement that besides Durkon - Redcloak and the TDO example, I don't think there's been seen a "formal negotation" of sorts.

[hamishspence]

I'd say a big part of it, is The Giant attacking the attitude of the average player (and maybe even the average DM) to the average monster.


In that context, the "goblinoid oppression by PC races is real" hypothesis makes the most sense to me as being True. As such, for me, 1. and 2. seem by far the most likely.

DMs stand for "the gods" and "PC races" stand for "the players".

[hungrycrow]

Commoners are an unusually fragile NPC class. Better to compare the basic human statblock with the basic goblin statblock.

https://www.d20srd.org/index.htm

Human:

Medium: As Medium creatures, humans have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Human base land speed is 30 feet.
1 extra feat at 1st level.
4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.
Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Speak Language skill.
Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass human takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does not count.

Goblin:

-2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma.
Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ¾ those of Medium characters.
A goblin’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
+4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks.
Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
Favored Class: Rogue.

Goblins are massively worse at anything Str based or Charisma based and better only at being sneaky rogues. Humans are all-rounders - half-decent at everything. And that feat and that skill bonus makes a huge difference.

There's a reason why goblin warriors are CR 1/3 whereas "PC races" are CR 1/2 as warriors.

Goblins are Medium sized in comic though.

[Jason]

I'd say a big part of it, is The Giant attacking the attitude of the average player (and maybe even the average DM) to the average monster.

I think I would disagree that the average player of D&D has no qualms cutting up goblin kids they find in a lair after killing off all the warriors who were actively trying to kill their characters. It's more like the rare player of D&D who gives the others a bad name when he acts in that way. And this has always been true, even in 1st edition AD&D days. You can find regular debates in early issues of Dragon.

[hamishspence]

Goblins are Medium sized in comic though.

Which means they lose all those size-related bonuses, and gain ... extra carrying capacity, and better at grappling.

[Jason]

Which means they lose all those size-related bonuses, and gain ... extra carrying capacity, and better at grappling.

They might lose the -2 Strength penalty as well.

[hamishspence]

They might lose the -2 Strength penalty as well.

It's possible. IMO not likely in this context..

I think I would disagree that the average player of D&D has no qualms cutting up goblin kids they find in a lair after killing off all the warriors who were actively trying to kill their characters. It's more like the rare player of D&D who gives the others a bad name when he acts in that way. And this has always been true, even in 1st edition AD&D days. You can find regular debates in early issues of Dragon.

Given that Gygax sided with the kid-killers in fairly recent years, kind of, suggesting it was permissible for LG, and CN and LN:

https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/v...08d69&start=90

The non-combatants in a humanoid group might be judged as worthy of death by a LG opponent force and executed or taken as prisoners to be converted to the correct way of thinking and behaving. A NG opponent would likely admonish them to change their ways before freeing them. A CG force might enslave them so as to correct their ways or else do as the NG party did. CN and LN opponents would likely slaughter the lot.

it would be interesting to see what he said back then.

[Yuki Akuma]

...Okay, Chaotic Good characters enslaving evil characters sounds so hilariously out of character for Chaotic Good that I have to come to the conclusion that Gygax had nothing to do with the shift from a single-axis Lawful-Chaos alignment to a two-axis Lawful-Chaos/Good-Evil alignment grid.