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  1. - Top - End - #511
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Jul 2018

    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazero View Post
    You can do that just fine if they're bandits/soldiers/whatever who attack you on sight first.
    Yeah but attack on sight implies you're the one attacking them on sight.

  2. - Top - End - #512
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Wildstag's Avatar

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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    I feel like Rich's stance was clear on the treatment & portrayal of monstrous humanoids ever since he had Belkar quip about it in comic 13. I only read the print-only books years later, and I felt like they re-affirmed and expanded my already-held opinions about the goblin subplot, rather than creating them from scratch.
    Taking a comment made in the double-digits before an overarching plot was even set up (it's literally just describing a "go kill big bad" plot and that's it); especially a comment made by the only explicitly Evil character in the party and that is immediately frowned upon by literally every Good character in the party as a world-wide viewpoint?

    It seems to me just writing out that full explanation counters your point by sharing it. If the argument relies solely on Belkar being the voice of the overall population, or at least a significant enough one that people take HIM seriously? You're reaching.

    Half the point of Belkar is that literally everyone that interacts with him despises him and his murderhobo behavior. In fact, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone else that is as much of a murderhobo as he is out of the tens (what, almost a hundred now?) named characters aside from Xykon. Maybe Thog?

    Acting like his behavior is at all representative of the overall population in the world as we see it is a stretch of the imagination, especially when the majority of Good and Neutral characters have been shown to be opposed to that mindset.

    Merriam-Webster refers to oppression as "unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power". On a mortal level, we haven't really seen oppression (at least in the online-only, but again, if it matters that much, put it online and make it free), because the goblins have been under their own authority and power. At most, it's xenophobia or racism resulting in a crusade/war, rather than "oppression".

    You could reasonably argue that the Deities are oppressing them, if it were not shown that the crayon-art is even more an unreliable narrator than the characters in the comic are. We don't have a Deity that explicitly cared about the Goblins, however we don't have objective evidence (that I can recall, and that isn't crayon) that they were created to be sources of experience for PCs.

    Elves were also unsponsored and just created to fill a trope niche, so why don't we assume they too were created to be fodder for growing adventurers? Again, because Rich assumes that generally people have a certain perspective based on his own experiences playing the game. I think that speaks to a level of cynicism and shallow understanding of humanity as a whole.


    As for Lord Raziere, see my point about people with agendas. Every interpretation written up by a person is going to have inherent biases, especially highlighted by statements like "Themes I Have Observed". Anyone else is going to observe things differently.

  3. - Top - End - #513
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    An interesting thought: Belkar is supposed to be a parody of a type of problem player, and the fact that he's so popular while Miko, a parody of a different sort of problem player was distinctly not popular might indicate that there are far more Mikos than Belkars out there; far more self-righteous paladins than murder hobos.

  4. - Top - End - #514
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildstag View Post
    Taking a comment made in the double-digits before an overarching plot was even set up (it's literally just describing a "go kill big bad" plot and that's it); especially a comment made by the only explicitly Evil character in the party and that is immediately frowned upon by literally every Good character in the party as a world-wide viewpoint?

    It seems to me just writing out that full explanation counters your point by sharing it. If the argument relies solely on Belkar being the voice of the overall population, or at least a significant enough one that people take HIM seriously? You're reaching.

    Half the point of Belkar is that literally everyone that interacts with him despises him and his murderhobo behavior. In fact, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone else that is as much of a murderhobo as he is out of the tens (what, almost a hundred now?) named characters aside from Xykon. Maybe Thog?

    Acting like his behavior is at all representative of the overall population in the world as we see it is a stretch of the imagination, especially when the majority of Good and Neutral characters have been shown to be opposed to that mindset.
    I apologize if I miscommunicated. I wasn't saying "Belkar's statement in comic #13 is the bedrock of the Goblin Oppression narrative." I don't see Belkar as a good spokesperson at all, and I certainly don't see him as any sort of "voice of the people."

    I was simply pointing out that Rich as a writer was already poking fun at this mentality from the very beginning, so it didn't surprise me much when the topic continued to resurface in later strips.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    An interesting thought: Belkar is supposed to be a parody of a type of problem player, and the fact that he's so popular while Miko, a parody of a different sort of problem player was distinctly not popular might indicate that there are far more Mikos than Belkars out there; far more self-righteous paladins than murder hobos.
    The holier-than-thou bit might play a big part in that divide: characters who act smug, superior, or dismissive are often more hated by fans (sometimes in a love-to-hate way) than characters who just do "bad stuff" but are pretty open and blunt about it. Personally, I doubt that it has much to do with readers "seeing themselves" in Miko vs Belkar, and more to do with how annoying it is to read a smug antagonist.

    But then, I don't believe there are truly all that many murderhobos or self-righteous paladins in the playerbase either. I agree with the people who've depicted it as a very loud, annoying minority.
    Last edited by Ionathus; Today at 02:39 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #515
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    I submit that the difference in popularity is purely down to how the story is written. Belkar is a protagonist and accordingly given jokes, POV time, awesome moments, a pseudo-redemption arc, the eventual grudging respect of the other protagonists, etc. Miko is always the killjoy antagonist, even when the other people in the room are literally Redcloak and Xykon. She is both unrelentingly strait-laced and the least self-aware character in a parody comic, hence always the unsympathetic butt of the satire. That has nothing to do with the frequency of killjoy paladins vs. lazy murderhobos around the table.
    Last edited by Lethologica; Today at 02:44 PM.

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