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  1. - Top - End - #601
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Are you a non-native english speaker by chance? Because i assure you, "I hate X" statements are almost never made literally in America. It almost invariably means some flavor of "Wow this is annoying."
    Exactly. Roy doesn't really hate much. He is often annoyed, and says the equivalent of "I hate dealing with this sort of situation." That's not the same as saying "I don't think NPC races with class levels should have a moral right to exist."

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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Well, you were the one who said that fighting (and killing) „monsters” was his thing (v. #579), and this is why he hates them.
    I do apologize, i wasnt as clear as i should have been. Roy "hates monsters with class levels" because its something that annoys him that he can reasonably understand to not be a unique case. Its a thing that he knows can happen and that he has a reasonable chance of encountering that he would rather not. I compared that to trees with class levels earlier which, for all i know, could also be a thing the dwarves could frequently encounter, which Durkon presumably hates in the same way. Its not that theyre outraged by the very idea, its that those specific circumstances (monsters, which they fight, and class levels, which make fights harder) combine to make something that aggravates them.

    Compare this to the one elf commander, who apparently does legitimately hate goblinoids on principle for reasons not disclosed.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  3. - Top - End - #603
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Roy saying that he hates monsters with class levels in reference to a goblin could definitely be seen as a racist remark, but it's not nearly as problematic as what Roy was doing a few panels earlier in that same page: murdering goblins via decapitation in their sleep! I think the Giant has commented that the treatment of Roy's characterization, goblins, and their rights as sentient creatures have evolved enormously since then, so if we can disregard Roy's Coup de Grace-ing of helpless goblins as no longer relevant to his morality, we can also dismiss a single remark he made slightly later on the page.
    Last edited by Marsala; 2020-09-27 at 04:15 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #604
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marsala View Post
    Roy saying that he hates monsters with class levels in reference to a goblin could definitely be seen as a racist remark, but it's not nearly as problematic as what Roy was doing a few panels earlier in that same page: murdering goblins via decapitation in their sleep! I think the Giant has commented that the treatment of Roy's characterization, goblins, and their rights as sentient creatures have evolved enormously since then, so if we can disregard Roy's Coup de Grace-ing of helpless goblins as no longer relevant to his morality, we can also dismiss a single remark he made slightly later on the page.
    Those were warrior goblins on the watch for Adventurers before Vaarsuvius bored them to sleep, not innocent non-combatants who would have left the Order alone if they had left the goblins alone. Roy wasn't just killing them because they're goblins and he hates goblins.
    Last edited by Jason; 2020-09-27 at 05:34 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #605
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Those were warrior goblins on the watch for Adventurers before Vaarsuvius bored them to sleep, not innocent non-combatants who would have left the Order alone if they had left the goblins alone. Roy wasn't just killing them because they're goblins and he hates goblins.
    Those are guards standing between Roy and his Blood Oath, not participants in a war (or crusade, for that matter) where terms like "combatants" and "non-combatants" get slung around. They are also helpless, which has some impact on how the laws of war would treat them, if they applied in the first place, which they don't.

    As for a racial angle, two questions come to mind:
    1. Would Roy have hesitated to behead the guards if they had been human?
    2. Would Rich have hesitated to write Roy beheading the guards if they had been human?

    Based on Rich's comment in the intro to Blood Runs in the Family that Roy's actions here are an example of the first-volume characterizations being 'barely recognizable', we can hazard a guess about the answer to the second question.

  6. - Top - End - #606
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Those are guards standing between Roy and his Blood Oath, not participants in a war (or crusade, for that matter) where terms like "combatants" and "non-combatants" get slung around. They are also helpless, which has some impact on how the laws of war would treat them, if they applied in the first place, which they don't.

    As for a racial angle, two questions come to mind:
    1. Would Roy have hesitated to behead the guards if they had been human?
    2. Would Rich have hesitated to write Roy beheading the guards if they had been human?

    Based on Rich's comment in the intro to Blood Runs in the Family that Roy's actions here are an example of the first-volume characterizations being 'barely recognizable', we can hazard a guess about the answer to the second question.
    I'm not sure where independent adventurers fighting an evil lich's personal army would fall in real world ethics. If Roy hadn't done that though, the goblins would have just gotten up a few rounds later to help murder the group, and there wasn't a surefire nonlethal way for Roy to deal with that.

    In the interest of fairness though, the Order refrain from killing the human bandits despite their lives also being at risk at the time. So you're right that Rich wouldn't have shown Roy beheading sleeping human guards.

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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    They didn't attack the kids, though, which is arguably more kindness than any PC race member has shown to a goblinoid - besides O-Chul and Hinjo, I think - in the entire comic.
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    In the interest of fairness though, the Order refrain from killing the human bandits despite their lives also being at risk at the time. So you're right that Rich wouldn't have shown Roy beheading sleeping human guards.
    He didn't behead the human bandits because he didnt have a sword at the time, but he did crack a bunch of skulls with a great club, often from behind and without warning. This was also the story arc where he initially refused to rescue Elan from the same bandits.

    Edit: Immediatly after the bandit storyline is the parking corral run by an orc or half orc, and the Order doesn't comment on his race at all - not even Belkar. They don't treat him very well, but he's kind of a jerk to them too, and it doesn't seem to have anything to do with his race.
    Last edited by Jason; 2020-09-27 at 10:13 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #609
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I do apologize, i wasnt as clear as i should have been. Roy "hates monsters with class levels" because its something that annoys him that he can reasonably understand to not be a unique case. Its a thing that he knows can happen and that he has a reasonable chance of encountering that he would rather not. I compared that to trees with class levels earlier which, for all i know, could also be a thing the dwarves could frequently encounter, which Durkon presumably hates in the same way. Its not that theyre outraged by the very idea, its that those specific circumstances (monsters, which they fight, and class levels, which make fights harder) combine to make something that aggravates them.

    Compare this to the one elf commander, who apparently does legitimately hate goblinoids on principle for reasons not disclosed.
    Trees with class levels? I love the idea (I like plants!), but is that even a thing (let alone commonplace and frequently encountered)? If I'm not mistaken, even treants advance through additional HD rather than class levels. Anyhow, that's not the best analogy, since Durkon's (and the dwarves') hatred of trees is consistently shown to be irrational and completely one-sided.

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    They didn't attack the kids, though, which is arguably more kindness than any PC race member has shown to a goblinoid - besides O-Chul and Hinjo, I think - in the entire comic.
    Roy is visibly surprised, however, that Good aligned goblins exist, and then Haley explains it's just a passing phase in their lives, where they arbitrarily reject the goblins' traditional belief system.
    Also, there's that later thing where they blow up the entire dungeon, likely killing these helpful Good aligned teenagers without even acknowledging the possibility (it would appear that by that point they have completely forgotten the little guys were there). There are reasons why I said we should probably ignore the whole first book (see also Lethologica's post above; in DCF much everyone is a lot more petty, cruel (barring Elan) and stupid than they are in later books).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    He didn't behead the human bandits because he didnt have a sword at the time, but he did crack a bunch of skulls with a great club, often from behind and without warning.
    He did not go out of the way to make sure none of them gets up later, though.

    This was also the story arc where he initially refused to rescue Elan from the same bandits.
    Yup. No Cure also has its moments.

    Edit: Immediatly after the bandit storyline is the parking corral run by an orc or half orc, and the Order doesn't comment on his race at all - not even Belkar. They don't treat him very well, but he's kind of a jerk to them too, and it doesn't seem to have anything to do with his race.
    He's unpleasantly „Lawful”, but not quite a jerk, and at any rate, does not attack anyone.
    As for his species, he's probably a half-orc, and those are consistently shown to be tolerated by other races.
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-09-28 at 04:34 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #610
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    He didn't behead the human bandits because he didnt have a sword at the time, but he did crack a bunch of skulls with a great club, often from behind and without warning. This was also the story arc where he initially refused to rescue Elan from the same bandits.
    Yeah, he bonked a bunch of them with a normally lethal club, and every single one of them survived as far as I can tell. No X's for eyes. Which suggests that Rich went out of his way to avoid having the Order kill humans, even dangerous criminal humans. And at the time, he probably wouldn't have done so for a group of goblin bandits that did the same things.

  11. - Top - End - #611
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Roy is visibly surprised, however, that Good aligned goblins exist, and then Haley explains it's just a passing phase in their lives, where they arbitrarily reject the goblins' traditional belief system.
    Also, there's that later thing where they blow up the entire dungeon, likely killing these helpful Good aligned teenagers without even acknowledging the possibility (it would appear that by that point they have completely forgotten the little guys were there). There are reasons why I said we should probably ignore the whole first book (see also Lethologica's post above; in DCF much everyone is a lot more petty, cruel (barring Elan) and stupid than they are in later books).
    Yeeeeah, there is a few good reasons I specifically left DCF out of my analysis from the very beginning and read Start of Darkness in its place. Things like this are one of them. There is a definite shift in direction that is backed up by the Giant's comments on things like Redcloak and the killing of baby dragons that make me pretty sure that DCF is one of those things that if he were writing today would have a lot of things different about it, there'd be entire jokes that simply wouldn't happen, characters would be different, its like season 1 of DBZA: good for a chuckle but I often skip it to start on the second book/season for a reread and the difference in quality is noticeable. There'd be some things that would remain the same to ensure later plots still make sense, but things would be different indeed.
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  12. - Top - End - #612
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Strip 11 also features Whitecloak taunting the Order with the power of pure Evil and Roy beheading defeated and helpless foes (*cough* "Hey, I get to use my Great Cleave feat!" *cough*). It's not a strip about nuanced portrayal of unconscious prejudice against monstrous races.

    In general, trying to draw conclusions from strips that early in the comic is a mistake. Strip 13 gets talked about more in part because it's the first indication that Rich had some sort of actual plot in mind. Even then, Rich hadn't yet worked out the Snarl plotline or the nature of the Dark One, and would not do so until some time after Banjo's first appearance in strip #80. Rich does say that he tries to make the plot consistent with the early gags, but that doesn't mean he can reach through time and retroactively change them into something they're not. Strip 11 is a joke about Belkar being Evil. It's not a commentary on human-goblinoid relations.
    In the early games of D&D and games like D&D, such as Nethack, you don't normally have the ability to take prisoners in a dungeon and the enemies you put to sleep for a few rounds are quite likely to get up and come after you in a few more. So, yes. Taking a low-level spell like sleep and making it into a OHKO by means of coup-de-gracing enemies was and is is par for the course. It's simply part of the way dungeon campaigning works. That's especially the case when the spell doesn't affect the entire enemy party. In which case, it's usually better to coup-de-grace the ones that are out first, otherwise they'll be back in the fight pretty quickly. If you ever play a roguelike , you'll be doing that and worse in order to stay alive. In the midgame, after you've got past the "easy" first few turns but before your character is an invincible tank, it's very easy to die horribly. In Nethack, one of the horrible bugaboos are soldier ants; they appear in large groups, they're faster than most players, they hit multiple times a turn AND they use poison. Staying alive against such an enemy means using every trick up your sleeve, and that includes a wand of sleep to reduce the number of enemies attacking you at a time.

    There is another incident in the early comic and that is the "good" teenage goblins. It is of note that , when Roy and company had the option of a peaceful encounter with dungeon creatures they took it. The elvish leader would have killed those goblins anyway, under the principle of the only good goblin being a dead one. Roy and Haley didn't do that. Instead, they took a chance on peace and they took it at risk of their own lives. That's what good beings do.

    That's also a call back to the early D&D -- in Wizardry 1, you could encounter friendly beings in the dungeon, and by some coincidence one group of always- friendly beings (Earth Giants) were the largest sources of XP. Good-aligned characters had to end all these encounters peacefully, regardless of whether the "friendly" monsters were earth giants, goblins, or vampire lords. Failure to do so mean the party leader would shift alignment to "E" and be attacked by the rest of the party. Likewise, evil-aligned characters had to fight all these friendly creatures if they wanted to retain their alignment, or the party leader would become good and, again, they would be attacked by their own party. This was troublesome because if you wanted to play a sequel, such as later dungeons (Legacy of LLylgamyn, Wizardry III) they required parties built in Wizardry I. And for that particular dungeon, you need one good-aligned AND one evil-aligned party to make it all the way through.

    ETA: So Roy is acting as I would expect a good-aligned character to act; doing what's tactically necessary to achieve victory but also reaching out and accepting risks for a peaceful solution, even against creatures which are ostensibly evil.

    And if we're not going to allow Roy the excuse of 'tactical necessity', why do we excuse him having Belkar in the party, when Belkar has both murdered NPCs and tortured prisoners, such as the kobold in the western gate book?


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    Last edited by pendell; 2020-09-28 at 07:31 AM.
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  13. - Top - End - #613
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    ETA: So Roy is acting as I would expect a good-aligned character to act; doing what's tactically necessary to achieve victory but also reaching out and accepting risks for a peaceful solution, even against creatures which are ostensibly evil.

    And if we're not going to allow Roy the excuse of 'tactical necessity', why do we excuse him having Belkar in the party, when Belkar has both murdered NPCs and tortured prisoners, such as the kobold in the western gate book?
    It's also worth noting that the Order are fairly low-level at that point. They spend a good portion of Dungeon Crawling Fools running away from goblins. If they were more powerful maybe they could have left sleeping goblins who might get up again, but not at a level where a squad of goblins is a threat worth running away from.

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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    It's also worth noting that the Order are fairly low-level at that point. They spend a good portion of Dungeon Crawling Fools running away from goblins. If they were more powerful maybe they could have left sleeping goblins who might get up again, but not at a level where a squad of goblins is a threat worth running away from.
    My thought exactly. Mercy is the privilege of the powerful. When you're a 20th level epic fighter you can allow 1/2hd creatures to live, provided they will not raise the alarm to the actual quest nemesis, who is probably more powerful than you. That's partly where the phrase 'noblesse oblige' comes from. When you're a level 3 or level 4 character, you can't take any chances you don't absolutely have to.

    Mercy is not a suicide pact; mercy is inflicting less injury than is allowed by law and custom when you don't have to. It's doing to the other fellow what you would want done to you in your place. So if you can safely spare the life of an enemy, do so. If you can't, well, you don't.

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    Brian P.
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    My thought exactly. Mercy is the privilege of the powerful. When you're a 20th level epic fighter you can allow 1/2hd creatures to live, provided they will not raise the alarm to the actual quest nemesis, who is probably more powerful than you. That's partly where the phrase 'noblesse oblige' comes from. When you're a level 3 or level 4 character, you can't take any chances you don't absolutely have to.

    Mercy is not a suicide pact; mercy is inflicting less injury than is allowed by law and custom when you don't have to. It's doing to the other fellow what you would want done to you in your place. So if you can safely spare the life of an enemy, do so. If you can't, well, you don't.

    Respectfully,

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    I imagine that might be why Sir Francois presumably joined his party in the fighting or at least didn't stop them. He might be calling them out for committing a home invasion in the first place.
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    It's also worth noting that the Order are fairly low-level at that point. They spend a good portion of Dungeon Crawling Fools running away from goblins. If they were more powerful maybe they could have left sleeping goblins who might get up again, but not at a level where a squad of goblins is a threat worth running away from.
    That's not a very good argument, mostly since the efficacy of the Order throughout DCF is all over the place. At times, they seem to be wary of half a dozen opponents; in the grand finale they take on 30+ goblins, 18 zombies (including 3 ogre zombies) and four ghasts and grind them away with ridiculous ease despite the fact that V gets incapacitated early.

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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    That's not a very good argument, mostly since the efficacy of the Order throughout DCF is all over the place. At times, they seem to be wary of half a dozen opponents; in the grand finale they take on 30+ goblins, 18 zombies (including 3 ogre zombies) and four ghasts and grind them away with ridiculous ease despite the fact that V gets incapacitated early.
    Low level adventurers advance quickly. In fact they mention gaining a level immediatly after fighting the white-cloaked goblin cleric.

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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Low level adventurers advance quickly. In fact they mention gaining a level immediatly after fighting the white-cloaked goblin cleric.
    The Class and Level thread estimates that the Order starts the comic at level 9 and they do not gain new levels between strip no. 12 (the one you referenced) and strip no. 124 (early No Cure). Not to mention the fact that right before they found the shortcut to the Gate room, they were running from a group no stronger than the one they battleed during the grand finale. How many times do you think they leveled up via walking, anyway?
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-09-28 at 02:48 PM. Reason: Minor typo.

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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Low level adventurers advance quickly. In fact they mention gaining a level immediatly after fighting the white-cloaked goblin cleric.
    3.x advancement rate is supposed to be constant at roughly 1 level per 3.3333 adventuring days from character level 1 to character level arbitrarily high. They only spend one night in the dungeon AFAICR, which would imply advancing only once or so and go a long way toward explaining level 9+ adventurers running from small groups of goblins. They simply can't afford to shoot their wad fighting hordes of minions, because they're facing far more than the recommended ~4 encounters per day.

    Fifth edition, and pretty much everything prior to 3.x had faster advancement at low levels, but third and fourth editions were supposed to level at constant rates.

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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    That's not a very good argument, mostly since the efficacy of the Order throughout DCF is all over the place. At times, they seem to be wary of half a dozen opponents; in the grand finale they take on 30+ goblins, 18 zombies (including 3 ogre zombies) and four ghasts and grind them away with ridiculous ease despite the fact that V gets incapacitated early.
    Roy deciding to fight was suicidal, but wasn't Xykon ordering his forces to hold back so one of the Order would touch the gate?

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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    I'm well aware that Sleep is often considered a lethal move in roll playing. All very well for the kind of campaign that was running in early DCF. The story graduated from that kind of campaign a long time ago, which is why it's out of place now. Indeed, in many ways the comic now is directly criticizing the assumptions and norms Rich brought to the comic then. That's the point. And it's also why DCF is not good material for judging the nature of the comic now.

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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    The Class and Level thread estimates that the Order starts the comic at level 9 and they do not gain new levels between strip no. 12 (the one you referenced) and strip no. 124 (early No Cure). Not to mention the fact that right before they found the shortcut to the Gate room, they were running from a group no stronger than the one they battleed during the grand finale. How many times do you think they leveled up via walking, anyway?
    When I play games like this, there is often a final battle against wayyy too many enemies. The final level of Nethack involves storming the astral plane, where you are faced off with at least dozens, possibly hundreds, or angels, archangels, potentially armed with any artifacts you missed on the way up, coupled with Death , Pestilence, and Famine (who can kill with a touch regardless of level, and resurrect after a few turns) and any other high-level monsters the RNG chooses to throw at you. Of course I hack my way through all of them , typically two-weaponing a +5 artifact weapon and a +5 silver saber.

    Even so, before the big battle I try to avoid combat as much as possible, because even as overpowered as my late-game character is, it's still possible to be killed in a turn under just the right circumstances.

    That's with a late game character who is nearly invincible. With a low-level character (<10), you can be sure I'm even more cautious.

    So it doesn't surprise me that the Order is careful and avoids unnecessary combat. Even if the enemy is well under my level, the dice have a 1 in 10 chance of screwing me over; the chance of the enemy rolling a natural 20, or myself running a natural 1. 2 chances out of 20 equals 1 chance out of 10. Multiply that by the number of rolls you make in a particular encounter , and you can see why I'd want to be extremely wary of any encounter, especially if my characters aren't high-level enough to cast Raise Dead.

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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    The Class and Level thread estimates that the Order starts the comic at level 9 and they do not gain new levels between strip no. 12 (the one you referenced) and strip no. 124 (early No Cure). Not to mention the fact that right before they found the shortcut to the Gate room, they were running from a group no stronger than the one they battleed during the grand finale. How many times do you think they leveled up via walking, anyway?
    Well, after 12 they fought a chimera, more goblins, a mind flayer, more goblins, more goblins, met the linear guild, fought the various monsters guarding the elemental sigils, fought the Linear Guild, Durkon and Hilgya fought a few unconverted creatures together, Elan created a new religion, they ran from some goblins, met the good goblin teenagers, killed some kobolds in the "cavern of very easy encounters", killed the giant snake monsters with the BBQ sauce trap, fought some zombies, and finally made it to the gate room. And that's just what is on-panel.
    They are shown resting at least 3 times.
    With story XP awards I wouldn't find it hard to believe they gained 3-4 levels between 12 and 105, and 3-4 levels make a big difference at lower levels.

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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Well, after 12 they fought a chimera, more goblins, a mind flayer, more goblins, more goblins, met the linear guild, fought the various monsters guarding the elemental sigils, fought the Linear Guild, Durkon and Hilgya fought a few unconverted creatures together, Elan created a new religion, they ran from some goblins, met the good goblin teenagers, killed some kobolds in the "cavern of very easy encounters", killed the giant snake monsters with the BBQ sauce trap, fought some zombies, and finally made it to the gate room. And that's just what is on-panel.
    They are shown resting at least 3 times.
    With story XP awards I wouldn't find it hard to believe they gained 3-4 levels between 12 and 105, and 3-4 levels make a big difference at lower levels.
    V casts a 5th-level spell in strip 41. They are at least 9th level at that point.
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2020-09-28 at 05:15 PM.

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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    When I play games like this, there is often a final battle against wayyy too many enemies. The final level of Nethack involves storming the astral plane, where you are faced off with at least dozens, possibly hundreds, or angels, archangels, potentially armed with any artifacts you missed on the way up, coupled with Death , Pestilence, and Famine (who can kill with a touch regardless of level, and resurrect after a few turns) and any other high-level monsters the RNG chooses to throw at you. Of course I hack my way through all of them , typically two-weaponing a +5 artifact weapon and a +5 silver saber.

    Even so, before the big battle I try to avoid combat as much as possible, because even as overpowered as my late-game character is, it's still possible to be killed in a turn under just the right circumstances.

    That's with a late game character who is nearly invincible. With a low-level character (<10), you can be sure I'm even more cautious.

    So it doesn't surprise me that the Order is careful and avoids unnecessary combat. Even if the enemy is well under my level, the dice have a 1 in 10 chance of screwing me over; the chance of the enemy rolling a natural 20, or myself running a natural 1. 2 chances out of 20 equals 1 chance out of 10. Multiply that by the number of rolls you make in a particular encounter , and you can see why I'd want to be extremely wary of any encounter, especially if my characters aren't high-level enough to cast Raise Dead.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    False. The chances of either you rolling a nat 1 and/or the enemy rolling a nat 20 is 1-0.95^2, or 0.0975. A bit under 10%, I’d say.
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    That's not a very good argument, mostly since the efficacy of the Order throughout DCF is all over the place. At times, they seem to be wary of half a dozen opponents; in the grand finale they take on 30+ goblins, 18 zombies (including 3 ogre zombies) and four ghasts and grind them away with ridiculous ease despite the fact that V gets incapacitated early.
    I think that's more of a reflection on the Order's lack of ability to assess threats than their actual level of power. The fact that they sometimes see a sizable group of goblins as a threat and sometimes don't doesn't suggest moral inconsistency to me so much as it suggests irrationality and/or inexperience.

    Basically, I don't see any other straightforward conclusion to draw from watching the Order sometimes flee from goblins besides "at the very least, they do not see themselves as powerful enough to be able to safely ignore goblins."
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    I was not aware that the logical complement of "behead sleeping goblins" was "ignore them because you're strong enough to safely do so."

    But it's rather beside the point. As Roy put it in OtOoPCs, Xykon's castle is "crawling with goblins and other monsters." DCF goblins not being evil is either a phase or a trap. That's the kind of dungeon crawl being written. Beheading sleeping goblins would fit about as well in GDGU as Tingtox would fit in DCF.

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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    As for a racial angle, two questions come to mind:
    1. Would Roy have hesitated to behead the guards if they had been human?
    2. Would Rich have hesitated to write Roy beheading the guards if they had been human?
    When I look at #11, this is the part that feels worth talking about to me.

    This is the tendency I see more often -- much more often -- from D&D parties, even ones without murderhobos.

    "Executing helpless enemies" is a common situation and moral quandary, and many tables like to engage & debate it in-character. But those scenarios tend to be with human enemies (or more rarely elves, dwarves, etc). When it's a monstrous race, the debate sometimes doesn't happen. Or it doesn't get as much attention. Or the kills come with slightly weaker feelings of internal conflict for the PCs. All because the goblins (orcs/kobolds/lizardfolk) look different.

    I don't think it's valuable to pass a character judgment on Roy or his goblinoid ethics, one way or another, based on his behavior here (in particular, trying to analyze the "hate monsters with class levels" comment feels like reading too much into it for Roy's character, even if "monsters with class levels are rare" says something about the world itself). Especially because DCF characterization has been established as "all over the place" by Rich. It's the same point I was trying to make about Belkar's comment in #13 a few pages back in this thread. I'm not looking at the individual PCs' behaviors here, just at the comic-at-large and its narrative.

    Also, I just realized that Haley has 3 arms in panel 1.

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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    I was not aware that the logical complement of "behead sleeping goblins" was "ignore them because you're strong enough to safely do so."
    It isn't, exactly, but the point Jason was making was that the Order was not strong enough to safely ignore goblins at their back, and that that directly led to them being unwilling to leave enemies alive behind them.

    I'm uncomfortable defending it as a moral decision, so I won't, but it does make strategic sense to make sure you are unlikely to be ambushed from behind, and it's tough to argue that Roy's coups de grace didn't make the Order somewhat safer going forward.
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    Default Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

    Them running away from a few goblins probably is more of an art limitation thing more than anything. It's pretty hard to show a large enough number of goblins to be of any threat to the order, and also I guess you can just infer that there were more goblins off-panel. I'm sure if Rich were to do those early strips again he could put a lot more goblins, but with the really simple style used early on it would be kinda difficult to make it work composition wise without using some perspective tricks and camera angles that would only be implemented much later.

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