Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

[Mightymosy]

@worldsong: I like your position

I also would be interested how your country manages to realize the problem to have prostitutes be treated nice.
I live in your neighbor country, Germany, and we recently had a discussion about how miserable a lot of prostitutes seem to be treated and how to prevent that.
One position in the debate was that you generally just can't, and thus, while your arguments (and I had the same) are technically correct, but practically don't help the case that due to stupid evil humans it all goes wrong anyway, and so the only way is to outlaw prostitution again (like some of the Scandinavians do, appearantly)
So, would be interesting to know you guys do it, maybe our government can learn from you.

[Ionathus]

oh thats in Volo's guide to monsters. guess Tieflings sell better? would make sense given there is more drama potential in a race literally descended from devils than a race that gets celestial blood, since unless you make angels jerks- which people don't like- your not going to get much out of being one at first glance, but I have seen a couple streamer campaigns use aasimars as either kings, nobles or people in important positions of power due to the whole medieval divine power = authority thing, which makes sense to me and gives them problems through that. if your going to make tieflings outcast, why not make aasimars the opposite?

edit: but then again there is that Fallen Aasimar subrace....

I'd compare it to the handling of Superman in comics, as opposed to a more "human" or "flawed" superhero.

Put simply, Superman is boring. There's no good way to not make him boring, because his powers are so amazing and he's such an untouchable paragon of virtue. He doesn't struggle with whether or not he wants to be a hero, he just cares about being as much of a hero as possible, and the conflict often comes from him "not being able to save everyone".

You can stretch that out for awhile if you try, but it's never going to be as compelling as, say, a regular kid getting bitten by a spider in the middle of puberty and struggling over whether or not he even wants to BE a hero, even as he struggles with Everyday Teen Drama. To say nothing of stories like X-Men, where the superheroes are hated, feared, self-loathing, flawed people who still try to do the right thing.

Put simply, I feel like Aasimars are boring due to their Incorruptible Pure Pureness of Holy Light. Even paladins give you more to work with, if you're a standard mortal race -- because you have an Oath to strive for, even if you fall short due to your mortal shortcomings. It's something to struggle against. And without struggle, where's the drama?

[The Pilgrim]

@worldsong: I like your position

I also would be interested how your country manages to realize the problem to have prostitutes be treated nice.
I live in your neighbor country, Germany, and we recently had a discussion about how miserable a lot of prostitutes seem to be treated and how to prevent that.
One position in the debate was that you generally just can't, and thus, while your arguments (and I had the same) are technically correct, but practically don't help the case that due to stupid evil humans it all goes wrong anyway, and so the only way is to outlaw prostitution again (like some of the Scandinavians do, appearantly)
So, would be interesting to know you guys do it, maybe our government can learn from you.

Outlawing prostitution has only made the problem worse in those Scandinavian countries. Not surprisingly, as the more you force an activity into clandestinity, the more you encourage criminal activity in it. That's why you will never find an actual active prostitute that supports outlawing (or, like it's called nowadays, "abolition").

Maybe the govermnent could begin with talking to actual prostitutes and hearing what they actually think. Problem is that prostitutes will seldom go on public because they don't want their identities to be leaked, due to the social stigma attatched to the profession. Maybe the improvement of the condition of prostitution begins with eliminating the social stigma attatched to it, like it has been done with female stage performers, who were regarded as prostitutes just a century ago (even though most had no erotic content in their performances).

But, getting into practical matters, the main problem I find in the dutch approach is that they confined the prostitutes in a ghetto, turning them into atractions in a thematic park for drunken tourists. The main problem I see in the german approach is that it has kept prostitution linked to nightlife. If I had to suggest a regulation, I would begin with limiting prostitution at late hours. Daylight prostitutes seldom have problems.

[Jason]

This appears to be turning into a discussion about real world politics, which I understand is a forbidden subject on this forum.

[danielxcutter]

I'd compare it to the handling of Superman in comics, as opposed to a more "human" or "flawed" superhero.

Put simply, Superman is boring. There's no good way to not make him boring, because his powers are so amazing and he's such an untouchable paragon of virtue. He doesn't struggle with whether or not he wants to be a hero, he just cares about being as much of a hero as possible, and the conflict often comes from him "not being able to save everyone".

You can stretch that out for awhile if you try, but it's never going to be as compelling as, say, a regular kid getting bitten by a spider in the middle of puberty and struggling over whether or not he even wants to BE a hero, even as he struggles with Everyday Teen Drama. To say nothing of stories like X-Men, where the superheroes are hated, feared, self-loathing, flawed people who still try to do the right thing.

Put simply, I feel like Aasimars are boring due to their Incorruptible Pure Pureness of Holy Light. Even paladins give you more to work with, if you're a standard mortal race -- because you have an Oath to strive for, even if you fall short due to your mortal shortcomings. It's something to struggle against. And without struggle, where's the drama?

I'd say it'd depend on how much you want their heritage to influence their personality. Remember, neither Tieflings nor Aasimar actually have alignment subtypes.

Also, being put on a pedestal could certainly be used for drama too. Or as a figurehead. There are actually a lot of ways you can spin a quite angsty backstory if you put your mind to it.

This appears to be turning into a discussion about real world politics, which I understand is a forbidden subject on this forum.

Yyyyyyyyeah, I'm getting a bit uncomfortable as well.

[Mightymosy]

Better get back to pretty escapism then, right?

[Keltest]

Aasimar in 5e are actually in the DMG. Theyre the given example for how to homebrew a new race, but the book walks you step by step through it and you end with a functional race given in the book. Similar to the Oathbreaker paladin.

[Metastachydium]

Better get back to pretty escapism then, right?

This is an ugly thread with little room for „pretty escapism”, but that does not mean we do not have to play by the forum rules.

[Wildstag]

oh thats in Volo's guide to monsters. guess Tieflings sell better? would make sense given there is more drama potential in a race literally descended from devils than a race that gets celestial blood, since unless you make angels jerks- which people don't like- your not going to get much out of being one at first glance, but I have seen a couple streamer campaigns use aasimars as either kings, nobles or people in important positions of power due to the whole medieval divine power = authority thing, which makes sense to me and gives them problems through that. if your going to make tieflings outcast, why not make aasimars the opposite?

edit: but then again there is that Fallen Aasimar subrace....

I would reason it more like this: pacts with demons and devils will be more likely to result in a fiend-descended for a couple reasons. In general, devils and demons line up with one of the mortal sins, but angels don't have enough variety to represent the virtues. This being the case, lust plays into a pact with a Fiend more often than with a Celestial. The fiend can produce a spawn that can further its own goals in the mortal realm but an angel? What can having a child do for it that having a willing mortal hero can't?

Fiendblooded are just more likely because of the nature of sex in regards to morality in D&D (which is itself pretty outdated, but such is life).

Aasimar in 5e are actually in the DMG. Theyre the given example for how to homebrew a new race, but the book walks you step by step through it and you end with a functional race given in the book. Similar to the Oathbreaker paladin.

They're in both. The Oathbreaker paladin is different though, since it's featured in a segment that makes it clear that it's more intended for NPC use than PC use, and it comes with the line "A player can choose one of these options with your approval".

The two aasimar are different though.

[Keltest]

They're in both. The Oathbreaker paladin is different though, since it's featured in a segment that makes it clear that it's more intended for NPC use than PC use, and it comes with the line "A player can choose one of these options with your approval".

The two aasimar are different though.

sure, but the question was whether theyre in the core rules, and they are.

[Mightymosy]

Just to get back on topic while staying on topic: the reptilian prostitute didn't seem to be oppressed at all.
She did possibly make a poor economic decision, though :-(

[Lord Raziere]

Just to get back on topic while staying on topic: the reptilian prostitute didn't seem to be oppressed at all.
She did possibly make a poor economic decision, though :-(

For context its implied to be a 4e female dragonborn parody, since they made the women look a little more anthro so to speak.

[pendell]

Just to get back on topic while staying on topic: the reptilian prostitute didn't seem to be oppressed at all.
She did possibly make a poor economic decision, though :-(

She's in a , shall we say, a customer-service oriented profession where it doesn't pay to show a frowny face. That doesn't say anything about her work conditions or how she really feels about it. Anyone who's had to work food service or retail knows how it is; don't assume anything just because the server is smiling at you, even after you left a five cent tip.

This is an ugly thread with little room for „pretty escapism”, but that does not mean we do not have to play by the forum rules.

In the grim and dark present that is the Goblin Oppression thread, there is only slavery, organ harvesting, and murder for fun.

BLOOD FOR THE BLOODY ONE! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Mightymosy]

She's in a , shall we say, a customer-service oriented profession where it doesn't pay to show a frowny face. That doesn't say anything about her work conditions or how she really feels about it. Anyone who's had to work food service or retail knows how it is; don't assume anything just because the server is smiling at you, even after you left a five cent tip.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Right, right.

So how about we don't assume she is being oppressed??

[The Pilgrim]

Just to get back on topic while staying on topic: the reptilian prostitute didn't seem to be oppressed at all.
She did possibly make a poor economic decision, though :-(

Given the tendency of humans to reproduce with any other species in existance, I bet she will eventually find her niche of customers.

[Ionathus]

I'd say it'd depend on how much you want their heritage to influence their personality. Remember, neither Tieflings nor Aasimar actually have alignment subtypes.

By "alignment subtypes" do you mean subclass-based? Or a concept I'm unfamiliar with?

Only partially related, but I really wish we could do away with "typical alignments" in general, especially for PC roleplaying. I don't think having "typically evil" or "typically good" helps roleplaying at all (you can get what you need from the flavor paragraphs, not a single line under the actual "[Race] Traits" list), and it seems to encourage stereotyping. IMO we'd all be better off if there were a note at the start of the Races chapter with a copy of the 5e Human Alignment text: "The best and the worst are found among them."

Also, being put on a pedestal could certainly be used for drama too. Or as a figurehead. There are actually a lot of ways you can spin a quite angsty backstory if you put your mind to it.

That's a good point -- though the "pedestal/figurehead" story arc seems to be less about the character themselves and more about how people react to them. Tieflings, for instance, get the much-more-immediate "I have the blood of fiends in me, and I must FIGHT against the URGES that run within my TAINTED BLOOD." Any Bhaalspawn saga fans out there?

Aasimar in 5e are actually in the DMG. Theyre the given example for how to homebrew a new race, but the book walks you step by step through it and you end with a functional race given in the book. Similar to the Oathbreaker paladin.

Fair enough! Though the PHB is definitely the most common book for the average player to read -- and the 5e DMG is often considered the 3rd one to get out of the Core books, so they definitely get less publicity.

I would reason it more like this: pacts with demons and devils will be more likely to result in a fiend-descended for a couple reasons. In general, devils and demons line up with one of the mortal sins, but angels don't have enough variety to represent the virtues. This being the case, lust plays into a pact with a Fiend more often than with a Celestial. The fiend can produce a spawn that can further its own goals in the mortal realm but an angel? What can having a child do for it that having a willing mortal hero can't?

Fiendblooded are just more likely because of the nature of sex in regards to morality in D&D (which is itself pretty outdated, but such is life).

This is all going by 5e so your mileage may vary, but I don't think Tieflings are the product of human/fiend mating -- that combo produces Cambions instead. According to the 5e PHB flavor text:

...a pact struck generations ago infused the essence of Asmodeus -- overlord of the Nine Hells -- into their bloodline.

Of course, that's a bit more convoluted than "one of my ancestors slept with a devil", so I also understand why plenty of tables will just condense the idea.

In the grim and dark present that is the Goblin Oppression thread, there is only slavery, organ harvesting, and murder for fun.

Wait a minute, did I miss out on all the juicy organ harvesting gossip? Where?

[Lord Raziere]

Given the tendency of humans to reproduce with any other species in existance, I bet she will eventually find her niche of customers.

I mean.....the Draketooths are right over there.....in all their dead dragon genetics proof....

[Mightymosy]

We may use stuff in the comic freely, right? Or is that also against the forum rules?

Because let's phrase the earlier discussion this way:

If this bounty hunter had not been caught by Tarquin's guards and had 10000 gold in his pockets (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0738.html)
Let's also say that this fine reptilian woman (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0676.html) sucked both of his "hemipeneses" and charged him for some of these gold,
would said bounty hunter THEN be considered to have done something evil?

[pendell]

We may use stuff in the comic freely, right? Or is that also against the forum rules?

Because let's phrase the earlier discussion this way:

If this bounty hunter had not been caught by Tarquin's guards and had 10000 gold in his pockets (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0738.html)

[snip] would said bounty hunter THEN be considered to have done something evil?

I'll decline to discuss specific , explicit sexual acts if it's all the same to you.

I'm going to dodge this question because the "evil" you're asking about in this case has to be the D&D definition of evil, as opposed to the larger question which is, I think , more interesting but also against forum rules.

What DOES book of Vile Darkness say about sex for hire, or about sex acts in general? I think it's fair to say that sex within marriage is considered lawful (Example: Tarquin) and sex within a committed relationship is also considered good (or , at least, not so evil that Elan, Roy, Haley, and Celia are at risk of their alignment over it. It didn't even rate comment from the Deva). Nonconsensual sex would of course be evil. Anything else? Any light those who have read the books more thoroughly can shed?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[The Pilgrim]

We may use stuff in the comic freely, right? Or is that also against the forum rules?

Because let's phrase the earlier discussion this way:

If this bounty hunter had not been caught by Tarquin's guards and had 10000 gold in his pockets (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0738.html)
Let's also say that this fine reptilian woman (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0676.html) sucked both of his "hemipeneses" and charged him for some of these gold,
would said bounty hunter THEN be considered to have done something evil?

That makes me wonder... do lizardmen have to pay double because they have two penises?

I'll decline to discuss specific , explicit sexual acts if it's all the same to you.

I'm going to dodge this question because the "evil" you're asking about in this case has to be the D&D definition of evil, as opposed to the larger question which is, I think , more interesting but also against forum rules.

What DOES book of Vile Darkness say about sex for hire, or about sex acts in general? I think it's fair to say that sex within marriage is considered lawful (Example: Tarquin) and sex within a committed relationship is also considered good (or , at least, not so evil that Elan, Roy, Haley, and Celia are at risk of their alignment over it. It didn't even rate comment from the Deva). Nonconsensual sex would of course be evil. Anything else? Any light those who have read the books more thoroughly can shed?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

According to Roy's Archon, the LG Afterlife has a Tavern of Infinite One-Night-Stands, but they expect petitioners to feel guilty about it.

[Wildstag]

This is all going by 5e so your mileage may vary, but I don't think Tieflings are the product of human/fiend mating -- that combo produces Cambions instead. According to the 5e PHB flavor text:

...a pact struck generations ago infused the essence of Asmodeus -- overlord of the Nine Hells -- into their bloodline.

Of course, that's a bit more convoluted than "one of my ancestors slept with a devil", so I also understand why plenty of tables will just condense the idea.

I didn't mean to imply that Tieflings were literally just half-demons, that's obviously not the case. Traditionally, Tieflings were, according to the Planar Handbook of 3.5 (and further back, but that's the only evidence I have on hand) "distant descendants of humans and evil outsiders".

In Forgotten Realms lore, which 5e is basing it off of, Asmodeus did some shenanigans to make all devil-tieflings in Faerun become tied to him. Basically, even if the tiefling was descended from one of his generals or some random Pit Fiend, the entire devil-bloodline became replaced with "Asmodean bloodline". And in general, the basis of those "pacts" were that the ancestor produced children with a devil in return for power (whether or not it was consensual). It all has something to do with events during the Spellplague and 4E and all that.

[Jason]

We may use stuff in the comic freely, right? Or is that also against the forum rules?

Because let's phrase the earlier discussion this way:

If this bounty hunter had not been caught by Tarquin's guards and had 10000 gold in his pockets (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0738.html)
Let's also say that this fine reptilian woman (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0676.html) sucked both of his "hemipeneses" and charged him for some of these gold,
would said bounty hunter THEN be considered to have done something evil?

In my opinion yes. He would be guilty of treating another sentient' s body as a commodity that can be rented and objectifying her as a sex object, which is an evil act, regardless of whether she is okay with it.

I think you will find that the 3.5 Edition books are pretty silent about the morality of various sex acts in general, including prostitution. It's not exactly the focus of the game.

In fact, I don't recall any instance of even rape being described as an evil action. EDIT: There are a few instances in the Book of Vile Darkness.

[Ionathus]

I didn't mean to imply that Tieflings were literally just half-demons, that's obviously not the case. Traditionally, Tieflings were, according to the Planar Handbook of 3.5 (and further back, but that's the only evidence I have on hand) "distant descendants of humans and evil outsiders".

In Forgotten Realms lore, which 5e is basing it off of, Asmodeus did some shenanigans to make all devil-tieflings in Faerun become tied to him. Basically, even if the tiefling was descended from one of his generals or some random Pit Fiend, the entire devil-bloodline became replaced with "Asmodean bloodline". And in general, the basis of those "pacts" were that the ancestor produced children with a devil in return for power (whether or not it was consensual).

Fascinating. I had no idea! Thanks for the lore & explanation.

It all has something to do with events during the Spellplague and 4E and all that.

Doesn't everything. *Gestures vaguely at The Weave*

[pendell]

Poll question for anyone who cares to answer it: If you are a DM, would a paladin fall for seeking out a prostitute for sexual purposes?

I add the last bit, because I agree with a previous poster: There's other reasons to go to a brothel than to partake. Sex workers know almost everything going on in a city, and I imagine a worker would be more than happy to earn the equivalent of <x> hours labor for nothing more than spilling all they know. Especially if it's about an evil person who hurt the workers they take their pleasure with.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[danielxcutter]

By "alignment subtypes" do you mean subclass-based? Or a concept I'm unfamiliar with?

Only partially related, but I really wish we could do away with "typical alignments" in general, especially for PC roleplaying. I don't think having "typically evil" or "typically good" helps roleplaying at all (you can get what you need from the flavor paragraphs, not a single line under the actual "[Race] Traits" list), and it seems to encourage stereotyping. IMO we'd all be better off if there were a note at the start of the Races chapter with a copy of the 5e Human Alignment text: "The best and the worst are found among them."

Creatures with an alignment subtype like a lot of outsiders do can be assumed that it's literally part of their nature to stick to that alignment. Aasimar and Tieflings, on the other hand, do not actually have one.

That's a good point -- though the "pedestal/figurehead" story arc seems to be less about the character themselves and more about how people react to them. Tieflings, for instance, get the much-more-immediate "I have the blood of fiends in me, and I must FIGHT against the URGES that run within my TAINTED BLOOD." Any Bhaalspawn saga fans out there?

One, I'm pretty sure Bhaal was literally an evil god, so it's probably a lot stronger influence than the much diluted heritage that Tieflings have, and two, I don't particularly see a reason to nail them down into specific alignments or even inherent inclinations to specific alignments even if that is strongly implied in the books.

[hamishspence]

This is all going by 5e so your mileage may vary, but I don't think Tieflings are the product of human/fiend mating -- that combo produces Cambions instead. According to the 5e PHB flavor text:

...a pact struck generations ago infused the essence of Asmodeus -- overlord of the Nine Hells -- into their bloodline.

5e does allow for half-devil tieflings though - both Xanathar's Guide to Everything, and Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, mention that some tieflings have one parent who is a devil or archdevil. So, not every half-devil is a cambion - some are tieflings instead.

[Jason]

Poll question for anyone who cares to answer it: If you are a DM, would a paladin fall for seeking out a prostitute for sexual purposes?

It depends. I don't think visiting a prostitute once is necessarily evil enough to cause an instant fall. But it would also depend on the surrounding circumstances.
A paladin who had just lost a vital battle or a good friend and was falling back to pre-paladinhood habits to try to cope could make for a nice "this is my lowest point" story beat, and then he could realize what he had done and get on his way back to being a paragon again.

I add the last bit, because I agree with a previous poster: There's other reasons to go to a brothel than to partake. Sex workers know almost everything going on in a city, and I imagine a worker would be more than happy to earn the equivalent of <x> hours labor for nothing more than spilling all they know. Especially if it's about an evil person who hurt the workers they take their pleasure with.

Yes, that was a clever response. I might use that idea sometime in a future game.

[Mightymosy]

Poll question for anyone who cares to answer it: If you are a DM, would a paladin fall for seeking out a prostitute for sexual purposes?

I add the last bit, because I agree with a previous poster: There's other reasons to go to a brothel than to partake. Sex workers know almost everything going on in a city, and I imagine a worker would be more than happy to earn the equivalent of <x> hours labor for nothing more than spilling all they know. Especially if it's about an evil person who hurt the workers they take their pleasure with.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

1. The situation may also be the reverse: a sex worker may very well prefer to do their job rather than selling out their clients.
Because, you know, betraying their customers might be very bad for business.

It all depends on how the prostitue sees their own position. If they are running the business voluntarily, bribing them to sell out clients may well be quite disrespectful.
It may be downright evil. Consider what you expose them to when the Bbeg finds out who the paladin got their intel from!!

If they are prostitutes rather involuntarily i would expect my paladin to make a genuine effort to free them, because that is horrible!
(To steer this thread to its overdue Star Wars destination: A Jedi NOT would have left Shmi on Tatooine!)

2. Your poll: that depends on how i, the dm, describe the brothel the prostitute works in. Does she seem to work there freely or not?

I am 100% with Worldsong here. Work is always selling limited usage of your body. As long as you get to decide free what you want and what not it should be ok.
I dont think any of the (quite distasteful!) parallels people have made here compare to prostitution.
The contrary: take the merc example: i personally would rather prostitute myself than being forced to take a sword and fight some dudes and possibly die. So, a noble who is a coward and pays some beggar to duel for him ay be evil in my book. A noble who is unlucky to be born ugly and offers money to a peasant if they sleep with them is MUCH LESS of a problem for me. At least the prostitue can take her limbs back home together with her money.
It disgusts me, frankly, how "ok" people are with violence compared to stuff about sex. No wonder most prostitutes prefer to work secretly. Let no "paladin" disturb their business.

I have to ask the "use one's body is evil" fraction here a question, though: what would you rate a visit at a non-erotic massage parlour?


ETA: to give an actual comic example: i am appalled by how O Chul pushed the coward girl (forgot her name) into a mission she CLEARLY didnt want to and was afraid of. Rightfully, as it turned out, it ended with her losing a vital organ!!!
She was pressed into selling the integrity of her body, by a "hero" you all seem to celebrate all the time.
If instead he had said "i see you are not really fit to be a warrior. I can set up contacts with a brothel that offers jobs, and i know working conditions there are fine. If you want to, of course. Just an idea"
I would have preferred that. VASTLY. Losing an organ is no joke.
Then again i would have preferred more if he had JUST LEFT HER FRIGGIN ALONE!!

[dancrilis]

Poll question for anyone who cares to answer it: If you are a DM, would a paladin fall for seeking out a prostitute for sexual purposes?

No*, nor would I have them fall for a one night stand with someone who was awed by their reputation.
It is none of my business what two consenting adults do in private and I don't see that knowing about it would tell me anything about the moral character of the individuals.

*subject to other items which might make it an evil act.

Then again i would have preferred more if he had JUST LEFT HER FRIGGIN ALONE!!

I don't believe that that was an option for him - he wasn't in total command of the military and likely couldn't discharge people, by taking her with him he likely saved her from whatever the penalty for desertion was.

Seperately:
I think I might have lost track of the topic at some point - what does this have to do with Goblins?

[Mightymosy]

No*, nor would I have them fall for a one night stand with someone who was awed by their reputation.
It is none of my business what two consenting adults do in private and I don't see that knowing about it would tell me anything about the moral character of the individuals.

*subject to other items which might make it an evil act.


I don't believe that that was an option for him - he wasn't in total command of the military and likely couldn't discharge people, by taking her with him he likely saved her from whatever the penalty for desertion was.

Seperately:
I think I might have lost track of the topic at some point - what does this have to do with Goblins?

1.
It occurs to me that the O Chul story shows that humans might be oppressed just as much as goblins and dwarves and reptilian dudes (all have people (lower classes?) that need to sell their bodies for fights they die in, and neither seems to get Restoration spells when they get injured).

2. Here is a calculation for you:

O Chul: "General, I regret to inform you that Miss (forgot her name) did not perform at all at the battle of (forgot the place). As her Captain, I strongly recommend you to discharge her from this army, I don't see the potential in her to become a soldier and she might be a liability in future combats. "
Spleen +1

(You are lawful, I am sure you understand)