Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

[Keltest]

I’m not saying you can’t end a cycle of violence with more violence. Truth is, V got it right. At a certain point, a big enough bomb fixes just about everything.

HOWEVER, I’ll argue any violence is not a solution for oppression. And, ultimately this Th read is about oppression.

One of the most common symptoms of oppression is the group doing the oppressing isn’t actually opposed to violence. Instead, the oppressor believes that they have some moral right to decide WHO gets to perpetuate that violence.

As soon as you say “group A has the moral agency to sanction violence, and group B does not”, then you’ve assigned a higher moral agency to group A and it perpetuates the oppression.

I think youre conflating Redcloak with the entirety of all the goblinoid species. Redcloak is not group B in that scenario.

[Dion]

I think youre conflating Redcloak with the entirety of all the goblinoid species. Redcloak is not group B in that scenario.

Sure. But murdering redcloak is still violence, no matter how many pretty euphemisms you wrap it in.

[Keltest]

Sure. But murdering redcloak is still violence, no matter how many pretty euphemisms you wrap it in.

Yeah, and? I dont really care if its the Azurites who kill him, or the Order of the Stick, or the MITD, or the Goblins who get tired of his warmongering and well poisoning (even if the last one is unlikely for other reasons.) Heck, he could be killed in a random and inexplicably precise meteor strike while he gets out of bed tomorrow and it would work just as well.

[Jason]

Would it be murder to kill Redcloak at this point? Especially if it's done in a straight-up fight?

[Dion]

Would it be murder to kill Redcloak at this point? Especially if it's done in a straight-up fight?

Shrug. For some definitions of murder, yes. For other definitions, no.

But at any rate, this comic probably describes quite well how I feel about the our reflex to give others the moral authority to decide which violence is positive and which violence is negative: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/decisions

[Jason]

Shrug. For some definitions of murder, yes. For other definitions, no.

But at any rate, this comic probably describes quite well how I feel about the our reflex to give others the moral authority to decide which violence is positive and which violence is negative: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/decisions

So have you just argued yourself into saying the Order has no moral right to try to stop Redcloak and Xykon with violence?

[pendell]

I’m not saying you can’t end a cycle of violence with more violence. Truth is, V got it right. At a certain point, a big enough bomb fixes just about everything.

V's attempts to solve violence with ever more violence first had a mother black dragon set on zir trail, annihilated all the guardians of the fourth gate , and gave the fiends power over zir, and consequently over the fate of the world, they would not otherwise have.

I think that was one of the fundamental lessons of Don't Split the Party which V took to heart : The more power you wield clumsily, as with a cudgel, the less effective you are and the more collateral damage you cause. V could weep because, with omnipotent arcane power, V accomplished so much less than ze might if z stopped to think.

Also, I would note that it is extremely hard to solve a problem with violence permanently. There are no magic spells to instantly kill millions of people who all share the same bloodline, for which I am thankful. The more likely outcome is that the losing side is kept quiescent through sheer terror of what will happen if they so much as look in the victor's direction. Which will only last while the victor's power and will remain unchallenged. Let the victor stumble by losing a battle, and all the victor's enemies rise from their apparent docility to rend the former victor stone by stone. Let the victor step off from horror and try to become peaceable, their enemies interpret this as weakness and, again, attack them en masse.

Which is one of the lesser known problems of rule by terror: Once you start down that path it's very hard to get off it and rule any other way.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hungrycrow]

Are you suggesting this cycle of violence can be solved by... killing redcloak?

Getting Redcloak out of the picture let's them deal with a more down to earth leader, like Jirix or Oona. Then they might be able to establish peace between the Azurites and Gobbotopia, and after that, finagle Gobbotopia into diplomatic position that isn't under immediate threat of invasion by crusaders.

That's one of the more concrete improvements to the situation i can see happening in the comic. I don't see Rich having the Order solve violence or racism in general. Just putting the world on a slightly better path than it was on before.

[Dion]

So have you just argued yourself into saying the Order has no moral right to try to stop Redcloak and Xykon with violence?

I have no deep understanding of philosophy, or ethics, or morals, so I welcome any education on this others might give me.

But it seems there is some qualitative difference between the two statements:

“I had to kill some people to save the world”

“I had to kill some people to stop oppressing them”

Honestly, I’m not sure if either one is “moral”; I’m not even sure what that would mean. But it does seem to me that one feels more “justifiable” than the other.

[pendell]

I have no deep understanding of philosophy, or ethics, or morals, so I welcome any education on this others might give me.

But it seems there is some qualitative difference between the two statements:

“I had to kill some people to save the world”

“I had to kill some people to stop oppressing them”

Honestly, I’m not sure if either one is “moral”; I’m not even sure what that would mean. But it does seem to me that one feels more “justifiable” than the other.

Several thousand years of Just War Theory allow us to flesh out some of the questions you are asking , I think.

1) Is the expected remedy less harmful than the injury it is supposed to redress? If we kill one human to save six million, do we do more harm by acting or by forebearing? What if , rather than their actual deaths, it's something less dramatic? Their access to clean water and air, say? Or at the far end of the scale, what if I kill someone because I want their iPad?

Somewhere along that continuum are the two choices you face -- to save the world or to stop oppressing. And in that, what exactly is meant by "oppression"? Are they being hunted on a yearly basis, as the Spartans did the Helots? Or are people just saying mean things about them on twitter? While we have a pretty good idea from the comic what "oppression" means for the goblins, as a rule the word is too ambiguous and squishy to have much meaning, certainly not when we're discussing the taking of intelligent life. It needs clarification.

2) Is war the last resort? Have you attempted any other means and either found them wanting, or they are otherwise not practicable?

In this I think Redcloak and TDO fall short. The last time we saw them attempt peaceful dialog was back before TDO had even ascended to Godhood. Based on events in Start of Darkness, you can't really say that you've given peace a chance if you've only tried once in four hundred years.

3) Not addressed but I mention it for completeness: Is a successful war reasonably possible? Five heroes declaring war on an entire nation sounds good in some fantasy, but in real wars that sort of thing doesn't work. All you'll do is get people killed and leave things worse than before, when the other side takes it out on your nearest and dearest.

There are other aspects I am neglecting , but those are the basic requirements to have cause to fight a just war. But that's not enough: You also have to practice justice in war (saving the world doesn't justify massacring innocents who cannot contribute to the war, for example), but again, that's a longer piece.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[danielxcutter]

I swear, we could get Redcloak owning up to his mistakes and proof that goblinoids have been oppressed, and like half the thread at this point would either ignore that or bash Rich for poor storytelling.

[Jason]

I swear, we could get Redcloak owning up to his mistakes and proof that goblinoids have been oppressed, and like half the thread at this point would either ignore that or bash Rich for poor storytelling.

I very much want Redcloak to finally own up to his mistakes - probably just as he decides to finally turn on Xykon, but I also fully expect him to die immediatly afterwards. There is a reason the Death Equals Redemption trope is so popular.

[ebarde]

I don't really get what is the point of even discussing if Goblins are oppressed or not at this point? No character so far has disputed that they are, the writer has said that they are, the whole message of the comic is based around them being oppressed. You can just not enjoy the comic, that's fine, but what seriously has to be gained in arguing against something that multiple times both in and out of universe has been proven to be true? This isn't even a mystery thing, it's just as much part of the comic's premise as self aware humor and RPG mechanics.

Sure, certainly it's not literally impossible for everything we know about goblins to be a lie. Just like it's technically not impossible for the entire comic to be Roy hallucinating after hitting his head really hard or something. If you wanna believe Rich has been playing a long con for years by misleading his audience on numerous posts about the themes of his story, and his personal beliefs about fantasy tropes, just to pull the rug over everyone then sure Goblin Oppression is fiction.

[The Pilgrim]

I don't really get what is the point of even discussing if Goblins are oppressed or not at this point?

The elephant in the room is the fact that those arguing that "goblin oppresion" is real, do so basically to justify Redcloak's actions. While those arguing against are basically doing so to dismiss the idea that Redcloak has any justification for his actions at all.

Beyond the figure of Redcloak, no other goblinoid character in the story has been sustaining the "goblin oppresion" narrative. The Hobgoblins certainly weren't, and they marched to war against Azure City for the shake of fighting, looting and enslaving the humans, not because they felt they needed to get freed from their "yoke".

At this point of the story, the "goblin oppresion" narrative is just Gobbotoppian propaganda to justify the robbery of the azurite lands and the enslavement of tens of thousands (quite possibly hundreds of thousands) of humans.

the whole message of the comic is based around them being oppressed.

The comic has a lot of themes beyond "goblin oppresion", which has been largely absent from the main comic. The main comic has featured a lot more of "goblin oppresing others", or "Xykon and Redcloak brutalizing their goblinoid minions" than "goblins being oppresed by PCs".

Book 1 didn't have any themes still, the main plot begins with Book 2, were the Hobgoblins are featured as being brutalized by Redcloak for racist reasons. Book 3 presented the Hobgoblins as an anonymous mass of invaders. Book 4 and 5 presented the hobgoblins as brutal slaver occupiers. Book 6 didn't even featured the Hobgoblins at all.

So, your claim that this webcomic's main theme is "goblin oppresion" is largely unsubstained.

If you wanna believe Rich has been playing a long con for years by misleading his audience on numerous posts about the themes of his story, and his personal beliefs about fantasy tropes, just to pull the rug over everyone then sure Goblin Oppression is fiction.

It would only pull the rug over the people that apparently stopped paying attention to the comic beyond the first pages of "Start of Darkness". Because by the ending of Start of Darkness, the author had pretty much already stated that Redcloak's whole "goblin opression" narrative was a big load of hockey.

[Dion]

The elephant in the room is the fact that those arguing that "goblin oppresion" is real, do so basically to justify Redcloak's actions.

Is... is.... is this a joke?

I mean that seriously.

Is this thread tongue in cheek? Because if so, then I’m happy to continue contributing Monty Python references. I would simply ask that you make the joke *slightly* more obvious so we don’t accidentally post more “just war” dialogues.

[The Pilgrim]

Is... is.... is this a joke?

In these cyclic debates, defendants of the "goblin oppression" narrative tend to go by the line that "okay, Redcloak is wrong in his actions, but he has a point".

Also, there seems to be a widespread perception that Gobbotopia needs to continue existing after the comic's conclussion because it "solves" some sort of "unbalance" created by the "systematic oppression of goblins".

[pendell]

Is... is.... is this a joke?

I mean that seriously.

Is this thread tongue in cheek? Because if so, then I’m happy to continue contributing Monty Python references. I would simply ask that you make the joke *slightly* more obvious so we don’t accidentally post more “just war” dialogues.

It's not tongue in cheek, but monty python references are always welcome . "Life of Brian's" What have the Romans gods done for us"? seems apropos.

Here's the drain we keep circling:
1) Goblin oppression is real in OOTS verse.
2) Redcloak's narrative about goblin oppression is 1/10th historical fact, coupled with delusion, self-justification, sunken cost fallacy, and speciesism. His face should be in TV Tropes under the entry "Unreliable narrator".

If anyone remember's Miko's introduction to the comic strip
-- here --

we later saw that original panel, greatly expanded .

Everything in the original strip is true, BUT because we weren't seeing the entire context, that first strip is actively misleading. We're lead to believe Miko is an assassin sent to slay the Order, as opposed to being sent to "capture" them by an ally who wished to help them.

I think we need to take the same approach to Redcloak's story, and to Start of Darkness. He views the world a certain way, but we shouldn't take that as third person omniscient narrative view of OOTS world. It's missing needed context (as see in "How the Paladin Got His Scar").

And that's why we're constantly arguing here. There are two extremes that I see: One extreme views Redcloak's narrative as entirely reliable and a misunderstood hero. The other side dismisses Redcloak and the plight of the goblins entirely because neither Redcloak nor the Dark One are exactly poster children for honesty and integrity. Since the truth is somewhere between those two poles, we argue ceaselessly. Until the next comic, of course.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hroþila]

One of the extremes here is not "Redcloak is a misunderstood hero" but rather "Redcloak has chosen an Evil path to try to solve a real problem". If that seems extreme, I wager that the middle ground here wouldn't actually be the middle ground.

[Lord Raziere]

Just a thought: the Azurites and what's left of the OotS are willing to establish a diplomatic and trade relationship with the Island Orcs. I do believe it's worth noting that the Azurite leadership chose the diplomatic route.

Malak says he was the shaman of his tribe when he was still alive; other than that, there's little evidence that in the Western Continent Kobolds and Lizardfolks are discriminated. Most probably it's the influence of Tiamat that guarantees a good treatment of these races.

Thanks for your analysis!

Thank you, I missed the Azurites opting for a diplomatic solution. Interesting to note.

As for Familicide:
okay I'll walk that back: its not proof of oppression. but its still a human spellcaster among the human spellcaster majority having a bloodline-nuke and could be used for oppressing them in the future if not now, and was probably used at least once before.

Blood Runs In The Family will be....interesting. its taking place somewhere completely different and I don't know if I'll have much to talk about.

Spoiler: Blood Runs In The Family Analysis

Show

Desert Continent:
Hm, one wonders: if the monstrous races got all the bad land, why are humans living in the desert? Surely the desert is like.....worst land right? this continent is full of changing nations and a lot of them are humans killing each other over it, and I don't think Redcloak has ever been over here.

Spell Component Market
In the comic where a human guy provokes V into attacking him, there is a purple-robed individual with pale green skin that might indicate a half-orc caster just off panel. (Also as an aside calling V a warlock might actually have a deeper element to it: V isn't just reacting to the fact that they've been called a lower level of caster, but a warlock isn't too dissimilar from a soul splice, so the insult is actually pretty personal and fresh to them since V just got done borrowing power from fiends a couple days ago)

Bug Slavers:
I don't know what race the bug men are, but they are enslaving others, not the other way around, so humans are being oppressed here.

The Rise of Gobbotopia:
Redcloak says to a reflection with the eyepatch reversed "It'll all be worth it. You'll see." showing he still cares for his brother enough want to talk to him to catch up and see how he is doing. Then he makes a speech about how he will no longer be occupying Azure City.....but be building the sovereign nation of Gobbotopia, and says that seventeen nations around the world have recognized their borders stretching from Gobbotopia City to the mountain forts where many of their women and children still live, including Cliffport who decided to influence their position on human slavery through economic means. then he hands out a textbook which has interesting stuff to say on it once we get past the propaganda:
-the majority of the nation is goblinoid and hobgoblins make up 93% of the nation.
-however it says their borders are open to any disenfranchised humanoids and supports growing minorities of (if I get these wrong the text is very small and hard to read so bear with me):
orcs, ogres, xvarts, gnolls (including Flind), trolls, lycanthropes, minotaurs, orogs, medusas, slig/slogs (??) grimlocks, lamias, hill giants, ettins, yakfolk, ettercaps, half-orcs, half-(unknown)

so if this is true, Redcloak isn't just doing this for goblins, he is allowing other monstrous races to join his nation, backed up by the Flumphs trying to find a safe place here earlier. and some of these are pretty obscure, I didn't know what a Flind WAS until I looked it up. he could just be doing it for the PR, but it'd be bad for PR if he didn't back up his words with action, so this tells me even if he isn't shooting for it specifically, Redcloak is pretty okay with sharing his dreams of a goblin utopia with other monstrous races. that half orcs are on the list of people that its talking about, is significant because it backs up what we've seen of orcs and half orcs being in subservient positions elsewhere unless its crime, it says that being a core/PC race doesn't necessarily translate to good or fair treatment. if this were 4e or 5e, I'd suspect we'd see Tieflings on here as well. and also means Redcloak is okay with a race that is "half human".
the text ends with "and others" just off page so I assume the ones we do know of are just the more popular and larger ones they can fit in

Though one must note the races that aren't explicitly mentioned on the list of disenfranchised minorities:
duergar, drow, kobolds, lizardfolk...

things like that, which you'd think he'd mention since we'e explicitly shown at least three of these in comic, but nope. I guess this backs up "Tiamat supports her own" theory while also showing that evil versions of elves and dwarves don't get the monster treatment.

Jirix after the speech says "A legitimate peacetime leader should seem relaxed. I figure it would clarify the transition"

oh hey that goblin who got rich on hydras is selling hydra burgers in gobbotopia. neat.

"The Only Good Goblin...."
Oooooh.....this is ugly. the elf commander basically kills an unarmed prisoner saying "the only good goblin is a dead goblin." sure he is doing it out of suspicion that he is a plant, a spy to report back to Redcloak...and I can totally see Redcloak doing that ploy....but its still killing an unarmed guy whom you don't actually know whether or not they're a plant, and if what the gobbotopia textbook says about open borders to monstrous races being true he wouldn't want someone roughing up an immigrant and giving his nation a bad name. I dunno, this could legitimately go either way, but its generally not ethical to do something like this. that and the resistance could've used him as a hostage, like it probably wouldn't have worked, its Redcloak after all, he has been known to sacrifice lives before, but for a goblinoid he might be willing to deal? Mm. dirty business. dir-ty business.

after which, the report is that they killed 43 guards, and 4 browncloaks- and the killed a hobgoblin couple making out in the back. Okay thats unnecessary, the prisoner there is some ambiguity, but killing a couple of lovers making out? thats a war crime if I ever saw one.

Redcloak and Tsukiko 1:
there is an interesting exchange where Redcloak suddenly tells Tsukiko to NOT reanimate the hobgoblins who died, and she threatens him with more goblins dying to get the undead she wants/needs, where Redcloak previously would've been more okay with reanimating his dead brethren to fight as ghouls. Compare the Redcloak of No Cure For the Paladin Blues and War and XP's Pre-Revelation, and its clear Redcloak is slowly growing more caring for the goblin people under his command. he is not good yet, but he is slowly inching towards being a better person, there is character development here. he may have dipped for a time but he is a slight incline upwards, just ever so slowly.

The Empire of Blood In General:
The Empire of Blood doesn't seem to interact with monstrous races much? So I don't know if this section is making it in, but I'll take note of things about the Empire because its full of oppression but necessarily on monsters? Kobolds, draconic beings and lizardfolk are in control to some extent? Tiamat's influence is probably strong on this continent.
-The slavedrivers are the ones protesting for better pay and healthcare....thats bad. satire levels of bad. ouch.
-there is a dragon....but she is a figurehead for a human to manipulate
-you need entry papers to enter the city, which by itself isn't bad but its the fact that its basically an excuse to throw people into gladiatorial combat for life is evil
-Tarquin arranges the lizard bounty hunters to get sent to jail over something petty
-in general, injustice is pretty blind around here
-the poster outright says its a brutal oppressive regime ALSO: breads and circuses.
-uses phoenixes and pegasuses as food
The parade which features two reporters smiling soullessly
-a schools marching band screwed up another bands hands
-a bunch of actors singing a song about PC's killing things and a mascot balloon held aloft by enslaved air elementals
-a dark Sesame Street parody, and beauty pageant implied to have killed or injured the competition to get where she is
-a death squad of ninjas that then kill the reporter and badly lies that its an amateur snorkeling club. The other reporter keeps on smiling without stopping the commentary
-Tarquin sends his troops to conquer a city rather than free it
-Of Thog is one of the people put into the arena, a half orc, and he got put for urination. as Roy says before he knows who it is, its unjust to fight someone for a crime like that. given how blind the injustice is, while I'm pretty sure Tarquin's dictatorships haven't oppressed many monstrous races- I doubt they would care if they did, or pass up the opportunity. Tarquin's empires are on here, I guess simply to show that not all oppression is monster-race based and that humans are oppressed in some places as well. Its possible that such racial tensions is apart of something larger general plan by the fiends.

Resistance, Crushed:
Redcloak crushes what remains of the azure city resistance. and only one hobgoblin intentionally sacrificed for it. he is getting more precise and calculated with that kind of thing. its notable that both sides use polymorph spies in this. they can literally walk in each other's shoes, experience each other's world, see their perspective, yet they choose to kill each other with this ability instead. What a waste of magic.

Redcloak and Tsukiko 2/The Phylactery:
Tsukiko tries to bully Redcloak around, says she will reveal the secret of the Gate.....then gets killed by her own Wights. And honestly.....

I don't blame Redcloak one bit. Tsukiko is a sick twisted individual that got what was coming to her. His reasons to kill her make sense AND I'm pretty sure anyone sane would've killed her long ago. the undead as Redcloak points out are not an oppressed minority, they are necromantic weapons in the shape of a man, flesh-robots made of dark energies. moving on.

as for the dead elder, Redcloak can't really be blamed for, this guys death was on TSUKIKO's hands and he sends the guy off with a short funerary rite and a disintegration.

Its noted that when Redcloak talks about killing a paladin he says its "less satisfying" than he remembers. Xykon assumes thats just what happens when you get older, but Redcloak doesn't grow older, remember? It seems Redcloak's more revenge-driven emotions are spent and hollow, which is a change from his speech to Hinjo about "one village plus 35 years interest". Its either that or the reality that he is actually achieving something for his people and thus giving a him a lot to work on and organize is softening him.

Death of the Draketooths:
And here we find out the full extent of the Familicide, rearing its ugly head. the law of unintended consequences is strong when decide to destroy so much, so fast.

Demons and Reasonable Adults:
Sabine claims that if reasonable adults keep up talking out their differences that her and Qarr would be out of a job. more evidence for my theory that the devils and demons are specifically keeping the racial tensions up to serve their own agenda of more evil.

The rest of the book doesn't really concern this discussion. At least I can't find anything else.

[Keltest]

Thank you, I missed the Azurites opting for a diplomatic solution. Interesting to note.

As for Familicide:
okay I'll walk that back: its not proof of oppression. but its still a human spellcaster among the human spellcaster majority having a bloodline-nuke and could be used for oppressing them in the future if not now, and was probably used at least once before.

Blood Runs In The Family will be....interesting. its taking place somewhere completely different and I don't know if I'll have much to talk about.

Spoiler: Blood Runs In The Family Analysis

Show

Desert Continent:
Hm, one wonders: if the monstrous races got all the bad land, why are humans living in the desert? Surely the desert is like.....worst land right? this continent is full of changing nations and a lot of them are humans killing each other over it, and I don't think Redcloak has ever been over here.

Spell Component Market
In the comic where a human guy provokes V into attacking him, there is a purple-robed individual with pale green skin that might indicate a half-orc caster just off panel. (Also as an aside calling V a warlock might actually have a deeper element to it: V isn't just reacting to the fact that they've been called a lower level of caster, but a warlock isn't too dissimilar from a soul splice, so the insult is actually pretty personal and fresh to them since V just got done borrowing power from fiends a couple days ago)

Bug Slavers:
I don't know what race the bug men are, but they are enslaving others, not the other way around, so humans are being oppressed here.

The Rise of Gobbotopia:
Redcloak says to a reflection with the eyepatch reversed "It'll all be worth it. You'll see." showing he still cares for his brother enough want to talk to him to catch up and see how he is doing. Then he makes a speech about how he will no longer be occupying Azure City.....but be building the sovereign nation of Gobbotopia, and says that seventeen nations around the world have recognized their borders stretching from Gobbotopia City to the mountain forts where many of their women and children still live, including Cliffport who decided to influence their position on human slavery through economic means. then he hands out a textbook which has interesting stuff to say on it once we get past the propaganda:
-the majority of the nation is goblinoid and hobgoblins make up 93% of the nation.
-however it says their borders are open to any disenfranchised humanoids and supports growing minorities of (if I get these wrong the text is very small and hard to read so bear with me):
orcs, ogres, xvarts, gnolls (including Flind), trolls, lycanthropes, minotaurs, orogs, medusas, slig/slogs (??) grimlocks, lamias, hill giants, ettins, yakfolk, ettercaps, half-orcs, half-(unknown)

so if this is true, Redcloak isn't just doing this for goblins, he is allowing other monstrous races to join his nation, backed up by the Flumphs trying to find a safe place here earlier. and some of these are pretty obscure, I didn't know what a Flind WAS until I looked it up. he could just be doing it for the PR, but it'd be bad for PR if he didn't back up his words with action, so this tells me even if he isn't shooting for it specifically, Redcloak is pretty okay with sharing his dreams of a goblin utopia with other monstrous races. that half orcs are on the list of people that its talking about, is significant because it backs up what we've seen of orcs and half orcs being in subservient positions elsewhere unless its crime, it says that being a core/PC race doesn't necessarily translate to good or fair treatment. if this were 4e or 5e, I'd suspect we'd see Tieflings on here as well. and also means Redcloak is okay with a race that is "half human".
the text ends with "and others" just off page so I assume the ones we do know of are just the more popular and larger ones they can fit in

Though one must note the races that aren't explicitly mentioned on the list of disenfranchised minorities:
duergar, drow, kobolds, lizardfolk...

things like that, which you'd think he'd mention since we'e explicitly shown at least three of these in comic, but nope. I guess this backs up "Tiamat supports her own" theory while also showing that evil versions of elves and dwarves don't get the monster treatment.

Jirix after the speech says "A legitimate peacetime leader should seem relaxed. I figure it would clarify the transition"

oh hey that goblin who got rich on hydras is selling hydra burgers in gobbotopia. neat.

"The Only Good Goblin...."
Oooooh.....this is ugly. the elf commander basically kills an unarmed prisoner saying "the only good goblin is a dead goblin." sure he is doing it out of suspicion that he is a plant, a spy to report back to Redcloak...and I can totally see Redcloak doing that ploy....but its still killing an unarmed guy whom you don't actually know whether or not they're a plant, and if what the gobbotopia textbook says about open borders to monstrous races being true he wouldn't want someone roughing up an immigrant and giving his nation a bad name. I dunno, this could legitimately go either way, but its generally not ethical to do something like this. that and the resistance could've used him as a hostage, like it probably wouldn't have worked, its Redcloak after all, he has been known to sacrifice lives before, but for a goblinoid he might be willing to deal? Mm. dirty business. dir-ty business.

after which, the report is that they killed 43 guards, and 4 browncloaks- and the killed a hobgoblin couple making out in the back. Okay thats unnecessary, the prisoner there is some ambiguity, but killing a couple of lovers making out? thats a war crime if I ever saw one.

Redcloak and Tsukiko 1:
there is an interesting exchange where Redcloak suddenly tells Tsukiko to NOT reanimate the hobgoblins who died, and she threatens him with more goblins dying to get the undead she wants/needs, where Redcloak previously would've been more okay with reanimating his dead brethren to fight as ghouls. Compare the Redcloak of No Cure For the Paladin Blues and War and XP's Pre-Revelation, and its clear Redcloak is slowly growing more caring for the goblin people under his command. he is not good yet, but he is slowly inching towards being a better person, there is character development here. he may have dipped for a time but he is a slight incline upwards, just ever so slowly.

The Empire of Blood In General:
The Empire of Blood doesn't seem to interact with monstrous races much? So I don't know if this section is making it in, but I'll take note of things about the Empire because its full of oppression but necessarily on monsters? Kobolds, draconic beings and lizardfolk are in control to some extent? Tiamat's influence is probably strong on this continent.
-The slavedrivers are the ones protesting for better pay and healthcare....thats bad. satire levels of bad. ouch.
-there is a dragon....but she is a figurehead for a human to manipulate
-you need entry papers to enter the city, which by itself isn't bad but its the fact that its basically an excuse to throw people into gladiatorial combat for life is evil
-Tarquin arranges the lizard bounty hunters to get sent to jail over something petty
-in general, injustice is pretty blind around here
-the poster outright says its a brutal oppressive regime ALSO: breads and circuses.
-uses phoenixes and pegasuses as food
The parade which features two reporters smiling soullessly
-a schools marching band screwed up another bands hands
-a bunch of actors singing a song about PC's killing things and a mascot balloon held aloft by enslaved air elementals
-a dark Sesame Street parody, and beauty pageant implied to have killed or injured the competition to get where she is
-a death squad of ninjas that then kill the reporter and badly lies that its an amateur snorkeling club. The other reporter keeps on smiling without stopping the commentary
-Tarquin sends his troops to conquer a city rather than free it
-Of Thog is one of the people put into the arena, a half orc, and he got put for urination. as Roy says before he knows who it is, its unjust to fight someone for a crime like that. given how blind the injustice is, while I'm pretty sure Tarquin's dictatorships haven't oppressed many monstrous races- I doubt they would care if they did, or pass up the opportunity. Tarquin's empires are on here, I guess simply to show that not all oppression is monster-race based and that humans are oppressed in some places as well. Its possible that such racial tensions is apart of something larger general plan by the fiends.

Resistance, Crushed:
Redcloak crushes what remains of the azure city resistance. and only one hobgoblin intentionally sacrificed for it. he is getting more precise and calculated with that kind of thing. its notable that both sides use polymorph spies in this. they can literally walk in each other's shoes, experience each other's world, see their perspective, yet they choose to kill each other with this ability instead. What a waste of magic.

Redcloak and Tsukiko 2/The Phylactery:
Tsukiko tries to bully Redcloak around, says she will reveal the secret of the Gate.....then gets killed by her own Wights. And honestly.....

I don't blame Redcloak one bit. Tsukiko is a sick twisted individual that got what was coming to her. His reasons to kill her make sense AND I'm pretty sure anyone sane would've killed her long ago. the undead as Redcloak points out are not an oppressed minority, they are necromantic weapons in the shape of a man, flesh-robots made of dark energies. moving on.

as for the dead elder, Redcloak can't really be blamed for, this guys death was on TSUKIKO's hands and he sends the guy off with a short funerary rite and a disintegration.

Its noted that when Redcloak talks about killing a paladin he says its "less satisfying" than he remembers. Xykon assumes thats just what happens when you get older, but Redcloak doesn't grow older, remember? It seems Redcloak's more revenge-driven emotions are spent and hollow, which is a change from his speech to Hinjo about "one village plus 35 years interest". Its either that or the reality that he is actually achieving something for his people and thus giving a him a lot to work on and organize is softening him.

Death of the Draketooths:
And here we find out the full extent of the Familicide, rearing its ugly head. the law of unintended consequences is strong when decide to destroy so much, so fast.

Demons and Reasonable Adults:
Sabine claims that if reasonable adults keep up talking out their differences that her and Qarr would be out of a job. more evidence for my theory that the devils and demons are specifically keeping the racial tensions up to serve their own agenda of more evil.

The rest of the book doesn't really concern this discussion. At least I can't find anything else.

The fact that V targeted a dragon and affected humans with it (as well as many steps between) would suggest that it is not particularly intended to wipe out species. Sure it "could" be used that way, but so could an ordinary sword. It isnt particularly more suited to wiping out species, specifically, than any other weapon of mass death would be.

Also, for the hobgoblin couple that got killed by the resistance, remember that Redcloak specifically calls out that the non-combatants are still back where the hobgoblins originally came from. Thats part of why they use slaves to work the economy for the time being. Theyre almost guaranteed to be off duty soldiers (or on duty soldiers doing something they shouldnt) as opposed to random civilians.

[Lord Raziere]

The fact that V targeted a dragon and affected humans with it (as well as many steps between) would suggest that it is not particularly intended to wipe out species. Sure it "could" be used that way, but so could an ordinary sword. It isnt particularly more suited to wiping out species, particularly, than any other weapon of mass death would be.

I don't think "Its only as bad as any other weapon of massive death" is as good of a point as you think it is. genocide is genocide dude. no matter who gets caught in the crossfire. the fact that its technically worse than genocide by targeting more people doesn't make it better.

[Metastachydium]

neither Redcloak nor the Dark One are exactly poster children for honesty and integrity

Name one instance of Big Purple being dishonest that we know of for certain.

Desert Continent:
Hm, one wonders: if the monstrous races got all the bad land, why are humans living in the desert? Surely the desert is like.....worst land right? this continent is full of changing nations and a lot of them are humans killing each other over it, and I don't think Redcloak has ever been over here.

They have good lands and bad lands. It's not like having the best third of an entire continent for one's species, but still beats only having bad lands.

Spell Component Market
In the comic where a human guy provokes V into attacking him, there is a purple-robed individual with pale green skin that might indicate a half-orc caster just off panel.

Caster's a lizard. Their crest and tail are both visible. Like I said earlier, lizards and kobolds seem to be enfranchised in Sandsedge, the Empire of Blood and (obviously) Reptilia. It's also likely that Western kobolds are better off than other „monsters” because of Tiamat's influence.

Bug Slavers:
I don't know what race the bug men are, but they are enslaving others, not the other way around, so humans are being oppressed here.

They are criminals, basically, with a hive of tgheir own somewhere underground, living off passing soft targets. I don't think oppression is the right word here.

The Rise of Gobbotopia:
Redcloak says to a reflection with the eyepatch reversed "It'll all be worth it. You'll see." showing he still cares for his brother enough want to talk to him to catch up and see how he is doing. Then he makes a speech about how he will no longer be occupying Azure City.....but be building the sovereign nation of Gobbotopia, and says that seventeen nations around the world have recognized their borders stretching from Gobbotopia City to the mountain forts where many of their women and children still live, including Cliffport who decided to influence their position on human slavery through economic means. then he hands out a textbook which has interesting stuff to say on it once we get past the propaganda:
-the majority of the nation is goblinoid and hobgoblins make up 93% of the nation.
-however it says their borders are open to any disenfranchised humanoids and supports growing minorities of (if I get these wrong the text is very small and hard to read so bear with me):
orcs, ogres, xvarts, gnolls (including Flind), trolls, lycanthropes, minotaurs, orogs, medusas, slig/slogs (??) grimlocks, lamias, hill giants, ettins, yakfolk, ettercaps, half-orcs, half-(unknown)

so if this is true, Redcloak isn't just doing this for goblins, he is allowing other monstrous races to join his nation, backed up by the Flumphs trying to find a safe place here earlier. and some of these are pretty obscure, I didn't know what a Flind WAS until I looked it up. he could just be doing it for the PR, but it'd be bad for PR if he didn't back up his words with action, so this tells me even if he isn't shooting for it specifically, Redcloak is pretty okay with sharing his dreams of a goblin utopia with other monstrous races. that half orcs are on the list of people that its talking about, is significant because it backs up what we've seen of orcs and half orcs being in subservient positions elsewhere unless its crime, it says that being a core/PC race doesn't necessarily translate to good or fair treatment. if this were 4e or 5e, I'd suspect we'd see Tieflings on here as well. and also means Redcloak is okay with a race that is "half human".
the text ends with "and others" just off page so I assume the ones we do know of are just the more popular and larger ones they can fit in

One thing that people keep overlooking is that according to Redcloak's story,

Spoiler: SoD

Show

all „monster races” have been created as XP-fodder. He never claims it's a purely goblinoid issue.

Also, for the hobgoblin couple that got killed by the resistance, remember that Redcloak specifically calls out that the non-combatants are still back where the hobgoblins originally came from. Thats part of why they use slaves to work the economy for the time being. Theyre almost guaranteed to be off duty soldiers (or on duty soldiers doing something they shouldnt) as opposed to random civilians.

Unless they employ child soldiers with no armour on them, I wouldn't be so sure.

[Keltest]

I don't think "Its only as bad as any other weapon of massive death" is as good of a point as you think it is. genocide is genocide dude. no matter who gets caught in the crossfire. the fact that its technically worse than genocide by targeting more people doesn't make it better.

Youre the one who is trying to argue that its a tool of oppression against the monster races by virtue of it being a big weapon. Yeah, it is a big weapon, and thats pretty awful, but its awful because its a weapon of mass indiscriminate death at all, not because it was developed by a human, and certainly not because of a completely baseless assumption that it was used to oppress the goblins or other monsters, specifically, to establish PC-racial dominance.

Unless they employ child soldiers with no armour on them, I wouldn't be so sure.

Given Xykon's treatment of the hobgoblins, i wouldnt necessarily rule that out as an impossibility except that i dont think Rich wants to write that.

Regardless, existing children in the city are also explicitly called out as having been born in the year since the occupation started. Goblins grow up fast, but not that fast.

[Ionathus]

In these cyclic debates, defendants of the "goblin oppression" narrative tend to go by the line that "okay, Redcloak is wrong in his actions, but he has a point".

Also, there seems to be a widespread perception that Gobbotopia needs to continue existing after the comic's conclussion because it "solves" some sort of "unbalance" created by the "systematic oppression of goblins".

What you said exactly but without being sarcastic.

Seriously, this is the entire thread in a nutshell. All the things you put in quotation marks are the actual opinions of many readers, and you're phrasing them as ludicrous extremes. You say Redcloak is Irredeemable and Wrong Forever, and you provide convenient explanations for all the discrimination against monstrous races in the story.

Other people say there's more going on, maybe an entire race can be oppressed even if some members have it pretty well off, and you extrapolate their arguments to "so you're saying Redcloak and the Gobbotopia Slavers are innocent?" while refusing to see ANY nuance in the story.

As Brian P. put it, this discussion is circling the drain.

[pendell]

Youre the one who is trying to argue that its a tool of oppression against the monster races by virtue of it being a big weapon. Yeah, it is a big weapon, and thats pretty awful, but its awful because its a weapon of mass indiscriminate death at all, not because it was developed by a human, and certainly not because of a completely baseless assumption that it was used to oppress the goblins or other monsters, specifically, to establish PC-racial dominance.

While they've never spelled it out, I'd always assumed that Haera had created Familicide for use against other humans -- her own rivals. Capulets vs. Montagues, Starks vs. Lannisters, Hatfields vs. Mccoys. The fact that it works against other species is a bonus. I would expect a spell aimed at specific races to be a genoicide, rather than familicide, spell. It exists in nethack .

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Keltest]

While they've never spelled it out, I'd always assumed that Haera had created Familicide for use against other humans -- her own rivals. Capulets vs. Montagues, Starks vs. Lannisters, Hatfields vs. Mccoys. The fact that it works against other species is a bonus. I would expect a spell aimed at specific races to be a genoicide, rather than familicide, spell. It exists in nethack .

Respectfully,

Brian P.

That was my assumption as well. Certainly its a spell intended to inflict a very specific form of cruelty on its target, rather than one designed to cast the widest net.

[Worldsong]

And that's why we're constantly arguing here. There are two extremes that I see: One extreme views Redcloak's narrative as entirely reliable and a misunderstood hero. The other side dismisses Redcloak and the plight of the goblins entirely because neither Redcloak nor the Dark One are exactly poster children for honesty and integrity. Since the truth is somewhere between those two poles, we argue ceaselessly. Until the next comic, of course.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

One of the extremes here is not "Redcloak is a misunderstood hero" but rather "Redcloak has chosen an Evil path to try to solve a real problem". If that seems extreme, I wager that the middle ground here wouldn't actually be the middle ground.

Seconding hroþila here. I don't think anyone here has been claiming that Redcloak is a misunderstood hero. The one thing that I (and the people whose side I'm on) have been arguing is that the discrimination and oppression of monster races is real and that Redcloak being a villain doesn't make it magically disappear or false.

I'm seriously beginning to consider that the exact reason why this argument keeps going is because apparently the idea "It's not fundamentally impossible for a villain to have an accurate assessment of the situation" is incomprehensible or unacceptable for some people.

[Keltest]

Seconding hroþila here. I don't think anyone here has been claiming that Redcloak is a misunderstood hero. The one thing that I (and the people whose side I'm on) have been arguing is that the discrimination and oppression of monster races is real and that Redcloak being a villain doesn't make it magically disappear or false.

I'm seriously beginning to consider that the exact reason why this argument keeps going is because apparently the idea "It's not fundamentally impossible for a villain to have an accurate assessment of the situation" is incomprehensible or unacceptable for some people.

Why should we take Redcloak at his word on this? He's obviously not objective about it, has a vested personal interest in fabricating reasons for revenge, and he lacks any sort of independent corroboration. None of the other goblin or monster races seem to have any particular feelings about this alleged oppression, and indeed whenever communities of monsters show up that arent explicitly acting as bandits, they seem to be getting along with humans and PC races just fine (or at least as well as the PC races get along with each other).

[Worldsong]

Why should we take Redcloak at his word on this? He's obviously not objective about it, has a vested personal interest in fabricating reasons for revenge, and he lacks any sort of independent corroboration. None of the other goblin or monster races seem to have any particular feelings about this alleged oppression, and indeed whenever communities of monsters show up that arent explicitly acting as bandits, they seem to be getting along with humans and PC races just fine (or at least as well as the PC races get along with each other).

Because you're not taking Redcloak's word for it, you're taking Rich's word for it. And if you still don't believe that nothing I'm going to say is going to convince you.

[pendell]

Because you're not taking Redcloak's word for it, you're taking Rich's word for it. And if you still don't believe that nothing I'm going to say is going to convince you.

Redcloak isn't a third person omniscient narrator. Rich has told us that goblin oppression is a real thing in the comics .. but what Rich believes about goblin oppression isn't what Redcloak believes. Redcloak has a twisted view , which is why he's the villain in this story rather than the hero.

SOD shows the original atrocity and experiences which made Redcloak who he is today. But what Redcloak took away from those experiences isn't what other goblins who lived through it did. Redcloak's mad adherence to the Plan, at the expense of the goblins he supposedly cares about, has been called out twice in comic. The first time by a fellow goblin in Start of Darkness, the second time by Minrah in the main comic.

Respectfully,

Brian P.