Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?

[Jason]

Why is this debated over and over again? I can think of several reasons:

1. While the author's clear intent seems to be that goblins really are oppressed in Stickworld, the examples of actual oppression of goblins shown in the comic are not numerous and tend to be of the sort that can easily be blamed on individual bad actors, like Gin-Jin, rather than on corrupt systems.
As an example: as HtPGHS shows, hardly anyone in Azure city knew the Sapphire Guard even existed, let alone that they had slaughtered entire goblin villages. When this fact does become more widely known, the leadership of the city acts quickly to reform the Guard. That sounds more like a system that worked than one that produces more oppression.

2. The oppression is a stated major motivation of one of the two main villains. And he is obviously racist himself (shown numerous times). A reader is therefore lead to question his motives, including whether this oppression exists in the first place and to what degree, and if it does exist what other means than what the villain is choosing to attempt might be used to resolve it. His backstory shows rather unambiguously that he did not have to choose his current path.

3. Rich has made statements that amount to saying that D&D players are playing the game wrong, in a moral sense, 90% of the time, and have been doing so throughout D&D's history, and he's trying to criticize their playstyle. Long-time D&D players like myself may question whether this claim is accurate or fair. We might also want to debate the implications of the alignment system (itself a favorite subject of debate since its creation) assigning evil alignments to entire fictional species and whether Rich is correct to criticize this practice.

4. Racial oppression is a big issue of debate in the US in the real world right now. Sucessful fiction has often offered insight into real world issues by presenting a fictionalized version and provoking debate. Enough said.

I don't see the debate on any of these points being resolved anytime soon.

[understatement]

If you want a "reliable source" of the Sapphire Guard (a cosmically Lawful-Good divinely-sanctioned strike team) actively oppressing a large set of goblinoids (and somehow don't buy SOD's beginning):

Spoiler: GDGU

Show

Saha: And that's why you naturally side with the downtrodden and oppressed.

O-Chul: Yes, of course!

Saha: Even when it's your own people [SG] doing the oppressing.

O-Chul: ...Damn. [He goes on to agree with her.]

[pendell]

So let me see if I understand this.

What it will take to convince the "oppression isn't real" argumenters that it is is to either A) have it portrayed on-screen unambiguously in the main comic or b) have some authority figure who is impartial and uninterested (the Oracle, say, or Thor) tell us "yes, this oppression is real and Redcloak/TDO aren't just making it up."

Absent such evidence, we are left with Redcloak's word , and we've already seen that his word does not match up to the reality of the world he lives in.

Regrettably, it will probably be a long time before we see any such evidence. The focus is on the heroes, and we see most of the comic through their eyes. Which is why we rarely see oppression or what not; not being victims themselves, the heroes not only rarely see it but they don't usually go to places where it is most visible.

Maybe we can call this 'PC Privilege'?

Perhaps the Giant will see fit to spell this out more clearly in comic; perhaps not. But even so, I think his own comments and the other extra-main-comic material make it pretty clear, at least to my eyes, that oppression exists in more than Redcloak's imagination.

But if we're going to rely totally on the main comic, I think we are stalemated, at least for now.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Keltest]

I kind of just answered this to Dancrilis but I'll just refine it, I agree that the comic doesn't show a lot of oppression but I also don't think it portrays a world where everything is hunky-dory. Monster races and PC races rarely seem to mingle, all the established bastions of civilization appear to be dominated by PC races, and the biggest example we have of a monster race settlement (other than Gobbotopia) is a city which is at worst somewhere between 15 to 20 times as small as Azure City and at best around... 5 times as small? I mean even with Azure City being the biggest city that's a glaring difference and if Hobgoblin City was the biggest settlement that does imply things aren't going very well for the monster races.

As a rule I exempt lizardfolk and kobolds because it appears that Tiamat has a thing for reptiles so it'd make sense that out of all the monster races they'd be able to escape that situation. It has been established as a cold hard fact that goblinoids didn't worship anyone before the Dark One, and one easy explanation for that is that no deity wanted to suppor them like Tiamat appears to have supported lizardfolk and kobolds.

Basically it seems to me that something is up with PC races appearing to have civilization, society, progress and culture whereas monster races for the most part seem to be more in the category of 'getting by'. Which could have reasons other than global oppression/discrimination/mistreatment but I haven't really heard any beyond 'maybe monster races are just bastards who have no interest in establishing functional empires and kingdoms' which seems... like a really easy way out.

In settings like the Forgotten Realms that tend to play the monster races straight, that typically is how it plays out. Orcs dont establish kingdoms and trade partners because theyre inherently volatile and difficult to forge into a unified culture in the way that is needed. R. A. Salvatore wrote a series about an orc kind that tried, and it worked for a couple generations before a belligerent warlord rose to power and the whole thing basically dissolved into civil war before it got broken up by its neighbors. Goblins are selfish and cowardly and even dubiously have communities except as is necessary for their survival. Kobolds are... actually, kobolds ironically are usually explicitly oppressed in FR, just by dragons instead of PC races. Dragons themselves are arrogant, lazy and anti-social even when they arent evil.

In OOTS meanwhile, part of it at least seems to be the races proclivities for specific regions not overlapping much. The Dwarves would never live in a forest and the Elves would never live under the mountains. The humans "can" live about anywhere, and seem to have moved in with the lizardfolk and kobolds in the west. The orcs are a hard read, but evidently share space with the humans, at least to a point, and simply arent as numerous (ironically). Goblins seem to be the only ones who want to live in an already occupied region who arent at least tolerated there.

[Metastachydium]

In OOTS meanwhile, part of it at least seems to be the races proclivities for specific regions not overlapping much. The Dwarves would never live in a forest and the Elves would never live under the mountains. The humans "can" live about anywhere, and seem to have moved in with the lizardfolk and kobolds in the west. The orcs are a hard read, but evidently share space with the humans, at least to a point, and simply arent as numerous (ironically). Goblins seem to be the only ones who want to live in an already occupied region who arent at least tolerated there.

I see. Reptilian humanoids have a proclivity for living in a hellhole of a desert, and the ones we see in the North and South (in Dorukan's Dungeon, at Goblin Dan's, in occupied Azure City, at the Oracle's tower) are just too stupid to know they have this proclivity. Also, the Western ones would really rather not live in the Elven third, despite the fact that the elves would welcome them warmly.
Also, the „monster races” have incredibly sparse populations, that's why we don't see more of them.

[Keltest]

I see. Reptilian humanoids have a proclivity for living in a hellhole of a desert, and the ones we see in the North and South (in Dorukan's Dungeon, at Goblin Dan's, in occupied Azure City, at the Oracle's tower) are just too stupid to know they have this proclivity. Also, the Western ones would really rather not live in the Elven third, despite the fact that the elves would welcome them warmly.
Also, the „monster races” have incredibly sparse populations, that's why we don't see more of them.

The hellhole parts of the desert are explicitly unoccupied. None of the lizardfolk, kobolds or humans in the west live there.

And i dont see any dwarves living in the Southern Continent either, even though they would almost certainly get along with the humans there and wouldnt mind, so clearly theres a reason species dont just pick up and move to the other side of the world en masse besides hostile natives.

The elves meanwhile seem content to have the Azurites in their space, settling on a former elven colony, so it isnt like the Westerners couldnt go somewhere else if they were determined to, except maybe the Lizardfolk, who are traditionally cold blooded and require warm climates for their biology to work at all.

[Metastachydium]

The hellhole parts of the desert are explicitly unoccupied. None of the lizardfolk, kobolds or humans in the west live there.

And i dont see any dwarves living in the Southern Continent either, even though they would almost certainly get along with the humans there and wouldnt mind, so clearly theres a reason species dont just pick up and move to the other side of the world en masse besides hostile natives.

The elves meanwhile seem content to have the Azurites in their space, settling on a former elven colony, so it isnt like the Westerners couldnt go somewhere else if they were determined to.

I don't have the impression that anyone (barring hotshot military geniuses) wants to live south of those mountains (even on the „livable scraps” – sounds great, doesn't it, by the way?), and the Elves quite officcially have the northern third sealed up.
As for the dwarves, they have a huge dwarven homeland. Can you show me the orc or lizardfolk homeland which is comparable in size, worth, recognition and life expectancy?

[Jason]

So let me see if I understand this.

What it will take to convince the "oppression isn't real" argumenters that it is is to either A) have it portrayed on-screen unambiguously in the main comic or b) have some authority figure who is impartial and uninterested (the Oracle, say, or Thor) tell us "yes, this oppression is real and Redcloak/TDO aren't just making it up."

Yep, pretty much. The closest we've come is Durkon saying "I wouldna' be surprised."

And I understand full well that the focus of the comic isn't (and shouldn't be) showing examples of goblin oppression, so there are perfectly acceptable reasons for why it hasn't been present. I'm certainly not saying "stop the story and go draw some seriously depressing examples of goblins being oppressed right now!"

Regrettably, it will probably be a long time before we see any such evidence. The focus is on the heroes, and we see most of the comic through their eyes. Which is why we rarely see oppression or what not; not being victims themselves, the heroes not only rarely see it but they don't usually go to places where it is most visible.

We did see Durkon being oppressed by insensitive humans in On the Origin of PCs, just not to the point of them actively trying to kill him.

Maybe we can call this 'PC Privilege'?

Please no.

[Worldsong]

In settings like the Forgotten Realms that tend to play the monster races straight, that typically is how it plays out. Orcs dont establish kingdoms and trade partners because theyre inherently volatile and difficult to forge into a unified culture in the way that is needed. R. A. Salvatore wrote a series about an orc kind that tried, and it worked for a couple generations before a belligerent warlord rose to power and the whole thing basically dissolved into civil war before it got broken up by its neighbors. Goblins are selfish and cowardly and even dubiously have communities except as is necessary for their survival. Kobolds are... actually, kobolds ironically are usually explicitly oppressed in FR, just by dragons instead of PC races. Dragons themselves are arrogant, lazy and anti-social even when they arent evil.

In OOTS meanwhile, part of it at least seems to be the races proclivities for specific regions not overlapping much. The Dwarves would never live in a forest and the Elves would never live under the mountains. The humans "can" live about anywhere, and seem to have moved in with the lizardfolk and kobolds in the west. The orcs are a hard read, but evidently share space with the humans, at least to a point, and simply arent as numerous (ironically). Goblins seem to be the only ones who want to live in an already occupied region who arent at least tolerated there.

The latter wouldn't necessarily rule out that the monster races are in a bad spot and need help though. If goblins share their preferred habitat with humans but can't settle down in such a habitat because humans have already claimed everything and their relations with goblins are primarily hostile, then their plight is still real.

It'd just mean that instead of monster oppression being divine mandate the goblins just got beaten out in settling all the good pieces of land. In which case Redcloak would be correct that his people are forced to live in subpar conditions and that this must be rectified and his main mistake (aside from taking the Evil route) is assuming it's a divine issue.

Which honestly I'd be fine with. Granted given what we've seen of the deities at the Godsmoot it really wouldn't surprise me if the amount of deities opposed to planting XP fodder for their servants were the minority, but it could also work well if it was a purely mortal concern instead (up until this point where the gods suddenly have reason to be very interested in the fate of the goblinoids).

[hroþila]

The argument "other monster races [namely the Western lizardfolk] are doing well, so no handicap or oppression exist" should not go unchallenged. I find it appalling.

[hamishspence]

We did see Durkon being oppressed by insensitive humans in On the Origin of PCs, just not to the point of them actively trying to kill him.

His party, at least, were actively trying to kill him - just in a fashion that "didn't get their hands dirty".

[Keltest]

I don't have the impression that anyone (barring hotshot military geniuses) wants to live south of those mountains (even on the „livable scraps” – sounds great, doesn't it, by the way?), and the Elves quite officcially have the northern third sealed up.
As for the dwarves, they have a huge dwarven homeland. Can you show me the orc or lizardfolk homeland which is comparable in size, worth, recognition and life expectancy?

Reptilia seems to be doing pretty well for itself, judging by the state of their ambassador and spy network. As for the orcs, we know next to nothing about them or their situation except that they dont show up very often. Redcloak indicates that theyre able to enter human lands though, and weve seen that stable and loving relationships between orcs and humans do happen with, apparently, minimal questions.

[Ionathus]

We did see Durkon being oppressed by insensitive humans in On the Origin of PCs, just not to the point of them actively trying to kill him.

This isn't a point for or against any argument, just a clarification -- they were trying to get Durkon killed, because they asked Roy to watch for an opening in the upcoming fight to abandon him and let him be surrounded & then killed.

EDIT: Ninja'd by hamish

[Worldsong]

His party were actively trying to kill him - just in a fashion that "didn't get their hands dirty".

In addition wasn't one of the main reasons they didn't resort to straightforward murder that the paladin didn't want to risk falling?

[hamishspence]

We did see Durkon being oppressed by insensitive humans in On the Origin of PCs, just not to the point of them actively trying to kill him.

Maybe you're talking about everyone who "accidentally bumps into Durkon" because Durkon is short?

In addition wasn't one of the main reasons they didn't resort to straightforward murder that the paladin didn't want to risk falling?

Yup.

[Worldsong]

Reptilia seems to be doing pretty well for itself, judging by the state of their ambassador and spy network. As for the orcs, we know next to nothing about them or their situation except that they dont show up very often. Redcloak indicates that theyre able to enter human lands though, and weve seen that stable and loving relationships between orcs and humans do happen with, apparently, minimal questions.

No questions that anyone wants to ask, anyway.

[Ionathus]

In addition wasn't one of the main reasons they didn't resort to straightforward murder that the paladin didn't want to risk falling?

Yeah, I think that entire party was a pretty big parody of jerkass PCs and the mental hoops their players jump through to justify their actions -- the paladin especially! The other example that comes to mind is that they try to kill the orcs instead of negotiate with them only because it's less work. When Roy negotiates with the orcs, the party gets angry for the extra work that it means...as opposed to, y'know, valuing the inherent worth of people who are different than them, and treating their lives as worth something.

[Worldsong]

Yeah, I think that entire party was a pretty big parody of jerkass PCs and the mental hoops their players jump through to justify their actions -- the paladin especially! The other example that comes to mind is that they try to kill the orcs instead of negotiate with them only because it's less work. When Roy negotiates with the orcs, the party gets angry for the extra work that it means...as opposed to, y'know, valuing the inherent worth of people who are different than them, and treating their lives as worth something.

So that party basically represented the kind of players that Rich disapproves of and who he believes make up a large portion of the DnD community.

[Keltest]

No questions that anyone wants to ask, anyway.

Yeah, but i dont ask those questions about anybody's relationship. I dont need to know what theyre into when nobody is watching.

[Metastachydium]

Reptilia seems to be doing pretty well for itself, judging by the state of their ambassador and spy network.

You mean that little lump of barren land smaller than the Free City of Doom which is soon (and, in fact, next) to be invaded by the most powerful Western state actors in existence?

As for the orcs, we know next to nothing about them or their situation except that they dont show up very often. Redcloak indicates that theyre able to enter human lands though, and weve seen that stable and loving relationships between orcs and humans do happen with, apparently, minimal questions.

We know they sometimes get slaughtered en masse by adventurers (even if they don't look „uncivilised”). Their largest „polity” might be that island. (And yes, Worldsong is right: the little question of why orcs suspect that there is an ugly backstory behind every half-orc lingers there as well).

[Keltest]

You mean that little lump of barren land smaller than the Free City of Doom which is soon (and, in fact, next) to be invaded by the most powerful Western state actors in existence?



We know they sometimes get slaughtered en masse by adventurers (even if they don't look „uncivilised”). Their largest „polity” might be that island.

Humans also get slaughtered en masse by adventurers, so youre going to have to work harder than that. And Reptilia is a nation, whereas the Free City of Doom is, as the name suggests, a city. It certainly does not sprawl across the landscape like that, that would make Doom the largest population center in the world, bar none.

Also, the joke about the ugly backstory was just that: a joke. It was not unpleasant for the reasons that one would naturally assume.

[hamishspence]

Also, the joke about the ugly backstory was just that: a joke. It was not unpleasant for the reasons that one would naturally assume.

It was a nod to the fact that, in core D&D, the default assumption for the reason for a half-orc being born, is ugly.

[Keltest]

It was a nod to the fact that, in core D&D, the default assumption for the reason for a half-orc being born, is ugly.

Right, because in OOTS, orcs get along with the other races significantly better than in core D&D.

[Metastachydium]

Humans also get slaughtered en masse by adventurers, so youre going to have to work harder than that.

You know what? Let's do this one your way. There's two instances of good adventuring parties slaughtering or trying to slaughter orcs en masse in this comic. How many humans share this fate (i.e. the fate of getting slaughtered or getting picked for slaughtering by good-aligned parties) on panel?

And Reptilia is a nation, whereas the Free City of Doom is, as the name suggests, a city. It certainly does not sprawl across the landscape like that, that would make Doom the largest population center in the world, bar none.

Please do check the map I linked (strip no. 698., page no. 2, panel no. 1). Reptilia is literally smaller than the Free City of Doom (and yet a lot larger than it will be once the Empires conquer it, which is on their agenda).

Right, because in OOTS, orcs get along with the other races significantly better than in core D&D.

Source?

[Keltest]

You know what? Let's do this one your way. There's two instances of good adventuring parties slaughtering or trying to slaughter orcs en masse in this comic. How many humans share this fate (i.e. the fate of getting slaughtered or getting picked for slaughtering by good-aligned parties) on panel?

First off, the parties that wantonly slaughter orcs and what not are not good aligned. They claim to be good aligned, but know their behavior is inconsistent with that and try to fig leaf it.

Secondly, the Order kill a bunch of human bandits, as well as however many of tarquin's soldiers got slaughtered over the course of Haley's attempts to free the slaves and the climactic final battle against his army.

Please do check the map I linked (strip no. 698., page no. 2, panel no. 1). Reptilia is literally smaller than the Free City of Doom (and yet a lot larger than it will be once the Empires conquer it, which is on their agenda).

I did. I think youre misreading the map. The Free City of Doom is a city. It is surrounded by another nation, which is why it clarifies itself as the Free City.

Source?

Youre... joking, right? The majority of orc-human interactions have been positive, and theyre outright described by Redcloak as getting along with humans.

[Metastachydium]

First off, the parties that wantonly slaughter orcs and what not are not good aligned. They claim to be good aligned, but know their behavior is inconsistent with that and try to fig leaf it.

Both parties have a paladin, and therefore as far as the universe is concerned, they are good-aligned.

Secondly, the Order kill a bunch of human bandits, as well as however many of tarquin's soldiers got slaughtered over the course of Haley's attempts to free the slaves and the climactic final battle against his army.

I don't remember them killing any bandit other than the hangman, and that one was accidental. Haley's not shown to kill soldiers during those attempts, and the fight with Tarquin's soldiers during the battle is not quite the same thing as invading a „cool adventuring location and killing the monsters that live there.”

I did. I think youre misreading the map. The Free City of Doom is a city. It is surrounded by another nation, which is why it clarifies itself as the Free City.

That one is the only patch of land with no other name on it. I naturally assumed the area around it belongs to the Free City (cf. how Azure City had extensive holdings outside the city limits, or the Real Life Free City of Danzig was larger than the city proper). Regardless, Reptilia is small even by Western standards and calling it a lizardfolk homeland comparable in size, worth and life expectancy with the Elven or Dwarven lands is truly ludicrous.

Youre... joking, right? The majority of orc-human interactions have been positive, and theyre outright described by Redcloak as getting along with humans.

That's something that Redcloak says. He's no expert on orcs. As for the „majority of orc-human interactions” I can only recall one such interaction that was supposed to be positive, and that one was a case of a desperate fleet of refugees running thin on resources begging from whoever they could find once they realized they have no allies they can turn to (and no, they did not have the manpower to spare for an invasion of the island).

[Keltest]

Both parties have a paladin, and therefore as far as the universe is concerned, they are good-aligned.

I have a lot of things to say about how Rich chooses to portray paladins who pretend to be good in order to maintain their powers. Most of them are not complimentary, and certainly none of them belong in this particular thread.

[Jason]

His party, at least, were actively trying to kill him - just in a fashion that "didn't get their hands dirty".

No, they were trying to get him killed through their own inaction. It was a bit of a joke, see. They weren't actively trying to kill him.

[pendell]

LadyEowyn, are you reading this thread? This is why, as a rule, the oppressed have to be more righteous than a righteous god in order to make any progress towards resolving their issues. Because if you put up a spokesperson with Redcloak's issues, there are a lot of people who will dismiss his concerns outright, because he's untrustworthy and not acting in good faith.

This also explains why the oppressed frequently despair of civil disobedience and attempt armed conflict instead. The downside of this is, people who are militarily weak enough to be oppressed in the first place usually don't have the unaided strength to overthrow their oppressors. Instead, the oppressors just take any incidents which occur, no matter how innocuous, as evidence of the oppressed's "savage" nature and come down harder.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[The Pilgrim]

Redcloak isnt fighting the problem at all. Thats the thing. Again, as was called out in the past few comics, he isnt acting in the interests of goblins, he's acting out of his own need for justification for past actions.

Ding!

This. In a nutshell.

You mean the parts of SoD which weren't about Redcloak's life being screwed over horribly? Often without it being his own fault?

Part of when his life got screwed over horribly was when he donned the Crimson Mantle when he was an emotionally inmature person, got brainwashed by his EVIL GOD narrative, and has been stuck in it since.

The paladins gave him a push, he swallowed the whole bottle.

His little brother, who never got the direct brainwash treatment, eventually grew out of the narrative that perpetuates the cycle of violence.

That aside, having argued with Pilgrim I can tell that you that either you're interpreting everything he says too positively or I interpret everything he says too negatively, because to me his motivations seem to earnestly, honestly, genuinely, without a shred of attempted strawmanning, boil down to "I just hate Redcloak so goddamn much."

I can't hate Redcloak, he doesn't exists. He is just a villain character in a story.

That's the difference between you and me. You are pouring your personal stuff into the comic and interpreting everything according to your personal stuff. I am not.