OOTS #1214 - The Discussion Thread

[Worldsong]

Question: if Xykon's body is destroyed, do his spells stay in effect?

I'm guessing concentration spells would go away but anything which just has a long duration would run its course normally.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Oh, I have missed Xykon's presence in this webcomic. I started reading when 671 was the newest strip, and have been waiting for a genuine Order-of-the-Stick-member(s)-versus-Xykon throw-down ever since.

(However, I don't think Rich can possibly top Darth V's fight with Xykon.)

[goodpeople25]

Oh, I have missed Xykon's presence in this webcomic. I started reading when 671 was the newest strip, and have been waiting for a genuine Order-of-the-Stick-member(s)-versus-Xykon throw-down ever since.

(However, I don't think Rich can possibly top Darth V's fight with Xykon.)

Ooh when was that? Didn't know V during that time period ever had a fight in the comic.
Genocide, Murder and swinging their genitals around, sure. But a fight?

[greenfunkman]

This would be a good time for the major ally we were promised to show up. My money's still on Tiamat's lizards, one of whom can teleport, while tthe other should have at least 13 levels of cleric.

You mean these guys, right? -

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html

[Metastachydium]

You mean these guys, right? -

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html

Yup. That's them.

[dancrilis]

I assumed that people were more or less joking about Tiamat and the Lizard Wizard and Lizard Cleric reappearing but I am starting to think that people might actually be serious, so ...

Re: the "boss": Rich would not produce two lizardfolk capable of producing 5th level spells from the ether. The strip was obviously forshadowing. The Oracle could just as easily say that he hires these two himself. They could be working for him to ensure his survival. Why would Rich put in a line about a "boss" if they were not going to show up again. Rich would never do something like that. This must be forshadowing.

I love the certainty expressed here. The fun part is that Sunken Valley PM'd me to come back him up on this thread, and he is totally and utterly wrong.

The lizardfolk details are world-building, not foreshadowing. It's the first clue that in part of this world (the part that the Oracle hails from), lizardfolk can be civilized businesspeople engaged in long-term contracts, as opposed to most D&D worlds where they run around in swamps with crude spears. It's a sneak peak at what the Western Continent will look like when we get there: half human, half reptilian. That's it.

The Oracle says, "Say hello to your boss for me," because it's small talk, and he's being friendly. Given that the Oracle is usually a jackass, this in turn reveals something about his personality: He is friendly and jovial to fellow reptilians, but not to mammals.

In other words, Conservation of Detail is overrated.

I don't think they will be showing up again as major characters, nor do I think they were introduced as foreshadowing.

[Metastachydium]

I assumed that people were more or less joking about Tiamat and the Lizard Wizard and Lizard Cleric reappearing but I am starting to think that people might actually be serious, so ...

I don't think they will be showing up again as major characters, nor do I think they were introduced as foreshadowing.

But I like those lizards.
(Also, where's Jason to tell us that the Giant might be lying when I need him to do that?)

[bunsen_h]

It occurs to me that Vaarsuvius's premise for using the Familicide spell is faulty. Taking out all dragons who are blood-related, so that nobody would have a reason to go after their family again, has a fundamental flaw, of the "de kind vere ve keel everybody dot notices dot ve's killin' people" variety. Even without Tiamat's involvement, the remaining black dragons would be looking into how and why a quarter of their population abruptly died. And very likely doing something about it.

Hats would be lost.

[KorvinStarmast]

...the remaining black dragons would be looking into how and why a quarter of their population abruptly died. And very likely doing something about it.

Hats would be lost.

Yes, that's a logical 'in world' response once the various black dragons all over the world who are not related to the ABD slowly gather enough clues and tidbits to get an idea of how many other black dragons stopped sending Acidbreathmas cards, or no long drop into chat on Scalebook or Tailtwitcher ... but that takes time.

I think that Familicide's results are about a month old or so, on the in-world timeline?
Granted, Tiamat could 'spread the word'via her clerics, but that may also take a bit of time for the news to reach a critical mass such that
"We need to have an All Blacks (no, not rugby!) Dragon meeting because something seriously bad just happened to 'one of us' "
and so on.

Maybe a squadron of flying black dragons will figure into the end game as the result of such a meeting.

[dancrilis]

It occurs to me that Vaarsuvius's premise for using the Familicide spell is faulty. Taking out all dragons who are blood-related, so that nobody would have a reason to go after their family again, has a fundamental flaw, of the "de kind vere ve keel everybody dot notices dot ve's killin' people" variety. Even without Tiamat's involvement, the remaining black dragons would be looking into how and why a quarter of their population abruptly died. And very likely doing something about it.

Even ignoring the Black Dragons and Tiamat - we know that there is at least one Green Dragon was friendly with the family (panel 6), we also know that adoption is a thing in OOTS (panel 2).

As such non-blood family and friendship bonds could result in retribution and we know that there is at least one oracle that is comfortably to point people towards those they want to seek vengence on (panel 10).

Vaarsuvius dramatically increased the chance that someone else has already eaten their spouse and children (or will over the next few centuries) without warning or notification - and that person might be content in the knowledge that the elf will find out eventually and realise they are far far to late to do anything about it.

[hroþila]

I think "I need to keep my family safe" was just V's convenient rationalization, and that disproportionate retribution was their real motivation. They just wanted to wield as much power as possible to crush the ABD as thoroughly as possible.

That said, "let's stay the hell away from the wizard that was capable of wielding such destructive power" would not be an unlikely outcome even if any potential dragon avengers wanted to investigate.

[Worldsong]

I think "I need to keep my family safe" was just V's convenient rationalization, and that disproportionate retribution was their real motivation. They just wanted to wield as much power as possible to crush the ABD as thoroughly as possible.

That said, "let's stay the hell away from the wizard that was capable of wielding such destructive power" would not be an unlikely outcome even if any potential dragon avengers wanted to investigate.

Agreed on both accounts. I'm pretty sure that at that point Vaarsuvius was just power-tripping and rationalizing their desire to use their power against the first target they considered 'fair game'.

And given the scope of Familicide most black dragons are probably going to think that they don't want to get involved in whatever conflict involves genocide on a global scale. That's supernatural disaster levels of nope.

[Fyraltari]

I think "I need to keep my family safe" was just V's convenient rationalization, and that disproportionate retribution was their real motivation. They just wanted to wield as much power as possible to crush the ABD as thoroughly as possible.

I’d say that Inkyrius asking them to stand down and V refusing is meant to convey that.

That said, "let's stay the hell away from the wizard that was capable of wielding such destructive power" would not be an unlikely outcome even if any potential dragon avengers wanted to investigate.

Quest-giving NPC: Somebody just killed 1/4th of the entire black dragon population!
Epic adventuring group: Finally! A chance to get some XP!

[dancrilis]

That said, "let's stay the hell away from the wizard that was capable of wielding such destructive power" would not be an unlikely outcome even if any potential dragon avengers wanted to investigate.

And given the scope of Familicide most black dragons are probably going to think that they don't want to get involved in whatever conflict involves genocide on a global scale. That's supernatural disaster levels of nope.

I disagree - Black Dragons (and other dragons) are intelligent and wise creatures, when they heard about ~25% of there number got wiped out instantly with no warning or time to react (along with half dragons and dragon descendants) I think it is unlikely that thought 'better keep my head down' and more thought 'better find out what this is all about - where is the oracle of our people again', one could show up with a host of loyal kobolds, children, minions etc and get the full story pretty quickly with fairly limited risk.
Ignoring a threat like that would likely be unacceptable to many of them - and to many other dragons also (after all this might be a test run on some dragon killing superweapon).

[Rogar Demonblud]

In fact, as with TDO's plan with the Snarl, there would be a strong element of "get that *expletive* before that *expletive expletive expletive* comes after us."

[Doug Lampert]

It occurs to me that Vaarsuvius's premise for using the Familicide spell is faulty. Taking out all dragons who are blood-related, so that nobody would have a reason to go after their family again, has a fundamental flaw, of the "de kind vere ve keel everybody dot notices dot ve's killin' people" variety. Even without Tiamat's involvement, the remaining black dragons would be looking into how and why a quarter of their population abruptly died. And very likely doing something about it.

Hats would be lost.

It's worse than that. The ABD mentions that she was visiting her son's uncle when he was killed.

Her son's uncle....
That could be her brother, but then she'd say "visiting my brother".
It could be her sister's husband, not a blood relative unless there's another unmentioned relationship.
It could be her dead mate's brother, not a blood relative unless there's another unmentioned relationship.
It could be her dead mate's sister's husband, not a blood relative unless there's another unmentioned relationship.

Basically, there is no chance that the dragon she was visiting was hit unless unless there's another unmentioned relationship. The claimed relationship would leave him untouched and possibly pissed.

Additionally:
There was a mention somewhere of "that nice green dragon" her son might have mated with. Also not a relative.

The two dragons we know of that might conceivably want revenge were not hit by familicide. So, yeah, it was totally ineffective for the stated purpose and the sort of thing that results in lost hats. The only reason that Tiamat hasn't arranged for V to be very dead is that she blames the IFC instead.

[Quizatzhaderac]

She might have been referring to her brother using her late son's perspective. Not usual, but not unheard of.

In the case of her sister's husband: if they had a living child, the spell would kill the aunt, then the cousin, then the uncle.

In the case of her brother's husband: since they can't have biological children, the brother in law would be alive.

But yes, it does fall apart majorly by assuming black dragons only care about people that are directly related to them. Vaarsuvius did seem to be surprised that the Draketooth dragon was married.

[hungrycrow]

But yes, it does fall apart majorly by assuming black dragons only care about people that are directly related to them. Vaarsuvius did seem to be surprised that the Draketooth dragon was married.

Yeah, up until then, V saw dragons as monsters that only care about treasure hoards, and not as people.

[Lord Raziere]

Yeah from my analysis of the whole Familicide Incident in another thread, there is a strong theme of escalation. every time someone is responding to another person's revenge, the number of people targeted escalates higher:
First-1 young adult black dragon
Second-2 elf children
Third-one quarter of the black dragons on the planet
Fourth-five good dragons for every one killed by Vaarsuvius, demanded by Tiamat herself

its not about getting even, its about crushing someone else lower than when someone crushed you. Vaarsuvius is probably going to have a lot of trouble after this even if they do save the world.

Redcloak has a similar problem in that he escalated from his village being slaughtered to conquering an entire city in response. One wonders if his entire Plan is just his subconscious desire to get revenge on gods he never met and a world he hates.

[Fyraltari]

Redcloak has a similar problem in that he escalated from his village being slaughtered to conquering an entire city in response. One wonders if his entire Plan is just his subconscious desire to get revenge on gods he never met and a world he hates.

What do you mean "subconsious"?

[Lord Raziere]

What do you mean "subconsious"?

Yeah, I guess I'm being charitable with that.

[Riftwolf]

What do you mean "subconsious"?

It's his subconscious, conscious, and superconscious plan.

[Worldsong]

It's his subconscious, conscious, and superconscious plan.

Don't forget his ultraconscious.

[Schroeswald]

Don't forget his ultraconscious.

What about his uber-duper-super-giant-bigboy-conscious?

What do you mean half the reason I posted this was because it felt weird to not have posted in this yet, go away, its still funny, at least a little bit.

[Grey Watcher]

Quest-giving NPC: Somebody just killed 1/4th of the entire black dragon population!
Epic adventuring group: Finally! A chance to get some XP!

Man, are those guys going to be disappointed to discover who the final boss actually is. "A wizard 6 levels below us!? Are you kidding me!?"

[Cazero]

Man, are those guys going to be disappointed to discover who the final boss actually is. "A wizard 6 levels below us!? Are you kidding me!?"

"And not even fighting back, mumbling something about deserving it !"

[bunsen_h]

"And not even fighting back, mumbling something about deserving it !"

"It's a trap! Run away!"

[urbanwolf]

In the case of her sister's husband: if they had a living child, the spell would kill the aunt, then the cousin, then the uncle.

I think it would kill the aunt and the cousin, then the uncle, or kill the aunt, than the cousin and stop. iirc the spell dose two checks. First check kills all the people related to the target, then second check kills all the people related to the people killed in wave 1.
Targets that where killed in wave 2 do not trigger a third wave.

[Rogar Demonblud]

And anybody already dead serves as a circuit breaker for phase two.

[danielxcutter]

It has to go for longer than more than one wave and dead people don't break the spread either.

The Draketooth clan was wiped out by Familicide because they were all descended from a black dragon - who Blackwing noted had been dead for years by the present time. And the children stolen away served as connections to the innocent people, who were also killed, and then their family lines were destroyed as well. Rich did mention that if it'd been cast in our world it might have wiped out the entire human race.