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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Balancing Poor PHB Feats by Making Them Half Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimeryan View Post
    When this is all taken into account you can see how much your chosen variables skew the analysis. Try, instead: Level 6 (ASI + Feat vs ASI + ASI), Defence Style, AC 15 - see how that fares.
    So, using these, ASI+GWM with Greatsword had 8.8 DPR normally, and 13 when they had advantage.

    Compared with ASI+ASI with Greatsword, who had 8.8 DPR normally and 11 with advantage.

    Of course, once we start taking stuff that only triggers on a hit (BM maneuvers, Paladin Smites, Rage damage, feats such as Sentinel, etc) I'd say the marginal advantage of damage is still not worth it, and if you decide not to use GWM when intending to use any these abilities, then you're still handycapped by -1 to attack compared to the ASI, and you also now deal even less damage.

    I never said GWM is terrible. I'm sure there are situations where it's worth to use the -5/+10. But these situations become increasingly rare as the game progresses and your base damage increases. As such, I do not think them to be worth a full feat.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Balancing Poor PHB Feats by Making Them Half Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    So, using these, ASI+GWM with Greatsword had 8.8 DPR normally, and 13 when they had advantage.

    Compared with ASI+ASI with Greatsword, who had 8.8 DPR normally and 11 with advantage.

    Of course, once we start taking stuff that only triggers on a hit (BM maneuvers, Paladin Smites, Rage damage, feats such as Sentinel, etc) I'd say the marginal advantage of damage is still not worth it, and if you decide not to use GWM when intending to use any these abilities, then you're still handycapped by -1 to attack compared to the ASI, and you also now deal even less damage.

    I never said GWM is terrible. I'm sure there are situations where it's worth to use the -5/+10. But these situations become increasingly rare as the game progresses and your base damage increases. As such, I do not think them to be worth a full feat.
    The thing is, you picked probably the worst weapon to use with GWM. GWM/SS both inversely scale with the damage die of the weapon you're using - a Greatsword's 2d6 (avg. 7, 8.3 with Great Weapon Fighting) is way too high to get a decent benefit from the feat's tradeoff.

    In the hands of someone using a Glaive and PAM... the damage boost is way more noticeable.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Balancing Poor PHB Feats by Making Them Half Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    The thing is, you picked probably the worst weapon to use with GWM. GWM/SS both inversely scale with the damage die of the weapon you're using - a Greatsword's 2d6 (avg. 7, 8.3 with Great Weapon Fighting) is way too high to get a decent benefit from the feat's tradeoff.

    In the hands of someone using a Glaive and PAM... the damage boost is way more noticeable.
    So... You're saying we should use weapons that deal less damage so that the feat does comparatively more damage, but so that you still deal less damage overall?

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Balancing Poor PHB Feats by Making Them Half Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    So, using these, ASI+GWM with Greatsword had 8.8 DPR normally, and 13 when they had advantage.

    Compared with ASI+ASI with Greatsword, who had 8.8 DPR normally and 11 with advantage.

    Of course, once we start taking stuff that only triggers on a hit (BM maneuvers, Paladin Smites, Rage damage, feats such as Sentinel, etc) I'd say the marginal advantage of damage is still not worth it, and if you decide not to use GWM when intending to use any these abilities, then you're still handycapped by -1 to attack compared to the ASI, and you also now deal even less damage.

    I never said GWM is terrible. I'm sure there are situations where it's worth to use the -5/+10. But these situations become increasingly rare as the game progresses and your base damage increases. As such, I do not think them to be worth a full feat.
    I am presuming you used +7 to hit (+4 for Str, +3 for Prof.) against 15 AC for a required roll of 8 to beat, correct? +8 for two ASIs (20 Str), naturally.

    Fighters are, of course, the prime user of GWM due to many attacks and little to add to the damage of each attack otherwise - as well as the abundance of ASI/Feats on a SAD class. It should be noted that the AC will often be a lot lower than the mean for any specific CR due to using multiple lower CR monsters in the encounter rather than a single CR equivalent. Therefore, for a Fighter, the required roll to hit actually decreases (to hit increases, AC increases only on the higher CR monsters), and, with PAM for the extra attack, the added damage quickly adds up.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Balancing Poor PHB Feats by Making Them Half Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    The thing is, you picked probably the worst weapon to use with GWM. GWM/SS both inversely scale with the damage die of the weapon you're using - a Greatsword's 2d6 (avg. 7, 8.3 with Great Weapon Fighting) is way too high to get a decent benefit from the feat's tradeoff.

    In the hands of someone using a Glaive and PAM... the damage boost is way more noticeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimeryan View Post
    I am presuming you used +7 to hit (+4 for Str, +3 for Prof.) against 15 AC for a required roll of 8 to beat, correct? +8 for two ASIs (20 Str), naturally.

    Fighters are, of course, the prime user of GWM due to many attacks and little to add to the damage of each attack otherwise - as well as the abundance of ASI/Feats on a SAD class. It should be noted that the AC will often be a lot lower than the mean for any specific CR due to using multiple lower CR monsters in the encounter rather than a single CR equivalent. Therefore, for a Fighter, the required roll to hit actually decreases (to hit increases, AC increases only on the higher CR monsters), and, with PAM for the extra attack, the added damage quickly adds up.
    So, I now compared two lv 6 Fighters. One with a Greatsword (which is apparently a choice only superior to a piece of cardboard) who spent his two ASI on Str increase, and another one with 16 Str who uses a glaive with GWM and PAM, (because hitting for 1d4 is somehow a good thing now).

    Greatsword ASI+ASI: Average damage per attack is 8.75, two attacks per round average 17.5.

    Glaive GWM+PAM: Average 6.75 per d10 atk, and 5.55 per d4 atk, for a total of 19.05 damage over one turn.

    Again, extremely marginal gain. Hope you never intend to use another weapon (like a Javelin) or ever use an ability that costs you your Bonus action (like too many to count), or ever use an ability that grants extra attacks (like Action Surge or being level 11).

    GWM is - at best - an okay feat. Just like Medium Armor Master, I'm sure people will find some way to make it decent, but at the end of the day, the same can be done with any feat that's been mentioned in this thread.

    Edit/Addendum: I do think PAM is a good feat, and if the only way GWM is also a good feat is when it's used in conjuction with PAM, then it is a crappy feat.
    Last edited by heavyfuel; 2020-09-17 at 10:31 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Balancing Poor PHB Feats by Making Them Half Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    The thing is, you picked probably the worst weapon to use with GWM. GWM/SS both inversely scale with the damage die of the weapon you're using - a Greatsword's 2d6 (avg. 7, 8.3 with Great Weapon Fighting) is way too high to get a decent benefit from the feat's tradeoff.
    Yeah, somehow got the Greataxe as being 2d6 and the Greatsword being 1d12, rather than the other way around, d'oh!

    ~~~

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    So, I now compared two lv 6 Fighters. One with a Greatsword (which is apparently a choice only superior to a piece of cardboard) who spent his two ASI on Str increase, and another one with 16 Str who uses a glaive with GWM and PAM, (because hitting for 1d4 is somehow a good thing now).

    Greatsword ASI+ASI: Average damage per attack is 8.75, two attacks per round average 17.5.

    Glaive GWM+PAM: Average 6.75 per d10 atk, and 5.55 per d4 atk, for a total of 19.05 damage over one turn.

    Again, extremely marginal gain. Hope you never intend to use another weapon (like a Javelin) or ever use an ability that costs you your Bonus action (like too many to count), or ever use an ability that grants extra attacks (like Action Surge or being level 11).

    GWM is - at best - an okay feat. Just like Medium Armor Master, I'm sure people will find some way to make it decent, but at the end of the day, the same can be done with any feat that's been mentioned in this thread.

    Edit/Addendum: I do think PAM is a good feat, and if the only way GWM is also a good feat is when it's used in conjuction with PAM, then it is a crappy feat.
    I am getting different numbers to you:

    Using 15AC, 20Str, +3 Prof., 2d6 Greatsword:

    Required roll to hit = 7 <--- Str + Prof. = +8
    Chance to hit, therefore: 70% <--- 6 or below fails, so 1-(6/20) = 0.7
    Mean Damage on 2d6 = 7, Str Dam bonus = 5

    Therefore: 0.7*(7+5) = 8.4 per Greatsword hit
    Therefore: 8.4+8.4 = 16.8 damage over a turn

    ---

    Using 15AC, 16Str, +3 Prof., d10 Glaive, GWM, PAM:

    Required roll to hit = 14 <--- Str + Prof. = +6, GWM = -5, resulting in +1 to hit
    Chance to hit, therefore: 35% <--- 13 or below fails, so 1-(13/20) = 0.35
    Mean Damage on d10 = 5.5, Str Dam bonus = 3

    Therefore: 0.35*(5.5+10+3) = 6.475 per Glaive hit, and 0.35*(2.5+10+3) = 5.425 per PAM hit
    Therefore: 6.475+6.475+5.425 = 18.375 damage over a turn


    ---

    The resultant absolute difference on damage over the turn (1.55 on yours, 1.575 on mine), is still roughly the same. The relative difference is a little more different (8.86% vs 9.38%), but hardly by much. Wonder where the maths are different - did you use GWF? I find Defence to be preferably, myself, and of couse there is also Archery to shore up your ranged weakness - all three are valid options but only one disadvantages GWM.

    In any case, two points to make:

    1. No more ASIs can be put into Str on the non-GWM user. Fighters get a lot of ASIs. A primary ASI should compete with a strong feat; I don't think this means the feat is weak at all. Of course, once the Primary ASIs are used up GWM is competing not against +2 Str but instead against other feats - and it does very well, here.
    2. The AC here is for a single entity at CR appropriate level - this is quite uncommon in 5e, which puts more emphasis on multiple opponents of lower CR. Lets look at instead an AC 12 opponent:


    Using 12AC, 20Str, +3 Prof., 2d6 Greatsword:

    Required roll to hit = 4 <--- Str + Prof. = +8
    Chance to hit, therefore: 85% <--- 3 or below fails, so 1-(3/20) = 0.85
    Mean Damage on 2d6 = 7, Str Dam bonus = 5

    Therefore: 0.85*(7+5) = 10.2 per Greatsword hit
    Therefore: 10.2+10.2 = 20.4 damage over a turn

    ---

    Using 12AC, 16Str, +3 Prof., d10 Glaive, GWM, PAM:

    Required roll to hit = 11 <--- Str + Prof. = +6, GWM = -5, resulting in +1 to hit
    Chance to hit, therefore: 50% <--- 10 or below fails, so 1-(10/20) = 0.5
    Mean Damage on d10 = 5.5, Str Dam bonus = 3

    Therefore: 0.5*(5.5+10+3) = 9.25 per Glaive hit, and 0.5*(2.5+10+3) = 7.75 per PAM hit
    Therefore: 9.25+9.25+7.75 = 26.25 damage over a turn

    The damage difference now is fairly large.
    Last edited by Aimeryan; 2020-09-17 at 12:03 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Balancing Poor PHB Feats by Making Them Half Feats

    The primary problem with GWM is that it precludes the use of EA (outside Hexblade) and the style sucks. Which is why SS is just so much better it's not even funny. Archery Style + SS + XBE (or no XBE if the character is e.g. a Samurai) is just stupid-good compared to all the options on all levels especially once you add EA and even get to even out your Dex while you do it. Of course, it kicks in much later; GWM too shines more when you get your ASIs and can pick up both, GWM and max attack stat.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Balancing Poor PHB Feats by Making Them Half Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    The primary problem with GWM is that it precludes the use of EA (outside Hexblade) and the style sucks. Which is why SS is just so much better it's not even funny. Archery Style + SS + XBE (or no XBE if the character is e.g. a Samurai) is just stupid-good compared to all the options on all levels especially once you add EA and even get to even out your Dex while you do it. Of course, it kicks in much later; GWM too shines more when you get your ASIs and can pick up both, GWM and max attack stat.
    I have* a level five vuman samurai right now with SS and GWM. Started with S16 D14 C14, archery style (to shore up lower stat) and GWM, picking up SS at 4. I was going to go for mostly-str but stumbled into a set of gauntlets of ogre power, so will probably put the level 6+8 ASIs into Dex. I have no idea how optimal the build is (obvious If I'd know I should have started with the 16 in Dex), but being able to throw down an action-surge-made 4 -5/+10 attacks with advantage, regardless of whether in melee or fighting at range, definitely feels like the character is earning their keep within the party.
    *or had, depending on whether that campaign restarts, as a few key people don't want to do tele-gaming

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Balancing Poor PHB Feats by Making Them Half Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    I have* a level five vuman samurai right now with SS and GWM. Started with S16 D14 C14, archery style (to shore up lower stat) and GWM, picking up SS at 4. I was going to go for mostly-str but stumbled into a set of gauntlets of ogre power, so will probably put the level 6+8 ASIs into Dex. I have no idea how optimal the build is (obvious If I'd know I should have started with the 16 in Dex), but being able to throw down an action-surge-made 4 -5/+10 attacks with advantage, regardless of whether in melee or fighting at range, definitely feels like the character is earning their keep within the party.
    *or had, depending on whether that campaign restarts, as a few key people don't want to do tele-gaming
    Well, for optimality you can just take Crossbow Expert over GWM which enables using ranged weapons in melee without issue (and gives you the extra attack). Level 10 would see you at 20 Dex with SS and XBE, which isn't bad even though it's of course far from optimal. In general, while dipping in multiple styles can of course be done, the advantages of style switching are generally not up to the cost especially given how expensive feats are in this. So not optimal but of course it can be fun regardless.
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Balancing Poor PHB Feats by Making Them Half Feats

    Hi,

    Quote Originally Posted by dmhelp View Post

    I’m not sure about letting someone stack Elven Accuracy with another half feat though....
    I'm not sure what breaks. A character with EA will still probably want to boost some stat to 20, so combining the two feat-halves will either postpone that (or be postponed).

    But providing players more Feat options definitely increases the overall power level, though most of this comes from the original idea of turning bad feats into half-feats.

    Anyway,

    Ken

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