How Far Can We Optimize Bardic Music?

[Doctor Despair]

What's the world-record speed-eating champion eat at a rate of? And if we're REALLY gonna say "RAW or die!" then what's the statblock of a worm? Show it to me, in an actual rulebook.

Huh. It looks like worms don't exist in DND; there is mention of fishing hooks, but no mention of worms, at least based on a cursory search. I'd remembered there was fishing gear, so I thought it would mention the use of bait, but it seems everyone fly fishes (that's the term for fishing without bait, right?). The trick still works with any other more or less helpless creatures, such as toads, but that is interesting to see.

[Hiro Quester]

Again, find me rules that prohibit you from gorging yourself on worms. These are RAI assumptions you're imposing on DND, which is fine to do as a DM, but are not flaws with the process.

You can gorge yourself on worms (or rats, or toads, or vipers). The question is whether you can eat 4x your hit dice in 7 minutes.

the nearest comparison I can find is a pathfinder feat for Ogres:

Some ogres are able to quickly choke down even the largest of meals so they can get on with other business.


Prerequisites: Both Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple or the grab ability, ogre, size Large or larger.
Benefit: If you start your turn grappling another creature at least two size categories smaller than you, you can put the grappled creature in your mouth as a move action and attempt another grapple combat maneuver check (as though attempting to pin the opponent). If you succeed, you swallow the opponent as if you had the swallow whole special ability.

Note that for an ogre who invests a feat in being able to swallow big meals "even the largest of meals" must be two sizes smaller than the ogre.

Size and HD are not completely correlated. But a pile of rats, at 1/4 hit dice, is still 4(rats per hit dice)X20(HD eaten per HD gained)x21HD you want to gain), is 1680 rats you would have to eat in 7 minutes.

If an average rat is about a pound, that 1680 pounds of rats you would have to eat.

A least dusk giant (Medium) is roughly the size of a large, abnormally bulky human somewhat over 6 feet in height and weighing 300 to 400 pounds, but these figures both increase as it gains Hit Dice, even before it officially changes size. A lesser dusk giant (Large) begins at around 9 to 10 feet in height and weighs roughly 600 pounds.

So a 6HD Least Dusk Giant is medium sized, just over 6 feet tall, and weighs 300-400 pounds. Even to get to the 12 HD of a Lesser Dusk Giant, you would gain about 2-3 feet in height, and gain 200-300 pounds.

Gaining just those first 6 HD would require eating 480 pounds of rats; more than your own body weight.

No creature, without being specifically described as having this awesome ability, can eat more than its own bodyweight in 7 minutes.

Your best bet is still eating intelligent creatures (5HD/HD gained, instead of 20HD/HD gained). But your exalted bard isn't going to help you do that.

[Doctor Despair]

You can gorge yourself on worms (or rats, or toads, or vipers). The question is whether you can eat 4x your hit dice in 7 minutes.

the nearest comparison I can find is a pathfinder feat for Ogres:

Note that for an ogre who invests a feat in being able to swallow big meals "even the largest of meals" must be two sizes smaller than the ogre.

It lets Ogres emulate the "swallow whole" ability; it does not imply that this is all the ogre can eat. In fact, that isn't even necessarily all the ogre can eat in one round, especially if we are consuming creatures even smaller than that. As such, there is still no RAW limit on how many HD you are allowed to eat in one sitting.

Size and HD are not completely correlated. But a pile of rats, at 1/4 hit dice, is still 4(rats per hit dice)X20(HD eaten per HD gained)x21HD you want to gain), is 1680 rats you would have to eat in 7 minutes.

If an average rat is about a pound, that 1680 pounds of rats you would have to eat.

This is definitely the road to killing catgirls instead of following RAW, but I'll bite. Toads are also 1/4 HD, and they are diminuitive. The average toad is 3/4ths of an ounce, or a little less than 5% of a pound. That's 84 pounds for the entire set of HD based on your calculations, or about 12 pounds/minute. Definitely do-able, especially considering the dusk giant-bard grows exponentially as it eats, capping out at 20 feet tall and 12,000 pounds.

No creature, without being specifically described as having this awesome ability, can eat more than its own bodyweight in 7 minutes.

I'm not even certain that is barred in 3.5 for humans, but fortunately we don't have to do that.

[MERC_1]

This is definitely the road to killing catgirls instead of following RAW, but I'll bite. Toads are also 1/4 HD, and they are diminuitive. The average toad is 3/4ths of an ounce, or a little less than 5% of a pound. That's 84 pounds for the entire set of HD based on your calculations, or about 12 pounds/minute. Definitely do-able, especially considering the dusk giant-bard grows exponentially as it eats, capping out at 20 feet tall and 12,000 pounds.

This sounds more plausible in my opinion. But even if it wasn't getting a Persistent spell would give you all day to eat.

I find it very amusing that a very theoretical discussion of how to Optimize Bardic Music, turns into a discussion on how much worms you can eat in 7 minutes. Even the more realistic toads make me sick. But let's just eat that much frogs instead, with french fries, oyster sauce, ketchup and tabasco. You will need a giant barbeque and at least 2 chefs, but it could clearly be done.

Now eating 420 HD of catgirls, in 7 minutes, that's what I call a challenge!

[ben-zayb]

I find it very amusing that a very theoretical discussion of how to Optimize Bardic Music, turns into a discussion on how much worms you can eat in 7 minutes.

D&D in a nutshell. Can I please sig this?

[MERC_1]

D&D in a nutshell. Can I please sig this?

I'd be honored to be part of your signature!

[ExLibrisMortis]

I have to say I'm not convinced Music of the Gods is doing much at all. Yes, you can Inspire your undead friends and greenbound summons, but you can do that with Requiem and Green Ear, and with much less cheese. Your chances of affecting normally-immune creatures with bardic music that allows a save is often very low, and the effects aren't usually powerful enough to really matter anyway. If you want to cheese out your bardic music with epic feats, pick up Epic Inspiration and stack it with Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the White Raven, Words of Creation, inspirational boost, mwk war horn, and badge of valour to grant all allies +18d6 sonic damage to each attack and +18 to attack and damage rolls, all at level 8. Cast creaking cacophony while you're at it. Discourage enemy spellcasters by adding 100+ damage to each AoO they take.

As for Sublime Chord: yes, it's well known that it takes bard up a tier.

[NigelWalmsley]

As for Sublime Chord: yes, it's well known that it takes bard up a tier.

I don't know if I'd even really say that. You need to be a Bard to get in, but once you do Bard isn't bringing anything to the table. It's not like how being a Rainbow Servant gives you a bunch of spell knowledge because you are a Warmage. The best Sublime Chord build has 1 level of Bard, and would have zero if it was allowed to (Wizard 5/Bard 1/Incantatrix 4/Sublime Chord 1/Ultimate Magus 9).

[ExLibrisMortis]

I don't know if I'd even really say that. You need to be a Bard to get in, but once you do Bard isn't bringing anything to the table. It's not like how being a Rainbow Servant gives you a bunch of spell knowledge because you are a Warmage. The best Sublime Chord build has 1 level of Bard, and would have zero if it was allowed to (Wizard 5/Bard 1/Incantatrix 4/Sublime Chord 1/Ultimate Magus 9).

I agree that bard class features are somewhat outshone by Sublime Chord casting, but that only shows how SC takes bard up a tier, doesn't it? If you're a bard (or other tier 3 caster, sure) and take Sublime Chord, you (probably, almost inevitably) end up with a tier 2 build. That you can get more power by being a wizard instead of a bard is a given, but not really relevant to the SC-bard interaction.

[NigelWalmsley]

I agree that bard class features are somewhat outshone by Sublime Chord casting, but that only shows how SC takes bard up a tier, doesn't it? If you're a bard (or other tier 3 caster, sure) and take Sublime Chord, you (probably, almost inevitably) end up with a tier 2 build. That you can get more power by being a wizard instead of a bard is a given, but not really relevant to the SC-bard interaction.

I just disagree with the framing. It's like saying that Ur Priest makes Hexblade T2. Yeah, Hexblade/Ur Priest is T2, but Hexblade isn't doing any of the work there.