A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #691
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Ultimately, it's hard to judge before the work is completed. Maybe we'll look back at it one day and it'll be a great read. I admit that's a possibility. I think it would take a very talented author to get there from here though. Is Elli capable of that? Maybe. Some of her stuff is great. Some of it is pretty bad. I guess we'll just see.

  2. - Top - End - #692
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    and Chief himself wasn't much of a leader,
    That was why he was named and made Chief. He was chosen because he wouldn't be a very good leader. Because the alternative would have been the whole tribe going out in a blaze of glory. Glorious, sure, but also very much out.

  3. - Top - End - #693
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Ultimately, it's hard to judge before the work is completed. Maybe we'll look back at it one day and it'll be a great read. I admit that's a possibility. I think it would take a very talented author to get there from here though. Is Elli capable of that? Maybe. Some of her stuff is great. Some of it is pretty bad. I guess we'll just see.
    I do not hold out hope. Goblins is being completed slower than Berserk was.

    On the other hand, I suspect that with the characters higher level we'll get less breaks of extreme luck (which seems to be occasionally holding true), and that the writing will get better once they get out of this dungeon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
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    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  4. - Top - End - #694
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    I just noticed that this is the third time that the GAP must rescue a GAP member who is held captive and being tortured: first Vorpal, then alive Chief, and then dead Chief.

    Also, Chief is being held together with all of the other souls, so it would be another mass jailbreak like the one in Brassmoon.

    About writing quality, I was very surprised comparing the bad, self-indulgent writing of the last years with a money request for surgery that was later deleted from the blog. It was neatly written, and very clear. So, on one hand, the ability to do better is certainly there, but, one the other, it's not been seeping into the comic.

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    That was why he was named and made Chief. He was chosen because he wouldn't be a very good leader. Because the alternative would have been the whole tribe going out in a blaze of glory. Glorious, sure, but also very much out.
    Unless there was something new in recent strips, Chief was made chief because his dad was chief. Thac0 was more qualified, but a faction would have wanted Chief to be chief anyway, because his dad had been such a great chief, so, to avoid a civil war, Chief was made chief, while Thac0 went in exile. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/07142006 https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/02102006
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  5. - Top - End - #695
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    I do not hold out hope. Goblins is being completed slower than Berserk was.
    This comment led me to look up Berserk's status, only to discover that its creator died a few months ago.

  6. - Top - End - #696
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    New comic is up!

    Darn.
    VC XV, The horsemen are drawing nearer: The Alien and the Omen (part 1 and part 2).
    VC XVI, Burn baby burn:Nero
    VC XVIII, This is Heresy! Torquemada
    VC XX, Elder Evil: Henry Bowyer

    And a repository of deliciously absurd sentences produced by maddened optimisers in my extended signature

  7. - Top - End - #697
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    I forget, how much does she remember again?
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    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  8. - Top - End - #698
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    She shouldn't even know who Vorpal is. The only goblin she really interacted with was Chief. Also, her last information was that Minmax was going to find the goblins to kill Complains, so the assumption that he's now fast friends with them and will mourn their death 24 hours later is rather strange.
    Also, she claimed she can see everything her familiar sees, who was present when the goblins fell, so how come she doesn't know about that? I mean, it's not like she had much else to do while trapped in that room..
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  9. - Top - End - #699
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgaln View Post
    She shouldn't even know who Vorpal is. The only goblin she really interacted with was Chief. Also, her last information was that Minmax was going to find the goblins to kill Complains, so the assumption that he's now fast friends with them and will mourn their death 24 hours later is rather strange.
    Also, she claimed she can see everything her familiar sees, who was present when the goblins fell, so how come she doesn't know about that? I mean, it's not like she had much else to do while trapped in that room..
    She saw he was with the goblins with her familiar so thats why she knows about them. Also because Kore was talking about it when he broke the news about forgath to her. It is strange that she doesnt know about the trap they fell in. Maybe there is a distance limit on seeing through the familiar? Maybe she kind of forget due to the near death experience she just suffered from? Maybe she can only use its senses for so long before the effect wears off? Maybe our beloved author totally forgot about that part?
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

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  10. - Top - End - #700
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    To be fair, I also totally forgot that scene. I went back to re-read it and it was almost 3 years ago. Man, the pacing on this comic sure is great.

  11. - Top - End - #701
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    To be fair, I also totally forgot that scene. I went back to re-read it and it was almost 3 years ago. Man, the pacing on this comic sure is great.
    Too be fair its telling like three different stories at once, which really doesnt help the pacing any.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  12. - Top - End - #702
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Too be fair its telling like three different stories at once, which really doesnt help the pacing any.
    And that's after Dies Horribly's plot just evaporated. Forgath is still stuck with the cursed adventurers, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

  13. - Top - End - #703
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    And that's after Dies Horribly's plot just evaporated. Forgath is still stuck with the cursed adventurers, right?
    I checked. Last time we saw Dies Horribly was when Kilk died, right?
    11-23-2012.
    Nine yeasrs ago.
    Wow.

  14. - Top - End - #704
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cen View Post
    I checked. Last time we saw Dies Horribly was when Kilk died, right?
    11-23-2012.
    Nine yeasrs ago.
    Wow.
    That's pretty crazy. I've been reading Goblins since around 2006 or 2007 and in that time frame entire webcomics have been started and completed and I think Goblins has barely progressed.

    Honestly I wish I could stop caring but I've always struggled to let go of stories I'm invested in.

  15. - Top - End - #705
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    who-has-what-knowledge confusion aside, Minmax has some interesting emotional whiplash going on, and I think he's reacting pretty realistically. I don't love the drawing (I'm not sure if I've never seen her in a full-on side view while speaking before, but panel two looks very different) overall, but I like the journey the expression on MM's face goes through.

  16. - Top - End - #706
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I've actually always felt like Chief would be coming back in some form for partly these reasons. It doesn't make narrative sense to kill off a major character like him before their arc is done.
    When I first read through the entire archive, there was a Tempts Fate page mistakenly included inbetween the normal comic pages (not sure if that's still the case). It was a page where Tempts goes to hell and fights some demons?
    I read that before I knew who it was supposed to be, but he was green-ish and in hell so I assumed it was an interlude about what Chief was doing in the afterlife. I was confused for a long time why we had one page of Chief fighting demons and nothing else.

    Chief just being dead seems like a waste, in comparison. I'm pretty sure the author said somewhere she considered chief's arc to be done, though.

  17. - Top - End - #707
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    not everyone GETS a full story arc though. sometimes fate decides to cut your string before you can overcome your obstacles, dot all your I's and cross all your T's.

    Chief's death shows us that this world isn't pulling it's punches. Any one of the protagonists could die at any time. Big Ears' goal is to get the axe to hell. He could still die in the next page having never done that, and the story would need to instead be driven by other characters dealing with the consequences of that.
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  18. - Top - End - #708
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Chief's death still didn't feel earned to me. I'm all for a shocking death, but by the time it actually happened I wasn't surprised. What little impact it did have for me went out the window when Chief became a MacGuffin.

    Plus as had been said, it removed a point of view from the party. There's nobody who truly cares about tradition anymore, and while we have good evidence to believe that the goblin god doesn't care the traditions still hold valuable storytelling potential.

    Complains is in an interesting situation. Thanks to Chief and Angel McParentface he's now a Chief, but he's a Chief who tradition dictates cannot be remembered. This could easily cause conflict when the GAP returns to their clan, but I'm not sure any of the characters would even bring it up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  19. - Top - End - #709
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Too be fair its telling like three different stories at once, which really doesnt help the pacing any.
    Just another reason that adding a subplot where we follow Kore around as he loots the dungeon is terrible.

    I wonder if Elli is still using the "I'm just such a hard worker and perfectionist that I can only draw one page of art a month" excuse, or if she's finally admitted to herself that she's lazy. Regardless, I know it's a free comic and we have no right to complain, but the speed is objectively glacial. If she pumped out comics as fast as she does posts asking for money she could live off her patron alone.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2021-09-17 at 11:26 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #710
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I wonder if Elli is still using the "I'm just such a hard worker and perfectionist that I can only draw one page of art a month" excuse, or if she's finally admitted to herself that she's lazy.
    Procrastinating can stem from perfectionism.
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  21. - Top - End - #711
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgaln View Post
    She shouldn't even know who Vorpal is. The only goblin she really interacted with was Chief. Also, her last information was that Minmax was going to find the goblins to kill Complains, so the assumption that he's now fast friends with them and will mourn their death 24 hours later is rather strange.
    Also, she claimed she can see everything her familiar sees, who was present when the goblins fell, so how come she doesn't know about that? I mean, it's not like she had much else to do while trapped in that room..
    I consider naming Vorpal derpy writing meant to remind us that MM really was totes friends with his newfound Goblin soulmate, and his presumed death is affecting him.

    Derpy for two reasons -- their sudden friendship felt arbitrary (AND NOW THEY'RE FRIENDS!) and it's the sort of thing one would tell to himself (with a different expression), because I don't think MM has any reason to believe Kin actually knew Vorpal by name. As far as I remember, she just mentioned once that she once met heroic goblins. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/05172010 If the purpose had been to inform her, it would have made more sense to tell her Forgath was dead.

    But I liked this page otherwise. Although I would have expected some disbelief in MM's face in panel 2, as in, happiness, but also "good boy? What the heck is going on?"
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  22. - Top - End - #712
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    I consider naming Vorpal derpy writing meant to remind us that MM really was totes friends with his newfound Goblin soulmate, and his presumed death is affecting him.

    Derpy for two reasons -- their sudden friendship felt arbitrary (AND NOW THEY'RE FRIENDS!) and it's the sort of thing one would tell to himself (with a different expression), because I don't think MM has any reason to believe Kin actually knew Vorpal by name. [...]Although I would have expected some disbelief in MM's face in panel 2, as in, happiness, but also "good boy? What the heck is going on?"
    Both these criticisms strike me as based on fundamentally misunderstanding Minmax.

    That is: He's really dumb. And instinctively selfish. "Vorpal is dead" doesn't, in his view, matter to him--it matters and that's the end of the sentence, which everyone can be assumed to automatically understand. Kin addressing him like he's a dog doesn't bother him the way it would most people, because the gap between his intellect and that of a bright dog isn't all that big.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

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    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  23. - Top - End - #713
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Also tone of voice exists even if it is not conveyed by the comic, saying "X is dead" with a sad voice is fairly self explanatory as "I am sad about X having died" even if you have no idea who that is. Though yeah it did make me think about how little she knows about the situation.

  24. - Top - End - #714
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Both these criticisms strike me as based on fundamentally misunderstanding Minmax.

    That is: He's really dumb. And instinctively selfish. "Vorpal is dead" doesn't, in his view, matter to him--it matters and that's the end of the sentence, which everyone can be assumed to automatically understand. Kin addressing him like he's a dog doesn't bother him the way it would most people, because the gap between his intellect and that of a bright dog isn't all that big.
    It sounds about right, with MM being too dumb to understand the difference in registers when talking to a man or a dog, and not smart enough to understand that other people have different, uhm, "knowledge pools". To tell the truth, MM never convinced me much from this point of view, maybe because, when he was introduced, he was inventive, boisterous instead of idiotic, and could be quite the critic of other characters. Compare the MM in the episode starting here to the one we have now. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/09302005

    When he shows up in Brassmoon, I think, the transformation has already happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  25. - Top - End - #715
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    It sounds about right, with MM being too dumb to understand the difference in registers when talking to a man or a dog, and not smart enough to understand that other people have different, uhm, "knowledge pools". To tell the truth, MM never convinced me much from this point of view, maybe because, when he was introduced, he was inventive, boisterous instead of idiotic, and could be quite the critic of other characters. Compare the MM in the episode starting here to the one we have now. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/09302005

    When he shows up in Brassmoon, I think, the transformation has already happened.
    He is a total idiot in those early comics. His great inventive plan for the goblin camp was for him to slaughter the goblins himself, become the king of everything and watch two sexy women make out. It makes sense his personality has changed considering the crazy stuff he has been through, but he is still quite stupid. Also, those early comics get confusing because at the time the author was still playing with the "This is a game of D&D with actual players controlling characters" aspect so there was quite a bit of ooc action and talking.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Minmax isn't all that dumb. In fact, he's demonstrated that he can be quite clever and solve problems through lateral thinking.
    That's certainly much brighter than a dog. Admittedly, it is somewhat incongruous with his behavior in other situations. The best in-universe explanation I can come up with for that is that he is actually fairly bright, but in most cases is too lazy to apply his brains.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgaln View Post
    Minmax isn't all that dumb. In fact, he's demonstrated that he can be quite clever and solve problems through lateral thinking.
    That's certainly much brighter than a dog. Admittedly, it is somewhat incongruous with his behavior in other situations. The best in-universe explanation I can come up with for that is that he is actually fairly bright, but in most cases is too lazy to apply his brains.
    He is good at combat. He traded literally everything he could to get better at fighting, so being good at thinking in a fight scenario makes sense. I mean, the dude traded his ability to whistle for a +1 iirc. Also I dont think he can even dress himself. Remember dealing with the entrance to the maze of many? He spent like 5 rounds staring at the glowing sword while kin rhapsodized over his focus only for his final decision being, "Im gonna pee on it." And "penis go boom" was the only way kin could make him understand why that was a bad idea. Minmax is not smart. Yes he isnt as dumb as a dog, but thats not a high bar to clear.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    He is a total idiot in those early comics. His great inventive plan for the goblin camp was for him to slaughter the goblins himself, become the king of everything and watch two sexy women make out. It makes sense his personality has changed considering the crazy stuff he has been through, but he is still quite stupid. Also, those early comics get confusing because at the time the author was still playing with the "This is a game of D&D with actual players controlling characters" aspect so there was quite a bit of ooc action and talking.
    The "plan" was actually a joke to screw around with Forgath, as MM reveals in the following page; that's why I linked that episode, it shows him being smart enough to understand how to get people riled up. It's kinda the opposite of the current situation, where there apparently is an uncrossable chasm that stops him from understanding other people's positions.

    I have wondered about the player vs MM thing, but that's still how the character was when he was introduced, and for quite a while after that.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Minmax is "RPG" stupid. Players are notoriously bad at simulating somebody of vastly different intelligence from themselves, and Minmax is a parody of that (or, alternatively, the result of it applied to writing). He's the kind of character that one minute will be drinking from a puddle of slime on the ground, and the next creating a complex battle plan because the player put all those points into combat, so he sure isnt going to squander them all by being an idiot who gets himself killed swording at a wall while archers are shooting at him.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Minmax is the world's biggest idiot, but he wasn't quite that dumb. He's missing a lot of knowledge, including at least some basic knowledge of how to interact with others, but they doesn't mean he's completely lacking in Ability to think

    I think the better comparison than 'dog' might be 'young child sticking a fork in the power socket to see what happens'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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