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  1. - Top - End - #511
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Of course that still brings to question why a computer isnt able to put the pieces together as to why it doubts what it has been told. As an android data doesnt have a subconscious, he has a memory bank that he can either access or he can not. So either he noticed something was wrong or he didnt. If he did he would know what was wrong.
    The missing data of course. Logic says to believe the "vulcan", the information he has says "this is unusual", but since he doesnt have all the information, he cant logically and correctly then make the connection to "therefore it is wrong." Human emotional responses tell us to skill that and take a gamble on it, but by strictly logical reasoning, if you cant actually demonstrate that something is wrong, you cant really say its wrong.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  2. - Top - End - #512
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    The missing data of course. Logic says to believe the "vulcan", the information he has says "this is unusual", but since he doesnt have all the information, he cant logically and correctly then make the connection to "therefore it is wrong." Human emotional responses tell us to skill that and take a gamble on it, but by strictly logical reasoning, if you cant actually demonstrate that something is wrong, you cant really say its wrong.
    You can still do a wide analysis of various possible scenarios and estimate their probabilities based on the given knowledge of this and previous situations. Lack of subconscious would not prevent an android from not taking all the input at face value as over the years Data surely has encountered contradictory inputs often enough. He surely learned how to deal with imperfect information and is capable of solving abstract problems.

    Besides even with current technology we can train a neural network to detect lies.
    In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.

  3. - Top - End - #513
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    as emotional beings, i think humans just can't understand what "no emotions" is.

    i mean packbonding is a thing for a reason. i used to treat my humidifier like a hungry, whiny pet i had to feed with water every other day before it broke.
    So you think your humidifier had emotions because it needed to be refilled? Or what was the point of that anecdote?
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  4. - Top - End - #514
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    Chimera

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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgaln View Post
    So you think your humidifier had emotions because it needed to be refilled? Or what was the point of that anecdote?
    Pretty sure they're saying they ascribed emotions to their appliance because they anthropomorphized it and then couldn't mentally view it as not having emotions.

  5. - Top - End - #515
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    Draconi Redfir's Avatar

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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    Pretty sure they're saying they ascribed emotions to their appliance because they anthropomorphized it and then couldn't mentally view it as not having emotions.
    pretty much this. anyone who's seen the story of "stabby the Roomba on a starship" will get the general idea.

    or more generally, anyone who mentally assigned a personality to a stuffed animal or a toy as a child.
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  6. - Top - End - #516
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    I certainly think conceiving (and more importantly portraying to an audience) a truly emotionless sapient sentient character is no mean feat.

  7. - Top - End - #517
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    pretty much this. anyone who's seen the story of "stabby the Roomba on a starship" will get the general idea.

    or more generally, anyone who mentally assigned a personality to a stuffed animal or a toy as a child.
    Even as a child, I was perfectly aware that my stuffed animals or other toys where not alive and had no inherent personality, even while pretending they did during play.
    I also don't attribute sentience, much less sapience to household appliances, computers or other devices. They are not alive and don't have motives for doing or not doing anything. They work the way they were constructed, nothing more or less. Judging from other people I know, however, I might be the odd man out here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    I certainly think conceiving (and more importantly portraying to an audience) a truly emotionless sapient sentient character is no mean feat.
    I agree.
    In addition, it's very easy for the audience to attribute emotions to an action even when it wasn't meant to be. Therefore it is important in writing such a character to regularly lay open the reasoning behind decisions and show that it is rational.

    This is the issue I have with the "you're his mother" argument. By any rational reasoning, she's not his mother. Ears is technically not even her "flesh and blood" as Pawlush claims, because horns are not made from flesh, and Complains specifically said that there is no blood in the horn (yes, I know, figure of speech, not to be taken literally). Appealing to her as Ear's mother is trying to evoke a purely emotional bond. That bond she just shouldn't be able to feel; and there's no rational reasoning why she would spare his life based on the mother argument; so why did she?
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  8. - Top - End - #518
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Vinyadan's Avatar

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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    I certainly think conceiving (and more importantly portraying to an audience) a truly emotionless sapient sentient character is no mean feat.
    Ears isn't emotionless though?

    (yes, it's a joke about conceiving).
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  9. - Top - End - #519
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgaln View Post
    so why did she?
    Again, despite what Elli has told us about angels, all evidence points to this angel having emotion (or having a response pattern which perfectly emulates it in outward display).

  10. - Top - End - #520
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    I suppose you mean like Jones?
    Yes, although I got the impression that Jones isn't really as emotionless as she supposedly is. Annie also did.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  11. - Top - End - #521
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    Lvl 2 Expert's Avatar

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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Of course that still brings to question why a computer isnt able to put the pieces together as to why it doubts what it has been told. As an android data doesnt have a subconscious, he has a memory bank that he can either access or he can not. So either he noticed something was wrong or he didnt. If he did he would know what was wrong.
    I agree. Not having a gut feeling, done right would be a pretty cool way to distinguish a robot character.

    It's not necessarily true for all, or even most robot characters, I mean, even Windows can encounter unexpected errors, but it's certainly not unreasonable to have a robot character with no "black box" part to their brain. All their thinking is conscious, so they always know why they're thinking what their thinking. They would probably be a little puzzled by both emotions and gut feelings. "What do you mean, you just know it's wrong?" The robot can tell if something doesn't add up, but they'll be able to tell what doesn't add up.

    The second difference between human subconscious and robots as we imagined them before we started working on things like self driving cars is that everything the robot does is based on hard logic, while our subconscious is more fuzzy logic based. A single braincell can weigh dozens or hundreds of factors, each counting as a positive or a negative with their own weight and their own signal strength, resulting in a single outcome that changes in real time as the factors change. It's a very efficient way of taking everything together. So I'd say that it is at least somewhat plausible that a pop culture android gets confused by situations where you would usually go off of many different small subconsciously noticed clues. Like reading the mood in a room. You see lots of different facial features and expressions, but you can still draw an overall conclusion and because of that pinpoint outliers. That wouldn't be a weird task for Data to fail at. Reading a single spy that he's actually focusing on trying to figure her out? Less likely.

    But you know, even if one episode gets something "right"/does an interesting thing the next can take another route. 90's tv writing is inconsistent like that. It's like trying to pinpoint what that Klingon martial art Worf practices looks like. That's one of the reasons these shows got better with the seasons, when the actors were getting more comfortable about standing for what their character would do.
    Last edited by Lvl 2 Expert; Yesterday at 02:15 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #522
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgaln View Post
    That bond she just shouldn't be able to feel; and there's no rational reasoning why she would spare his life based on the mother argument; so why did she?
    Unfortunately, this one boils down to a simple OOC explanation, regardless of how eloquently people try to argue the IC explanation.

    Because the author wants to (feel that).
    Call me Laco or Ladislav (if you need to be formal). Avatar comes from the talented linklele.
    Formerly GMing: Riddle of Steel: Soldiers of Fortune

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