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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    i think it might just be a case of people not KNOWING you can declare yourself a class. both the Goblins and the Monster group didn't know you could do that, it took Vorpal's extreme out-of-the-box thinking to even come up with the idea. Both the Goblins and Monsters responded with a "Wait... you can do that?" when they heard about it.


    Human adventurers could be something else entirely. spending literal years training specifically to become adventurers, not realizing they could just declare themselves one and be done with it. Or perhaps for them it is, or is believed to be a feat reserved for those who have a "Player" (Something referred to as akin to a family lineage) that others can't obtain. If you're not born with one, then you can't become one.
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  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    I dont know if anyone has ever read the mercedes lackey 500 kingdoms series of books but the general gist is The Tradition is a magical power that pervades everything where if your life starts to resemble a classical fairy tale this force actually bends reality around you to make it happen. So if you are a young girl and your father dies after remarrying, you may find yourself living a cinderella life because your stepmother will start making you do the chores instead of HER daughters until you are basically the unpaid servant of the family. So on and so forth.
    I've read it. It's a great series. On a side note, it especially sucks if the one thing in your life that does not resemble the fairy tale is the person who would take the role of your heroic rescuer. In the case of Cinderella, for example, if the local royal heir is a child, a woman, or already married, and therefore unable to meet the tale's qualifications of "a handsome bachelor prince".
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  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas View Post
    I've read it. It's a great series. On a side note, it especially sucks if the one thing in your life that does not resemble the fairy tale is the person who would take the role of your heroic rescuer. In the case of Cinderella, for example, if the local royal heir is a child, a woman, or already married, and therefore unable to meet the tale's qualifications of "a handsome bachelor prince".
    Well... in that case you simply fall into tracks of a different story.
    In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas View Post
    I've read it. It's a great series. On a side note, it especially sucks if the one thing in your life that does not resemble the fairy tale is the person who would take the role of your heroic rescuer. In the case of Cinderella, for example, if the local royal heir is a child, a woman, or already married, and therefore unable to meet the tale's qualifications of "a handsome bachelor prince".
    True, but there are options as the main character of the first book learns since she was in exactly that position. In fact thats the entire point of it. That there are people like fairy godmothers and such who work behind the scenes to try and protect the people stuck in the bad fairy tales, and take care of people who are stuck in a scenario where they wont get a happily ever after, or even a true ending to their misery due to not everything lining up no matter what the tradition tries. And of course the evil ones who try to exploit the system as long as possible for personal gain. I just really like the entire premise of this universe.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

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    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
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  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    i think it might just be a case of people not KNOWING you can declare yourself a class. both the Goblins and the Monster group didn't know you could do that, it took Vorpal's extreme out-of-the-box thinking to even come up with the idea. Both the Goblins and Monsters responded with a "Wait... you can do that?" when they heard about it.


    Human adventurers could be something else entirely. spending literal years training specifically to become adventurers, not realizing they could just declare themselves one and be done with it. Or perhaps for them it is, or is believed to be a feat reserved for those who have a "Player" (Something referred to as akin to a family lineage) that others can't obtain. If you're not born with one, then you can't become one.
    There is a comic where two guardsmen are talking about how one of them "is going to do it onw of these days", become an adventurer and be done with this crummy job. The reason they don't do it is that the first three levels are lethal, you're very likely to die trying before you get rich. So at least among humans there seems to be the connotation that picking a class means going on an adventure. Of course, all the monsters were fighting adventurers and such already anyway, so what's the difference?
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  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post

    Now I kinda want to see this explored. Declaring yourself a class works but few people do it because they know the law of the world is once you do your odds of death climb even higher than they do without class levels. Its kind of like a curse on reality here. I dont know if anyone has ever read the mercedes lackey 500 kingdoms series of books but the general gist is The Tradition is a magical power that pervades everything where if your life starts to resemble a classical fairy tale this force actually bends reality around you to make it happen. So if you are a young girl and your father dies after remarrying, you may find yourself living a cinderella life because your stepmother will start making you do the chores instead of HER daughters until you are basically the unpaid servant of the family. So on and so forth. This world is much the same. You can declare yourself a class and get the abilities instantly added on, but in exchange you are now an "adventurer" so quest hooks and random encounters are going to appear before you and good luck avoiding them.
    Can't say I have read that series, but I have read the Indexing books by Seanan Mcguire, which have a very similar premise applied to the modern world. Narrative is real, it's recursive, and if you fall into a certain template of traits/actions, the Narrative will start warping reality to play out your Story. This is not just bad for you, but can be horribly lethal for everyone around you because the Stories follow Grimm logic instead of Disney logic - one example given is a Cinderella story triggering in a small town, and everyone except Cinderella herself proceeding to die of coma-induced dehydration before they're discovered. The protagonists are basically the Fairytale MIB, keeping Narrative incidents undercover and trying to minimize casualties caused by them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Can't say I have read that series, but I have read the Indexing books by Seanan Mcguire, which have a very similar premise applied to the modern world. Narrative is real, it's recursive, and if you fall into a certain template of traits/actions, the Narrative will start warping reality to play out your Story. This is not just bad for you, but can be horribly lethal for everyone around you because the Stories follow Grimm logic instead of Disney logic - one example given is a Cinderella story triggering in a small town, and everyone except Cinderella herself proceeding to die of coma-induced dehydration before they're discovered. The protagonists are basically the Fairytale MIB, keeping Narrative incidents undercover and trying to minimize casualties caused by them.
    Yeah sounds pretty close. Though im assuming you meant sleeping beauty for everyone to fall asleep? But yeah, in this series, an evil witch could move into a town, plant a garden and wait for a pregnant woman to get cravings so the foolish husband steals from her, setting up the rapunzel storyline. She gets to drain magic from the entire process growing stronger and the tradition will just KEEP throwing princes at her till one of them succeeds so this could go on for decades before she gets chased off or possibly killed. Unless the fairy godparent type people spot it and move in to provide assistance.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Fox is just an adventurer, right? Not a PC? She explicitly wanted to determine herself and was on a collision course with laws and expectations, so it isn't strange that she became one, even as Grem finds it disgraceful.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    yeah, Fox, the GAP, and the Monsters are all monsters with adventuring levels. Only Forgath, Minmax, the Drow Trio (and various incarnations, possibly including Bowst and co) have been explicitly labeled has having a player-lineage.

    Sarl caine, Goblinslayer, Kore, and possibly Bowst and co MIGHT have player-lineages. though it's not explicitly stated.
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  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    The GAP is made up of PCs though, or at least Vorpal is Goblins - 09/02/2005 (goblinscomic.com) and Goblins - 02/03/2006 (goblinscomic.com)
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  11. - Top - End - #191
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Yeah sounds pretty close. Though im assuming you meant sleeping beauty for everyone to fall asleep? But yeah, in this series, an evil witch could move into a town, plant a garden and wait for a pregnant woman to get cravings so the foolish husband steals from her, setting up the rapunzel storyline. She gets to drain magic from the entire process growing stronger and the tradition will just KEEP throwing princes at her till one of them succeeds so this could go on for decades before she gets chased off or possibly killed. Unless the fairy godparent type people spot it and move in to provide assistance.
    Yeah, sorry, Sleeping Beauty. The 'fairy godmother sort of angle applies to the Index Bureau's agents, who are often recruited from averted or broken stories because it makes them immune to being reality-warped into a different role. The main character/lead agent is a Snow White, for instance- she has corpse pale skin and constantly fights a heroin-level craving for apples, because eating one would put her in a coma. But she can confront a Peter Pan without being turned into his Wendy.

    They try to 'break' stories before they can fully form by sending them off the rails, and if that fails, guide it along a variant that causes the least harm - for example, resolving a Goldilocks story by having the girl swear to never steal again, instead of having her torn limb from limb as a warning to other thieves.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2020-11-23 at 03:08 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    It's all speculation. The life of a goblin isn't really all that long anyway, since they just wait around in war camps to get slaughtered by adventurers, so why not make yourself a bit tougher? Also, the fact that war camps are a thing suggest that there are are, in fact, dedicated newbie zones for leveling up. They aren't even allowed to use magical items, for crying out loud.

    Then there are some that go out to do dangerous things. If you are going to search the deadly dungeon anyway, wouldn't it be better to do it as an actual adventurer? Wouldn't it be better for a few war camp members to become adventurers when being attacked, as opposed to staying super weak and dying?

    Then there are the magical items, one decent magical item can be just as strong as turning into an adventurer in the first place, and all the deadly dungeons also seem to have rewards. Hell, that Maze of Many dungeon apparently will always eventually allow for success, so that should be a common grinding spot.

    I'm not convinced by the idea that things are innately more dangerous for an adventurer, as opposed to anyone else. Could be adventurers just look for danger, and are more likely to find it, or to fight back instead of running and hiding. Fox managed to live a fairly normal life in between her adventurers, until she was captured. The only thing stopping anyone, as far as the narrative goes, is that they either don't know they can do it, or they think it's wrong to do so.
    Last edited by tomaO2; 2020-11-23 at 04:08 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    I think the issue you're running into here is that the comic used to be a lot more about jokes (Deciding to be a player character on a whim for example) and is now much more serious.

    There is also all the conflicting stuff around what a "Player" means. On the one hand we have the drow characters who seemed to be played straight up as players playing a game, and then we have Ellipsis declaring that the concept of a player is actually sorta like a lineage because physics.

    Everyone is struggling with that because it fundamentally makes no sense when you try and reconcile what we're shown in the comic with what we're told by the author IRL.

  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven View Post
    Everyone is struggling with that because it fundamentally makes no sense when you try and reconcile what we're shown in the comic with what we're told by the author IRL.
    In my experience, often when reading something really interesting, an easy way to ruin it for yourself is to learn more about the author's word of god opinions about their own work.
    It is not always the case, but it is a risk that I think is only worth taking if you're already very confident in the author or you feel there is nothing else left to explore.

    In other words, I don't think we have to let the author dictate anything he/she has not stated within the work we enjoy.

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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    This whole "there are no players" thing is a retcon anyways. If player characters were not controlled by players, then it would have come up YEARS ago. Why would Elli not have corrected bad impressions during the first, book, or the second, or when Minmax kissed Forgath?

    Meanwhile, all this speculation on who have players. Were the GAP being played? Dies Horribly's group done by players? Is Kore a high level player? Questions, questions, questions, with no comment from the author. Then, one day, a mention that there are no players in the first place?

    I don't know why she decided to make this shift, but it just caused a lot of confusion, and frankly ruined a lot of the fun for people interested in that thing. For example, there was couple cool youtube videos that showed what the various adventures might have looked at from the player side of the board. Good stuff.

    It was something that didn't need to be said. Just a waste to throw that in. Would have been fine early on, but doing it so late in the game just doesn't come across as being respectful to the worldbuilding, and community, that came beforehand.
    Last edited by tomaO2; 2020-11-25 at 02:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by BaronOfHell View Post
    In my experience, often when reading something really interesting, an easy way to ruin it for yourself is to learn more about the author's word of god opinions about their own work.
    It is not always the case, but it is a risk that I think is only worth taking if you're already very confident in the author or you feel there is nothing else left to explore.

    In other words, I don't think we have to let the author dictate anything he/she has not stated within the work we enjoy.
    I think it also depends on the work (and the writer). Some works are based on very tightly defined teams and in-universe rules. I think it's very easy to break these. By comparison, works that mostly deal in verisimilitude, plot and a deep character psychology can become more interesting, if the writer sets out clearly all the things that were implied in the book (my favourite is how Tolkien explained Denethor's vision of himself and Gondor).
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  17. - Top - End - #197
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  18. - Top - End - #198
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    I cant decide if i like or hate this angel. On the one hand, i identify with her "its just my job, i dont really want to be here" attitude so much since i work the alcohol register at the store im at. On the other hand, she's and angel. She should be taking this at least a little bit more seriously.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I cant decide if i like or hate this angel. On the one hand, i identify with her "its just my job, i dont really want to be here" attitude so much since i work the alcohol register at the store im at. On the other hand, she's and angel. She should be taking this at least a little bit more seriously.
    She probably should. Keep in mind that she was tasked with this job as a punishment and she did admit she is a bit high at the moment, which does say something about her overall work ethics.

    That being said Complains is fully justified to feel how he feels right now. This is precisely the key issue goblins and many other monster races are facing.
    In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.

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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    For a moment I thought she was going to say "What is this? Are you attacking me right now? Or you doing a Cirque du Soleil impression?"

    Unnecessary summersaults for the win!
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Wonder why the update wasn't posted on her twitter account.

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    I'll admit the angel is losing a bit of the charm from when she questioned Vorpal, and I do have sympathy for Complains' viewpoint. Still, we need the fight. How else will they be able to get the angel horn that will help them survive against the demons when they go to hell in a few hours?

    Interesting to note that Complains seems to be completely over being upset with her though, for some reason. Like, he escaped during the middle of a rage, and he has some justifiable complaints on her actions but he immediately dropped them. From that I would assume she decided that she did something to placate him. Maybe something along the lines of helping him get away after proving his bravery by landing a hit on her?
    Last edited by tomaO2; Yesterday at 10:29 AM.

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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    For a moment I thought she was going to say "What is this? Are you attacking me right now? Or you doing a Cirque du Soleil impression?"

    Unnecessary summersaults for the win!
    Nothing unnecessary about them. That sword gets stronger the more tumbles he does. I think it can actually hit +7 if he does enough acrobatics.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Nothing unnecessary about them. That sword gets stronger the more tumbles he does. I think it can actually hit +7 if he does enough acrobatics.
    Oh, I completely forgot about that. Let me start over:

    "Unnecessary sommersaults for the win!"
    -Some enchanter, somewhere
    Last edited by Fyraltari; Yesterday at 12:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Nothing unnecessary about them. That sword gets stronger the more tumbles he does. I think it can actually hit +7 if he does enough acrobatics.
    If fighting games taught me anything, it is that jumps with a somersault are much longer. If he wanted to reach that angel he needed to tumble in air.

    I mean, Street Fighter and International Karate cannot be wrong, right?
    In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.

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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Perform flips to establish dominance.
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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Radar View Post
    If fighting games taught me anything, it is that jumps with a somersault are much longer. If he wanted to reach that angel he needed to tumble in air.

    I mean, Street Fighter and International Karate cannot be wrong, right?
    Double jump your way to victory! What you do is jump, then in midair you jump again!
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Double jump your way to victory! What you do is jump, then in midair you jump again!
    Friends do not let friends double jump. It's dangerous.
    In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.

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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Huh. Didn't notice until the sword, but, apropos of nothing, the angel has a trans flag colour scheme for her accessories.
    The stars predict tomorrow you'll wake up, do a bunch of stuff, and then go back to sleep.~ That's your horoscope for today.

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    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Oh wow, is this Elli's new avatar, since Minmax no longer fits her gender?

    (And if so, why do her avatars keep having such an adversarial relationship with goblins in general and Complains in particular?)
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  30. - Top - End - #210
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Oh wow, is this Elli's new avatar, since Minmax no longer fits her gender?

    (And if so, why do her avatars keep having such an adversarial relationship with goblins in general and Complains in particular?)
    Presumably because as the author she's required to do mean things to the protagonists.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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