Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

[tomaO2]

The description of angels is that they like souls that are are evil souls that have reformed. I'm surprised to see this angel be so happy to see someone that, I believe, has always been a good person.

Also, feels a bit weird to have the angel basically say lawful stupid. Obviously, she meant it in a more positive light though. Honestly, I've never seen Big Ears as being THAT much more moral than the other goblins. Like, yea, he has a few more rules, like no attacking the backs, and paying people for the stuff they sold, but I never felt that he really stood out all that much from the others. Not to the extent that he would be gushed over like this.

[Keltest]

The description of angels is that they like souls that are are evil souls that have reformed. I'm surprised to see this angel be so happy to see someone that, I believe, has always been a good person.

Why is it that surprising? Good souls are good souls.

[tomaO2]

That was the description we were given by Elli. Angels like eating the souls of reformed villains, and don't really care about people that have always been good, and it's not like the rest of the cast are evil, or anything, they are all fairly moral. Complains probably been the least of the bunch.

[Keltest]

That was the description we were given by Elli. Angels like eating the souls of reformed villains, and don't really care about people that have always been good, and it's not like the rest of the cast are evil, or anything, they are all fairly moral. Complains probably been the least of the bunch.

I mean, so? I dont look at a rabbit and think exclusively about them in terms of how much i would like to eat them.

[tomaO2]

The souls they like to eat are the ones that go to heaven. Everyone wants to go to heaven because being in heaven is a mutually beneficial relationship. It's an afterlife of peace and bliss for the mortal, while angels are happier being around the souls that are more delicious. The souls they allow into heaven are considered the cream of the crop, and the quality they find the most appealing is souls that have reformed from being villains. Meaning, they don't mind kicking lawful good souls into the in-between place. They are not the souls angels fawn over.

Keep in mind that eating your soul does not kill you. It actually improves you. Souls that are the more delicious are also simply the souls angels prefer to be around. Delicious refers to a host of characteristics. It's not that this kind of rabbit is more delicious to eat, it's cuter, it's got a personality that you like being around. It makes a better pet.

Angels find people that have always been lawful good to be a tad boring. Otherwise, they would be the first choice for going to heaven, which they are not.

Honestly, if I hadn't been told how angels view mortals, I would think this reaction was completely appropriate, but it just seems at odds with what I've been told, and I find it surprising that being extremely lawful good gives you some sort of affinity to angels. As far as I know devils don't care how evil you are. They just like mortals that are suffering.

[Anarchic Fox]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS]The souls they like to eat are the ones that go to heaven.

Um. Source? I thought the lore was that angels feed on happiness, while demons feed on anguish. Emotions, not actual souls. That's why we had the orc being resurrected endlessly down in that one dungeon.

Angels find people that have always been lawful good to be a tad boring.

In the current comic, the angel fawns over someone who has always been lawful good, lingering over the details of his character sheets so as to better savor them.

[Godskook]

Not going to lie, this comic annoyed me. Not because it's "cute", but because it.....just doesn't feel right. Feels like that "How do you do, fellow kids" meme. Worse than that, really, cause it's like twice-over. Dialogue feels overly....staged for normal modern real-world conversation, but instead of that, it's a conversation between a goblin and a goblin-Angel. Why would goblin society, such that it is, have cultural norms on that subject that so readily parallel our own, such that the first part makes sense, about how Big Ears is gay, and "oops", she outed him. Like....I get the historical context of why LGBT is viewed as a community in -our- modern world, but why their's? It wasn't even like this in other cultures in history. Some had **VERY** different ideas about sex and sexuality.

And worse......she calls him "stupidly lawful good". C'mon, this is telling, not showing, at it's finest, and it's not even a reference to anything epic or awesome Big Ears has done, just....labels. Could've easily said something like.....

"It wouldn't bond with a mortal unless that mortal did something....(reads sheet)....holy crap, you dueled a level X warrior to save your friends? That's awesome."

But no, let's use something that wouldn't even -be- on a normal 3.5 character sheet. (Maybe Minmax's sheet, but that's minmax's joke....)

[Anarchic Fox]

Why would goblin society, such that it is, have cultural norms on that subject that so readily parallel our own

Why shouldn't it? There's a lot of fun to be had in designing a society that's wildly different from our own, but you could also just shrug and focus on other aspects of worldbuilding. And if you're going by the Monster Manual goblins, we've already established that the Goblinsverse ones are a tad different.

C'mon, this is telling, not showing, at it's finest

Telling, not showing, at its finest.

But no, let's use something that wouldn't even -be- on a normal 3.5 character sheet.

There's no reason to think she's holding a normal 3.5-Ed. character sheet. Look at the information she drew on for Complains. Also, she's holding two sheets.

[Dragonus45]

The description of angels is that they like souls that are are evil souls that have reformed. I'm surprised to see this angel be so happy to see someone that, I believe, has always been a good person.

Also, feels a bit weird to have the angel basically say lawful stupid. Obviously, she meant it in a more positive light though. Honestly, I've never seen Big Ears as being THAT much more moral than the other goblins. Like, yea, he has a few more rules, like no attacking the backs, and paying people for the stuff they sold, but I never felt that he really stood out all that much from the others. Not to the extent that he would be gushed over like this.

I don't know, I think it's always been clear he was the most outright moral of the group. He just doesn't have the problem a lot of paladins get where they have some borderline evil party and the good/evil divide gets shown a lot. Instead the tension between him and the group has always been one of idealism/pragmatism.

Telling, not showing, at its finest.

You know, I still rather liked those info dumps as a way to handle a lengthy exposition in a limited update webcomic. Just get it done and get on with it instead of taking like three pages to either do a flashback or a bunch of expository dialogue. Not fit for everything but particularly appropriate in a D&D styled aesthetic.

[Anteros]

It's just pandering. "Wow, look how good you are! And you're gay! Gay people can be good! I'm an angel and also gay, further proving how gay people can be good!" While I obviously agree with everything said, it's done in a really cringe-inducing manner and feels more like virtue signaling than an actual attempt at creating representation.

I don't know, I think it's always been clear he was the most outright moral of the group.

Which is why it's cringey. Ears was already a good character if your goal is representation and to show a gay character who is pure good. He's easily the best person in the comic to anyone paying attention. Going over the top like this is what makes it feel like virtue signaling.

However, Elli's dialogue has always been clunky and bad like this, so...it's probably better to just chalk it up to good intentions with poor execution as usual.

[Draconi Redfir]

Why would goblin society, such that it is, have cultural norms on that subject that so readily parallel our own,

Just do what i do. imagine that the Angel can see just a bit of the fourth wall and is at least slightly aware of things in our world and that she's being observed. As such, some of what she says might be more directed at us then at the goblin she's reviewing.

[Dragonus45]

It's just pandering. "Wow, look how good you are! And you're gay! Gay people can be good! I'm an angel and also gay, further proving how gay people can be good!" While I obviously agree with everything said, it's done in a really cringe-inducing manner and feels more like virtue signaling than an actual attempt at creating representation.

Today, on bad take theatre!

Which is why it's cringey. Ears was already a good character if your goal is representation and to show a gay character who is pure good. He's easily the best person in the comic to anyone paying attention. Going over the top like this is what makes it feel like virtue signaling.

Or, and hear me out, it's a great way to contrast the way the angel has been responding to everyone else with a bit of exposition to explain the horn absorption thing, and I'm betting it will also add some humor when ears also fails the test and she has to pull the lever on him. Potentially also getting played for pathos in such a case. It might even just turn out to be a straight forward, heh, situation where Ears is the person who manages to understand themselves well enough to pass as an example of character building. Perhaps don't go off the deep end before we even see how things play out.

[Anarchic Fox]

It's just pandering. "Wow, look how good you are! And you're gay! Gay people can be good! I'm an angel and also gay, further proving how gay people can be good!" While I obviously agree with everything said, it's done in a really cringe-inducing manner and feels more like virtue signaling...

You cringed, I squeed. And my squee is worth more than your cringe.

Which is why it's cringey. Ears was already a good character if your goal is representation and to show a gay character who is pure good. He's easily the best person in the comic to anyone paying attention. Going over the top like this is what makes it feel like virtue signaling.

Going over the top like this, which is... introducing a second gay character, who speaks positively about being gay.

Or, and hear me out, it's a great way to contrast the way the angel has been responding to everyone else with a bit of exposition to explain the horn absorption thing, and I'm betting it will also add some humor when ears also fails the test and she has to pull the lever on him.

My guess is that Ears will answer a question wrong, but then the gargoyle will point out that he already answered a question correctly ("Did you fuse with my horn?!"), right as he entered.

[Willie the Duck]

'Pandering,' 'cringe-inducing,' 'virtue signaling,' 'representation,' 'over the top.' Well, that certain is a lot of buzzwords.

Regardless, Ears has been subtly shown as gay for a while now, and I think it being him and not anyone else has less to do with him being pure good and more to do with him being the most boring of the main goblin cast and this just being something else Elli can do with him. Seriously, he's a paladin, and he worries about whether he's doing the right thing and... he has big ears! Compared to Vorpal or the father-son dynamics of Thac0/Complains, or chief's insecurity, he just didn't have a lot of development. The angel being gay, that seems almost like it exists just to set up this joke (which I think, plot-wise, exists to bring the gargoyle into the conversation). Angel or not, she certainly hasn't been coded as one of the good guys or anything where her being gay is clearly beneficial to gayness somehow. Regardless, that's two gay characters in two decades and a cast of dozens of speaking roles, I'd hardly call the strip a wild celebration of gayness like the Walkeyverse or something. I'll be honest, the entire clocks/angel subplot seems kinda hackneyed. 'Everyone has to take their turn visiting the stoner angel so she can cast them into the pit for garbage reasons, but she's so bad at it you'll all manage to escape' isn't particularly interesting. This particular page, though, isn't a low point in that overall meh plot.

[tomaO2]

Um. Source? I thought the lore was that angels feed on happiness, while demons feed on anguish. Emotions, not actual souls. That's why we had the orc being resurrected endlessly down in that one dungeon.



In the current comic, the angel fawns over someone who has always been lawful good, lingering over the details of his character sheets so as to better savor them.

Right, angels feed on happiness, but they can't feed on someone's happiness unless they have a soul. Furthermore, there is a big difference between the ability of angels and demons to feed. Since everyone wants to be happy, it is very easy for angels to be full, which this angel already stated when talking to Vorpal. She is not feeding from Big Ears, if she was then he would be blissfully happy.

Since angels can feed on whomever they like, they are very selective on those they feed on, and the primary people they feed on are reformed evil doers. Unfortunately, I cannot find a link. Maybe is was in the forums? For some reason the forums got deleted. Or maybe I read it from those e-book links I posted awhile back? There are some e-books that went off on various subjects, like Vorpal's fumble chart, and the backstory of one of the dungeons. Could also be a tweet that was made... Not really sure how to do a search on twitter. I don't see the advanced search option.

Does anyone else know?


EDIT!


https://twitter.com/EllipsisGoblins/...63618719191040

Found a link to the the twitter explination.

As you might imagine, almost everyone would want to go to an angel's Heaven. This is why it so rarely happens. Angels have all the souls they'll ever need, so they don't take souls often. Think of it as trying to get into a packed nightclub. 7/
Ellipsis
@EllipsisGoblins
·
Aug 9, 2020
Just like how demons prefer innocent souls, angels prefer corrupt ones, or rather good souls who used to be evil. Pure, innocent joy is going be newer for someone who used to be a miserable, evil douche, so they produce the most intense, yummy joy. 8/

As you can see, it's not about being the most pure soul around, it's about reforming your evil ways. This needs to be posted in the wikia.




I also found another reference, which is actually posted in the wiki as well, that explains how this works.

Are Demons Evil Yes and no. Not having a soul means that demons are incapable of feeling empathy or friendship toward other demons or those they torture in their realm of fire and brimstone. It's this lack of empathy that has them betraying each other and conveying no sense of honour or compassion. Yet their cruelty always has a purpose. Demons by their nature, cause suffering in others because it's how they survive. A human who rips the wings off of a fly, simply to watch it flail about, does so without a purpose. A demon would never do something like this, simply because... well, why bother? Whether or not you think they're evil, they're undoubtedly horrible and scary.

Angels Angels also have no souls of their own and are a lot like demons. Though instead of feeding off of mortal suffering, they feed off of mortal joy. This is why they tend to help out mortals in need and produce "miracles". Angels don't really capture and collect souls, like demons do. This is merely because a captured soul is harder to keep happy. It's better to visit the prime material plane, create some kind of joy and move on. And just as a demon can't care one way or another about the mortals themselves, neither can an angel. They simply want to feed. Comic Notes Let's answer some questions I can imagine popping up from readers after reading this... 1. Complains of Names still has his soul. His soul was... erm... 'dented' a bit when he became part demon, but he's still got one. The full extent of his transformation will crop up in the comic at some point. 2. Yes, Big Ears saying "****", was him saying one of those words that sound like demonic but isn't. Swear words aren't actually evil, they just 'feel' kind of evil. So while a paladin can technically swear all they want, they tend to not want to do it much at all. 3. Yes, Not-Walter feeds off of suffering, too. I know. I try not to think about that, either. As always, thank you for everything.

The important part here is that angels don't actually care about the kind of person you are, just like demons. This page does NOT fit with established lore. Maybe someone can ask her about this?

[Traab]

It hasnt been subtle since the pillar that showed everyones personal lust and we got the fairly clear indication that goblins dont care about sexual orientation as much as they do about liking /cringe girls with HAIR on their heads! That said, it also hasnt been a factor, because why would it be? His sexual preferences havent had any bearing on the story because nothing to do with love has come up aside from minmax and kin. I can see both sides here as it DOES come across as kind of cringy to have an angel basically be your personal fangirl as they proclaim how awesome you are in every way possible, but the gay part is treated as a "Oh neat, me too" rather than a point of how awesome Ears is.

[Draconi Redfir]

*snip*

Have you ever thought that maybe this has nothing to do with her eating, and everything to do with her just being impressed at how stupidly lawful good he is?


The girl is admiring the Himbo. Let her admire the Himbo dangit.

[tomaO2]

As was stated in the quotes I took, the reason demons don't have empathy is because they don't have souls, which means they also do not have empathy. The entire difference in how they treat mortals is based around how they feed. Angels are not "good", any more than demons are "evil".

I even bolded this point.

And just as a demon can't care one way or another about the mortals themselves, neither can an angel.

They don't care how good you are. They are incapable of caring. Don't get mad at me because Elli wanted to toss out established canon to make her cute moment.

[Draconi Redfir]

being impressed doesn't have anything to do with empathy. I find it impressive that Genghis Kahn became the direct ancestor of 0.5% of the entire planet's male population. that doesn't mean i emphasize with the guy in any capacity.

i mean, it's ALMOST like the angel is a character with multiple facets and interests and not just a stomach that consumes emotion! Oh my gooooooodddd!!!!

[Anarchic Fox]

Thanks for the extra information, TomaO2.

[Kish]

I don't think Elli's tossing out canon. I think all the "aww, so cute" burbling is going to end at, "Now I come up with a question to ask you, and if you answer wrong I try to kill you," with no more hesitation than the previous two.

Hit the post button prematurely, sigh.

[JeenLeen]

I admit there's a way to see this as being outside canon, but I could see it as appreciating a neat flower. Humanoids are rarely stupidly lawful good enough to absorb an angel horn, so she's admiring reading about it. Sorta like a person into botany might enjoy seeing and reading about a rare flower, but they don't necessarily care in an empathetic way about the flower.
In fact, that she tells him (nicely but firmly) to be quiet and let her read shows she doesn't care about his feelings. She wants to enjoy him as an object, and doesn't want his questions interrupting it.

I just found the "hey, me, too" as a set-up for a very funny punchline. The angel's last line had me literally laughing out loud, which is relatively rare. This didn't seem to be overly or overtly pro-gay. (Big Ears does seem a little nervous about others knowing about his preferences, so maybe this is leading to some (in my opinion unnecessary*) "hey, we don't care, buddy" between him and the goblins... but I don't see him sharing a trait with an angel as catering. Just set-up for a joke.)

*the fact that none of this friends said anything when they saw the pillars let us know they don't care. It seems extraneous to focus on Big Ears accepting they don't care.

[Draconi Redfir]

i feel like Ear's nervousness about it might be less "What will other people think" and more "I don't like talking about my sexual preferences". I'm not ashamed about any of my preferences, but that doesn't mean i want to talk to people about them, even if they share the same preferences. Sometimes you just want to keep certain information private you know? The world doesn't need to know what you get off too, so it can be uncomfortable when that information is thrown out there without your consent.

[DataNinja]

(Big Ears does seem a little nervous about others knowing about his preferences, so maybe this is leading to some (in my opinion unnecessary*) "hey, we don't care, buddy" between him and the goblins... but I don't see him sharing a trait with an angel as catering. Just set-up for a joke.)

I mean, we basically already got that with the pillars. Nobody cared about Ears, it was all about the hair.

[Godskook]

Today, on bad take theatre!

But it's not a bad take. Just insulting an argument is fairly lazy. Also, before you get too defensive, nobody is complaining about the *opinions* involved here, just the writing.

I mean, we basically already got that with the pillars. Nobody cared about Ears, it was all about the hair.

Welp, we now have a point of contrast, that not only shows how bad the new page is, but also establishes that it's a plot hole, culturally. Neither the goblins nor minmax have any cultural hangups about homosexuality.

[Kantaki]

Welp, we now have a point of contrast, that not only shows how bad the new page is, but also establishes that it's a plot hole, culturally. Neither the goblins nor minmax have any cultural hangups about homosexuality.

Complains having a thing for girls with hair is obviously worse.
Kinda want to call Minmax a hypocrite on that one, considering he's into a snake-girl, but considering all those half-whatever* he's probably the norm for a human.

*half-elf, half-orc, half-dragon, half-fiend/celestial, half-ogre, half-ling, centaur...

[Godskook]

Complains having a thing for girls with hair is obviously worse.

I mean, that's a fairly straightforward compare/contrast scene, and Big Ears' preferences are -contrasted- with Complain's in how the group reacts to them. It's pretty clear messaging that there's a notable difference in how those two passions are treated, with Ears' being the normalized one of the two.

[Vinyadan]

For me, the thing about this page is that we already knew that Ears is gay, but this would have been a much better page for a reveal. This whole angel scene is about "who I am": Vorpal's chooses his own name but has to come to terms with the legacy of his old one, Complains becomes Chief, is challenged by the reveal of his potential, and rebels against his and his people's position in the universal scale. Yes, the pillars had the advantage of showing us the party's reaction. But this could be shown later. The only other thing from the lust pillars -- that Complains is into hairy women -- could be useful if he ever meets Fox, but it could have been mentioned in passing.

[tomaO2]

Speaking of Fox. I wonder how they are planning on working her into the Goblins Animated story. She's a pretty minor character, overall, and hasn't even met the GAP yet. Giving her a lead role in the animation suggests that there is pretty much no canon to work with. I'm pretty sure the only reason she got added is because Elli felt she needed more women, and she is the only other woman in the entire story that has a big enough role to be kinda workable with.

I admit there's a way to see this as being outside canon, but I could see it as appreciating a neat flower. Humanoids are rarely stupidly lawful good enough to absorb an angel horn, so she's admiring reading about it. Sorta like a person into botany might enjoy seeing and reading about a rare flower, but they don't necessarily care in an empathetic way about the flower.
In fact, that she tells him (nicely but firmly) to be quiet and let her read shows she doesn't care about his feelings. She wants to enjoy him as an object, and doesn't want his questions interrupting it.

Fair points, but that leads to my second issue. When I think about Big Ears... and I don't think he's THAT impressive. He's certainly got his points, but he hasn't really had to sacrifice much for his morality, he hasn't been overly selfless. Honestly, if we are talking about someone that has suffered for being good. That would be Vorpal. His act of wanting to bring back the doll to the elf girl was a completely selfless act to atone for injuring her, and he suffered greatly for doing so. Big Ears has also been talked into various actions, such as not saving Vorpal, and needing Complains to take the first leap before he followed. He did do a backstab when he needed to. I don't blame him for doing so, and I think it was the right move, however, it went against his code, showing he will break his code if the stakes are high enough.

I think the biggest act of good was when he scared off the town people to avoid killing them during the rescue, but that was him figuring out how to sidestep the moral dilemma, not making a choice on what to follow, his morals or his heart.

What has Ears sacrificed? What has Ears lost? What has being stupidly, absurdly, lawful good cost him? Not really too much. We also have to keep in mind that he became a paladin just a few days ago. I don't think he had to wrestle with big question of good or evil when he was just a normal goblin of the tribe. Plus there is that whole thing about it being him that broke the axe that will doom the world to hell. Honestly, I think the Angel should be commenting on this. Like, her bending the rules in order to help the people that are trying to save the planet seems like the sort of a thing an angel would do.

Despite all my objections though, I'm still kinda in favour the development. I'm not sure Ears should be getting this heal, and I don't think he deserves this level of praise, but I found the cutting off of his ears to be grotesque. I rate this as being the second most repulsive set of injuries I've seen from this comic. Coming in after the Chief death scene. A big part of me doesn't really care how Ears got better, as long as he got his ears back (yet another part reminds me that I don't think he should have been forced to cut his ears off in the first place. It was just a stupid dilemma that was used for more suffering).

I guess we'll see how she treats him during the trial.

[Draconi Redfir]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS]What has Ears sacrificed? What has Ears lost? What has being stupidly, absurdly, lawful good cost him?

His ears? Not many people can say they willingly mutilated themselves to save their friends.

His health? The dude tanked an explosion that was set to blow up an entire room. He was at like -9hp when that was over.