Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

[Willie the Duck]

Speaking of which, the new page is up.

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This reads very much like she doesnt necessarily know about the validity of the argument, but likes the idea and likes Big Ears, so she's going with it anyway.

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Yeah. This feels like punting on any deeper underlying philosophizing about whether Big Ears is now her kid or not (or the implications thereof), and papers over it with 'doesn't matter, she's tired and doesn't want to have that debate, and kinda digs the idea anyways (plus this gives her 'an out' to spare someone she already likes).'

[Radar]

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Yeah. This feels like punting on any deeper underlying philosophizing about whether Big Ears is now her kid or not (or the implications thereof), and papers over it with 'doesn't matter, she's tired and doesn't want to have that debate, and kinda digs the idea anyways (plus this gives her 'an out' to spare someone she already likes).'

I agree with that. She was already very much against sending Ears (and Fumbles for that matter) to his death, so this blood relation argument was at most a drop that tipped the scales. An excuse to do what feels right instead of what was lawfully expected of her. Plus, she is high at the moment, so there is not much room for complicated and detailed arguments anyway.

[Draconi Redfir]

why do we need to keep going back to "She's high" for every decision she makes?

I'm sure there is a lot more to the character then that one throwaway line like two encounters ago.

[Morgaln]

why do we need to keep going back to "She's high" for every decision she makes?

I'm sure there is a lot more to the character then that one throwaway line like two encounters ago.

So far she's acting like she's a ditz, high, or both. She's welcome to demonstrate that there's more to her character than that, but as long as she hasn't, putting down her behavior to just being high is actually the more charitable thing to do.

[Dragonus45]

Speaking of which, the new page is up.

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This reads very much like she doesnt necessarily know about the validity of the argument, but likes the idea and likes Big Ears, so she's going with it anyway.

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Yea that was my read, she seemed already personally interested the idea and saw this as as good of an opportunity as any other. Perhaps even a better one considering how hard it might be in setting for celestias like her to have a kid. Add on she seemed personally impressed by Ears to begin with.

[Draconi Redfir]

So far she's acting like she's a ditz, high, or both. She's welcome to demonstrate that there's more to her character than that, but as long as she hasn't, putting down her behavior to just being high is actually the more charitable thing to do.

So Kunk from Emporor's new groove is "Just high"?

Shaggy from Scooby doo is "Just high"?

The woman from Legally Blonde is "Just high"?

Charlotte from Princess and the Frog is "Just high"?


if your interpretation of a character boils down too "They're on drugs and that's it", then you might want to re-think a few things.

[Keltest]

So Kunk from Emporor's new groove is "Just high"?

Shaggy from Scooby doo is "Just high"?

The woman from Legally Blonde is "Just high"?

Charlotte from Princess and the Frog is "Just high"?


if your interpretation of a character boils down too "They're on drugs and that's it", then you might want to re-think a few things.

I mean, she's outright admitted that she's super high right now, so... Yeah. That genuinely is a lot of what we know about her character.

[Morgaln]

So Kunk from Emporor's new groove is "Just high"?

Shaggy from Scooby doo is "Just high"?

The woman from Legally Blonde is "Just high"?

Charlotte from Princess and the Frog is "Just high"?


if your interpretation of a character boils down too "They're on drugs and that's it", then you might want to re-think a few things.

I know none of those characters so I can't comment on that. Did any of them ever admit to actually having taken drugs like the angel did? However, I'm not interpreting her just as "on drugs." I'm allowing for her being high as an excuse that she is acting completely contrary to what we are told about her.
All her actions towards the goblins, namely asking them misleading, subjective questions, then trying to kill them when they don't answer they way she wants them to is classic trickster behavior. It's the thing you'd expect from mythological figures like Coyote, Anansi or Loki, to name a few. In D&D terms, that is chaotic neutral, yet the comic tries to proclaim her lawful good. At the same time, she's incredibly cheerful about the whole situation, which sends the message that she cares nothing about the the goblins she's condemning to death. Putting down her behavior to drugs is charitable in that I'm allowing for her behavior to not represent who she really is; otherwise she's a devious, callous, arrogant piece of poo that has no compassion for the goblins she's supposedly be an angelic representation of.

[Draconi Redfir]

I mean, she's outright admitted that she's super high right now, so... Yeah. That genuinely is a lot of what we know about her character.

By "Super high" you mean... A little?

Big difference there. And again, if those two words are ALL you've picked up on her in her entire time here... you've missed a bunch.

[Keltest]

By "Super high" you mean... A little?

Big difference there. And again, if those two words are ALL you've picked up on her in her entire time here... you've missed a bunch.

Maybe im just cynical, but if somebody says theyre "a little" high when directly confronted, i almost always read that as "im at about eye level with the ISS, but dont want to admit to it."

[Draconi Redfir]

sometimes you just gotta read things at face-value. looking for a deeper meaning behind everything is only going to get your head stuck in the dirt while the story passes by.

[Anonymouswizard]

By "Super high" you mean... A little?

Big difference there. And again, if those two words are ALL you've picked up on her in her entire time here... you've missed a bunch.

Yeah, I read that as 'I'm on something, but I've not taken a major dose recently'. I think there might be some confusion between 'acting angelic' and 'acting high' as well, I never actually read her actions as seeming as if they came from a place of intoxication. I know people who act in such a way without touching anything as well, so it could just be her natural personality.

[Dragonus45]

I know none of those characters so I can't comment on that. Did any of them ever admit to actually having taken drugs like the angel did? However, I'm not interpreting her just as "on drugs." I'm allowing for her being high as an excuse that she is acting completely contrary to what we are told about her.
All her actions towards the goblins, namely asking them misleading, subjective questions, then trying to kill them when they don't answer they way she wants them to is classic trickster behavior. It's the thing you'd expect from mythological figures like Coyote, Anansi or Loki, to name a few. In D&D terms, that is chaotic neutral, yet the comic tries to proclaim her lawful good. At the same time, she's incredibly cheerful about the whole situation, which sends the message that she cares nothing about the the goblins she's condemning to death. Putting down her behavior to drugs is charitable in that I'm allowing for her behavior to not represent who she really is; otherwise she's a devious, callous, arrogant piece of poo that has no compassion for the goblins she's supposedly be an angelic representation of.

Considering she is bound to the task for some unknown reason the task itself being generally against her nature doesn't mean much, heck the idea that what she has to do is grating to her is itself a potential extra layer of punishment.

[Radar]

By "Super high" you mean... A little?

Big difference there. And again, if those two words are ALL you've picked up on her in her entire time here... you've missed a bunch.

Her being high is not all there is to her, but it does make a hazy and not all that well conceived argument more compelling to her as her wits are dulled by whatever substance she is under influence of. Additionally, it nicely explains her incompetence and a serious level of detachment from the whole situation.

[Morgaln]

Considering she is bound to the task for some unknown reason the task itself being generally against her nature doesn't mean much, heck the idea that what she has to do is grating to her is itself a potential extra layer of punishment.

Which in turn would be an explanation for why she has taken drugs and is high; she needs it to be able to bear with doing something that is against her nature.
Of course the thing is: she is choosing the questions she is asking the goblins. It is completely in her own hands whether to ask something they could answer with a certain confidence or rather the kind of trick question that will almost certainly make them fail. She also called herself a mentor. A mentor is supposed to teach, not to kill, and a mentor is certainly not supposed to force the pupil into mistakes that gets them killed. So even if she is forced to do this task (the reason for which is not unknown; she broke a law. She told us that outright), the way she goes about it is completely on her own head, and she has not chosen a way that is either lawful or good.

[Vinyadan]

That's a good question, does she really choose the questions? If she doesn't, then this could be a terrible punishment for her, stranded in a demiplane to kill people she doesn't hate. But, if she does choose the questions, then this is all pretty screwed up on her side.

[Radar]

Which in turn would be an explanation for why she has taken drugs and is high; she needs it to be able to bear with doing something that is against her nature.
Of course the thing is: she is choosing the questions she is asking the goblins. It is completely in her own hands whether to ask something they could answer with a certain confidence or rather the kind of trick question that will almost certainly make them fail. She also called herself a mentor. A mentor is supposed to teach, not to kill, and a mentor is certainly not supposed to force the pupil into mistakes that gets them killed. So even if she is forced to do this task (the reason for which is not unknown; she broke a law. She told us that outright), the way she goes about it is completely on her own head, and she has not chosen a way that is either lawful or good.

She might be actually obliged to pick such trick questions, so no what is your favorite colour? cop outs. This is supposed to be her punishment after all, so she might not have all that much leeway here.

[Keltest]

That's a good question, does she really choose the questions? If she doesn't, then this could be a terrible punishment for her, stranded in a demiplane to kill people she doesn't hate. But, if she does choose the questions, then this is all pretty screwed up on her side.

It looked like she did based on how she had to fish for a good one for Complains.

[Morgaln]

The page where she picks the question for Complains tells us that she has a choice what to ask, although admittedly whe don't know if she is allowed to make up her own question or if she gets a list to select from. She does claim she's choosing them from the character sheet, however, which shouldn't have any questions on it. So it is strongly implied that she does make up the question.

In the case of Vorpal, she outright goads him into picking the wrong answer. I understand she was encouraging his personal growth, but there would have been ways to do that which didn't directly lead to her having to kill him.

[Radar]

The page where she picks the question for Complains tells us that she has a choice what to ask, although admittedly whe don't know if she is allowed to make up her own question or if she gets a list to select from. She does claim she's choosing them from the character sheet, however, which shouldn't have any questions on it. So it is strongly implied that she does make up the question.

In the case of Vorpal, she outright goads him into picking the wrong answer. I understand she was encouraging his personal growth, but there would have been ways to do that which didn't directly lead to her having to kill him.

If those questions were supposed to teach the goblins something, the teaching methods were... dodgy.

[Typewriter]

This whole room feels like DM BS to me. Failure being met with threats of character death but then handwaving the consequences because the DM was just trying to make you take something seriously.

[Vinyadan]

Having reread all of the angel strips, I can't really put the angel in this page and the bored "I won't help you because I'm not hungry" together organically (unless she really is doing this because she isn't sober). Maybe Thac0's turn will show some "glue" .

[Traab]

This whole room feels like DM BS to me. Failure being met with threats of character death but then handwaving the consequences because the DM was just trying to make you take something seriously.

I mean, its certainly the sort of thing a dm might include. Its a solo event, giving each member of the team a chance for some time in the rp spotlight, a puzzle to solve, and a death trap its possible to escape if you werent able to solve the riddle but are clever enough to think of a way. And some sort of prize at the end. Names got a stat boost, ears got fully healed and a race change, (plus a one use celestial summoning item which is fairly huge I think) I cant remember if vorpal got anything out of his chance or not. So yeah, its the sort of thing a DM would pull for certain. I mean, you would have to be a fairly sucky dm to give your players trick questions with no save auto death when they fail it setups. They need to have a chance, and these guys get two. Answer the question correctly, and if not, figure out how you could survive the trap. Everybody has a way, from class skills, persuasion checks, or that random item you got awhile back that hasnt seen much use.

[Draconi Redfir]

The page where she picks the question for Complains tells us that she has a choice what to ask, although admittedly whe don't know if she is allowed to make up her own question or if she gets a list to select from. She does claim she's choosing them from the character sheet, however, which shouldn't have any questions on it. So it is strongly implied that she does make up the question.

In the case of Vorpal, she outright goads him into picking the wrong answer. I understand she was encouraging his personal growth, but there would have been ways to do that which didn't directly lead to her having to kill him.

to be fair, she IS an Angel, a divine being (mostly) beyond mortal comprehation. "The gods work in mysterious ways" and all that.

Maybe questions as mundane as "how many toes do you have?" just don't come to mind for her, they're too simple too... mortal. She needs to ask life-changing questions because those are the only questions that actually make SENSE to her. It'd be like asking a normal human to look at their arm or something, it's not a question, it's just a thing. Anything less then "life-affirming/changing" might just be beyond her understanding.

[Dragonus45]

Yea looking a being who is literally a platonic ideal of concepts such as Law and Good might just not be able to understand how to halfass the questions. I do wonder if getting a little high and incapacitating oneself a little might manage though.

As for the "DM" in question, assuming I was running this I would be deliberately picking questions like this with the plan always being for escape to work as a tool to encourage RP when a character has to confront the ways they might be lying to themselves, or in Vorpal's case to get a moment where he gets to declare he is taking control of his own destiny and repudiating the name given to him by the fortune teller who only ever saw the failures in his future. This of course all assumes both a great party of RPers and that the situation is controlled from the start and not a DM flying by the seat of their pants.

[Morgaln]

to be fair, she IS an Angel, a divine being (mostly) beyond mortal comprehation. "The gods work in mysterious ways" and all that.

Maybe questions as mundane as "how many toes do you have?" just don't come to mind for her, they're too simple too... mortal. She needs to ask life-changing questions because those are the only questions that actually make SENSE to her. It'd be like asking a normal human to look at their arm or something, it's not a question, it's just a thing. Anything less then "life-affirming/changing" might just be beyond her understanding.

Actually, angels in the Goblins universe aren't divine. They are soulless beings incapable of experiencing emotions, who only want to feed. This comes straight from Elli. I've ignored this canon so far because it's somewhat contradictory to what we've seen of this angel, but if you want to quote her being an angel as a reason, you need to understand what being an angel means. When she says she's proud of Vorpal? She isn't. When she tells him she's sorry for having to kill him? She's not. When she does get angry or outraged at Complains for cutting of her horn or at Ears for fusing with it? She isn't, really. When she squees of being a mother? She doesn't care at all. She's not even lawful good; to quote from the lore: "And just as a demon can't care one way or another about the mortals themselves, neither can an angel. " You cannot be good without compassion for others. If you're indifferent to them, you're neutral.
What this means is that she is a complete fake. Everything she does? It's pretense. She acts as if she had emotions, but sometimes she gets it wrong. That's why her behavior is so erratic.

[Anteros]

Actually, angels in the Goblins universe aren't divine. They are soulless beings incapable of experiencing emotions, who only want to feed. This comes straight from Elli. I've ignored this canon so far because it's somewhat contradictory to what we've seen of this angel, but if you want to quote her being an angel as a reason, you need to understand what being an angel means. When she says she's proud of Vorpal? She isn't. When she tells him she's sorry for having to kill him? She's not. When she does get angry or outraged at Complains for cutting of her horn or at Ears for fusing with it? She isn't, really. When she squees of being a mother? She doesn't care at all. She's not even lawful good; to quote from the lore: "And just as a demon can't care one way or another about the mortals themselves, neither can an angel. " You cannot be good without compassion for others. If you're indifferent to them, you're neutral.
What this means is that she is a complete fake. Everything she does? It's pretense. She acts as if she had emotions, but sometimes she gets it wrong. That's why her behavior is so erratic.

Honestly, I'm much more inclined to just chalk that up to bad/inconsistent writing than anything else.

[Draconi Redfir]

idk about you, but Data from Star Trek TNG was also incapable of feeling emotions

he was perfectly fine when it came to being impressed with someone, missing someone, showing appreciation, disappointment, and other things that for him are just calculations of "Person spent time with is no longer here" and "Goal did not go as planned"

don't see why a divine entity wouldn't be able to do something similar. Sure she might not be able to fall in love, but the concept of being a "mother" could be appealing to her in the same way the concept of being a hive-mind is appealing to me. it's not something I'll ever fully accomplish or understand, but it's something nice to think about.

[Willie the Duck]

At the very least, we've already seen behavior from outsiders ostensibly similar to emotions. To me, this demon is scared, bargaining (knowing full well that it will get them nowhere), and otherwise acting very much in a similar contradictory-to-supposed-rules manner as out angel foil.

[Vinyadan]

There also was a side story where Grinnorarcen was shown to be utterly scared of puppets, which I think is an emotion.