Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

[Divayth Fyr]

Ah yes, nothing like a webcomic that already updates at a glacial pace spending one of its precious pages on a joke that doesn't add anything to it and will age poorly (and probably quickly)... At least some other webcomics willing to drop the plot in favor of such nonsense (that come to mind) have the one redeeming quality of updating far more regularly and often (hi LFG).

[Keltest]

Ah yes, nothing like a webcomic that already updates at a glacial pace spending one of its precious pages on a joke that doesn't add anything to it and will age poorly (and probably quickly)... At least some other webcomics willing to drop the plot in favor of such nonsense (that come to mind) have the one redeeming quality of updating far more regularly and often (hi LFG).

I mean, I laughed. A good bit, actually. I thought this page was genuinely really funny.

[Morgaln]

As someone who hasn't seen Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness yet: did that comic just spoil part of the plot? On second thought, don't answer that. I don't mind spoilers, but others might...

[Typewriter]

Ah yes, nothing like a webcomic that already updates at a glacial pace spending one of its precious pages on a joke that doesn't add anything to it and will age poorly (and probably quickly)... At least some other webcomics willing to drop the plot in favor of such nonsense (that come to mind) have the one redeeming quality of updating far more regularly and often (hi LFG).

What strikes me about it is the history of the justification for the comics pace being that Elle doesn't care about the slow pacing while it's written because she cares more about how it'll flow when it's all complete - it doesn't matter if it takes 10 years to write something that only takes a day to read if it's a good final product - but having a random strip with a random reference with a short shelf life feels contradictory to that justification.

[Anonymouswizard]

Ah yes, nothing like a webcomic that already updates at a glacial pace spending one of its precious pages on a joke that doesn't add anything to it and will age poorly (and probably quickly)... At least some other webcomics willing to drop the plot in favor of such nonsense (that come to mind) have the one redeeming quality of updating far more regularly and often (hi LFG).

I'm likely never going to see Multiverse of Madness, so to me this is already a wasted page. Which is a shame, this could have been a much needed recap, but there's too much focus on the reference to get the important parts in.

It could also have ACTUALLY EXPLAINED why Kin is now like five levels higher than she was a few hours ago. Although I wouldn't be surprised if that's in the September page, and this one was made just to ruin the pacing even more. What's worse is.that until the comic brought it up I wasn't questioning it.

[Daywalker1983]

At this point, it's as valid an interpretation as any.

For me, it's not struggling for a way to enjoy the comic so much as frustration that the pacing is just... terrible. Obviously, being here means being no stranger to comics sometimes taking a while to come out, but... like... honestly, something broke in me in the comic before the most recent one. A full-page glamour shot of a character with no background resolving a problem that had just been introduced in a way that made no sense... and then it sort of concurrently hit that this is also the... fifth? Sixth? Some number-eth dungeon crawl in which a bunch of strange rooms come one after another without any obvious thematic rationale between them. Sure, each one is visually distinct, but... what the heck is this place supposed to be? Who built it and why? Can anyone even remember why the main characters are in this dungeon in the first place?

And then you think about the fact that there are at least two supposedly important cast members who literally have not been seen in the comic since 2012, and it's just... this comic's pacing was not great when she was following a regular update schedule. Now it's downright interminable. And we just introduced another new cast member when the comic can barely keep up with the ones it already has.

The comic itself is fine. It's fun, the characters are fun, the art is nice, and so forth. But it needs to either start picking up the pace with each page or having pages come out faster, and that doesn't seem to be happening. Yes, you don't have to read the comic if you're not enjoying it, but the reasons for that lack of enjoyment are all around the text, not because of the text itself.

This is going to Sound rude, i dont mean it rude, but how can you square all of what you wrote with Ellipsis being an excellent artist? Because i agree with everything you said, but i actually feel like from pov of the craft of writing, maybe also drawing, she is a horrible artist. On a pure Level of the craft itself, goblins is hilariously Bad. The Comic for me lives off of it's ideas, and it's a constant struggle for me to See those squandered with every updatezand painfully dragging joke.

Aa for the latest Page: mm is dumb, but kin is not... How can she Let him break those Things? Gonna bite them in the ass...

[Daywalker1983]

https://twitter.com/EllipsisGoblins/...82520773971968

Spoiler

Show

In 2019, it was four or even three years left. Based on the output back then, it would have meant 72 to 144 pages. The tweet came out while the Goblins were using the Golem against Kore.

So any day now?

[Vinyadan]

Super weird page. It opens with a very dubious perspective in panel one, then we have a conversation through which the author seems to insist that Goblins did what Multiverse of Madness did, but earlier and better (and, possibly, is implying to be its inspiration).

On the other hand, this would be an unusually pleasant (for the reader) attitude of MM towards Kin. He isn't an abject idiot, his intentions are ultimately readable, he isn't in his wet sad puppy phase, and he isn't particularly irritating. Which unfortunately means that he isn't MM as we know him.

Then again, Kin "teaming up with an alternate of hers who broke reality and turned out to be evil" seems to explain the time we haven't seen her, and she shouldn't have been interrupted, or, at least, the last panel shoud have introduced her going into more detail. There's also the obvious question of whether she gave up on the jade teapot to look for MM.

So I'll say what I almost always feel about comic pages I don't like: it's overindulgent.

By the way, are we back to wondering how PCs are in contact with our world?

[Anteros]

Yeah...this is a bad page. I don't mind Minmax breaking the 4th wall occasionally but this is just bad and won't even make sense in a few years when MoM isn't fresh in everyone's mind. Over indulgent is the perfect description.

[Cygnia]

She's a better artist by using the qualifier that she's a better artist than me. That being said, she appears to be addicted to drawing misery and pain and that puts me off. Even the scenes where it's relatively sweet or funny, two or three strips later she comes in hard with the wangst for wangst's sake.

[BaronOfHell]

Yeah...this is a bad page. I don't mind Minmax breaking the 4th wall occasionally but this is just bad and won't even make sense in a few years when MoM isn't fresh in everyone's mind. Over indulgent is the perfect description.

From the PoV of someone who didn't get the reference at all.. to me MinMax was his usual annoying self, hindering Kin from explaining tales I think I would have enjoyed reading about.
What disappointed/surprised me was that Kin cared enough about the irrelevant name of the maze that she allowed those interruption.

On the other hand, I suppose the single many maze adventure (together with her birthday party) is a huge deal for her regarding her feelings towards MinMax ("seeing" each other), and in this sense, it's very important for her that MM does remember what happened.

[Traab]

I'm likely never going to see Multiverse of Madness, so to me this is already a wasted page. Which is a shame, this could have been a much needed recap, but there's too much focus on the reference to get the important parts in.

It could also have ACTUALLY EXPLAINED why Kin is now like five levels higher than she was a few hours ago. Although I wouldn't be surprised if that's in the September page, and this one was made just to ruin the pacing even more. What's worse is.that until the comic brought it up I wasn't questioning it.

I mean, we know why kin is higher level. That was the whole point to staying behind, to level grind with the maze hacked so they could farm levels and gear and whatnot and leave the instant they entered whole new beings.

[Anteros]

The only interesting thing on the whole page to me is that Kin called her alternates evil. That may have just been for the sake of the joke though.

[Kornaki]

The last update came out in June. THIS is what we waited for?

[Morgaln]

I mean, we know why kin is higher level. That was the whole point to staying behind, to level grind with the maze hacked so they could farm levels and gear and whatnot and leave the instant they entered whole new beings.

Of course that whole explanation was in 2013, so an actual recap would not have been amiss.

[-D-]

She's a better artist by using the qualifier that she's a better artist than me. That being said, she appears to be addicted to drawing misery and pain and that puts me off. Even the scenes where it's relatively sweet or funny, two or three strips later she comes in hard with the wangst for wangst's sake.

Just because she's a better artist than you doesn't mean she's good.

The Goblin art is very... lumpy. And line work is meh at best. And colors are usually flat and boring. Insistence on permanent scars just complicates things. I haven't seen this dedication to art complications since Erfworld and Signamancy.

Characters rarely feel like they have agency. Usually they just deliver joke, message of the day, or suffering.. I have no idea if they are roleplaying or actual people.

[Murk]

I think Ellipsis is a fine artist! Not a great one, but good enough.

Like, yeah the characters are lumpy, she only knows how to draw a few perspectives and action poses, and there are unnecessary commas in the writing, but it's of very consistent quality. And that's important for serial art. You know what you're going to get. The characters are recognisable and with a few exceptions the art is never ugly.

The art and writing is also very accessible. I know a lot of "better" webcomics, but those are all comics that really require my attention.
The art in Unsounded is gorgeous, but because of that I could never spend an entire afternoon reading it - too tiresome for the art glands. Similarly, I think OoTS is very witty and clever, and that too means that I'll be tired after a few pages. Goblins does very well for casual reading.

By now I'm just reading out of habit and disaster tourism, but I think the accessibility was very important in getting me started. It's the kind of comic that you can casually browse through and before you know it you're a hundred pages in.

All of that to say that you don't need to be a great artist to make a good webcomic, I guess.

[Typewriter]

No complaints about the art here, other than the fact that I personally prefer the style that she was using back around 2012. At some point, I think around 5-6 years ago, the art shifted and became slightly less... cartoony? Every now and then someone links to older pages and I'm always refreshed by the style.

[Lurkmoar]

Uh... a page about leaning on the fourth wall and taking a swipe at a Marvel movie?

A one off pun, ok. A full page?

[Anonymouswizard]

Uh... a page about leaning on the fourth wall and taking a swipe at a Marvel movie?

A one off pun, ok. A full page?

You're assuming it's only one page.

[Dragonus45]

Oof, pop culture references are clearly not Eli's thing. Interesting to waste a whole page on this considering what a scarce resource they are.

[-D-]

Most pop culture reference age like fine milk near a fireplace.

[Lurkmoar]

You're assuming it's only one page.

I'm a hopeful soul.

I just reread the latest page to make sure, they spent more time on a pop culture reference then explaining what happened with Kin and why it wasn't an arbitrary decision to have her show up looking for Minmax.

[Dame_Mechanus]

This is going to Sound rude, i dont mean it rude, but how can you square all of what you wrote with Ellipsis being an excellent artist?

It didn't sound rude at all, but the consideration is appreciated all the same.

Ellipsis has a distinct style, generally has a good sense of weight and motion in her drawings, is clearly willing to design interesting room layouts for things to take place in, and consistently draws characters on-model and recognizable. She also does a good job at adding environmental details and incidental actions in scenes that would otherwise just be two characters talking to one another with static framing. There's occasional moments of poor flow and unclear staging, but those are few and far between.

Writing and pacing, on the other hand... are another matter altogether. Both of which this update exemplifies. Not only did this page kill the pacing of the scene with the GAP (which was already pretty terrible, let's be real) it also kills the pacing of the reunion between Kin and Minmax while also completely failing to capitalize on literally anything that made their interactions fun and enjoyable in the first place. For a cheap pop-culture riff that doesn't even work.

Sheesh. Anyone remember Websnark? You Had Me And You Lost Me? I feel like I'm getting there.

[Anteros]

Yeah, the big complaints with the comic have always been the writing and the pacing. If I did have a complaint about the art it would be that sometimes it's more detailed than I'd like when Ellipsis is veering into particularly disturbing territory.

[Fyraltari]

My only real complaint about the art is the backgrounds.

There often jusy aren't any, with the characters just standing in shapeless color-gradients, which is very odd.

[Willie the Duck]

Yeah, the big complaints with the comic have always been the writing and the pacing. If I did have a complaint about the art it would be that sometimes it's more detailed than I'd like when Ellipsis is veering into particularly disturbing territory.

Writing, pacing, and the torture/misery-fixation seem to be the dominant complaints.

Writing and pacing, on the other hand... are another matter altogether. Both of which this update exemplifies. Not only did this page kill the pacing of the scene with the GAP (which was already pretty terrible, let's be real) it also kills the pacing of the reunion between Kin and Minmax while also completely failing to capitalize on literally anything that made their interactions fun and enjoyable in the first place. For a cheap pop-culture riff that doesn't even work.

Sheesh. Anyone remember Websnark? You Had Me And You Lost Me? I feel like I'm getting there.

The one valuable thing we got out of this is learning that MM is able to kid Kin a bit, which seems like a clue to where things are going with this (not with him on complete bended knee begging for forgiveness for the leash event, nor in complete 'I'm trying to grieve you, why are you here?' mode). So at least we're probably moving into explanation for why she is back, where the relationship (whatever it can be) is going to go, etc. Y'know, in 6-12 months or so.

I miss Websnark (and Wednesday). They were just small-scale enough and personal enough that they almost seemed like internet friends. I hope whatever they have gone on to doing has been fruitful and fulfilling.

[Neoriceisgood]

You'd imagine with an update pace similar to Goblin's, you'd want to make sure every page you post 'counts' as much as possible in terms of story progress ...

Well this page was never going to appeal to me personally as I'm not really into Marvel, nor into pop culture humor, but I'm honestly kinda stunned at the
choice to have a page of this nature to start with.

I guess on a more plot-relevant note, is the path they're on angled a bit or is the perspective of the art just a bit wonky?

[Traab]

Writing, pacing, and the torture/misery-fixation seem to be the dominant complaints.



The one valuable thing we got out of this is learning that MM is able to kid Kin a bit, which seems like a clue to where things are going with this (not with him on complete bended knee begging for forgiveness for the leash event, nor in complete 'I'm trying to grieve you, why are you here?' mode). So at least we're probably moving into explanation for why she is back, where the relationship (whatever it can be) is going to go, etc. Y'know, in 6-12 months or so.

I miss Websnark (and Wednesday). They were just small-scale enough and personal enough that they almost seemed like internet friends. I hope whatever they have gone on to doing has been fruitful and fulfilling.

Thats assuming this is even canon for their characters and wont be instantly forgotten about next update. This felt like a mix of in character and ooc talking.

[Dame_Mechanus]

The one valuable thing we got out of this is learning that MM is able to kid Kin a bit, which seems like a clue to where things are going with this (not with him on complete bended knee begging for forgiveness for the leash event, nor in complete 'I'm trying to grieve you, why are you here?' mode). So at least we're probably moving into explanation for why she is back, where the relationship (whatever it can be) is going to go, etc. Y'know, in 6-12 months or so.

True, but that's something that could be established effectively in, at most, a panel or two. I agree that it's good to re-establish their banter and make it clear that they have fundamentally picked up in mostly the same place but Minmax has grown a bit, but this doesn't even totally work for that because it doesn't feel like Minmax is actually talking so much as the writer is talking through him. (Made worse by the fact that the comparison being drawn doesn't actually work very well; it feels like noticing there are a couple of broad-strokes similarities and then working backward to try to make them feel more profound.)

It feels like a gag that might have worked if the comic had better pacing, but it doesn't, so it doesn't.

I miss Websnark (and Wednesday). They were just small-scale enough and personal enough that they almost seemed like internet friends. I hope whatever they have gone on to doing has been fruitful and fulfilling.

He seems to still be doing stuff as found from a quick Twitter search, I hope he's living his best life. (That being said, allusions to medical problems make me worried for him. But I worry a lot naturally.)