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    Omega Supreme's Avatar

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    Default Pc becoming a Demilich?

    How would I allow one of my players become a demilich? and how should I challenge this Demilich character in adventures? What kind of public places could he interact with?

    I have a PC who is a lvl 42 wizard and 5 archmage in an evil campaign. He has recently decided to ascend to more higher types of undead, however, I'm not sure how i should role play or proceed with him beginning a newfound transformation like the Demilich.

    Also, could he fuse with a skeleton body after his transformation and use it to help have a full body
    Last edited by Omega Supreme; 2020-09-15 at 11:18 AM.
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    Default Re: Pc becoming a Demilich?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    How would I allow one of my players become a demilich? and how should I challenge this Demilich character in adventures? What kind of public places could he interact with?

    I have a PC who is a lvl 42 wizard and 5 archmage in an evil campaign. He has recently decided to ascend to more higher types of undead, however, I'm not sure how i should role play or proceed with him beginning a newfound transformation like the Demilich.

    Also, could he fuse with a skeleton body after his transformation and use it to help have a full body
    He's a level 47 wizard. He can do whatever he wants to. Liches and demiliches can polymorph themselves and use magic to change form. He can be in whatever body he wants.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Pc becoming a Demilich?

    He can just shapechange or make a spell to give himself a body. Or make an epic spell for an awesome body. Phylactery transference keeps his gear reasonable. But he can just as easily just have his demilich part be the attached ribcage of a skeleton or somesuch.

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    Default Re: Pc becoming a Demilich?

    There are rules for creating a demilich in the ELH and on the SRD here: https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm

    TL;DR You need to already be a lich and craft 8 soulgems costing 120,000 gp and 4,800 xp each. You would also gain a total of +12 LA, 4 from Lich, and 8 from Demilich. I believe the Demilichs ECL is on a table in the ELH.

    An epic wizard could easily use magic like alter self or polymorph to gain a temporary body to interact with the plebians, but I don't know why he would bother. A demilich has at will telekinesis to manipulate objects and could easily snuff out nearly anyone who was giving him **** for daring to exist in a public place.
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Pc becoming a Demilich?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    How would I allow one of my players become a demilich? and how should I challenge this Demilich character in adventures? What kind of public places could he interact with?

    I have a PC who is a lvl 42 wizard and 5 archmage in an evil campaign. He has recently decided to ascend to more higher types of undead, however, I'm not sure how i should role play or proceed with him beginning a newfound transformation like the Demilich.

    Also, could he fuse with a skeleton body after his transformation and use it to help have a full body
    As long as he meets the requirements both mechanically and with some cool roleplaying why not. In terms of challenging him, lots of things are ummune to death attacks. Anything with a +4 armor enchantent called Soulfire (BoED). Also, remember that Demi-liches are only immune to spells that allow Spell resistance. An orb of X will still impact and affect a demi lich. Make said Orb Enhanced, Intensified, and fire, acid, frost, electrical admixtured for thounsands of damage... that should be able to do some dam. He can still also be turned by a sufficiantly high cleric... which if he's level 47 there are surely other around at his level too...
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

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    Default Re: Pc becoming a Demilich?

    The big issue with becoming a demilich, aside from gaining a sizeable level adjustment, is the amount of downtime it would take to craft the soul gems to make the transformation. The crafting cost of the soul gems is half the market value, and the time required to craft is 1 day per 1,000 gp of the item's market value.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zanos View Post
    You need to already be a lich and craft 8 soulgems costing 120,000 gp and 4,800 xp each.
    This cost sets the market value of a single soul gem at 240,000, meaning it takes 240 days to craft. Crafting all 8 and completing your transformation into a demilich will take over 5 years, unless the character has invested in efficient item creation which allows them to craft magic items ten times faster and drops the time requirement for the whole process to just over six months.

    As for challenging the charcter, there is a specific type of inevitable called a marut which specifically hunts down people who cheat death and attempt to deny the grave. The description says that anyone using unnatural means to extend their life or taking extraordinary measures to cheat death may become a target for a marut, so it wouldn't be surprising for one to be sent after a lich or demilich. Their base stats at 15 HD they are CR 15 so theoretically their challenge rating should be equal to their hit dice, with their advancement line allowing them to get as big as 45 HD. The extra 30 HD should give you plenty of bonus feats and a bit of extra equipment to hopefully actually pose a bit of a threat to the character.
    The act of creating a phylactery and becoming a lich is supposed to be something unspeakably evil, so in theory the act of creating eight soul gems on top of that to become a demilich should be about eight times as evil altogether. A character that high level is already going to be on the gods' radars without having to commit horrible attrocities to ascend to a higher level, so if a good deity was to learn that this character was in the process of becoming a demilich they would probably send a small army of angels or archons to try wiping the problem off the map. Since you're well into epic levels you will, again, be looking at the advancement line to see if you can scale anything up to come close to the wizard's level. If all else fails, the deities themselves might intervene.

    As for getting his body back after being reduced to just a skull, polymorph works. You may notice that the lich's immunity to polymorph effects specifies that they can sill polymorph themselves, but the demilich's immunities don't list this exception. It doesn't matter. There's a bit in the PHB about foregoing saving throws to voluntarily accept a spell's effect which says that even a creature with special resistances against magic can suppress this quality to accept a spell's effect, citing the elf's immunity to magic sleep effects as an expample. Even if the the demilich's immunity to polymorph effects doesn't specifically spell out that he can still polymorph himself, by RAW he is still able to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    Also, remember that Demi-liches are only immune to spells that allow Spell resistance. An orb of X will still impact and affect a demi lich... ...He can still also be turned by a sufficiantly high cleric... which if he's level 47 there are surely other around at his level too...
    Actually, neither of these would work. Demiliches have Old magic immunity, which makes them immune to all magical and supernatural effects regardless of whether they allow for spell reistance.
    Demiliches come from the Epic Levels Handbook which is a 3.0 sourcebook, making it much less forgiving than 3.5 content. All golems originally had the same magic immunity, but when the Monster Manual was updated to 3.5 they were rewritten to have New magic immunity which adds their vulnerability to spells that ignore spell resistance. There was an official 3.5 update to the Epic Levels Handbook, but this update didn't amend the demilich's or the epic-level golems' magic immunity. They still have the Old magic immunity, which is much more powerful than what we're used to seeing on the average iron golem.
    So they are fully immune to all magic and supernatural effects unless, as mentioned earlier, they willingly suppress their immunity to accept an effect. Turn/Rebuke Undead is listed as a (Su) ability, so demiliches are immune to being turned.

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    Default Re: Pc becoming a Demilich?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaern View Post
    The big issue with becoming a demilich, aside from gaining a sizeable level adjustment, is the amount of downtime it would take to craft the soul gems to make the transformation. The crafting cost of the soul gems is half the market value, and the time required to craft is 1 day per 1,000 gp of the item's market value.

    This cost sets the market value of a single soul gem at 240,000, meaning it takes 240 days to craft. Crafting all 8 and completing your transformation into a demilich will take over 5 years, unless the character has invested in efficient item creation which allows them to craft magic items ten times faster and drops the time requirement for the whole process to just over six months.
    Use a fast time demiplane and one or more dedicated wrights. He's in a campaign where there are level 47 casters, I assume this is standard.

    As for challenging the charcter, there is a specific type of inevitable called a marut which specifically hunts down people who cheat death and attempt to deny the grave. The description says that anyone using unnatural means to extend their life or taking extraordinary measures to cheat death may become a target for a marut, so it wouldn't be surprising for one to be sent after a lich or demilich. Their base stats at 15 HD they are CR 15 so theoretically their challenge rating should be equal to their hit dice, with their advancement line allowing them to get as big as 45 HD. The extra 30 HD should give you plenty of bonus feats and a bit of extra equipment to hopefully actually pose a bit of a threat to the character.
    Maruts are a total joke, especially for liches who have immunities that resist most of the marut's attacks. Even a severely advanced one shouldn't present any significant challenge to the lich personally, much less whatever minions/summons/allies/etc a lvl 47 wizard has.

    The act of creating a phylactery and becoming a lich is supposed to be something unspeakably evil, so in theory the act of creating eight soul gems on top of that to become a demilich should be about eight times as evil altogether. A character that high level is already going to be on the gods' radars without having to commit horrible attrocities to ascend to a higher level, so if a good deity was to learn that this character was in the process of becoming a demilich they would probably send a small army of angels or archons to try wiping the problem off the map. Since you're well into epic levels you will, again, be looking at the advancement line to see if you can scale anything up to come close to the wizard's level. If all else fails, the deities themselves might intervene.
    A level 47 character is more powerful than most gods. It's a good idea fluffwise, but he will need to step up the difficulty of the monsters since angels and archons are not going to present a significant challenge.
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    Default Re: Pc becoming a Demilich?

    In terms of challenge, the "47th level caster" part of the character is going to be a much bigger factor than the "demilich" part. I don't know the optimization level of your game, but that high-level a caster can very easily achieve most of the Demilich immunities through buffs, even without using Epic Spellcasting.

    Since it's on top, Demilich is of course an upgrade, but not a huge one, it mainly makes some things innate (which could be handy if people are throwing Disjunction around).

    Now challenging a 47th level caster ... yes, that is tricky.

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    Default Re: Pc becoming a Demilich?

    No love for the Worm That Walks?

    Its got lots of narrative flavor. Since the PC is already quite high level, you could probably boost the power of the Worm That Walks by adding some special abilities the epic spell used it create it. Or perhaps make the abilities usable at will.

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    Default Re: Pc becoming a Demilich?

    I wouldn't recommend having his PC become a Demilich.

    I would recommend having his PC become an NPC and then do with him whatever both you and the player want.

    Very rarely in my experience do games reach epic levels. The system as is breaks down way before that and although a good story is very important, so too are memorable and often difficult challenges for the PCs to overcome.

    At level 47, a caster PC is unlikely to find anything that will remotely inconvenience him. And if he does, it means that the rest of the party, whom I would hazard are not all casters, are in for a rough and frustrating time.

    In the end, though, it comes down to a compromise between you and your players. If you enjoy high powered epic campaigns, then by all means- the template is there.

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    Default Re: Pc becoming a Demilich?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaern View Post
    Actually, neither of these would work. Demiliches have Old magic immunity, which makes them immune to all magical and supernatural effects regardless of whether they allow for spell reistance.
    Demiliches come from the Epic Levels Handbook which is a 3.0 sourcebook, making it much less forgiving than 3.5 content. All golems originally had the same magic immunity, but when the Monster Manual was updated to 3.5 they were rewritten to have New magic immunity which adds their vulnerability to spells that ignore spell resistance. There was an official 3.5 update to the Epic Levels Handbook, but this update didn't amend the demilich's or the epic-level golems' magic immunity. They still have the Old magic immunity, which is much more powerful than what we're used to seeing on the average iron golem.
    So they are fully immune to all magic and supernatural effects unless, as mentioned earlier, they willingly suppress their immunity to accept an effect. Turn/Rebuke Undead is listed as a (Su) ability, so demiliches are immune to being turned.
    Problem is, that when an Orb of X hits you you are not hit by magic. That's the whole point of Conjuration (Creation) sub-school of magic. An orb of acid is normal mundane non-magical acid its just magically created. Same reason a Demi lich can be hit by a falling Wall of Iron, is because its an conjuration creation, ergo a non-magical wall of iron. So it will work! It doesn't matter what the Demi liches immunity says "immunity to all magic", when the thing your hitting them with isn't magic.

    Regarding turning them, it seem to be right that they have turning immunity, but the spells will work though!
    Last edited by Melcar; 2020-09-16 at 02:43 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
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    Default Re: Pc becoming a Demilich?

    At level 47 energy damage should not matter. I'd you havent bought or crafted universal elemental immunity, or 5 elemental immumities with extra ring slots, it's only 5 level 7 slots or an epic spell. It should have ceased being an issue at all by level 30 to 35.

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    Default Re: Pc becoming a Demilich?

    Seconding the "become an NPC and play in more playable Levels".

    Honestly, what is there to adventure for for a Level 47 (!!) Wizard/Archmage?

    If he pans it, and has a few years downtime, he can take down anything that doesnt have a permanently "looking for Danger from Magic" Purview.

    Meeting him in Combat includes overcoming his at least 10 Contingencies, his Magic items make him Immune to, again, just about anything (All Elements, Mind Blank, Death Effects, and so forth).

    How did he get this far (and how does the rest of the party look^^) anyway?
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    Default Re: Pc becoming a Demilich?

    For referance, even a non-epic Lich can easyly Shapechange themselves into a Demilich via buffing their caster level a bit, and the only benefit of that form they would Arguably not get is the SLAs (some may argue they get it, please don't turn it into this kind of debate).

    So, if you have a Lv 47 PC who is a full caster, you have much more to worry about challenging them than just their templates. By that level, it's just a thematic addition to the character, and not really about giving them power they don't have access to either way.

    In other words, it has the same impact in their character, as allowing a Lv1 Wizard PC buy a Wand of Prestidigitation. Purelly thematic and cosmetical changes.

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    Default Re: Pc becoming a Demilich?

    Quote Originally Posted by Efrate View Post
    At level 47 energy damage should not matter. I'd you havent bought or crafted universal elemental immunity, or 5 elemental immumities with extra ring slots, it's only 5 level 7 slots or an epic spell. It should have ceased being an issue at all by level 30 to 35.
    Well, searing spell and piercing cold spell meta-magic feats, will penetrate fire and cold immunity... So, there's that. But sure, at level 47 I would indeed too have elemental immunity!

    Demi liches are some of the most hard to kill things in the game. Not only are they at CR 29 as per ELH, but a level 47 even more so. AC through the roof, high ass stats and a bunch of immunities. Assuming its in Forgotten Realms, according to Monsters of Faerűn, liches have special and additional immunities on top of the standard lich abilities in MM. And a demi lich retains all of those when transforming from lich to demi lich.

    An idea I had once were to build a Demi Draco Lich off a Great Wyrm Red dragon. Imagine a giant red dragon skull floating with gem fangs... yep that **** would scare the hell out of even the highest level PC!


    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    Seconding the "become an NPC and play in more playable Levels".

    Honestly, what is there to adventure for for a Level 47 (!!) Wizard/Archmage?

    If he pans it, and has a few years downtime, he can take down anything that doesnt have a permanently "looking for Danger from Magic" Purview.

    Meeting him in Combat includes overcoming his at least 10 Contingencies, his Magic items make him Immune to, again, just about anything (All Elements, Mind Blank, Death Effects, and so forth).

    How did he get this far (and how does the rest of the party look^^) anyway?
    Well, there are indeed entities more powerful out there than level 47 demi lich. Not saying that is not crazy powerful, but I'm just saying, that if a PC reaches that level, you can be sure BBEG-NPCs have reach that level too. The multiverse contains all gaming worlds, and all the planes. In the ELH there are inter-planar organizations, who indeed have members or goals that would be able to handle a level 47 character.

    And this is way before we get into dealing with the elder evils or deities of varying levels. If I were to run, such a game, I would sit down with the player and discuss what the character's goals are. Personally I would hunt for artifacts... I have a level 32 wizard, which unfortunately does not see a lot of playtime anymore, but the goal with him is artifact hunting. Find artifact, study it, and carefully store in vault - on to next artifact. That sort of game/quest takes my characters into ancient dungeons and mystical planes and enables him to interact with both powerful and interesting NPCs who might either be out for said artifact them selves or who might be guarding them...

    One has to remember that not all games are run at super high optimization. One of Tippy's level 17 wizards could probably easily take out an unoptimized level 47 demi lich, so if the game does not run on constant free wish cycles, it might be possible to run the game almost like a mid/high pre-epic game...

    I would also advise going more over to an investigation/ intrigue game so to limit the combat. Simply because combat at that level is very difficult unless its mutual assumes disjunctions flying around. And I would suggest no Epic Magic, because the rules for that suck... better to let the PC research level 10 and 11 true dweomers than using epic magic!
    Last edited by Melcar; 2020-09-18 at 07:45 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

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    Default Re: Pc becoming a Demilich?

    It might actually not be a big change if you make him pay for the LA upfront. Drop from a level 47 wizard to 35 with the demi lich template. Unless your campaign is going to level 60, other players might not appreciate free 12 LA on one player. And if your campaign is going a lot further, being able to still get xp might also be of interest which won't happen unless you push CR up be 12 as well.

    Silverwrath is another interesting undead template for spell casters, but certainly does not have the durability of a demilich.

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    Default Re: Pc becoming a Demilich?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    Seconding the "become an NPC and play in more playable Levels".

    Honestly, what is there to adventure for for a Level 47 (!!) Wizard/Archmage?

    If he pans it, and has a few years downtime, he can take down anything that doesnt have a permanently "looking for Danger from Magic" Purview.

    Meeting him in Combat includes overcoming his at least 10 Contingencies, his Magic items make him Immune to, again, just about anything (All Elements, Mind Blank, Death Effects, and so forth).

    How did he get this far (and how does the rest of the party look^^) anyway?
    Well, they look AWESOME. A demilich caster, a Marilith demon fighter, a Corpse tearer linnorm necromancer, A dark elf female arcane archer, a mimic rogue, A ulitharid psionic, A dark elf male ninja, and a fallen angel wizard
    And how they got this far is they have a great DM (That's Me)
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