What alignment is Oona?

[Fyraltari]

You are all rotters and I hate you.

Grey Wolf

They are just trying to defend characters they like against unfair accusations. You wouldn't hold standing up for truth against a forumite, would you?

[Doug Lampert]

This whole discussion feels to me like Deja Vu to Hilgya, which in turn was Deja Vu to Tarquin, which in turn was Deja Vu to Thog, which in turn was Deja Vu to Belkar.

I'm having Deja Vu about having Deja Vu about this discussion.

It is evident that many readers simply will not admit that a likable character could possibly be Evil no matter how many people they viciously murder/attempt to murder and no matter how much evil they do on screen.

Hey, Hilgya doesn't belong in that list, she was fighting back against a slave ring! That's Good-aligned if anything!

Neither does Tarquin, the beacon of stability in a sea of political turmoil, who – despite his shortcomings – strived to live up to his responsibilities as a parent.

And all Thog wanted was ice cream and puppies! You wouldn't blame a person for mass murdering when they want ice cream and puppies, would you?

You are all rotters and I hate you.

Grey Wolf

They are just trying to defend characters they like against unfair accusations. You wouldn't hold standing up for truth against a forumite, would you?

I admire the recursive reference between Grey Wolf and Fyraltari, but as the originator of the list, I must insist that Belkar is clearly LG as he was only viciously murdering goblinoids, and they have green skin and fangs, and the occasionally really lame barbarian, and that's more of a mercy killing, and he's part of a group that's trying to save the world.

Now everyone has a defender and the circle is complete or something.

[Schroeswald]

I admire the recursive reference between Grey Wolf and Fyraltari, but as the originator of the list, I must insist that Belkar is clearly LG as he was only viciously murdering goblinoids, and they have green skin and fangs, and the occasionally really lame barbarian, and that's more of a mercy killing, and he's part of a group that's trying to save the world.

Now everyone has a defender and the circle is complete or something.

Don’t be ridiculous Belkar could never be Lawful Good, that’s ridiculous, Lawful people are lame and dumb and I hate them. He’s Neutral Good, much more accurate.

[Conradine]

As Roy himself noticed, most people would kill ogres - or bugbears - on sight , even if those "monsters" are only attending a concert.
As Redcloak noticed, the Sapphire Guard thinks nothing about pursuing and exterminating goblinoids even very far away from their territory.

Therefore, I can accept that Oona is Evil only if many, many "civilized" races are evil too.

I don't consider Evil attacking or killing an armed foe regardless of circumstances.
Those who live by the sword must accept they may also die by the sword.

Beside that, I would be very interested to see if Oona would kill or spare a defenseless civilian.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

As Roy himself noticed, most people would kill ogres - or bugbears - on sight , even if those "monsters" are only attending a concert.
As Redcloak noticed, the Sapphire Guard thinks nothing about pursuing and exterminating goblinoids even very far away from their territory.

Therefore, I can accept that Oona is Evil only if many, many "civilized" races are evil too.

Races aren't Evil. Individuals are. And yes, there are plenty of examples of Evil humans. This is not news, or in any way a defence of what Oona has done.

I don't consider Evil attacking or killing an armed foe regardless of circumstances.

Well, it is, since "regardless of circumstances" is doing a lot of hiding nastiness in that sentence, like for example "after surrendering". And that's before pointing out that "two people walking on a frozen lake miles from your house" does not fit the definition of the word "foe".

Those who live by the sword must accept they may also die by the sword.

No-one is claiming that O-Chul was surprised by the attack. He wasn't. Being attacked by Evil people is a reality when traveling. Blaming the victim, however, does not magically change the actions of the person choosing an Evil course of action.

Beside that, I would be very interested to see if Oona would kill or spare a defenseless civilian.

She would. To feed them to a pet. At no point did she identify them as paladins, and she attacked them before she knew them to be armed. Had they been unarmed and defenceless, they'd have died to the first attack, and MitD would be wondering how to refuse to eat sonic'ed human.

Grey Wolf

[Friv]

As Roy himself noticed, most people would kill ogres - or bugbears - on sight , even if those "monsters" are only attending a concert.

Kind of the whole point of that story was that killing the orcs because they were inconvenient would have been evil.

As Redcloak noticed, the Sapphire Guard thinks nothing about pursuing and exterminating goblinoids even very far away from their territory.

Well first off, Redcloak is not telling the truth. Regardless of how evil their actions were (quite, incidentally) the Sapphire Guard that attacked his home weren't on a random mission of goblin killing. They were seeking the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, a particular high priest of an evil god on a mission to unleash a terrible ancient evil that the Sapphire Guard's entire mission is to keep contained, and they killed everyone in the village because they decided that those people were all followers of the Crimson Mantle and thus reasonable enemies.

The Sapphire Guard in that situation was wrong, and committed a very evil act, but they were still operating with more justification than Oona.

Therefore, I can accept that Oona is Evil only if many, many "civilized" races are evil too.

No, many "civilized" races aren't evil. But many "civilized" individuals are.

[Conradine]

Well, it is, since "regardless of circumstances" is doing a lot of hiding nastiness in that sentence, like for example "after surrendering". And that's before pointing out that "two people walking on a frozen lake miles from your house" does not fit the definition of the word "foe".

If a foe surrender he must drop his weapons, at the very least.

And they weren't "two people". They were paladins.
About being miles from Oona's house, Redcloack's village was even more far from Azure City.

[Metastachydium]

If a foe surrender he must drop his weapons, at the very least.

And they weren't "two people". They were paladins.
About being miles from Oona's house, Redcloack's village was even more far from Azure City.

This (v. the last panel) is what Oona sees right before she attacks.
Again, please do point out how she is supposed to tell that
1. these two cloaked figures are paladins;
2. O-Chul is armed and the two are wearing armour;
3. Lien's spear is not a fishing tool.

[Friv]

This (v. the last panel) is what Oona sees right before she attacks.
Again, please do point out how she is supposed to tell that
1. these two cloaked figures are paladins;
2. O-Chul is armed and the two are wearing armour;
3. Lien's spear is not a fishing tool.

Not only that, but Oona never refers to the two as paladins later. They're just "two humans." There's no indication that she believes that they're paladins even after the fight. In fact, all signs point to her not thinking that they're anyone special, because she doesn't mention them to Xykon or Redcloak at all, and doesn't seem to consider the possibility of their survival (or alternately, does consider it but doesn't much care if they get away.)

[Saint-Just]

If a foe surrender he must drop his weapons, at the very least.

And they weren't "two people". They were paladins.
About being miles from Oona's house, Redcloack's village was even more far from Azure City.

Even ignoring the fact that crimes of certain group of Azure City paladins wouldn't make all of them "fair game", especially not three (or four? IDHMBWM) decades lately, there is even more damning fact that Oona didn't know they were Azure City paladins.

Don't get me wrong, if I squint just right I may see a case for a Neutral-person-commitng-Evil-act (not likely, but to say it is impossible would be to over-commit myself), but morality of the act itself is not really questionable.

Oh, and while we are speaking of remote possibilities how likely do you think that Oona would even know about Azure City expeditions, because bugbear village is quite purposefully shut from the whole world, and Redcloak doesn't seem to be a guy sharing personal information especially a) after decades have passed and b) Azure City paladins have been destroyed as a force.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If a foe surrender he must drop his weapons, at the very least.

Monks, sorcerers, and even wizards to a degree can't "drop their weapons". Warriors can still be very dangerous even without weapons. Etc. And all of which requires to give notice. Oona did not do that, but went directly for the kill.

And they weren't "two people". They were paladins.

Which Oona did not know and did not care about.

About being miles from Oona's house, Redcloack's village was even more far from Azure City.

Tu Quoque fallacy, one I already addressed.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

3. Lien's spear is not a fishing tool.

Pretty confident that Lien fights with a harpoon rather than a spear.

[Peelee]

Pretty confident that Lien fights with a harpoon rather than a spear.

Nope. Even went to a fight scene to confirm. That's no harpoon.

[Fyraltari]

Nope. Even went to a fight scene to confirm. That's no harpoon.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to see? The weapon isn't described and the way the tips has points towards the shaft is very harpoon-like to me.

Spoiler: Harpoons

Show

[Peelee]

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to see? The weapon isn't described and the way the tips has points towards the shaft is very harpoon-like to me.

The link was me going to a fight scene to check and see if there was a different weapon being used; I didn't realize you were taking about the same weapon we see her holding in the previously linked comic. The Giant isn't a specialized weapon expert, he's an artist. Lien's weapon looks like a generic, lightly stylized spear to me. A generic, lightly stylized harpoon would probably have one large back-facing barb. Cartooning isn't about complete accuracy, even in non-stick-figure comics. A spear will be a long stock with a pointed end, like what we see Lien have. A harpoon would probably have a more notable barb to emphasize that it's not a spear. I see that as a spear, the CLG apparently sees it as a spear, everyone I've seen mention it barring you has seen it as a spear.

It's probably a spear.

[hroþila]

For what it's worth, barbed spearheads were a thing. Although I would expect them to feature mostly if not exclusively in throwing spears.

[DaLucaray]

It is perfectly logical for Oona to be helping Team Evil because she agrees with their plan to release a soul-devouring abomination so that a chaotic evil lich can rule the world. That may not be her stated intentions for helping Team Evil, but I'm going to ignore her stated intentions and make up my own reasoning that supports the alignment I want her to have.

Try to convince me that she is Neutral.

[Fyraltari]

The link was me going to a fight scene to check and see if there was a different weapon being used; I didn't realize you were taking about the same weapon we see her holding in the previously linked comic. The Giant isn't a specialized weapon expert, he's an artist. Lien's weapon looks like a generic, lightly stylized spear to me. A generic, lightly stylized harpoon would probably have one large back-facing barb. Cartooning isn't about complete accuracy, even in non-stick-figure comics. A spear will be a long stock with a pointed end, like what we see Lien have. A harpoon would probably have a more notable barb to emphasize that it's not a spear. I see that as a spear, the CLG apparently sees it as a spear, everyone I've seen mention it barring you has seen it as a spear.

It's probably a spear.

Honestly it looked like it could be a harpoon and given her marine/fishing theme I assumed it was. Absent the Giant or a character describing it one way or another this is simply a question of interpreting the art so there isn't a right or wrong answer.

[Cazero]

Even if it was a spear.
The northern wastes are a dangerous place. You could get assaulted by wildlife anytime. Going there unarmed is not a display of peaceful intent, it is foolishness.
If anything, they should have brought a ballista to deal with the wild flying monsters who can kill you by screaming and against which Lien's crossbow was completely inadequate.

[Worldsong]

Monks, sorcerers, and even wizards to a degree can't "drop their weapons". Warriors can still be very dangerous even without weapons. Etc. And all of which requires to give notice. Oona did not do that, but went directly for the kill.

I'd tell the monk to throw hands but he might get the wrong idea.

[dancrilis]

Honestly it looked like it could be a harpoon and given her marine/fishing theme I assumed it was. Absent the Giant or a character describing it one way or another this is simply a question of interpreting the art so there isn't a right or wrong answer.

Harpoons have a 30foot rope attached to them, they are also thrown weapons where medium creatures take a penalty to using them, they also impale those hit (if they don't make a reflex save) forcing them to make a heal check to remove it or take damage as they do and limiting movement and movement actions while impaled ... that does not seem to be the weapon that Lien is using.

[Metastachydium]

Pretty confident that Lien fights with a harpoon rather than a spear.

Which is basically my point: even if you are wrong, it looks like a fishing harpoon, rather than a weapon.
(Also, the spears that I could find in the comic look nothing like Lien's weapon.)

[Peelee]

Honestly it looked like it could be a harpoon and given her marine/fishing theme I assumed it was.

Thats absolutely fair.

Which is basically my point: even if you are wrong, it looks like a fishing harpoon, rather than a weapon.
(Also, the spears that I could find in the comic look nothing like Lien's weapon.)

As is that. Ya know, screw it. I'm jumping ship. Totally on board with the idea that it's a harpoon now!

[Fyraltari]

I'm jumping ship. Totally on board

Puns intended?

[Jason]

So now we're at the point of arguing "if Lien is holding a regular spear then Oona is Neutral. But if she's holding a harpoon than Oona is evil"?

[Peelee]

So now we're at the point of arguing "if Lien is holding a regular spear then Oona is Neutral. But if she's holding a harpoon than Oona is evil"?

Oh, oh my no. Oona is evil regardless. When O-Chul talked about a human she liked, she understood that to mean a human he ate rather than a human he befriended. And she was totally cool with that. And tried to get him more humans to eat (coincidentally, one of whom was the one he was talking about).

Pretty cut-and-dry that Oona is Evil.

[Metastachydium]

So now we're at the point of arguing "if Lien is holding a regular spear then Oona is Neutral. But if she's holding a harpoon than Oona is evil"?

Forget about Oona. The spear-or-harpoon dilemma is a lot more interesting in and on itself.

(And the original argument was part of a list of reasons why the „but they were heavily armed hostiles” argument, specifically, that keeps coming up does not hold.)

[dancrilis]

When O-Chul talked about a human she liked

So the monster in the darkness is O-Chul and a girl ... that is a theory ... I guess?

[Keltest]

I think Peelee has cracked the puzzle. Somebody send him over to the MITD thread with this revelation!

[Fyraltari]

So the monster in the darkness is O-Chul and a girl ... that is a theory ... I guess?

Well, that certainly explains why the MitD wouldn't believe O-Chul about it.