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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Since she had no problems when Protection from Good was cast on her we can rule out any Good alignment
    'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómë!" The night is passing!"

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    Frankly, if a monster which is supposed to usual devour people as snacks (I can go for a black dragon, for example, but arguably MiTD kind is considered quite more violent, dangerous and overall "worse") something maybe looking like this


    says to someone something on the line of: "You know, back in Azure City I really liked a human paladin. I REALLY liked him!" I challenge everyone who is not on this side of the 4th wall to think that it befriended him.
    As an autistic person I'm rather strongly opposed to calling people stupid for misunderstanding what someone else said. A large part of my life consists of me misunderstanding others and others misunderstanding me because our mental frameworks aren't aligned. And from what I've heard different cultures can have similar effects, especially if the person from the different culture isn't familiar with the language.

    EDIT: So basically I'm agreeing with you.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    She was hunting humans because she misunderstood MitD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong View Post
    That's more Evil than stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Agreed.
    Failure to understand something is "more evil than stupid?" Interesting hot take, but I disagree.
    Last edited by Precure; 2020-09-17 at 03:17 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Misunderstanding Monster-san may have been stupid depending on what exactly was said (we don't know that). Deciding to kill two random paladins to feed him is straight-up evil.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    Failure to understand something is "more evil than stupid?" Interesting hot take, but I disagree.
    Misunderstanding someone has little to do with intelligence at all if the two people have different cultures and even different native languages.

    Interpreting something someone else said in a way that involves capturing some paladins to use them as food is Evil.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Really now? Would you say same for Elan and Thog? She had also believed that she has "power of shrinky dinking". Sorry but that's not a hill worth dying for.
    Last edited by Precure; 2020-09-17 at 04:42 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    Really now? Would you say same for Elan and Thog? She had also believed that she has "power of shrinky dinking". Sorry but that's not a hill worth dying for.
    What causes misunderstandings is difference in mental frameworks and flawed communication. One of the easiest ways for such a difference to exist is a significant difference in intelligence. However other methods to create such differences include different cultures and the easiest way for flawed communication to occur is through differences in language comprehension.

    Also Oona expresses surprise at Maxrah turning into Minrah the moment she attacks. That hardly screams stupidity, especially since another explanation could be her not being very familiar with the spell Minrah was using. It's not like everyone in the world is a spellcaster or has an intimate knowledge of all the spells in existence.

    And I disagree. The stance that miscommunication does not equal stupidity is certainly worth dying for, because the alternative is that literally everyone in existence is stupid.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong View Post
    And I disagree. The stance that miscommunication does not equal stupidity is certainly worth dying for, because the alternative is that literally everyone in existence is stupid.
    I mean, that's essentially correct.

    "Intelligence" is really just a patchwork of different unrelated mental skills and people are generally clever in some areas and stupid in others.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I mean, that's essentially correct.

    "Intelligence" is really just a patchwork of different unrelated mental skills and people are generally clever in some areas and stupid in others.
    True, but my follow up argument was going to be that if we go in that direction then calling Oona stupid doesn't really mean anything anymore because everyone else is also stupid, so you might as well base her alignment on other traits such as Lawfulness and Evilness.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Oona is far too insightful to be *generally* stupid - she noticed immediately that Redcloak didn't answer her question, for one, and understands and agrees with his comments about her trying his patience. And that's just one page. Imagine as contrast how Elan or the Monster in the Darkness would have reacted (back before they became a little more insightful). Oona's demeanour can be explained by a combination of her being ignorant about certain things, her not being ashamed about who she is or to *seem* stupid, and a partial two-way language barrier.

    Oona is friendly, helpful to her friends and allies, knows where to put healthy barriers, is smart enough to protect a vital resource without violence, believes in a natural and good hierarchy between beasts and masters, and is prepared to kill people at a moment's notice as a favour to her friends.

    Lawful evil, but friendly.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong View Post
    Also Oona expresses surprise at Maxrah turning into Minrah the moment she attacks. That hardly screams stupidity,
    Thank you for a fine post and saving me the effort. +1 A language barrier does not create a default stupidity on one party's part. All it does is require a bit more work to communicate effectively.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-09-17 at 07:34 AM.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong View Post
    As an autistic person I'm rather strongly opposed to calling people stupid for misunderstanding what someone else said. A large part of my life consists of me misunderstanding others and others misunderstanding me because our mental frameworks aren't aligned.
    My personal theory is that neurotypical people actually misunderstand what is being said about 95% of the time.

    Like, neurotypicals literally never seem to know what is going on. They constantly ignore the evidence of their eyes and their ears and just pretend to understand whats happening and pretend that they’re understood by others, just to make social interactions less difficult.

    Oona doesn’t hide her constant social confusion like most neurotypicals do. That doesn’t make her stupid. It makes her socially awkward, and it probably makes her relationships with other people very difficult. And it probably explains why she decided to be a beast master instead of a bard.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Dwarves and paladins are, more or less, natural enemies of bugbears. And they are in her territory, with weapons and armors. It does not strikes me as Evil that she attacks them.

    For sure, it's way less evil than travelling to a village and slaughter unarmed civilians, including children.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradine View Post
    Dwarves and paladins are, more or less, natural enemies of bugbears. And they are in her territory, with weapons and armors. It does not strikes me as Evil that she attacks them.

    For sure, it's way less evil than travelling to a village and slaughter unarmed civilians, including children.
    Thats kind of a huge double standard there. If its not ok for the paladins or dwarves to attack the bugbears just for being there, it isnt ok for the bugbears to attack the dwarves or paladins just for being there.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Fyraltari's Avatar

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradine View Post
    Dwarves and paladins are, more or less, natural enemies of bugbears.
    Wot?
    Quote Originally Posted by Conradine View Post
    And they are in her territory, with weapons and armors. It does not strikes me as Evil that she attacks them.
    You mean the entire ice floe? You just get to attack anybody armed that's somewhat near where you live? I guess legalization is one way to solve banditry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradine View Post
    For sure, it's way less evil than travelling to a village and slaughter unarmed civilians, including children.
    Whataboutism aside what does this have to do with Oona's actions?
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  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Thats kind of a huge double standard there. If its not ok for the paladins or dwarves to attack the bugbears just for being there, it isnt ok for the bugbears to attack the dwarves or paladins just for being there.
    To be fair to Oona; her first response was not "Attack!" but it was "Hmm, listen to this very interesting conversation which is getting more bugbear-like at the moment" and then (as her guest was being attacked for sure) she got involved in a kinetic sense.
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    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Metastachydium's Avatar

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradine View Post
    Dwarves and paladins are, more or less, natural enemies of bugbears.
    Paladins? Since when?
    Also, neither paladin wears armour which was or could be visible to Oona when she attacked (she came from behind and the paladins have cloaks), O-Chulseemed to be unarmed, while Lien was carrying a spear that probably is in fact supposed to double as a fishing instrument (mind you, they were walking above a body of water).

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malloon View Post
    Oona is friendly, helpful to her friends and allies, knows where to put healthy barriers, is smart enough to protect a vital resource without violence, believes in a natural and good hierarchy between beasts and masters, and is prepared to kill people at a moment's notice as a favour to her friends.

    Lawful evil, but friendly.
    I agree with this assessment. Moreover, I think that had the Order made it to the Pole before Team Evil did, they probably would have been able to befriend Oona in much the same way.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradine View Post
    Dwarves and paladins are, more or less, natural enemies of bugbears. And they are in her territory, with weapons and armors. It does not strikes me as Evil that she attacks them.

    For sure, it's way less evil than travelling to a village and slaughter unarmed civilians, including children.
    Oona has no way to know that O-Chul and Lien are paladins; what she did was to attack two individuals without any warning with the intent of feeding them to someone else.

    Durkon was unarmed and engaged in a diplomatic meeting with Redcloak under truce; Redcloak broke the truce and tried to kill Durkon, Minrah intervened to defend Durkon and Oona is willing to kill them just because she can't find a reason not to kill them.

    None of the individuals she tried to kill is known to have killed unarmed civilians, including children.
    Last edited by Bunny Commando; 2020-09-17 at 11:36 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    To be fair to Oona; her first response was not "Attack!" but it was "Hmm, listen to this very interesting conversation which is getting more bugbear-like at the moment" and then (as her guest was being attacked for sure) she got involved in a kinetic sense.
    Thats fine for Durkon, but the paladins?
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Thank you for a fine post and saving me the effort. +1 A language barrier does not create a default stupidity on one party's part. All it does is require a bit more work to communicate effectively.
    Thank you. And yes language barriers are the worst.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    My personal theory is that neurotypical people actually misunderstand what is being said about 95% of the time.

    Like, neurotypicals literally never seem to know what is going on. They constantly ignore the evidence of their eyes and their ears and just pretend to understand whats happening and pretend that they’re understood by others, just to make social interactions less difficult.

    Oona doesn’t hide her constant social confusion like most neurotypicals do. That doesn’t make her stupid. It makes her socially awkward, and it probably makes her relationships with other people very difficult. And it probably explains why she decided to be a beast master instead of a bard.
    I think that what happens is that in any instance of communication/interaction there's a decent amount of filling in the gaps, but when the interaction is between two people who share a similar culture and mindframe/mindset they'll mostly fill in those gaps with accurate assumptions.

    When people with different cultures and/or mindframes try to fill in the gaps problems show up.

    And people who are just strange in general (whether due to autism, unusual upbringing, or other deviations) learn to try harder to pick up all the data so the amount of assumptions they need to make is reduced but that both takes more effort and doesn't work as well as already being similar enough that you can make a reasonable guess at the other person's intentions.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Thats kind of a huge double standard there. If its not ok for the paladins or dwarves to attack the bugbears just for being there, it isnt ok for the bugbears to attack the dwarves or paladins just for being there.
    The ( big ) difference is that Oona is patroling her territory, near her settlement; the paladins hunted the goblins in their own homes.

    You mean the entire ice floe? You just get to attack anybody armed that's somewhat near where you live? I guess legalization is one way to solve banditry.
    Actually, in ancient times, the standard reaction to armed foreigners approaching a settlement was shot first- ask later.
    Actually, even in not so ancient times.
    Last edited by Conradine; 2020-09-17 at 02:33 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradine View Post
    The ( big ) difference is that Oona is patroling her territory, near her settlement; the paladins hunted the goblins in their own homes.



    Actually, in ancient times, the standard reaction to armed foreigners approaching a settlement was shot first- ask later.
    Actually, even in not so ancient times.
    I fail to see how that difference meaningfully affects the morality of attacking random people for no reason. Let alone for the specific purpose of feeding them to an animal as a convenient treat.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradine View Post
    The ( big ) difference is that Oona is patroling her territory, near her settlement; the paladins hunted the goblins in their own homes.
    Ah yes, the infamous "everywhere I can reach with my winged beast" method of determining the area of unmarked terrain that can be considered "territory" for the purposes of justifying murder. Not particularly different from "I killed you because there was no-one there to stop me" approach to murder. By that logic, the paladins considered the land where the goblin village was to be part of their territory too, and thus were perfectly entitled to kill those armed squatters. (They obviously were not)

    Now, IMnpHO, killing someone hours away from your village, and no danger to it in any way shape or form for the "crime" of being armed in a world where random encounters are a thing is Evil. And doing so so you can provide a treat to a pet is no better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradine View Post
    Actually, in ancient times, the standard reaction to armed foreigners approaching a settlement was shot first- ask later.
    Actually, even in not so ancient times.
    [citation needed]

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2020-09-17 at 03:51 PM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  25. - Top - End - #55
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Now, IMnpHO, killing someone hours away from your village, and no danger to it in any way shape or form for the "crime" of being armed in a world where random encounters are a thing is Evil. And doing so so you can provide a treat to a pet is no better.
    I don't know where you expect her to acquire her human treats humanly if not in the wild - the bugbears don't seem to have the resources to farm them, she could I suppose import from Gobbotopia in the future but they haven't estiblished trade relations yet.

    On topic - I see Oona as CE (I get a bit of a Thog, Xykon feel to her - fairly friendly, happy, willing to kill at a moments notice etc) and Greyview as NE, but I could see Oona as CN or NE (and maybe at a stretch TN) - I can see why some argue for L but I disagree on that (I don't see her as a Tarquin, Redcloak, Kubota character in the slightest).

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thales View Post
    I agree with this assessment. Moreover, I think that had the Order made it to the Pole before Team Evil did, they probably would have been able to befriend Oona in much the same way.
    I like this alternative reality. Of course, then everyone would complain that Oona was a superfluous subplot getting in the way of the Roy/Xykon fight. Or shipped her with, oh, let's say, Durkon.

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    Or shipped her with, oh, let's say, Durkon.
    Come on, do this right.
    Oona anime harem comedy. Redcloak is such a tsundere.
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  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazero View Post
    Come on, do this right.
    Oona anime harem comedy. Redcloak is such a tsundere.
    I think we're getting better, but not that much better. We'd ship her with Minrah.
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    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I think we're getting better, but not that much better. We'd ship her with Minrah.
    Youre not thinking big enough. Obviously the correct ship is the Flumphs. Both of them, simultaneously.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Youre not thinking big enough. Obviously the correct ship is the Flumphs. Both of them, simultaneously.
    As long as Belkar gets to watch.

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