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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Fyraltari's Avatar

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Yeah, but there's also traits that, while are found in good people very often [...] don't make an evil person somehow convert into neutral/good.
    There are that do? There are traits that by themselves are enough to make you call a particular person good, even if absolutely everything else about them is unrepentantly terrible? What an odd notion.

    I mean ignoring the fact that trying to put people in good/neutral/evil case as if that was somehow measurable is an exercise in futility, it seems to me that the only way to describe a character as "good" is to say that their positive traits outweight their negative ones in number or intensity. It's a ridiculously subjective call to make of course so people are going to disagree as they'll draw lines at different places.
    Tht makes much more sense to me than looking for particular traits that are necessary/sufficient to qualify for one case. Especially since everyone exhibits every trait at some degree. A perfectly selfish person is just as nonexistant as a perfectly selfless person, everyone is both but some are more one than the other while for others it's the opposite.

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    I can't pin down what is a "inherently good trait", but the closest I can come up with is "compassion and respect for the lives and dignities of other people," which Oona, Belkar, Hilgya, Jirix, and Malack definitely don't possess.
    I'm not sure what you are saying, there. Is that an example of an inherently good trait? Because, that's a bit needlessly complicated, I would have gone with love, humility or compassion, for example. OR are you saying that for a trait to be inherently good it must be an expression of that? I would disagree.
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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    There are that do? There are traits that by themselves are enough to make you call a particular person good, even if absolutely everything else about them is unrepentantly terrible? What an odd notion.

    I mean ignoring the fact that trying to put people in good/neutral/evil case as if that was somehow measurable is an exercise in futility, it seems to me that the only way to describe a character as "good" is to say that their positive traits outweight their negative ones in number or intensity. It's a ridiculously subjective call to make of course so people are going to disagree as they'll draw lines at different places.
    Tht makes much more sense to me than looking for particular traits that are necessary/sufficient to qualify for one case. Especially since everyone exhibits every trait at some degree. A perfectly selfish person is just as nonexistant as a perfectly selfless person, everyone is both but some are more one than the other while for others it's the opposite.
    Classifying people is a pretty dumb idea, yeah, but the OP was referring to that because Oona possessed several traits ( that are usually seen as good, such as caring for others or the community) she somehow was neutral.

    I guess I'd like to revise my stance, then; I am unsure (and I don't think) there are inherently good traits, but love and compassion are not necessarily inherently good ones. The same goes for typically-viewed-as-evil traits; malice or hatred are not necessarily inherently evil ones either.

    I'm not sure what you are saying, there. Is that an example of an inherently good trait? Because, that's a bit needlessly complicated, I would have gone with love, humility or compassion, for example. OR are you saying that for a trait to be inherently good it must be an expression of that? I would disagree.
    I named a broad one that I think can encompass a lot of other traits. Someone who has compassion and respect for all sentient lives embodies a lot of 'good' traits as well (empathy, understanding, selflessness, etc). I did mention a change of thought, in that yes, there's not really a concrete example of an inherently good trait.

  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Classifying people is a pretty dumb idea, yeah, but the OP was referring to that because Oona possessed several traits ( that are usually seen as good, such as caring for others or the community) she somehow was neutral.

    I guess I'd like to revise my stance, then; I am unsure (and I don't think) there are inherently good traits, but love and compassion are not necessarily inherently good ones. The same goes for typically-viewed-as-evil traits; malice or hatred are not necessarily inherently evil ones either.



    I named a broad one that I think can encompass a lot of other traits. Someone who has compassion and respect for all sentient lives embodies a lot of 'good' traits as well (empathy, understanding, selflessness, etc). I did mention a change of thought, in that yes, there's not really a concrete example of an inherently good trait.
    Multiple things I disagree with here. Those being love and compassion being not inherently good and malice not being inherently evil. Though I do agree about hatred not necessarily being evil, as a hatred of evil would logically be a good hatred to have.

    But anyway:

    1. The very definition of "malice" is "the desire to do evil". It cannot not be evil.

    2. I think you've confused kindness with compassion. Kindness isn't necessarily good or evil. An evil person understands the value of kindness, so far as it extends to loyalty from those being treated kindly. Compassion, on the other hand, requires empathy for the plight of others, which stands directly in opposition with the total selfishness of evil. A kind person will donate to a cause and feel good about the donation. A compassionate person will donate and feel guilty that they were unable to help more.

    3. I'm just going to quote myself on love here. Love cannot be evil. If the love appears to be evil, then it is not love, but some other emotion, whether it be pity, or lust, or pride, etc., masquerading as love.
    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingMist View Post
    And her Good acts are motivated by love for another, which we have never seen be a motive for an Evil character in-comic, at least not without it starting to pull them away from Evil, as with Belkar and MitD (platonic love in these cases, but love nonetheless). Tsukiko was driven by lust, before you mention her. Even Redcloak isn't motivated by love. He's motivated by pride and the sunk-cost fallacy while deluding himself that it's out of love for his brother and for goblinkind as a whole, a point Minrah most helpfully shouted at him in their most recent encounter.
    Last edited by WanderingMist; 2020-10-03 at 11:53 PM. Reason: Typo

  4. - Top - End - #214
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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingMist View Post
    Multiple things I disagree with here. Those being love and compassion being not inherently good and malice not being inherently evil. Though I do agree about hatred not necessarily being evil, as a hatred of evil would logically be a good hatred to have.

    But anyway:

    1. The very definition of "malice" is "the desire to do evil". It cannot not be evil.
    I feel it's malicious to play a prank, but I wouldn't say every person who does a prank is evil.

    2. I think you've confused kindness with compassion. Kindness isn't necessarily good or evil. An evil person understands the value of kindness, so far as it extends to loyalty from those being treated kindly. Compassion, on the other hand, requires empathy for the plight of others, which stands directly in opposition with the total selfishness of evil. A kind person will donate to a cause and feel good about the donation. A compassionate person will donate and feel guilty that they were unable to help more.
    I touched on it below, but loving someone could definitely a form of compassion.

    3. I'm just going to quote myself on love here. Love cannot be evil. If the love appears to be evil, then it is not love, but some other emotion, whether it be pity, or lust, or pride, etc., masquerading as love.
    Well, like I said, love isn't inherently anything, it's just another facet of a character.

    I mean, Nale and Sabine, among some of the most evilest characters in the comic, genuinely love each other (and not just a form of pity/lust/pride). Hilgya is surely not pitying her son either.

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    I feel it's malicious to play a prank, but I wouldn't say every person who does a prank is evil.
    I would say pranking is mischevious rather than malicious. Malice implies active ill will and intent.
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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Redcloak cast Protection from Good on Oona with no pain on her part, so it is literally not possible for Oona to be Good.

    Neutral or Evil are the only 2 options.

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingMist View Post
    Multiple things I disagree with here. Those being love and compassion being not inherently good and malice not being inherently evil. Though I do agree about hatred not necessarily being evil, as a hatred of evil would logically be a good hatred to have.

    But anyway:

    1. The very definition of "malice" is "the desire to do evil". It cannot not be evil.

    2. I think you've confused kindness with compassion. Kindness isn't necessarily good or evil. An evil person understands the value of kindness, so far as it extends to loyalty from those being treated kindly. Compassion, on the other hand, requires empathy for the plight of others, which stands directly in opposition with the total selfishness of evil. A kind person will donate to a cause and feel good about the donation. A compassionate person will donate and feel guilty that they were unable to help more.

    3. I'm just going to quote myself on love here. Love cannot be evil. If the love appears to be evil, then it is not love, but some other emotion, whether it be pity, or lust, or pride, etc., masquerading as love.
    Malice is a wrongful desire to harm others. It is evil by definition. If you have a desire to harm someone for perfectly justified reasons, such as to protect someone else, then it's not malice.

    Love is a form of advanced compassion for another person and is altruistic at its base. It cannot be evil. But love for one person is by itself not enough to redeem someone who engages in evil acts in every other aspect of their life.

    Hatred of an abstract concept, like evil or sin, is a very different kettle of fish from hatred of a person or group of people. Hatred of a person is an evil act, no matter how despicable or "deserving" the person may be. Hatred always harms the hater more than the object of the hate.

  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    I think this thread has a bad case of "But people who are X alignment do Y activity therefore Y is an X-aligned activity" which is really the wrong way to look at alignment.
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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Hatred always harms the hater more than the object of the hate.
    I can agree with most of your comment, but this particular line is going to need some backing up for me.

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Hatred always harms the hater more than the object of the hate.
    I beg to differ. If someone hates me and express his hatred by cutting away my reproductive apparatus, no amount of guilt or spiritual harm would equate my agony.

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong View Post
    I can agree with most of your comment, but this particular line is going to need some backing up for me.
    Sure. Let's say you hate a public figure your whole life but never actually meet them, correspond with them, or otherwise interact with them before you die.

    Who was the most negatively impacted by your hate?

    The target of your hate was wholly unaffected and was probably completely unaware of how you felt about them.

    You, on the other hand, were annoyed and stressed every time you thought of or talked about the person. Your hatred may even have ruined other relationships when friends became aware of your hatred for this person.

    If you go and act on your hatred then you may actually do more harm to the target of your hate, but that would be your actions doing the harm, not your hate. Hate by itself only harms the hater.

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    But if hate gives rise to intent which gives rise to action, why does the resulting harm not follow the chain back to the original motive? I don't think the hate is so easily divorced from the hateful acts. Impotent hate harms the hater and not the hated, but that is a function of the impotence, not the hatred.

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    But if hate gives rise to intent which gives rise to action, why does the resulting harm not follow the chain back to the original motive? I don't think the hate is so easily divorced from the hateful acts. Impotent hate harms the hater and not the hated, but that is a function of the impotence, not the hatred.
    "Potent" hate also harms the hater.

    Yes, hate is a motive for hateful acts (obviously), but it is the acts that are doing the harm to others. The same actions with different motives would be just as harmful.

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Yes, hate is a motive for hateful acts (obviously), but it is the acts that are doing the harm to others.
    In most cases, yes. But not if the hater is someone the hated cares deeply for.

    As an example, in A Song of Ice and Fire, it's very clear that Tywin Lannister hates his son Tyrion, but while this is just a facet of Tywin's character, it scarred Tyrion for life.
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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    "Potent" hate also harms the hater.
    The claim you made was that hate harms the hater more than the hated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Yes, hate is a motive for hateful acts (obviously), but it is the acts that are doing the harm to others. The same actions with different motives would be just as harmful.
    And I would say those different motives are just as relevant. My position is that if someone is driven by some motive to commit intentionally harmful acts, then the motive is also implicated in the harm done, because the acts are an expression of the motive.

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    In most cases, yes. But not if the hater is someone the hated cares deeply for.

    As an example, in A Song of Ice and Fire, it's very clear that Tywin Lannister hates his son Tyrion, but while this is just a facet of Tywin's character, it scarred Tyrion for life.
    And then Tyrion killed Tywin, so both were harmed by it.

    IRL, I really like the following quotation: "Holding onto anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die." Makes a lot of sense...

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Probably chaotic evil, though I could see her being lawful evil.
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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    I was ambivalent before reading this thread but I'd like to reiterate that she considers MitD- a being intelligent enough to have a conversation- to be inherently subservient to another being, despite him stating that he does not see it that way or want that. If that doesn't scream "Lawful Evil" to me I don't know what does.

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Sure. Let's say you hate a public figure your whole life but never actually meet them, correspond with them, or otherwise interact with them before you die.

    Who was the most negatively impacted by your hate?

    The target of your hate was wholly unaffected and was probably completely unaware of how you felt about them.

    You, on the other hand, were annoyed and stressed every time you thought of or talked about the person. Your hatred may even have ruined other relationships when friends became aware of your hatred for this person.

    If you go and act on your hatred then you may actually do more harm to the target of your hate, but that would be your actions doing the harm, not your hate. Hate by itself only harms the hater.
    Hmmm... Okay no this just reads as an argument similar to shooting someone and then saying "I didn't kill him, the bullet did." Technically correct but it dismisses important connections between cause and effect.

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by elros View Post
    IRL, I really like the following quotation: "Holding onto anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die." Makes a lot of sense...
    That is basically what I'm getting at, yes.

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by elros View Post
    And then Tyrion killed Tywin, so both were harmed by it.

    IRL, I really like the following quotation: "Holding onto anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die." Makes a lot of sense...
    In fairness, in D&D, there is at least one class that can actually hate someone so hard, they die.

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    In fairness, in D&D, there is at least one class that can actually hate someone so hard, they die.
    I don't think I've heard of that one, but I'm guessing it would be a class feature doing the killing, not "hate".

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    I was ambivalent before reading this thread but I'd like to reiterate that she considers MitD- a being intelligent enough to have a conversation- to be inherently subservient to another being, despite him stating that he does not see it that way or want that. If that doesn't scream "Lawful Evil" to me I don't know what does.
    Lawful Evil characters neither love or respect those below them on the hierarchy. The mark of Lawful Evil is exploiting, mistreating and belittling the "inferiors".

    Oona believes in reciprocity of respect and the master's duty to protect those who serve him / her. And she puts her money were her mouth is. That's not Evil, actually I find it incompatible with Lawful Evil.


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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong View Post
    I can agree with most of your comment, but this particular line is going to need some backing up for me.
    You know how hate leads to anger, and anger leads to ennui, and ennui leads to gritty sand getting all over everything, and gritty sand leads to sores, and sores lead to staph infections, and staph infections lead to the dark side?

    Pretty obvious to me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    You know how hate leads to anger, and anger leads to ennui, and ennui leads to gritty sand getting all over everything, and gritty sand leads to sores, and sores lead to staph infections, and staph infections lead to the dark side?

    Pretty obvious to me
    That checks out.

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    You know how hate leads to anger, and anger leads to ennui, and ennui leads to gritty sand getting all over everything, and gritty sand leads to sores, and sores lead to staph infections, and staph infections lead to the dark side?

    Pretty obvious to me
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Somewhere, Peelee just got the worst sensation of somebody walking on his grave, and he doesnt know why.
    Now that's just silly.
    The dark side leads to indoor activities, wich leads to boredom, wich leads to edginess, wich leads to pre-mortem grave-dancing parties. Everyone knows that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Evil doesn't mean "brutally lusts for blood at every expense." It just means you're willing to hurt or see hurt people for bad or no reason.
    Getting the food necessary to survive is not a bad reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Like if I went to the grocery store and happened to murder someone unprovoked you would consider me neutral?
    Is your only other source of food a horrible cave full of dangerous monsters that can easily kill you and will you starve otherwise? Then yes, that's neutral.
    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Yeah, but there's also traits that, while are found in good people very often (loving other people, being brave, caring for pets or children), don't make an evil person somehow convert into neutral/good.

    I can't pin down what is a "inherently good trait", but the closest I can come up with is "compassion and respect for the lives and dignities of other people," which Oona, Belkar, Hilgya, Jirix, and Malack definitely don't possess.
    What? Oona respects the lives of Greyview, MitD, and Redcloak. Dignity is entirely irrelevant, especially in an arctic wasteland where you have to do certain things in order to survive. Just because her version of respect is different from ours doesn't make it any less valid. Now, I know this is a long shot, but her speech about how beasts must serve their masters could possibly be taken as "If you do not wish to serve your master, find a new one, or become your own master", which is a harsher version of O-Chul's lesson about the value of friends and their influence on you.

    I've got a quote somewhere on these forums, but love and compassion are inherently good traits. Compassion requires empathy, which is definitely against the selfish nature of Evil. And you can't have "love for others" as a motive without it starting to turn you away from Evil, which I believe applies to our Miss Oona here, as her clan and that is one of her main motivations for her actions. Yes, Nale and Sabine did love each other and were Evil, but their love for each other was not a motive for either of their goals.
    Last edited by WanderingMist; 2020-10-10 at 09:51 AM.

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingMist View Post
    Getting the food necessary to survive is not a bad reason.
    The fact that the seem to be surviving perfectly fine without having eaten the paladins would suggest that no, they were not food necessary for survival.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: What alignment is Oona?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    The fact that the seem to be surviving perfectly fine without having eaten the paladins would suggest that no, they were not food necessary for survival.
    So small though. But will grow in time.

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