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  1. - Top - End - #61

    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    As do you. I am simply arguing that both RAW and RAI seem to actually be that create bonfire, due to using "five foot cube" rather than "a space," should target potentially multiple creatures, and probably "between 1 and 4."

    I'm inclined to use the template method, because it's how I was already doing things like fireball.
    Understood, and while I don't find your argument convincing (for reasons noted above) I respect that your mind has not been changed by hearing my perspective and is not likely to change.

    (I don't know if you saw it earlier, but one situation where I would consider 1+d3 appropriate for Create Bonfire is if you cast it on a densely-packed horde of velociraptors or other Tiny creatures. Maybe even against a crowd of Medium humans packed tightly in an elevator--but not against Medium humans spread 5' apart in combat formation.)

    Good gaming to you, no matter how you rule AoEs.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-09-16 at 01:49 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I wouldn't call it cheese if it's what the designers intended. However, let's examine this from as many sources as possible.




    I note that a 5-ft. cube, divided by 5, affects one target. By the above rules, that's anywhere from 1 to 4 targets, based on how grouped up they are. (I assume the caster isn't dumb enough to place it to catch 0 targets, no matter how loosely-spaced they are, but if they're densely packed, the 1d3 extra targets would yield between 2 and 4 total targets.)
    Using this rule is interesting. You can place the square so its point of origin is at the "intersection" of any squares, and presumably orient it any way you like. Remember that the point of origin for a cube AoE is "anywhere on its face," so you're placing one face of it so it crosses any intersection of squares. I think the maximum number of squares you can make it thus intersect is, in fact, 5, with the choice of point of origin being a corner between four squares and the cube oriented diagonally, getting AoE into a + shape of five squares. You definitely can place the cube so that it's centered on a corner between four squares with this method; you place the point of origin at the center of one cube's face and at the center of an edge connecting two squares, and make the face of the cube perpendicular to the edge where the point of origin is.

    In fact, the wording about including the point of origin or not yields either 2 or 4 squares that are targeted, depending what you choose, just as if you'd positioned it either centered on a corner or centered on an edge's center. (You can, absolutely, also target exactly 1 square with it, making the point of origin be in the center of both the edge between two squares and the center of the cube's face, and aligning the face with the edge.)

    Then, if we look in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, it offers two more methods of adjudicating AoEs: Templates and Tokens.


    It's clear that, by this method, you can place the one-square-big template of a 5-ft. square however you like, as it's nearly impossible on a grid to not have one of its faces intersect an edge or corner of a square on the grid. And it says nothing about orientation, so you can hover it however is most advantageous, getting anywhere from 1 to 5 squares under it. (Actually, it'd be pretty difficult to get exactly 3. Not impossible, but tricky placement.)

    This one is the only method that absolutely limits a 5-foot cube to a single 5-foot square. It also is weirdly defined by the diagrams provided, for instance giving double-wide and single-wide "lines" as examples with no explanation as to why you'd use the double-wide by the rules, or, if it's an option, why you'd use the single-wide. It also doesn't tell you very well how to determine how many squares are included. The table from the DMG for estimating numbers of critters in an AoE isn't helpful, here, as it is assuming a less-than-densely-packed formation, with adding 1d3 to it if they're packed densely. Squares are packed more densely than that estimation under most circumstances.

    In all, from the most basic all the way up to the template method, they agree that a 5-foot square can theoretically target more than one creature, based on the rules for placement and adjudicating what squares are covered. While using roll20, I have been using the template method without having even read it from XGtE, though I have been more cagey about edge cases and will likely just be more generous with the AoEs in the future and count even partial coverage as being in it. (I'm thinking of my players' spherical spells right now.)

    It's worth discussing flaming sphere, here, too. It specifies that "a five-foot diameter sphere of fire appears in an unoccupied space of your choice within range," which is distinctly different from how sphere AoEs are described (always defined by their radius, not their diameter), and with specific targeting instructions that differ from the PHB's instructions for points of origin. This suggests that the flaming sphere's effect behaves more like a Medium-sized creature than like an AoE. It's also noteworthy that being adjacent to it causes damage, not just being in its space, so it's affected area is a 15-foot cube that has specific placement instructions (must be centered in a 3x3 grid oriented along the grid directions).

    Create bonfire doesn't have any such specific or different instructions. It just says "the magic bonfire fills a 5-foot cube." Which defaults us back to the AoE rules discussed above.

    I definitely see why people think that hitting more than one 5-foot square on the grid with a 5-foot cube is "cheese." It seems counterintuitive. But only one of several suggested adjudication methods - and that one the last one in an optional book - agrees with that restriction. The others all align to allow multiple creatures to be hit by it if sufficiently-densely packed. In fact, the most "basic" Theater of the Mind one allows for between 1 and 4 creatures to be hit by it, which is exactly what you'd expect if you placed the cube centered on the corner between four squares. The template version allows for up to 5, if placed just right. And the template version is the one that I think is the most straight-forward for any effect that isn't a square, and thus, for consistency, should probably be used for all of them if you're going to use it at all.

    To sum up: I understand why it sounds like cheese; my intuitive understanding of it was similar. But looking at the actual RAW and all suggested methods of adjudicating cube-shaped AoEs, I actually think it's both RAW and RAI that a 5-foot cube might target multiple creatures that are sufficiently close together.
    Kudos to you for thoroughly checking through the book when something doesn't match your intuitions. Just wanted to say that.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2020-09-16 at 05:12 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Great post Segev; I agree with almost all of it.

    The one thing I am less certain on is whether an edge between two squares would be classed as an intersection or not. In any case, it does not affect a cube in the case of 4 squares; just put the origin as the centre of the bottom face of the cube.

    It does affect whether you could affect 8 squares, however; an edge-as-valid would allow you to put that bottom face halfway vertically up a layer, thus being 4 squares on the bottom and another 4 squares above. Create Bonfire requires that it be placed on the 'ground' (some interpretation here is needed), however, there is nothing stopping there being a platform (think medal-award podium in sports) that would elevate it. Can't really ever see something like this being useful, though (unless... you can jump over Create Bonfire?).

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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimeryan View Post
    The one thing I am less certain on is whether an edge between two squares would be classed as an intersection or not. In any case, it does not affect a cube in the case of 4 squares; just put the origin as the centre of the bottom face of the cube.
    I could potentially see somebody claiming "intersection" has to be a corner, but there's no definition by which that's so. I don't know what the RAI was, though. Very good catch on placing the origin as the bottom face's center, though. I should've thought of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimeryan View Post
    It does affect whether you could affect 8 squares, however; an edge-as-valid would allow you to put that bottom face halfway vertically up a layer, thus being 4 squares on the bottom and another 4 squares above. Create Bonfire requires that it be placed on the 'ground' (some interpretation here is needed), however, there is nothing stopping there being a platform (think medal-award podium in sports) that would elevate it. Can't really ever see something like this being useful, though (unless... you can jump over Create Bonfire?).
    This is less likely to be critical simply because it really only matters if people are stacked on top of each other somehow, which is...rare and awkward, to say the least.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Then, if we look in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, it offers two more methods of adjudicating AoEs: Templates and Tokens.
    Xanther's also mentions snap-to-grid as a possibility.

    EDIT: Upon further review, I might be wrong about this. I would have sworn it did, but now I can't find it.
    Last edited by jh12; 2020-09-17 at 11:11 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by jh12 View Post
    Xanther's also mentions snap-to-grid as a possibility.
    Tokens more or less is snap-to-grid, right?

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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Tokens more or less is snap-to-grid, right?
    I think it is essentially the same for squares, but not for circles. Tokens turns circles into squares rather than worrying about whether it fills half a square.

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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by jh12 View Post
    I think it is essentially the same for squares, but not for circles. Tokens turns circles into squares rather than worrying about whether it fills half a square.
    Huh. How does "snap-to-grid" work for circles?

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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Huh. How does "snap-to-grid" work for circles?
    I think the smallest circle is a 5ft radius, which means the center of the circle must be in an intersection. That is, the edge touches the grid
    Last edited by heavyfuel; 2020-09-17 at 06:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    The "50% coverage" rule is explicitly only for circles/spheres. This is covered in the the DMG, reiterated in Xanathar's Guide, and reiterated again in Sage Advice.
    I would assume like this.

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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Dunno if anyone's raised the point, but supposing you were playing gridless, using rulers to measure distance (say 1 inch = 5 feet) and area templates, there'd be no question you could catch multiple creatures in the area if they were bunched up enough.
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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by Composer99 View Post
    Dunno if anyone's raised the point, but supposing you were playing gridless, using rulers to measure distance (say 1 inch = 5 feet) and area templates, there'd be no question you could catch multiple creatures in the area if they were bunched up enough.
    That makes perfect sense. I just don't like using a grid to force people to stand 5 feet on center (why are they in parade formation?) then letting a 5x5 box affect everyone in a 100 square foot area instead of just a 25 square foot area.

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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    I'd say it's intended to target one square's worth of swarms or something of that sort. If someone wanted to rotate the Bonfire's square so it impinged on several character squares, I'd be inclined to rotate the map grid right back at em.


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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by Laserlight View Post
    I'd say it's intended to target one square's worth of swarms or something of that sort. If someone wanted to rotate the Bonfire's square so it impinged on several character squares, I'd be inclined to rotate the map grid right back at em.


    YMMV.
    Swarms are already targeted as single creatures.

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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by jh12 View Post
    That makes perfect sense. I just don't like using a grid to force people to stand 5 feet on center (why are they in parade formation?) then letting a 5x5 box affect everyone in a 100 square foot area instead of just a 25 square foot area.
    This definitely feels weird. However, I find it similarly weird the 5x5 box of fire touches you and doesn't hurt. So it is still affecting everyone in a 25 square foot area, it's just that this includes people only partially inside the area.


    Okay, for a general rule though, I'd look at some other spells:

    Max area for Tidal Wave: 6 squares without this rule vs 12 squares with it.
    Max area of Erupting Earth: 16 squares without this rule or 25 squares with it.
    Max area for Lightning Bolt: 10 squares without this rule or 20 squares with it.
    Max area for Fireball: 44 I think, if we're counting by half the volume of each 5 foot space.

    While enemies are extremely unlikely to be bunched up one square each, this does make fireball less ridiculous. It has the worst damage type, so it being bigger is fine, but now it isn't hitting quite as disproportionate an area.

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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    This definitely feels weird. However, I find it similarly weird the 5x5 box of fire touches you and doesn't hurt. So it is still affecting everyone in a 25 square foot area, it's just that this includes people only partially inside the area.


    Okay, for a general rule though, I'd look at some other spells:

    Max area for Tidal Wave: 6 squares without this rule vs 12 squares with it.
    Max area of Erupting Earth: 16 squares without this rule or 25 squares with it.
    Max area for Lightning Bolt: 10 squares without this rule or 20 squares with it.
    Max area for Fireball: 44 I think, if we're counting by half the volume of each 5 foot space.

    While enemies are extremely unlikely to be bunched up one square each, this does make fireball less ridiculous. It has the worst damage type, so it being bigger is fine, but now it isn't hitting quite as disproportionate an area.
    On lightning bolt doubling its coverage, it's worth noting that the Xanathar's Guide tokens method shows both single-wide and double-wide line effects, with no explanation given. Perhaps this is the explanation that's missing.

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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    The fact that you can choose to make it target more or less squares also offers potential tactical options, for when you want to toast the enemy, but not your buddy.
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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    This definitely feels weird. However, I find it similarly weird the 5x5 box of fire touches you and doesn't hurt.
    Creatures don't fill their space.

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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    Creatures don't fill their space.
    But they do occupy it.

    A circle-edge that half fills the square is considered enough to target the occupant. This is indisputable. Even though a gnome might be in the furthest corner of the square from the circle-edge with plenty of room to spare.

    Cones and squares/cubes and lines seem to be even more generous to the caster, covering all squares that have any portion fall into the area. (And, with templates, I believe it said circles expand to any coverage counting, too, though I’m AFB and may be misremembering right now.)

    I’m unsure what the writers of Create Bonfire thought it’s given AoE allowed. However, of all the suggested methods of adjudicating how many targets get hit, only “tokens” yields a “snap to grid, single target only” result. Gridless ruler-measurement yields the possibility of multiple targets, quite obviously, as does template with or without grid. Even theater of the mind has rules that clearly allow for up to four targets if they’re grouped closely enough (and on a grid, a 2x2 square with four people in it is as tightly-grouped as you can get).

    While it’s not out of reason to rule that Create Bonfire can’t hit more than one target (barring targets literally sharing a space), it seems in line with the rules and intent that it could hit more. Especially with the Concentration requirement that makes it so that you can’t rely on it as your spam damage-dealer.

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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by Crucius View Post
    I'm curious, so let's do a little experiment:

    Please tell me if you think that a 5-foot cube should affect 4 squares, ignoring sage advice for now, and please note if you identify predominantly as a player or a DM.

    I'll start: It should not affect 4 squares. DM.
    Primarily a DM: should. Although, in practice, 4 squares is a bit of a stretch.

    I prefer playing theater of the mind, but when we do use a grid, I view it as primarily a visual aid, not a constraint on what's possible in the game world. So I would let a caster place their 5-foot cube without snapping to the grid lines, but I also wouldn't assume the creatures are all standing closer to the center corner than the outer corners (unless they were described as huddling with their backs together or something). I also tend to err on the side of the players when it comes to judgment calls. So I think my honest reaction would be to let a PC caster hit 3 targets, or to let an NPC caster hit at most 2 PCs. I also like the idea of giving advantage on the save to the 2nd PC target, if they have more maneuvering room.

    I'm also a big fan of 5th edition's philosophy of DM rulings over RAW—let each table adjust these kinds of rules to the table's best satisfaction.
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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    But they do occupy it.
    Yes, and? My post was specifically replying to the idea of the bonfire "touching" someone. That was a misguided appeal to realism. I'm not arguing your rules-based points.

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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by Crucius View Post
    I'm curious, so let's do a little experiment:

    Please tell me if you think that a 5-foot cube should affect 4 squares, ignoring sage advice for now, and please note if you identify predominantly as a player or a DM.

    I'll start: It should not affect 4 squares. DM.
    Half-time DM/player opinions:

    Should affect 2 non-diagonal adjacent squares. (Place on the midpoint between those two squares, rotate 45°.)

    Can mostly block a 10' hallway (would allow Small to squeeze and avoid).

    Case-by-case basis for a diagonal (or 4 squares), leaning toward no.

    Concentration and limit to non-diagonal are enough to be a relevant nerf vs Acid Splash.

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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    Yes, and? My post was specifically replying to the idea of the bonfire "touching" someone. That was a misguided appeal to realism. I'm not arguing your rules-based points.
    Fair enough. The appeal to realism argument could extend to convection, at that point, with the idea being that, if you do choose to place it solely in one five ft. square, creatures in adjacent squares can hedge to the far side of their squares enough to avoid the damage from convection, but if you place it such that it's partially in multiple squares, they can't quite get far enough away.

    Really, though, the realism argument should only be made as a fluffing of the mechanics, here, I think. The question is one of balance rather than one of verisimilitude. I think we can all figure out reasonable ways to envision verisimilitude.

    On only allowing it to hit four creatures bunched up in a 2x2 grid if they're described as being "back-to-back," it's worth noting that the expected targeting of creatures grouped up together to be 1+1d3 for a five-foot cube. Now, as a DM, you could argue that they're not "bunched up" if they're not shoulder-to-shoulder/back-to-back, but I will argue that such a ruling essentially negates anything being bunched together, and would result in the numbers estimated for the AoEs in the DMG in the table for theater of the mind being woefully under-estimating numbers hit with any template or even ruler-and-string method of measurement. Heck, even the token method would hit far more than that table would, if they're arranged in every grid square in the AoE. The table is clearly assuming that even "closely bunched" creatures are unevenly spaced and not occupying an average density of one creature per five foot square.

    If we take a five foot cube in a standard combat and assume that it always targets four squares on the grid, it still is likely to hit fewer than four creatures. How often are four creatures really bunched up in a 2x2 space?

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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    On only allowing it to hit four creatures bunched up in a 2x2 grid if they're described as being "back-to-back," it's worth noting that the expected targeting of creatures grouped up together to be 1+1d3 for a five-foot cube. Now, as a DM, you could argue that they're not "bunched up" if they're not shoulder-to-shoulder/back-to-back, but I will argue that such a ruling essentially negates anything being bunched together, and would result in the numbers estimated for the AoEs in the DMG in the table for theater of the mind being woefully under-estimating numbers hit with any template or even ruler-and-string method of measurement. Heck, even the token method would hit far more than that table would, if they're arranged in every grid square in the AoE. The table is clearly assuming that even "closely bunched" creatures are unevenly spaced and not occupying an average density of one creature per five foot square.

    If we take a five foot cube in a standard combat and assume that it always targets four squares on the grid, it still is likely to hit fewer than four creatures. How often are four creatures really bunched up in a 2x2 space?
    When I mentioned the "back-to-back" comment, I was specifically talking about using a grid and my likely in-the-moment decision-making as a DM. As far as analyzing the rules as the books give (and suggest) them, I think you've been dead-on with your analysis. Also, I realize most of your comments were not directed towards me, but since I brought up the "back-to-back" bit most recently, I felt like I should respond.

    As for "bunching up," a few things spring to mind in response to your comments here. Firstly, I don't think the advice on bunching up applies when a grid is in use, since its primary purpose is when you don't know the exact positions of the enemies. You seem to agree with that, but I just wanted to be clear. Secondly, most areas of effect will be considerably larger than a 5-foot cube, so I think it's understandable if the 1d3 rule of thumb were to be slightly less applicable on the extreme end of the scale. Similarly, you might be inclined to roll 1d6 or more for a very large area of effect, since it would be easier to bunch more creatures into such an area if they're truly bunched together, but just giving a flat 1d3 as the rule of thumb is a good, simpler rule for advising DMs. And in my example, I suggested I would probably let a PC target 3 creatures in an ad-hoc ruling, which lines up with the average result of 1+1d3.

    Also, I just went and reread the Create bonfire spell text, and it interestingly does use the terminology of targeting creatures "in the bonfire's space." I think that wording strengthens the argument that the spell writer intended the spell to take up exactly one five-foot space, like a medium creature (compare with Fireball: "in a 20-foot radius sphere," Grease: "standing in its area," Lightning bolt: "in the line"). However, if that was the writer's intent, they were not fully cognizant of the rules for placing an area of effect, or they would have used a wording such as in Flaming sphere ("A 5-foot diameter sphere of fire appears in an unoccupied space...").
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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    If we take a five foot cube in a standard combat and assume that it always targets four squares on the grid, it still is likely to hit fewer than four creatures. How often are four creatures really bunched up in a 2x2 space?
    This, right here. I think people are scared away by the mere potential to hit four creatures, but the reality is that you'll only rarely see creatures standing in a 2x2 formation. And, once you cast this spell, they're likely to avoid grouping up for the rest of the fight. Even hitting two creatures consistently is going to be a problem, otherwise Acid Splash would be more highly valued. When it comes down to it, Create Bonfire is good in the right situations, but you still won't be casting it most of the time because either (a) you're concentrating on another spell, or (b) the enemies aren't standing close enough together. It's also still fire damage, so DMs have plenty of options for fire resistant or immune enemies.

    If Create Bonfire only affects a 1x1 area, then it's pretty lackluster. Hardly worth taking unless you have some way of pushing people back into it (e.g. Repelling Blast). Making it affect a 2x2 area makes it much better. But you'll still use other damage cantrips. If you can only hit one enemy, then Fire Bolt does more damage, while other spells such as Chill Touch or Frostbite have riders. Concentration also really limits when you can use it. It makes Create Bonfire a good spell, but not so good that you'd never take or cast another damage cantrip. And if you rely on concentration spells a lot, it might not even be worth taking Create Bonfire in the first place.

    Anyway, this thread has kind of gotten off topic. But from what I gather, Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast is, indeed, an effective and fun combo, particularly with party members who can also use the bonfire, e.g. grapplers.

  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegan Squirrel View Post
    Also, I just went and reread the Create bonfire spell text, and it interestingly does use the terminology of targeting creatures "in the bonfire's space." I think that wording strengthens the argument that the spell writer intended the spell to take up exactly one five-foot space, like a medium creature (compare with Fireball: "in a 20-foot radius sphere," Grease: "standing in its area," Lightning bolt: "in the line"). However, if that was the writer's intent, they were not fully cognizant of the rules for placing an area of effect, or they would have used a wording such as in Flaming sphere ("A 5-foot diameter sphere of fire appears in an unoccupied space...").
    Yeah, that's the trouble with somewhat counter-intuitive core mechanics: you can never be sure if the writer of the specific thing you're looking at was aware of what they were writing, or if they thought they were saying something different than they were. RAI of the Core Rules seems to be that a 5-foot cube should be able to target multiple Medium creatures if they're all adjacent to each other. RAI of the spell-writer of create bonfire is harder to judge. Especially since there are also editors and line editors through whom it went; did they miss something, or did they agree with the core rule interpretation?

    While I have been making a mostly-RAW and somewhat-RAI analysis up to now, my final determination as a DM would be to go with the permissive template-placement method (up to 5, if they're in a +) because it's actually rarer than one might think to have creatures arranged so conveniently, and it makes it actually worth having a second damage-dealing cantrip.

    As I've mentioned before, the Concentration on create bonfire has a major problem in that it essentially makes you NEED another damage cantrip, because the purpose of a damage cantrip is to have a reliable spell damage source when you are out of or don't want to spend spell slots.

    Well, you could use a crossbow, I guess, but it'll be unlikely that you'll be as accurate or do as much damage as with a spell attack.

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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    I dont know if this has been brought up, but to everyone argueing as to whether or not it should affect 4 squares by the same reading you can also turn it 45 degrees to instead have it affect 5 squares in a15ft x 15ft cross shape as the 4 corners of the bonfire area will each overlap a separate square on the grid. This has the benefit of affecting up to 4 non adjacent creatures. Or up to 5 adjacent ones

    Personally, I find this even more ridiculous of a way to rule but as a player if my DM were allowing these rules to work as written why not go for broke.

    My argument against it is that if spell affects are not restrained by squares on the grid, why should pcs be. And if pc's are not restricted then they could be half on one square and half on another such that they dont overlap the same half of the square as the bonfire, and at that point grid based combat becomes nonsensical.
    Last edited by clash; 2020-09-18 at 03:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by clash View Post
    My argument against it is that if spell affects are not restrained by squares on the grid, why should pcs be. And if pc's are not restricted then they could be half on one square and half on another such that they dont overlap the same half of the square as the bonfire, and at that point grid based combat becomes nonsensical.
    While I can agree that the rules indicate character should occupy specific squares, I don't think the grid is nonsensical in the slightest if PCs are allowed to stand between squares. It basically builds a ruler into the map so it's easy to see how far apart things are and it lets you draw rooms, walls, and obstacles to scale to better visualize the scene. It's useful for reference, kind of like yard lines or social distance marks every 6 feet on the floor in stores—you don't have to stand on them for them to help you visualize distance.

    This is also a case where I think there's a difference between a physical battle mat and a gridded digital map. I imagine it's simpler to just snap everything to the grid on a virtual tabletop, but on a real one I'd rather allow for situational flexibility (even if, in practice, we just assume everyone's centered in a square most of the time).
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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by clash View Post
    My argument against it is that if spell affects are not restrained by squares on the grid, why should pcs be.
    Under what circumstances would you not want your PC to snap to the grid? Such a situation might come up, but only rarely. I just don't see this being useful on a regular basis, but also have no problem allowing it if it's actually going to make a difference. The same is true for AoE effects, except that it might be useful more regularly to not snap them to the grid.

    But I can see certain ridiculous arising from this, e.g. "I stand six feet way from my party member, so that we can't get caught in AoE effects as easily." At which point you might as well not even use the grid. Maybe the solution here is to still treat the creature as standing in one specific space, even if they're "off-grid", and use that for the purposed of AoE. So sure, you might be 6 feet away, but you're still mostly in the space that is only 5 feet away, and are therefore in range of the AoE. You can still use the "squeeze into a smaller space" rules to move around an AoE that is partially in your space, but that has other mechanical consequences.

    As for rotating the bonfire 45 degrees to affect a 5 square cross shape, I don't know about that. While the rules do seem to say that any coverage means that the space in affected, I feel like the images also show some spaces that only have a tiny amount of coverage (<5%) and it doesn't show that space as being affected by the AoE. It seems like there is a line somewhere, but I'm not sure what it is. 1% coverage doesn't seem like it would be enough, but 25% does. What about 10%? 5%? Etc.

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    Default Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast

    I mentioned the + shape of five squares in my discussion; it does seem to be RAW.

    As to grid-snapping for PCs but not templates, that also seems to be intent. In fact, the intent is not to use grid or even a map at all, by default. But they provide rules and suggestions for how to do so. If you want to use ruler-and-string to move freeform across the map, more power to you. You'll find that the placement of the 5-ft. cube naturally invites catching multiple creatures in it if they're close enough together. The rules for this, in fact, say that any creature whose "base" falls under the template is caught in the AoE.

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