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Thread: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast
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2020-09-16, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast
Understood, and while I don't find your argument convincing (for reasons noted above) I respect that your mind has not been changed by hearing my perspective and is not likely to change.
(I don't know if you saw it earlier, but one situation where I would consider 1+d3 appropriate for Create Bonfire is if you cast it on a densely-packed horde of velociraptors or other Tiny creatures. Maybe even against a crowd of Medium humans packed tightly in an elevator--but not against Medium humans spread 5' apart in combat formation.)
Good gaming to you, no matter how you rule AoEs.Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-09-16 at 01:49 PM.
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2020-09-16, 05:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast
Last edited by LudicSavant; 2020-09-16 at 05:12 PM.
Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
Nerull | Wee Jas | Olidammara | Erythnul | Hextor | Corellon Larethian | Lolth | The Deep Ones
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2020-09-16, 07:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast
Great post Segev; I agree with almost all of it.
The one thing I am less certain on is whether an edge between two squares would be classed as an intersection or not. In any case, it does not affect a cube in the case of 4 squares; just put the origin as the centre of the bottom face of the cube.
It does affect whether you could affect 8 squares, however; an edge-as-valid would allow you to put that bottom face halfway vertically up a layer, thus being 4 squares on the bottom and another 4 squares above. Create Bonfire requires that it be placed on the 'ground' (some interpretation here is needed), however, there is nothing stopping there being a platform (think medal-award podium in sports) that would elevate it. Can't really ever see something like this being useful, though (unless... you can jump over Create Bonfire?).
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2020-09-16, 07:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast
I could potentially see somebody claiming "intersection" has to be a corner, but there's no definition by which that's so. I don't know what the RAI was, though. Very good catch on placing the origin as the bottom face's center, though. I should've thought of that.
This is less likely to be critical simply because it really only matters if people are stacked on top of each other somehow, which is...rare and awkward, to say the least.
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2020-09-17, 05:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-09-17, 05:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-09-17, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-09-17, 05:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-09-17, 06:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast
Last edited by heavyfuel; 2020-09-17 at 06:06 PM.
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2020-09-17, 06:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-09-17, 06:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast
Dunno if anyone's raised the point, but supposing you were playing gridless, using rulers to measure distance (say 1 inch = 5 feet) and area templates, there'd be no question you could catch multiple creatures in the area if they were bunched up enough.
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2020-09-17, 06:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast
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2020-09-17, 07:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast
I'd say it's intended to target one square's worth of swarms or something of that sort. If someone wanted to rotate the Bonfire's square so it impinged on several character squares, I'd be inclined to rotate the map grid right back at em.
YMMV.Junior, half orc paladin of the Order of St Dale the Intimidator: "Ah cain't abide no murderin' scoundrel."
Tactical Precepts: 1) Cause chaos, then exploit it; 2) No plan survives contact with...(sigh)...my subordinates.
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2020-09-17, 07:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-09-17, 08:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast
This definitely feels weird. However, I find it similarly weird the 5x5 box of fire touches you and doesn't hurt. So it is still affecting everyone in a 25 square foot area, it's just that this includes people only partially inside the area.
Okay, for a general rule though, I'd look at some other spells:
Max area for Tidal Wave: 6 squares without this rule vs 12 squares with it.
Max area of Erupting Earth: 16 squares without this rule or 25 squares with it.
Max area for Lightning Bolt: 10 squares without this rule or 20 squares with it.
Max area for Fireball: 44 I think, if we're counting by half the volume of each 5 foot space.
While enemies are extremely unlikely to be bunched up one square each, this does make fireball less ridiculous. It has the worst damage type, so it being bigger is fine, but now it isn't hitting quite as disproportionate an area.
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2020-09-17, 08:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-09-17, 09:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast
The fact that you can choose to make it target more or less squares also offers potential tactical options, for when you want to toast the enemy, but not your buddy.
Reality is relative, and there is an exception to every rule.
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2020-09-18, 02:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-09-18, 07:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast
But they do occupy it.
A circle-edge that half fills the square is considered enough to target the occupant. This is indisputable. Even though a gnome might be in the furthest corner of the square from the circle-edge with plenty of room to spare.
Cones and squares/cubes and lines seem to be even more generous to the caster, covering all squares that have any portion fall into the area. (And, with templates, I believe it said circles expand to any coverage counting, too, though I’m AFB and may be misremembering right now.)
I’m unsure what the writers of Create Bonfire thought it’s given AoE allowed. However, of all the suggested methods of adjudicating how many targets get hit, only “tokens” yields a “snap to grid, single target only” result. Gridless ruler-measurement yields the possibility of multiple targets, quite obviously, as does template with or without grid. Even theater of the mind has rules that clearly allow for up to four targets if they’re grouped closely enough (and on a grid, a 2x2 square with four people in it is as tightly-grouped as you can get).
While it’s not out of reason to rule that Create Bonfire can’t hit more than one target (barring targets literally sharing a space), it seems in line with the rules and intent that it could hit more. Especially with the Concentration requirement that makes it so that you can’t rely on it as your spam damage-dealer.
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2020-09-18, 09:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast
Primarily a DM: should. Although, in practice, 4 squares is a bit of a stretch.
I prefer playing theater of the mind, but when we do use a grid, I view it as primarily a visual aid, not a constraint on what's possible in the game world. So I would let a caster place their 5-foot cube without snapping to the grid lines, but I also wouldn't assume the creatures are all standing closer to the center corner than the outer corners (unless they were described as huddling with their backs together or something). I also tend to err on the side of the players when it comes to judgment calls. So I think my honest reaction would be to let a PC caster hit 3 targets, or to let an NPC caster hit at most 2 PCs. I also like the idea of giving advantage on the save to the 2nd PC target, if they have more maneuvering room.
I'm also a big fan of 5th edition's philosophy of DM rulings over RAW—let each table adjust these kinds of rules to the table's best satisfaction.My 5e Monster Repository (a modest collection)
5e Quick, ad-hoc task DCs — Simple: 8 | Normal: 13 | Challenging: 18 | Formidable: 23
5e Quick, ad-hoc monsters — AC: 12 + level/2 | HP: 10 × level | To-Hit: 2 + level/2 | DPR: 4 × level
1 monster v. 1 PC; for 4 v. 1 Solos — +2 to AC & To-Hit | HP: 25 × level | DPR: 10 × level5e Quick, ad-hoc monster treasure — CR2 × tier gp
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2020-09-18, 09:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-09-18, 09:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast
Half-time DM/player opinions:
Should affect 2 non-diagonal adjacent squares. (Place on the midpoint between those two squares, rotate 45°.)
Can mostly block a 10' hallway (would allow Small to squeeze and avoid).
Case-by-case basis for a diagonal (or 4 squares), leaning toward no.
Concentration and limit to non-diagonal are enough to be a relevant nerf vs Acid Splash.
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2020-09-18, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast
Fair enough. The appeal to realism argument could extend to convection, at that point, with the idea being that, if you do choose to place it solely in one five ft. square, creatures in adjacent squares can hedge to the far side of their squares enough to avoid the damage from convection, but if you place it such that it's partially in multiple squares, they can't quite get far enough away.
Really, though, the realism argument should only be made as a fluffing of the mechanics, here, I think. The question is one of balance rather than one of verisimilitude. I think we can all figure out reasonable ways to envision verisimilitude.
On only allowing it to hit four creatures bunched up in a 2x2 grid if they're described as being "back-to-back," it's worth noting that the expected targeting of creatures grouped up together to be 1+1d3 for a five-foot cube. Now, as a DM, you could argue that they're not "bunched up" if they're not shoulder-to-shoulder/back-to-back, but I will argue that such a ruling essentially negates anything being bunched together, and would result in the numbers estimated for the AoEs in the DMG in the table for theater of the mind being woefully under-estimating numbers hit with any template or even ruler-and-string method of measurement. Heck, even the token method would hit far more than that table would, if they're arranged in every grid square in the AoE. The table is clearly assuming that even "closely bunched" creatures are unevenly spaced and not occupying an average density of one creature per five foot square.
If we take a five foot cube in a standard combat and assume that it always targets four squares on the grid, it still is likely to hit fewer than four creatures. How often are four creatures really bunched up in a 2x2 space?
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2020-09-18, 10:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast
When I mentioned the "back-to-back" comment, I was specifically talking about using a grid and my likely in-the-moment decision-making as a DM. As far as analyzing the rules as the books give (and suggest) them, I think you've been dead-on with your analysis. Also, I realize most of your comments were not directed towards me, but since I brought up the "back-to-back" bit most recently, I felt like I should respond.
As for "bunching up," a few things spring to mind in response to your comments here. Firstly, I don't think the advice on bunching up applies when a grid is in use, since its primary purpose is when you don't know the exact positions of the enemies. You seem to agree with that, but I just wanted to be clear. Secondly, most areas of effect will be considerably larger than a 5-foot cube, so I think it's understandable if the 1d3 rule of thumb were to be slightly less applicable on the extreme end of the scale. Similarly, you might be inclined to roll 1d6 or more for a very large area of effect, since it would be easier to bunch more creatures into such an area if they're truly bunched together, but just giving a flat 1d3 as the rule of thumb is a good, simpler rule for advising DMs. And in my example, I suggested I would probably let a PC target 3 creatures in an ad-hoc ruling, which lines up with the average result of 1+1d3.
Also, I just went and reread the Create bonfire spell text, and it interestingly does use the terminology of targeting creatures "in the bonfire's space." I think that wording strengthens the argument that the spell writer intended the spell to take up exactly one five-foot space, like a medium creature (compare with Fireball: "in a 20-foot radius sphere," Grease: "standing in its area," Lightning bolt: "in the line"). However, if that was the writer's intent, they were not fully cognizant of the rules for placing an area of effect, or they would have used a wording such as in Flaming sphere ("A 5-foot diameter sphere of fire appears in an unoccupied space...").My 5e Monster Repository (a modest collection)
5e Quick, ad-hoc task DCs — Simple: 8 | Normal: 13 | Challenging: 18 | Formidable: 23
5e Quick, ad-hoc monsters — AC: 12 + level/2 | HP: 10 × level | To-Hit: 2 + level/2 | DPR: 4 × level
1 monster v. 1 PC; for 4 v. 1 Solos — +2 to AC & To-Hit | HP: 25 × level | DPR: 10 × level5e Quick, ad-hoc monster treasure — CR2 × tier gp
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2020-09-18, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast
This, right here. I think people are scared away by the mere potential to hit four creatures, but the reality is that you'll only rarely see creatures standing in a 2x2 formation. And, once you cast this spell, they're likely to avoid grouping up for the rest of the fight. Even hitting two creatures consistently is going to be a problem, otherwise Acid Splash would be more highly valued. When it comes down to it, Create Bonfire is good in the right situations, but you still won't be casting it most of the time because either (a) you're concentrating on another spell, or (b) the enemies aren't standing close enough together. It's also still fire damage, so DMs have plenty of options for fire resistant or immune enemies.
If Create Bonfire only affects a 1x1 area, then it's pretty lackluster. Hardly worth taking unless you have some way of pushing people back into it (e.g. Repelling Blast). Making it affect a 2x2 area makes it much better. But you'll still use other damage cantrips. If you can only hit one enemy, then Fire Bolt does more damage, while other spells such as Chill Touch or Frostbite have riders. Concentration also really limits when you can use it. It makes Create Bonfire a good spell, but not so good that you'd never take or cast another damage cantrip. And if you rely on concentration spells a lot, it might not even be worth taking Create Bonfire in the first place.
Anyway, this thread has kind of gotten off topic. But from what I gather, Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast is, indeed, an effective and fun combo, particularly with party members who can also use the bonfire, e.g. grapplers.
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2020-09-18, 10:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast
Yeah, that's the trouble with somewhat counter-intuitive core mechanics: you can never be sure if the writer of the specific thing you're looking at was aware of what they were writing, or if they thought they were saying something different than they were. RAI of the Core Rules seems to be that a 5-foot cube should be able to target multiple Medium creatures if they're all adjacent to each other. RAI of the spell-writer of create bonfire is harder to judge. Especially since there are also editors and line editors through whom it went; did they miss something, or did they agree with the core rule interpretation?
While I have been making a mostly-RAW and somewhat-RAI analysis up to now, my final determination as a DM would be to go with the permissive template-placement method (up to 5, if they're in a +) because it's actually rarer than one might think to have creatures arranged so conveniently, and it makes it actually worth having a second damage-dealing cantrip.
As I've mentioned before, the Concentration on create bonfire has a major problem in that it essentially makes you NEED another damage cantrip, because the purpose of a damage cantrip is to have a reliable spell damage source when you are out of or don't want to spend spell slots.
Well, you could use a crossbow, I guess, but it'll be unlikely that you'll be as accurate or do as much damage as with a spell attack.
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2020-09-18, 03:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast
I dont know if this has been brought up, but to everyone argueing as to whether or not it should affect 4 squares by the same reading you can also turn it 45 degrees to instead have it affect 5 squares in a15ft x 15ft cross shape as the 4 corners of the bonfire area will each overlap a separate square on the grid. This has the benefit of affecting up to 4 non adjacent creatures. Or up to 5 adjacent ones
Personally, I find this even more ridiculous of a way to rule but as a player if my DM were allowing these rules to work as written why not go for broke.
My argument against it is that if spell affects are not restrained by squares on the grid, why should pcs be. And if pc's are not restricted then they could be half on one square and half on another such that they dont overlap the same half of the square as the bonfire, and at that point grid based combat becomes nonsensical.Last edited by clash; 2020-09-18 at 03:38 PM.
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2020-09-18, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast
While I can agree that the rules indicate character should occupy specific squares, I don't think the grid is nonsensical in the slightest if PCs are allowed to stand between squares. It basically builds a ruler into the map so it's easy to see how far apart things are and it lets you draw rooms, walls, and obstacles to scale to better visualize the scene. It's useful for reference, kind of like yard lines or social distance marks every 6 feet on the floor in stores—you don't have to stand on them for them to help you visualize distance.
This is also a case where I think there's a difference between a physical battle mat and a gridded digital map. I imagine it's simpler to just snap everything to the grid on a virtual tabletop, but on a real one I'd rather allow for situational flexibility (even if, in practice, we just assume everyone's centered in a square most of the time).My 5e Monster Repository (a modest collection)
5e Quick, ad-hoc task DCs — Simple: 8 | Normal: 13 | Challenging: 18 | Formidable: 23
5e Quick, ad-hoc monsters — AC: 12 + level/2 | HP: 10 × level | To-Hit: 2 + level/2 | DPR: 4 × level
1 monster v. 1 PC; for 4 v. 1 Solos — +2 to AC & To-Hit | HP: 25 × level | DPR: 10 × level5e Quick, ad-hoc monster treasure — CR2 × tier gp
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2020-09-18, 05:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast
Under what circumstances would you not want your PC to snap to the grid? Such a situation might come up, but only rarely. I just don't see this being useful on a regular basis, but also have no problem allowing it if it's actually going to make a difference. The same is true for AoE effects, except that it might be useful more regularly to not snap them to the grid.
But I can see certain ridiculous arising from this, e.g. "I stand six feet way from my party member, so that we can't get caught in AoE effects as easily." At which point you might as well not even use the grid. Maybe the solution here is to still treat the creature as standing in one specific space, even if they're "off-grid", and use that for the purposed of AoE. So sure, you might be 6 feet away, but you're still mostly in the space that is only 5 feet away, and are therefore in range of the AoE. You can still use the "squeeze into a smaller space" rules to move around an AoE that is partially in your space, but that has other mechanical consequences.
As for rotating the bonfire 45 degrees to affect a 5 square cross shape, I don't know about that. While the rules do seem to say that any coverage means that the space in affected, I feel like the images also show some spaces that only have a tiny amount of coverage (<5%) and it doesn't show that space as being affected by the AoE. It seems like there is a line somewhere, but I'm not sure what it is. 1% coverage doesn't seem like it would be enough, but 25% does. What about 10%? 5%? Etc.
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2020-09-18, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Create Bonfire + Repelling Blast
I mentioned the + shape of five squares in my discussion; it does seem to be RAW.
As to grid-snapping for PCs but not templates, that also seems to be intent. In fact, the intent is not to use grid or even a map at all, by default. But they provide rules and suggestions for how to do so. If you want to use ruler-and-string to move freeform across the map, more power to you. You'll find that the placement of the 5-ft. cube naturally invites catching multiple creatures in it if they're close enough together. The rules for this, in fact, say that any creature whose "base" falls under the template is caught in the AoE.