Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 28 of 41 FirstFirst ... 3181920212223242526272829303132333435363738 ... LastLast
Results 811 to 840 of 1209
  1. - Top - End - #811
    Troll in the Playground
     
    druid91's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Lemuria
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Clertar View Post
    My worry moving forward is that the series will rely on derivative inertia rather than creating original content and characters like it did in the first season. More Baby Yoda, Kuil and that droid, and less Bo Katan, Boba Fett and Luke Skywalker. With the SWCU on the horizon, I feel that at some point the fandom will be less famined for just any SW content and will start expecting real original content, rather than funneling plotlines and characters from previous shows.

    If there was a TV series that took place in Middle Earth after the War of the Ring, I would want it to be exploring new parts of the lore and give us more of that world. I would not want a main character that's another eccentric hobbit and he keeps coming across Legolas in one episode, and Faramir on another one, and at the season finale Gandalf shows up at the last minute to save the day. But that's me.
    I mean to be fair. Let's be real. The Star Wars EU is several hundred books most of which are about some subset of characters who were in three movies and occasionally added in new unique characters but...

    And people bought it. People liked it.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarZero View Post
    I like the "hobo" in there.
    "Hey, you just got 10000gp! You going to buy a fully staffed mansion or something?"
    "Nah, I'll upgrade my +2 sword to a +3 sword and sleep in my cloak."

    Non est salvatori salvator, neque defensori dominus, nec pater nec mater, nihil supernum.

    Torumekian knight Avatar by Licoot.

    Note to self: Never get involved in an ethics thread again...Especially if I'm defending the empire.

  2. - Top - End - #812
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2015

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by druid91 View Post
    I mean to be fair. Let's be real. The Star Wars EU is several hundred books most of which are about some subset of characters who were in three movies and occasionally added in new unique characters but...

    And people bought it. People liked it.
    Yes, but by the time Legends came to an end the post-ROTJ portion of the EU had gotten extremely stale, something that was measurable in terms of drastically reduced sales numbers for publications like the Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi novel series. At the same time a number of extremely successful Star Wars products thrived with little to no connection to the OT or PT film characters at all, particularly in the realm of video games ranging from the Kyle Katarn starring Dark Forces series to KOTOR.

    Star Wars was formed as a visual medium, and it relies heavily on certain elements of visual iconography. Fully text-based works that haven't been able to utilize the existing visuals, including character designs, of some other Star Wars source (usually the films) have struggled. This is a major reason why original characters introduced in comics and games tend to do better with the fandom than original characters introduced purely in prose. The Mandalorian is actually perfectly demonstrative of this: Baby Yoda is a sensationally popular character purely on the strength of visual iconography, and we only have 'Mandalorians' as a thing at all because Boba Fett happened to possess one of the coolness designs ever supplied to a minor character in the history of moviemaking all the way back in ESB.

    New shows about new or unexplored portions of the Star Wars universe can work and be popular just fine, but they need to look like Star Wars and they need to look cool. That's all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren
    This is why I'm optimistic about Rian Johnson's trilogy.
    Um...this isn't actually a thing. Rian Johnson claims he's still doing a trilogy (possibly for legal reasons, maybe he thinks he can get some money for breach of contract), but Lucasfilm is utterly silent on the subject and has very conspicuously left any mention of such a project out of all announcements. In any case there's no unclaimed Star Wars films projects slatted prior to 2027, and Johnson's currently working on a Knives Out sequel. Anything 7+ years out in Hollywood isn't real, it's just smoke and mirrors. Johnson could conceivably direct a Star Wars project in the future, anything's possible, but it won't be whatever the initial concept proposed in 2017 was.
    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

  3. - Top - End - #813
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Yes, but by the time Legends came to an end the post-ROTJ portion of the EU had gotten extremely stale, something that was measurable in terms of drastically reduced sales numbers for publications like the Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi novel series.
    LotF and FotJ being absolute **** didn't help.
    Spoiler: Avatar by always-awesome Cuthalion
    Show
    Spoiler: Come down with fire
    Show
    Spoiler: Lift my spirit higher
    Show
    Spoiler: Someone's screaming my name
    Show
    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    We're from Europe, not a mirror dimension.

  4. - Top - End - #814
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Um...this isn't actually a thing. Rian Johnson claims he's still doing a trilogy (possibly for legal reasons, maybe he thinks he can get some money for breach of contract), but Lucasfilm is utterly silent on the subject and has very conspicuously left any mention of such a project out of all announcements. In any case there's no unclaimed Star Wars films projects slatted prior to 2027, and Johnson's currently working on a Knives Out sequel. Anything 7+ years out in Hollywood isn't real, it's just smoke and mirrors. Johnson could conceivably direct a Star Wars project in the future, anything's possible, but it won't be whatever the initial concept proposed in 2017 was.
    I guess we'll see, won't we?

    And regardless, even if I'm wrong and they don't go with this, my point stands - the simple fact is that they have to do something new with the property eventually. There's only so many times we can go to Tatooine or blow up a not-Death-Star.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  5. - Top - End - #815
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    And regardless, even if I'm wrong and they don't go with this, my point stands - the simple fact is that they have to do something new with the property eventually. There's only so many times we can go to Tatooine or blow up a not-Death-Star.
    I, for one, am excited to see where Taika Waititi goes with his movie.
    Spoiler: Avatar by always-awesome Cuthalion
    Show
    Spoiler: Come down with fire
    Show
    Spoiler: Lift my spirit higher
    Show
    Spoiler: Someone's screaming my name
    Show
    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    We're from Europe, not a mirror dimension.

  6. - Top - End - #816
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    LotF and FotJ being absolute **** didn't help.
    I was going to say, didnt they sell low because everybody hated them?
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  7. - Top - End - #817
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2015

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I was going to say, didnt they sell low because everybody hated them?
    They were bad, yes, but there had been awful pieces of EU material before that had sold considerably better.

    There were legitimately high barriers to entry to understand what was going on in those books. Readers had to understand the general contours of the post-ROTJ Era up to peace with the Imperial Remnant and recognize key events and participants in the Yuuzhan Vong War and the subsequent Dark Nest crisis, and FotJ also expected readers to have watched the Mortis Arc of TCW. It was a lot, so the pool of fans inclined to even give the books a chance was drastically diminished compared to something like the X-Wing novels, which require nothing beyond having seen the OT.

    We can seen hints of this sort of thing in The Mandalorian, which carefully avoided having Ahsoka say "I'm not a Jedi" upon meeting the Mando to avoid confusion among viewers who hadn't seen TCW in its entirety and used the Child of the Watch splinter sect identity as a means to introduce the full complexities of Mandalorian culture gradually even though that meant retreading a bunch of ground known to TCW and Rebels fans.

    There's a very real danger, in franchise fiction, of getting drawn so far into a lore spiral that later works become utterly impenetrable to all but a small group of hard-to-please superfans (this is the phenomenon that periodically forces major comics timelines to reboot). This is definitely a risk faced by the Mandalorian nd by Disney Star Wars TV generally. Splitting the stories apart into many different shows channels that risk in specific ways. It makes it easier to prevent any one show from becoming impenetrable, but increases the threat that some critically important overarching plot to a whole bunch of shows will end up buried in the depths of something terrible that gets canceled. Personally, I assume that the big plot of the overarching Disney post-RotJ timeline is going to come out of Ahsoka and feature a certain tall blue personage, so that's the upcoming show that matters the most.
    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

  8. - Top - End - #818
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Wyoming
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I guess we'll see, won't we?

    And regardless, even if I'm wrong and they don't go with this, my point stands - the simple fact is that they have to do something new with the property eventually. There's only so many times we can go to Tatooine or blow up a not-Death-Star.
    Only every single trilogy.

    I mean, they went there in the OT.
    They went there in the PT.
    And they went there in the ST(Jakku, but same difference).

    They blew up the Death Star twice in the OT.
    They blew up all sorts of big things in the PT (little Anakin blowing up the droid control ship was totally a death-star analog).
    They blew up a super-duper Death Star in the ST, and then a really big ship, and then a whole fleet!

    I mean, I don't begrudge Star Wars for replaying a recipe that works. That's very Star Wars. They start out with a nobody from nowhere who becomes a somebody who blows up something huge, maybe more than once! Everyone goes home happy, the galaxy is saved, repeat in 20 years.
    Knowledge brings the sting of disillusionment, but the pain teaches perspective.
    "You know it's all fake right?"
    "...yeah, but it makes me feel better."

  9. - Top - End - #819
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by False God View Post
    Only every single trilogy.

    I mean, they went there in the OT.
    They went there in the PT.
    And they went there in the ST(Jakku, but same difference).

    They blew up the Death Star twice in the OT.
    They blew up all sorts of big things in the PT (little Anakin blowing up the droid control ship was totally a death-star analog).
    They blew up a super-duper Death Star in the ST, and then a really big ship, and then a whole fleet!

    I mean, I don't begrudge Star Wars for replaying a recipe that works. That's very Star Wars. They start out with a nobody from nowhere who becomes a somebody who blows up something huge, maybe more than once! Everyone goes home happy, the galaxy is saved, repeat in 20 years.
    Except, of course, they're not allowed to be a nobody from nowhere any more. They've got to be related to like the same three people over and over again.

    The fans demand it.

  10. - Top - End - #820
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Dec 2019

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Except, of course, they're not allowed to be a nobody from nowhere any more. They've got to be related to like the same three people over and over again.

    The fans demand it.
    I've never really agreed with that position. No one is clamoring for Din to be Han Solo's lost offspring, I don't remember any theories that Ezra Bridger was somehow Luke's brother and I think hardly anyone would have cared if Rey had just been a Jakku orphan from the start.

    But JJ and his mystery boxes had to start selling the idea that her origin was some super secret that he had no good way of finding a satisfactory answer for.

  11. - Top - End - #821
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tyndmyr's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    , and Johnson's currently working on a Knives Out sequel. Anything 7+ years out in Hollywood isn't real, it's just smoke and mirrors. Johnson could conceivably direct a Star Wars project in the future, anything's possible, but it won't be whatever the initial concept proposed in 2017 was.
    While I absolutely agree with your statement regarding Hollywood guessing....why on earth would Knives Out need a sequel? It's a glorious film, but it's basically a perfectly encapsulated movie. There doesn't seem to be any particular reason to make a sequel of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    There's basically two requirements to make a good Star Wars product. The ability to make a good show/movie/comic/novel generally and the ability to understand Star Wars well enough to get the feel of the universe. In the case of The Mandalorian Jon Favreau supplies the former and Dave Filoni supplies the latter.

    Filoni is taking on a growing role in Lucasfilm's live-action shows (he's long been top dog in the animation zone) and is credited as executive producer on a number of the forthcoming offerings including Book of Boba Fett, Ahsoka, and Rangers. So long as Filoni's riding herd on shows like these, I retain confidence that they'll feel appropriately Star Wars. Now that doesn't mean they'll be good, the various arcs of TCW were highly varied in quality and offered some real duds, and Rebels was a decidedly bleh show in the early going before gradually becoming more palatable.
    Oh, the team for the Mandalorian works, definitely. Or at least, it has so far. Here's hoping the future keeps being interesting.

    That said, the seven or so tv shows they promised does feel like an awful lot for one person to ride herd on. I wasn't a huge fan of either TCW or Rebels, which I realize is probably some kind of heresy, but the Mandalorian they're definitely not. Talent spread out over enough area can become diluted, and they have certainly suffered in cinema.

    Also, rushing the whole extended universe has been a point of failure for MANY properties. Everyone's trying to copy Marvel, but faster.

    Generally speaking, more than doubling workload all at one go usually results in failure. If you've done one show at a time, you *may* be able to handle two shows at a time, though it'll be a helluva adjustment. Try to do five, and you'll be over your head. This isn't just a movie thing, it shows up all over. People can grow, but there's a limit to what's a reasonable expectation.

    The MCU took its time getting to Avengers, and while it has an insanely ambitious slate planned out now...the scale has steadily grown. Star Wars, while well established, doesn't really have that continuity. It has a lot of projects that are separated by a lot of time, entirely different teams, etc.

    I'd feel a lot more comfortable if they were simply trying to add a second good show.

  12. - Top - End - #822
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    While I absolutely agree with your statement regarding Hollywood guessing....why on earth would Knives Out need a sequel? It's a glorious film, but it's basically a perfectly encapsulated movie. There doesn't seem to be any particular reason to make a sequel of it.
    Less of a sequel and more of another Detective Benoit Blanc movie. Which I am 100% on board with.
    Spoiler: Avatar by always-awesome Cuthalion
    Show
    Spoiler: Come down with fire
    Show
    Spoiler: Lift my spirit higher
    Show
    Spoiler: Someone's screaming my name
    Show
    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    We're from Europe, not a mirror dimension.

  13. - Top - End - #823
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Wyoming
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Except, of course, they're not allowed to be a nobody from nowhere any more. They've got to be related to like the same three people over and over again.

    The fans demand it.
    Fair point.

    But...Lucas did that to himself. Luke really wasn't a nobody, he was Vader's son. Though we need to tack on some non-movie material, Anakin wasn't a nobody, he was a secret experiment of a powerful sith. Rey wasn't a nobody, she's the grandaughter of Palpatine.

    Everyone we started off thinking was a nobody, turned out to really be the half-demon secret love child of Inuya... I mean I think you get where I'm going with this.

    It's both classic and lazy writing. And it can be done well. I don't think Star Wars ever did it particularly well, but it at least all came packaged in this amazing sci-fi soap the likes of which, at the time, there was very little of. The PT and the ST suffer from the fact that there's been a great deal of "good sci fi" since Star Wars. But neither the PT nor the ST raised the bar on the writing, only tried to make the "classic camp" more palatable by trying to make the PT more serious, and the ST more JJ Abrams-y.

    I really liked when Rey found out she was a nobody. It was damning to her because she wanted to be special but also freeing because unlike Kylo she wasn't burdened with the sins of the father.
    Last edited by False God; 2021-03-01 at 01:11 PM.
    Knowledge brings the sting of disillusionment, but the pain teaches perspective.
    "You know it's all fake right?"
    "...yeah, but it makes me feel better."

  14. - Top - End - #824
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by False God View Post
    Only every single trilogy.

    I mean, they went there in the OT.
    They went there in the PT.
    And they went there in the ST(Jakku, but same difference).

    They blew up the Death Star twice in the OT.
    They blew up all sorts of big things in the PT (little Anakin blowing up the droid control ship was totally a death-star analog).
    They blew up a super-duper Death Star in the ST, and then a really big ship, and then a whole fleet!

    I mean, I don't begrudge Star Wars for replaying a recipe that works. That's very Star Wars. They start out with a nobody from nowhere who becomes a somebody who blows up something huge, maybe more than once! Everyone goes home happy, the galaxy is saved, repeat in 20 years.
    Exactly. The creases are well-worn at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Except, of course, they're not allowed to be a nobody from nowhere any more. They've got to be related to like the same three people over and over again.

    The fans demand it.
    Yeah and it's sad. The trouble with fans is that often, they don't know what they really want until you give it to them, other than what has come before. Before it was announced, how many people were asking for WandaVision? Or Stranger Things? Guardians of the Galaxy? Avatar TLA? Taking risks on unproven IP is the lifeblood of new media.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  15. - Top - End - #825
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Clertar's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Ockham
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post


    Yeah and it's sad. The trouble with fans is that often, they don't know what they really want until you give it to them, other than what has come before. Before it was announced, how many people were asking for WandaVision? Or Stranger Things? Guardians of the Galaxy? Avatar TLA? Taking risks on unproven IP is the lifeblood of new media.
    100% on point. This "Dave Filloni is the new architect of Star Wars" thing has me worried because most of what we've seen from him has been bad or mediocre. Even if we just focus on the (complete) last season of The Clone Wars. His ratio of good vs bad Star Wars content is not better than the ratio of the sequel trilogy.

    A TV cartoon can afford that level of quality, but a 100 million dollar live TV series can't. Pawning the future of the franchise to following these stories will probably satisfy the alreaady convinced fans, but it really has to be top notch TV to be able to survive.
    Last edited by Clertar; 2021-03-01 at 04:21 PM.
    "Like the old proverb says, if one sees something not right, one must draw out his sword to intervene"

  16. - Top - End - #826
    Titan in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    On Paper
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    If anything, I'd say the Sequel Trilogy, and the Mandalorian prove that experimentation and different stories are ideal for Star Wars.
    The Sequel Trilogy flopped by trying to re-create the TYPE of story that Star Wars was (Rag tag rebellion vs evil space fascists with overwhelming firepower).

    The Mandalorian worked by firmly grounding itself in the Star Wars universe, with little adherence to the events, or type of story that "Star Wars" was.

    Star wars is almost more a highly specific subgenre, like "Noir Detective Story" or "Cold war spy thriller" than a Franchise. It's got powerful name recognition, and a strong aesthetic sensibility that makes it ideal for telling lots of different stories. People are more attracted to the Star Wars brand than any particular Star Wars plotline or style of storytelling. So you can do basically whatever you want so long as you match the worldbuilding and aesthetics of Star Wars.

    The Mandalorian isn't exactly hyper-original, but it stands strongly on it's own, and the Star Wars brand brought in viewers.

    That said, the key there is "Stands on it's own", and while I love Dave Filioni's work, season 2 of the Mandalorian makes me worried he's going to lead things in a vibe that is more comic-book than I'd appreciate. Heavy on interconnected continuity and crossovers rather than compelling stories.
    Last edited by BRC; 2021-03-01 at 05:02 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dsurion View Post
    I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.
    My Homebrew:Synchronized Swordsmen,Dual Daggers,The Doctor,The Preacher,The Brawler
    [/Center]

  17. - Top - End - #827
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Clertar View Post
    This "Dave Filloni is the new architect of Star Wars" thing has me worried because most of what we've seen from him has been bad or mediocre.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    The Sequel Trilogy flopped by trying to re-create the TYPE of story that Star Wars was
    J. J. Abrams takes beloved franchise and wrecks it but makes a tin of money, news at 11.

    Imean really, after Star Trek, was anyone actually surprised?
    Spoiler: Avatar by always-awesome Cuthalion
    Show
    Spoiler: Come down with fire
    Show
    Spoiler: Lift my spirit higher
    Show
    Spoiler: Someone's screaming my name
    Show
    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    We're from Europe, not a mirror dimension.

  18. - Top - End - #828
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2011

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Originally Posted by Peelee
    J. J. Abrams takes beloved franchise and wrecks it but makes a tin of money, news at 11.
    Just keep him out of Middle-Earth, is all I ask at this point.

  19. - Top - End - #829
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by False God View Post
    Fair point.

    But...Lucas did that to himself. Luke really wasn't a nobody, he was Vader's son. Though we need to tack on some non-movie material, Anakin wasn't a nobody, he was a secret experiment of a powerful sith. Rey wasn't a nobody, she's the grandaughter of Palpatine.

    Everyone we started off thinking was a nobody, turned out to really be the half-demon secret love child of Inuya... I mean I think you get where I'm going with this.

    It's both classic and lazy writing. And it can be done well. I don't think Star Wars ever did it particularly well, but it at least all came packaged in this amazing sci-fi soap the likes of which, at the time, there was very little of. The PT and the ST suffer from the fact that there's been a great deal of "good sci fi" since Star Wars. But neither the PT nor the ST raised the bar on the writing, only tried to make the "classic camp" more palatable by trying to make the PT more serious, and the ST more JJ Abrams-y.

    I really liked when Rey found out she was a nobody. It was damning to her because she wanted to be special but also freeing because unlike Kylo she wasn't burdened with the sins of the father.
    In all fairness to Rian Johnson, that was exactly where he was trying to go with Episode 8. He seems to have thought, and I agree, that there's an element of 'Force Aristocracy' in the GFFA, where specific families are the center of the universe because they are Force Sensitive (Skywalkers, Palpatines) and everyone else is Rude Mechanicals or extras in their story. He tried to tell a story in which the heroine is a simple no one from nowhere and where the Force is available to everyone, as seen with Broom Boy at the end. It's a world where ordinary people have power and meaning and destiny.

    I like the idea and I like the concept. It's a pity that the execution was so terrible.

    If I could go back in time and rewrite this, what I would want would be:

    1) Remove the Original Cast from the sequel trilogy and set it in another time period altogether -- either the far future or the distant past. IF you set it in the future, you can leave holocrons recorded by the original characters that can serve as plot points to the new ones. That way you don't have to elevate your new heroes by tarnishing the old ones, and their generation of war to save the galaxy means something. Let them buy a few decades or centuries of peace, not less than one generation.

    2) Keep one director through from start to finish with one unified vision.

    3) Give Rey a character arc. Don't simply start her off as all-powerful. Allow her to start as a promising candidate and become a badass superheroine over the course of the three movies, as in the OT. Give her weaknesses and flaws. Give her a Leia-like mentor if you want to make this about female empowerment so you don't have her under the wing of a male Jedi master. But allow her to be a nuanced character with both weaknesses and a character arc, don't simply start her off as superwoman.

    4) Flynn the former stormtrooper shouldn't be a joke.

    5) For pity's sake, bring in someone who understands military SF and tell a decent story for episode 8 rather than the ridiculous chase we got.

    6) Be consistent with your Aesops. If the admiral is going to chew out Poe for recklessness she can't turn around and do the same thing two scenes later.

    There are a lot of good ideas and potential here. But I'm reminded of a cook who took quality wasabi and quality ice cream and threw them all in a pot. The sum was far, far , less than the parts. Bad execution, as I said.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

    -Valery Legasov in Chernobyl

  20. - Top - End - #830
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tyndmyr's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Less of a sequel and more of another Detective Benoit Blanc movie. Which I am 100% on board with.
    Yknow...lets do it. I'm not sure what it's gonna be, but the first movie was really solid, and that earns some trust. I'll pony up a few bucks to watch a sequel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Yeah and it's sad. The trouble with fans is that often, they don't know what they really want until you give it to them, other than what has come before. Before it was announced, how many people were asking for WandaVision? Or Stranger Things? Guardians of the Galaxy? Avatar TLA? Taking risks on unproven IP is the lifeblood of new media.
    Well, that's the job of those who create entertainment for us. We can often tell when you're doing something wrong, and that would be useful feedback if solicited at the right point(sonic the hedgehog, for instance), but ultimately creating a story has to be more than paint by numbers.

    There's gotta be something new and spicy.

    Mandalorian is...honestly mostly about execution. A *lot* of the stuff in it isn't exceptionally new, it's simply taking classic tropes and executing them really well. Even the concept of space western is a fairly well trod path at this point. The protaganist has some new spicy stuff. Not seeing the face almost at all is definitely unusual. However, perhaps 90% of it is old stuff simply done very well.

    Gotta have both parts. Avoid the bad, add something new and good.

    It's a challenge, and it's definitely one that an awful lot of works don't manage to pull off.

    The low hanging fruit is, of course, the Thrawn trilogy. You get a story that's very Star Wars, and benefits greatly from all the existing lore, while also tossing in something that's new, at least to the folks just watching the movies. Sure, sure, you have the famous characters and stuff, but there's a lively plot going on. With some added showing instead of telling compared to the book, I think it could be made into a pretty great story, provided one was willing to scrap episodes 7-9.

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    4) Flynn the former stormtrooper shouldn't be a joke.
    For me, this was one of the biggest disappointments. That opening to Ep 7 was actually really good. A protagonist who is a Stormtrooper goin' traitor? That could be an amazing story.

    And then they just did pretty much nothing with him.

    Really a shame. I'd have loved to see that film instead of what we got.
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2021-03-02 at 11:00 AM.

  21. - Top - End - #831
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    The low hanging fruit is, of course, the Thrawn trilogy. You get a story that's very Star Wars, and benefits greatly from all the existing lore, while also tossing in something that's new, at least to the folks just watching the movies. Sure, sure, you have the famous characters and stuff, but there's a lively plot going on. With some added showing instead of telling compared to the book, I think it could be made into a pretty great story, provided one was willing to scrap episodes 7-9.
    They wouldn't have to scrap the ST to make this happen. The Thrawn Trilogy takes place 5 years after the battle of Endor, while the ST takes place some 15 to 30 years later. Easy enough to shoehorn in the TT in the time between the two and many of the story beats from the Thrawn Trilogy (Luke's ill-fated attempt at a Jedi Academy, Luke and Han's relationship) follow naturally into the ST, or can be made to, with minimal retconning. And if there are pieces that don't quite fit in the ST, well, that's what Special Editions are for!

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

    -Valery Legasov in Chernobyl

  22. - Top - End - #832
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Fyraltari's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Just keep him out of Middle-Earth, is all I ask at this point.
    1) Oh god no.
    2) Is Tom Bombadil the original mystery box?
    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    1) Remove the Original Cast from the sequel trilogy and set it in another time period altogether -- either the far future or the distant past. IF you set it in the future, you can leave holocrons recorded by the original characters that can serve as plot points to the new ones. That way you don't have to elevate your new heroes by tarnishing the old ones, and their generation of war to save the galaxy means something. Let them buy a few decades or centuries of peace, not less than one generation.
    You don't have to tarnish the old heroes to elevate the new ones, all that was needed was for the new generation to protect what the old one had built: basically, don't have the New Republic fall (nor Sidious come back).

    3) Give Rey a character arc. Don't simply start her off as all-powerful. Allow her to start as a promising candidate and become a badass superheroine over the course of the three movies, as in the OT. Give her weaknesses and flaws. Give her a Leia-like mentor if you want to make this about female empowerment so you don't have her under the wing of a male Jedi master. But allow her to be a nuanced character with both weaknesses and a character arc, don't simply start her off as superwoman.
    That's not on Johnson, Abrams was the one who wanted to have her arc all in the first movie.

    4) Flynn the former stormtrooper shouldn't be a joke.
    Finn.
    5) For pity's sake, bring in someone who understands military SF and tell a decent story for episode 8 rather than the ridiculous chase we got.
    Despite the name, Star Wars is as far from military Science-fiction as Science-Fiction gets. I mean, the main characters use mêlée weapons. Aesthetic definitely prevails against tactics there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    For me, this was one of the biggest disappointments. That opening to Ep 7 was actually really good. A protagonist who is a Stormtrooper goin' traitor? That could be an amazing story.

    And then they just did pretty much nothing with him.

    Really a shame. I'd have loved to see that film instead of what we got.
    Maybe look into Kyle Katarn from the old EU? I'm not sure how much that part of his character was touched on in the games he was created for (I've only played the last two and it doesn't come up) but he's in books and stuff too.
    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    the story beats from the Thrawn Trilogy (Luke's ill-fated attempt at a Jedi Academy
    That's not in the Thrawn Trilogy, he still tries to get more training in these books. Are you thinking of something else?
    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    Gehm's corollary to Clarke's Third Law



    Mage avatar by smutmulch.

    Forum Wisdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  23. - Top - End - #833
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    The low hanging fruit is, of course, the Thrawn trilogy. You get a story that's very Star Wars, and benefits greatly from all the existing lore, while also tossing in something that's new, at least to the folks just watching the movies. Sure, sure, you have the famous characters and stuff, but there's a lively plot going on. With some added showing instead of telling compared to the book, I think it could be made into a pretty great story, provided one was willing to scrap episodes 7-9.
    And populate an entire movie trilogy with ghoulish CGI necromancy because the actual actors are 40 years older and/or dead not 5 years older.


    You could do something like a Thrawn trilogy, but I don't think the actual character was all that worth getting worked up over. (He never really seemed to have a motivation that aligned with his actions, we never really got a reason why he was so dedicated to fighting for the Empire that he would try to bring it back, and later backstory has made that even less of a thing since his alliance with the Empire was born of pragmatism).

    I would probably do it with a story about a brilliant rebel general who sees the chaos that the fall of the Empire brought about and the New Republic's unable to really control it in the face of the Hutts and the Corporate Sector and so on and who tries to set himself up as a caesar type dictator because he believes he's the only one smart enough to fix it all.

    But you would still probably need to undo all the JJ to have a movie where the New Republic meaningfully existed and didn't get 100% blown up off screen in one scene.
    Last edited by GloatingSwine; 2021-03-02 at 12:21 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #834
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post

    That's not in the Thrawn Trilogy, he still tries to get more training in these books. Are you thinking of something else?
    I'm thinking of the two successor books: Spectre of the Past and Vision of the Future, both by Tim Zahn. I forget they weren't in the original TTT but they are the same characters in the same universe by the same author. The duology is a direct successor. Luke is a Jedi Master who tried -- and failed -- to teach Jedi students. As said, it didn't end well.

    Spoiler
    Show

    Setting up the original academy at the old Rebel Base on Yavin IV, which turned out to be inside an abandoned Sith Temple, was not the smartest move.


    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

    -Valery Legasov in Chernobyl

  25. - Top - End - #835
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tyndmyr's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Maybe look into Kyle Katarn from the old EU? I'm not sure how much that part of his character was touched on in the games he was created for (I've only played the last two and it doesn't come up) but he's in books and stuff too.
    I played the Jedi Knight games, and while they were fun, I honestly had no idea he was a former storm trooper, interesting!

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    And populate an entire movie trilogy with ghoulish CGI necromancy because the actual actors are 40 years older and/or dead not 5 years older.
    Or we could just recast them. Hell, they recast a few folks younger for Solo, and while that movie was awful, it wasn't really a casting issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    You could do something like a Thrawn trilogy, but I don't think the actual character was all that worth getting worked up over. (He never really seemed to have a motivation that aligned with his actions, we never really got a reason why he was so dedicated to fighting for the Empire that he would try to bring it back, and later backstory has made that even less of a thing since his alliance with the Empire was born of pragmatism).
    The idea was cool, as with Boba Fett. You've got the striking image, and the idea of someone who manages things by being extremely intelligent and competent.

    Yeah, I'm not stuck on the idea of retaining literally every element from all the books, but I think there's enough there to make for a fun story.

    It's also just easier to justify Imperial resistance continuing post death star and still being a problem a few years later than a Surprise Second Empire three decades after. Some aftershocks from a galactic civil war are to be expected.

    However, the new republic getting essentially complete control and then losing it due to basically incompetence feels kinda off, yknow?

  26. - Top - End - #836
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    You could do something like a Thrawn trilogy, but I don't think the actual character was all that worth getting worked up over. (He never really seemed to have a motivation that aligned with his actions, we never really got a reason why he was so dedicated to fighting for the Empire that he would try to bring it back, and later backstory has made that even less of a thing since his alliance with the Empire was born of pragmatism).
    I would say that follows logically from the ST; Left to themselves, the New Republic can't even protect itself from a minor splinter group in the back end of nowhere, let alone the far more serious dangers lurking in the Unknown Reaches. Why in the heck would Thrawn want to ally with them, especially since their time to remain in power is probably measured in years, not decades?


    I think this is one of my largest complaints about the entire franchise: The New Republic is not workable . Left to itself, it will be subverted by some dark side force user and converted into an Empire in hardly any time at all. Ordinary people have very little chance against someone who can read minds and employ Jedi Mind tricks. Even if they aren't a gifted politician themselves, they can partner with one or use one as a front.

    The only reason the New Republic exists at all is because Heroes keep stepping in to bail them out. I look at that as using the handles on a cardiac patient who is dead. If the heart won't beat on its own however many times you apply the panels, if you can't let it run on its own for more than a few seconds without having to save their lives, it's time to give it up and call in the burial detail.

    The only reason the Old Republic could make it work was because they had the original Jedi council to protect against such dark siders. That was the product of many generations of effort. Rebuilding a stable Jedi Council when a large percentage of your students will go dark at their first taste of Force Power is not something that is done in a year. Until such a council is in place the Galaxy is going to NEED to be under the tutelage or protection of a force user or small group of force users who can keep the whole thing from running off the rails until a proper Jedi Order can provide stability again. Which means, in short, an Empire.

    So yes, I can well imagine why Thrawn would want to work for and ally with a stable Empire that, though evil, at least knew how to be organized and could survive for more than a year unaided than to ally with a Republic which needs a Resistance to protect it from an isolated group of holdouts in the Outer Rim.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

    -Valery Legasov in Chernobyl

  27. - Top - End - #837
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    I'm thinking of the two successor books: Spectre of the Past and Vision of the Future, both by Tim Zahn. I forget they weren't in the original TTT but they are the same characters in the same universe by the same author. The duology is a direct successor. Luke is a Jedi Master who tried -- and failed -- to teach Jedi students. As said, it didn't end well.

    Spoiler
    Show

    Setting up the original academy at the old Rebel Base on Yavin IV, which turned out to be inside an abandoned Sith Temple, was not the smartest move.


    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Nope, you're thinking of the Jedi Academy Trilogy by Kevin J. Anderson. Admiral Daala, not Thrawn, is in that one.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-03-02 at 01:10 PM.
    Spoiler: Avatar by always-awesome Cuthalion
    Show
    Spoiler: Come down with fire
    Show
    Spoiler: Lift my spirit higher
    Show
    Spoiler: Someone's screaming my name
    Show
    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    We're from Europe, not a mirror dimension.

  28. - Top - End - #838
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Nope, you're thinking of the Jedi Academy Trilogy by Kevin J. Anderson. Admiral Daala, not Thrawn, is in that one.
    The Jedi Academy Trilogy is referenced in the duology and the events in it are discussed; they are in the same timeline. The only reason I know anything about the events of the Jedi Academy trilogy is because the events in them are referenced in the duology, which I did read.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

    -Valery Legasov in Chernobyl

  29. - Top - End - #839
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    The Jedi Academy Trilogy is referenced in the duology and the events in it are discussed; they are in the same timeline. The only reason I know anything about the events of the Jedi Academy trilogy is because the events in them are referenced in the duology, which I did read.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Thrawn duology happens 8 years after Jedi Academy trilogy. Assuming that by "in the same timeline" you mean "concurrently", since the standard meaning would be odd since all Legends are in the same timeline.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-03-02 at 04:30 PM.
    Spoiler: Avatar by always-awesome Cuthalion
    Show
    Spoiler: Come down with fire
    Show
    Spoiler: Lift my spirit higher
    Show
    Spoiler: Someone's screaming my name
    Show
    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    We're from Europe, not a mirror dimension.

  30. - Top - End - #840
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Thrawn duology happens 8 years after Jedi Academy trilogy. Assuming that by "in the same timeline" you mean "concurrently", since the standard meaning would be odd since all Legends are in the same timeline.
    I mean that the Duology refers to events from the Jedi Academy trilogy as events in the past tense. The one set of books refers to the other. Again, that's how I know about events in the Jedi Academy trilogy, since I didn't read those specific books but did read others which take their storylines for granted.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

    -Valery Legasov in Chernobyl

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •